My boss wants me to do a document flow as well as a data flow chart for our department. Does anyone know where I can get a beginner's description of the symbols and so on? Many Thanks. Please reply to:
humble@nospambestweb.net (drop the nospam)before sending.

I did a search here in the forums for Flow Chart and got over 40 matches including http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=153

Please don't beat me for saying this, but WORD does have a set of flow chart symbols that you can use. Alternatively, other programs you're running will also have these described synbols.

Create your own standard set of symbols if need be, because there is simply no consistency in the usage of symbols.

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I haven't explored the symbols in Word, but now that you mention it I know Powerpoint has a whole bunch of symbols under its AutoSymbols menu. In the Mac version as you 'mouse-over' each symbol in the flow charting pallet its description (such as 'decision' for the diamond) shows in a small box.

do yourself a favor...pick up a copy of the standard version of VISIO...its reasonable and dead easy, self explanatory...all drag and drop...don't bother with the professional version...it gets into technical stuff and schematics, etc.
Got my 10 year old grandson doing them in 5 minutes....seriously.

I have Smartdraw www.smartdraw.com (http://www.smartdraw.com) - it does everything Visio does and more. Integrates with Office as well. Cheaper than Visio. $49 bucks for the sdtandard and $100 bucks for the 'professional' version. All flow chart programs are easy to use any more and Smartdraw is no exception.

On the other hand, I typically use Powerpoint for flow charts. Normally I simply don't need all the bells and whistles Smartdraw has. PP has everything you need as well.

Smartdraw and Visio are for when you really want to get into details like linking files and such.

cool....I had not heard of smartdraw before.... I don't typically use the bells and whistles...but Visio does link to MS office, so it has served me well....I tend to keep things simple. But i must boast I have gotten better, and on a rare occassion have linked photos and instruction video (AVI) to the visio charts and other procedure/form references. I never thought of using Power Point for flow charts....although I have for org charts??? probably cause I have been using Visio longer than Power Point?

I got the VISIO demo for $1.55 S/H. Many of my clients us it so I figured I'd eventually buy it. Marc, do you know if a flow chart from smartdraw get saved into visio?

I've used the project managment tool in VISIO(Gantt chart) successfully as well.

> ...but Visio does link to MS office...
SmartDraw does also.

> I tend to keep things simple. But i must boast I have gotten better, and on a
> rare occassion have linked photos and instruction video (AVI) to the visio
> charts and other procedure/form references.
My only comment here is to say make sure you do not end up 'assuming' that your client will have the same talent in-house to maintain the system links, etc. after you're gone. This often becomes an knowledge issue.

As an example -- I have kept this web site simple. Oh, I have played with videos and sounds but found that the simple, no-frames, no-frills html allows just about everyone access. I can put in shockwave baubles and such but as complexity increases so does maintenance time/knowledge requirements -- not to mention you start screening certain people out who simply don't want to have to install shockwave to view the site. This said, the main issue as it regards this topic is that simplicity can save a bundle in maintenance and knowledge costs. Powerpoint is in all the office packages, I think, except maybe the personal edition or whatever they call it while Visio is an extra cost. Powerpoint is simple to use.

> I got the VISIO demo for $1.55 S/H.
The hook. What does the full version cost?

> ...do you know if a flow chart from smartdraw get saved into...
Smartdraw imports visio files (individually or BATCH) but doesn't export them. It does export about everything else - you can export directly as pdf, as bitmap, as Micrografix, as a windows meta file --- there are about 10 or more (never really counted, but there's a bunch) export formats.

As I say, I typically only use powerpoint as it does what I need. In my opinion, too many people set up overly complex systems of links and such. I've ended up helping several companies recover after a complex system was devised by another consultant that were maintenance nightmares.

And it's not always consultants. One client was told by their registrar (in the interview prior to the company hiring the registrar) that they had to have a document control software package as a minimum to comply with ISO 9001. Of course, Visio was 'sanctioned' by the registrar for process/systems maps.

I go on here about this issue because I think too many companies make their systems (especially document related systems) overly complex and many, early on, are talked into complex systems with great talk about 'software solutions' which are sold as a 'golden bullet' solution to things like document control.

It all goes back to KISS.

Originally posted by Marc Smith:
>
> I got the VISIO demo for $1.55 S/H.
The hook. What does the full version cost?
.

Full version is $120-$150 I think - waiting for my 60 days to expire! I'm not sold on it yet, but with several clients using it, it'll pay for itself!

I've also seen over complicated systems. One had imported stuff all over the place - excel imports because the person didn't know about Word - tables, then the rev of the excel sheet and word base doc have to match....a real nightmare for someone coming into it, altho it made sense to the person who created it.

You also have to figure in the 'per seat' cost. Visio can get pretty expensive for a company. One copy may only be say $120 but if every user has to have a copy, or if 20 users have to have copies (you get the idea) you end up talking real money. That's how I was turned on to SmartDraw by a client. They didn't like the per seat cost of Visio and Microsofts myriad provisios.

I don't know if Dave uses word for flow charts, but I will admit that I use it to develop simple quick flow charts. If you bring up the Drawing Toolbar you will have access to flow charts symbols and meanings and it has the capability of inserting the proper connecting lines and arrows.

I don't use it for detailed process flows (I use MPACT) but as a down and dirty method it works fine.

ASD...

you are right Marc it could end up a nightmare...it has to be simple, it was the client that coaxed me into the links, so they could handle it.

I get around the per seat stuff by having everything in pdf format on the server, so the sites are adobe reader. Only a choice few have the software to create/change the FC....but then that depends on the company and who does what...if I had found smartdraw before i invested in the latest VISIO package, i'd be using that...sure will keep that in mind for future clients

While we're on the subject of flowcharts---

The new Quality magazine just came in with an article on flowcharting in which they're saying that ISO9001:2000 requires that business processes be flowcharted. I can understand it being desireable, but required?

I'm still working off the DIS version and don't see the word 'flowchart' anywhere. What's the deal here? Are they actually saying that in their opinion flowcharts are the only reasonable way to go, or are they saying that I've got to go back through a ton of procedures and flowchart them? That's a problem in a company culture that gets cross-eyed when a flowchart has more that six elements in it.

I appreciate any information that might help me understand the actual requirements.

Thanks.

Alf

Originally posted by Alf Gulford:

....new Quality magazine just came in with an article on flowcharting in which they're saying that ISO9001:2000 requires that business processes be flowcharted. I can understand it being desireable, but required?

Let's continue the Flow Charting 'requirement' discussion in http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2526 This merits a focused discussion!

We have tried various methods for flowcharting our business processes and have found that it is much easier to use Flowcharter 2000 marketed by Micrografx. Check their website on www.micrografx.com (http://www.micrografx.com) or alternatively email me for a contact who I use.

Regards

Firstly, we also use Micrografx Flowcharter ourselves. It is simple to use and works very well with the microsoft office suite of products.

As for the Standard demanding flowcharts, well, I wouldn't go that far, but here is a simple interpretation.

What we have done is map a one page flowchart of our processes. This does not inlcude minor processes but that doesn't make it dis-jointed either - just clearer. The processes then show the end user the inter-relationship between each of our processes. Our Auditor was quite accepting of this method.

On the other hand you may also want to consider having a flow chart within your current procedures, or completely changing the text to a flow chart. If so, ensure that you include links to other processes. This is also a good way to ensure that you cover the inter-relationship between processes.

In my opinion, just concentrate on your end user. What do they want or need to get the job done? Sometimes we get so focussed on 'the Standard' that we seem to forget about who we were creating the documents for in the first place.

[This message has been edited by Greg Mack (edited 10 February 2001).]