This is mainly a question (suggestion?) to the moderators, but if anyone else feels like giving an opinion then that’s fine by me :) I’m putting it here as this is probably the most looked at thread by all moderators :) If it’s moved please give me simple instructions on how to find it again :)
I found “Computers for Dummies” difficult! :D

There are a large number of search possibilities to the multitude of threads in the Cove and I find many of them rather confusing. Maybe it’s because I’m not American, or it could be that I’m just not as familiar with computers as the majority seem to be in here. I’ll give an example. I stumbled across a thread a few days ago and saw some things that interested me. After a couple of days of mulling things over, I decided I had something to write in this thread. Don’t misunderstand, it isn’t life or death if I don’t find the thread again, it’s the “principle”. In “my” list of suggestions for a new search mode I’d have gone in under Measurement to find the thread that eludes me. Isn’t there a list of thread titles so that possible relevant threads can easily be found? I can see that I’m not the only one that tries to use (misuse?) the forum site for newcomers as a messenger delivery forum when I’m not sure “where to go”.

I detest when people criticize without offering an alternative, so here's my contribution :)

A keyword (or as few as possible) to indicate the scope or contents of thread. I’ll give a few examples (in no particular order or priority) to show what I mean:

1. ISO certification (subheadings as used below could be relevant)

Starting up
Almost finished
Good and bad experiences
2. Measurement

3. Workshop measurement equipment (use and calibration)
4. Process control (SPC)
5. Production companies and quality issues
Machine industry
Medical industry
Aerospace industry
Automotive industry
6. New thread suggestions

For finding out if others are interested in the same subject before proceeding to start a new thread. There are 50 pages of thread lists that respond to the search word “quality”. Even narrowing it down by adding more keywords might unintentionally eliminate the most relevant existing one.
7. Supplying to large organizations (i.e. military)
8. Quality and environment

I can keep on going, but the secret is to limit it to what can preferably be on one page. I’ll bet there are others much better at that than me. I tend to suffer from writing diarrhoea – when I get started I don’t know when to stop.

“Miracles can be done quickly, the impossible takes a little longer”. I’ve no idea as to who originally said this but I’ve always liked it.

:modcop:NOTE: This post was moved from the introduction thread. A redirect was left in the introduction thread, and sent to the original poster.

Actually, your predicament is common. Hence, that is why Marc is asking us about adding tags to the threads. When everyone are in looking at threads, go ahead and add relevant tags for them.

Once we have tags assigned to most of the threads, they will be much easier to organize, like you stated.

Also, I believe you can add threads to your favorite list. So, if you're in surfing and see something you think you might like, go ahead and add it. You can always remove it later.

For those who are familiar with current internet usage, tags combined with searching are an efficient answer to the problem of finding (or re-finding) a particular thread, or finding a thread on a particular topic.

That's internal searchability.

The tag approach also greatly enhances the external searchability, and thus discoverability, of the Cove as a resource for potential new participants.

The value of individual participation here is to some extent a function of the overall participation-numbers. The more people are here, the more likely it is that even a complicated or high-expertise-level question will be helpfully answered. Thus enhanced external searchability is highly desirable.

So, tag your threads. :)

So guys, to help the terminally computer challenged, like myself, you just go down below the posts to the box that says tags, and then click on the edit to add a tag? (where I come from tagging was using a can (or more) of spray paint to leave some visual reminder that you had been somewhere):notme:

So guys, to help the terminally computer challenged, like myself, you just go down below the posts to the box that says tags, and then click on the edit to add a tag?

Yes. I just added the tag "tags" to the list. It's easy. :D

(where I come from tagging was using a can (or more) of spray paint to leave some visual reminder that you had been somewhere):notme:

Heh. Brush-marker work is better looking. :cool:

Until you get into multicolor art projects, of course.

If you need to find/track a particular thread, you can "subscribe" to it using the menu Thead Tools->Subscribe to this thread. When you subscribe, you can be notified of any new posts to that thread.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10692

You can find the subscribed threads through your User Control Panel (UserCP).

:modcop:NOTE: This post was moved from the introduction thread. A redirect was left in the introduction thread, and sent to the original poster.Note to Gordon - Please do not use the Introductions thread to start new topics. It is not a matter of whether someone will see a thread because of the thread it is in. All new posts are listed and monitored.

I know Wes and others have asked you not to take the introductions thread 'off topic', so....

I know most of you (moderators) must feel I'm just trying to be "difficult", but it really isn't the case. I'll add a :) to show that I am in a very good mood. Anyway, I give a solemn oath that I'll stay out of the introduction thread, at least as far as giving off-topic remarks is concerned.
My "gift" (if it can be called that) is to find simple solutions to (measurement) problems that other find difficult or complicated. It's probably my warped brain function that makes (sorry, made) me do some things that I shouldn't actually do.
Anyway, bottom line, no more off-topic messages from me in the introduction thread :)
I may shock a few with my next observation, but I've often said to companies that if they want an easy solution to a problem then the most lazy person is probably the best bet. Please apply the Pareto Principle to that :) I'd describe myself as lazy - just ask my wife - but many don't agree :D

I know most of you (moderators) must feel I'm just trying to be "difficult", but it really isn't the case. I'll add a :) to show that I am in a very good mood. Anyway, I give a solemn oath that I'll stay out of the introduction thread, at least as far as giving off-topic remarks is concerned.

Gordon,

The Moderators are just trying to be good and friendly "traffic cops" and regulate/direct the tremendous flow of new threads and posts to the correct locations for the benefit of all Fellow Covers who contribute and participate.

This Forum is the largest of its kind in the world, and to avoid confusion, we're trying to guide and coach our Covers in the "right" direction. We try do this to the best of our knowledge without preconceived notions or personal bias. I am sure you'll understand.

Thank you Gordon.

Stijloor.

I hesitate to write this, as some of it is very much :topic: and quite blunt, but it has reached 'Critical Mass' (for lack of a better word).

This is mainly a question (suggestion?) to the moderators, but if anyone else feels like giving an opinion then that’s fine by me :) I’m putting it here as this is probably the most looked at thread by all moderators :) If it’s moved please give me simple instructions on how to find it again :)
I found “Computers for Dummies” difficult! :D Some of the folks here have already given you some of the advice I'm giving here.

If you post an off topic post in a thread and it is moved, you probably won't easily find it because it is moved from the original thread and there is no marker unless the person moving the post out of the thread puts in a link or PMs the person. Now, this may sound easy, and it is, but its time consuming and is rather infrequent in the Introductions' thread. When a person does put an off topic post in an existing thread, usually the moderator who moves it notifies the original poster of the move in a PM, or a link is put in the thread (sometimes both). This is relatively standard procedure and none of us minds doing this now and again.

However, you have been doing this a lot lately with the Introductions thread thinking, for whatever reason, it will be 'seen' there and not elsewhere. A post/new thread will be seen no matter what forum or existing thread you post in. In this case, you should have taken a minute and looked through the list of forums and started a new thread in the appropriate forum. As you can see, there is a forum specifically for posts like this (Suggestions) which is where the moderator moved it. If you are having problems with where to post (the forum names {categorization}), print out the Main Forum Listing and keep it handy.

By continually using the 'Introductions' thread to start a post like this is making 'work' for moderators. It is not appreciated. You have been visiting long enough now, and enough people have pointed this out to you, that I would hope in the future you will start a New Thread rather than to 'go off topic' in an existing discussion thread. In the future your post will probably just be deleted because you should know better by now.

There are a large number of search possibilities to the multitude of threads in the Cove and I find many of them rather confusing. Maybe it’s because I’m not American, It has nothing to do with nationality, especially if you can read and write English (as you apparently do quite well). It is a software program. Like any software program you have to learn to use it.

We have taken a lot of time and put in a lot of effort to help 'spoon feed' people on how to use the software. Please read the FAQ (http://elsmar.com/Forums/faq.php) and take some time to look through Instructions --> How To Use the Forum Software (http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86) forum.

In this case you are talking about using the various ways to Search for something. Searching is an art, I will admit. But in essence, if you go to the Main Forum Search page (http://elsmar.com/Forums/search.php), you should be able to find just about anything here. That said, if you're not 'naturally' good at searching, there is little anyone can do to help you - You need to understand it takes time to get 'good' at something. It takes time to understand how a specific software program works. It takes time to learn how to Search, even on Google, and every search engine is different to some degree which makes being a Search Expert all the more difficult.

or it could be that I’m just not as familiar with computers It an issue of using a specific software, not using a computer in general.

as the majority seem to be in here. I’ll give an example. I stumbled across a thread a few days ago and saw some things that interested me. After a couple of days of mulling things over, I decided I had something to write in this thread. Don’t misunderstand, it isn’t life or death if I don’t find the thread again, it’s the “principle”. If you had taken some time to read through the FAQ and forum Instructions, this would not be an issue. You just Subscribe to a thread you want to keep current with. If you decide you no longer want to follow that thread you can Unsubscribe at the same menu (it will change to 'Unsubscribe' from 'Subscribe' when you are already subscribed to the thread).

See: Subscriptions - How to keep up with New Posts in the forums? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8934) in the Instructions --> How To Use the Forum Software (http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86) forum.

Also read this 'FAQ' page (http://elsmar.com/Forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_subscriptions).

In “my” list of suggestions for a new search mode You're not really suggesting a new search 'mode'. You are suggesting changing the current forum categorization. We are working on better categorization all the time. See: Proposed subforum: Quality Systems for Hospitals & Healthcare Providers (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=30031) as a current example. If you take a few minutes and scroll through the Main Forum Page you will see the existing categorization. I suggest that you take your categorization suggestions and build upon the existing structure remembering you can become too 'granular' (too specific). Very few threads are that specific by the time a few responses come in, not to mention the scope of the post which the person starts the new thread with.

I’d have gone in under Measurement to find the thread that eludes me. Isn’t there a list of thread titles so that possible relevant threads can easily be found? If you go to the Main Forum SEARCH page you have the option to search thread titles only:

http://elsmar.com/jpg/Search Titles only.jpg

NOTE: Thread Prefixes is new. I only have them in a couple of forums (this forum is an example) as of this writing. I am watching to see how they're used, and I'm thinking of the effect on search engines as well because SEO is very important to me. I may deploy them more in the future, but at the same time I'm trying to keep the complexity level down here. Unless you KNOW there is a specific thread prefix, choose Any Prefix (this is the Default setting).

You can also choose a forum, or a set of forums (rather than searching all forums), to further narrow your Search:

http://elsmar.com/jpg/Search Specific Forums.jpg

You haven't taken much time to go through the FAQ and 'How To' threads in the 'Instructions' forum, or to explore options available on pages.

I can see that I’m not the only one that tries to use (misuse?) the forum site for newcomers as a messenger delivery forum when I’m not sure “where to go”. I'm assuming you mean the Introduce yourself thread when you say: "...forum site for newcomers as a messenger delivery forum...". It is a discussion thread, not a forum. Usually they are people who do not speak English or are very new here, and rarely do they try to carry on a conversation there that is off topic. There is some base chatter now and again ("Hey, I'm from XXXX, too") and stuff like that. But other than that it is almost always someone who does not read or write English very well or someone who is very new to the site or to forum software in general. And if you look through some of the thread pages, you will notice you are probably the first person in all the years the forum has been here to continually use that thread to start off topic posts, even after being asked not to. That is part of the issue which arose between you and Wes. Wes is a bit less tolerant than some of us are, but even we have our frustration limits.

I detest when people criticize without offering an alternative, so here's my contribution :)

A keyword (or as few as possible) to indicate the scope or contents of thread. As much as I hate to sound simplistic, that is what the thread title is for and why titling a thread is important. I have gone out of my way to tell people about the importance of thread titles. I spend a couple hours every day going through threads and retitling those that are vague, and as I point out elsewhere in this post, there are several moderators who help with retitling threads to make their content as evident as we can.

You defeat the purpose when you start a post like you have been doing in an existing discussion thread. Your post takes on the title of the discussion thread it is in, for one thing. The other, as has been mentioned, is you force a moderator or me to move the post to start a new thread. Of course, we have to retitle it as well.

I’ll give a few examples (in no particular order or priority) to show what I mean:

1. ISO certification (subheadings as used below could be relevant)

Starting up
Almost finished
Good and bad experiences
2. Measurement

3. Workshop measurement equipment (use and calibration)
4. Process control (SPC)
5. Production companies and quality issues
Machine industry
Medical industry
Aerospace industry
Automotive industry Those are categorization suggestions.

6. New thread suggestions For finding out if others are interested in the same subject before proceeding to start a new thread. This is a very old 'problem. People ask the same questions time and again. That is the nature of a forum. People come in and either don't want to take the time to Search for existing threads, or are simply not good at Searching. We have discussed this MANY times over the years. There is simply no way to keep some people from starting a New Thread about something that has been discussed, often numerous times, in various discussion threads.

There are 50 pages of thread lists that respond to the search word “quality”. Even narrowing it down by adding more keywords might unintentionally eliminate the most relevant existing one. You're going to find the same issue even with Google. You will never (well, not in the foreseeable future) be able to search for something and not "...unintentionally eliminate the most relevant existing one...". How does the software know what is most applicable to you, the individual? It can't and doesn't. That's why Google is as famous and popular as it is. It does a relatively good job. Google (and all search engines) TRY to figure out what you're looking for from the key words and modifiers you input, but they cannot read your mind. But like I say, even with Google you cannot expect to find every relevant web page, nor can you expect it to not "...unintentionally eliminate the most relevant existing one...". This is why I say Searching is an art. Some people are very good at searching. Some people are not.

7. Supplying to large organizations (i.e. military)
8. Quality and environment

I can keep on going, but the secret is to limit it to what can preferably be on one page. I’ll bet there are others much better at that than me. I tend to suffer from writing diarrhoea – when I get started I don’t know when to stop.

“Miracles can be done quickly, the impossible takes a little longer”. I’ve no idea as to who originally said this but I’ve always liked it. I'm confused myself now, other than that to some degree you are suggesting we significantly change the current forum categorization and make it much more granular.

We have, over the years, attempted to categorize things the best we can. Most of what you have suggested has been done, but not to the degree you are expecting. We have had many discussion on categorization over the years and what we currently have it pretty good, in my opinion.

In addition, there are limitations to any software package. I mention this because there are already quite a few ways to find specific information here, but it does not have the capabilities to do some of the intricate sub-categorization you suggest.

And - This is a relatively small forum and the moderators donate their time. The forum is not significantly profitable. It is nice to have as a resource, but it is not a business. That said, there are no paid employees. Moderators donate their time (my many Thanks!). I will make you this offer - Give me US$500,000 in capitalization and I'll hire some people and we can really go through and 'get things organized'.

At this point I think you really need to look through the forums and software and try to figure out how it works. There are limitations. It is purchased software.

While your suggestion does have merit, there is also a limit on how far you can define something like a thread. The thread Title is very important, but even there many threads could easily fit in more than one forum and even a thread title doesn't keep the content easily categorized as content can and does vary. If every thread was readily able to be categorized (as per the forum listing) that would be nice. But, threads are typically broad enough in content that they could be put in more than one forum. Tags help a lot, I believe, but getting people to Tag threads is difficult. Every day I spend at least an hour tagging threads. Some days it's more like 2 hours or more to retitle threads (a lot less time than in the past because there are a few moderators helping out with that effort), and to put Tags on threads.

If anything, thread Tags can help with categorization, which other have mentioned in this thread. Tags are a relatively new vBulletin 'feature' so most of the threads aren't categorized with tags. It would take weeks for someone to try to go back through all the threads here and tag them. But, over time, more and more threads will be tagged.

I know most of you (moderators) must feel I'm just trying to be "difficult", Not really.

but it really isn't the case. I'll add a :) to show that I am in a very good mood. Anyway, I give a solemn oath that I'll stay out of the introduction thread, at least as far as giving off-topic remarks is concerned. I would hope so.

It's probably my warped brain function that makes (sorry, made) me do some things that I shouldn't actually do. Nope - It's just that you're not reading, thinking and paying attention. It's the old "If you would only listen..." but in this case it's "If you would only READ..." Your brain isn't making you do something you shouldn't. You were asked not to post totally off topic posts in an existing discussion thread. You ignored the request that you not do that. Blaming a "warped brain function" is silly, to say the least. You were asked not to do it, you essentially told the people who asked you not to do it to 'go to heck' by continuing to do it. You went ahead and did it anyway. That's not a "warped brain function". It's simply being rude by ignoring the request as if you are above abiding by the requests of the moderator and the general rules of this forum.

Anyway, bottom line, no more off-topic messages from me in the introduction thread :) No problem. In the future they will simply be deleted as 'off topic'. We don't have the time or desire to keep asking you not to post off topic in any existing discussion thread, and we're tired of moving such posts considering your history of ignoring our requests that you not post off topic posts in existing discussion threads.

I may shock a few with my next observation, but I've often said to companies that if they want an easy solution to a problem then the most lazy person is probably the best bet. Please apply the Pareto Principle to that :) I'd describe myself as lazy - just ask my wife - but many don't agree :D You will have problems here (as has been evident) in that case. The moderators and I will help anyone out. But, after a while it wears thin. You will find people will stop trying to help you. If you're lazy, that's your problem, not ours. We have enough to do here keeping everything running and such without having to spoon feed you every step of the way.

Marc,

Thank you for this very detailed and elaborate response. :applause: :applause:

You must be a very patient person...;)

I am sure that it will help other Covers too. :agree1:

Stijloor.

Wow! The difference between Marc and me is one word - 'PASSION' but it makes a world of difference. I started to reply to this thread and along the same lines as Marc but gave up after two pages and thirty minutes later.

In case you are interested to know, this post is the result of sacrificing more than 3 hours of sleep from Marc's part. Yes, it took that much time and effort to write, vet, think, rewrite and rephrase so that what is written may be palatable to all (I remember that he used a wrong word in a recent post and it was noted and kind of taken as an offense).

Visiting the Cove is like visiting Marc's home and we really should give more consideration to our very kind and thoughtful host. I am glad that all/almost every body observed this good practice.

Wow! Great post, Marc.

I applaud your patience!