We have been ISO certified since 1997 and are in the midst of AS9100 certification. We do everything pretty well, except preventive actions. We do plenty of activities that could be classified as preventive actions but aren't sure how to document them or how to gather all the info in one place. Any suggestions?

You have asked a question on which there are almost as many opinions as there are auditors...

For a start, look at this discussion in the Continuous Improvement section: http://Elsmar.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000027.html

The calibration lab I am working with had the same problems when getting ready for our registration. As for documenting, we handle them just about the same as corrective actions. The only real difference is that instead of correcting a past problem and fixing its cause, we are trying to prevent a potential future problem.

The really hard part for us is deciding what is actually a preventive action and what is simply a process improvement. For instance, late last year we started using a computer-based calibration record-keeping and management system. We decided that was a process improvement in that it made our internal processes more efficient. Some months later we decided to get an additional specialty printer for the system, to gain the capability to print calibration labels from the system data instead of hand-writing them. We decided that is a Preventive Action because it eliminates the possibilty that the date on the label is different from the date in our computer records. It had not yet been a problem for us, but we knew it had been a problem for other similar organizations.

Graeme

[This message has been edited by Graeme (edited 22 August 2001).]

In our system we describe:
The Preventive Action System consists of serveral subsystems. Preventive actions may be initiated as result of process trend analysis, managment-designated roadmaps, staff meetings, internal audit feedback (observations)or preventive maintantenance.

There is more info included, but that sums up the system.

I missed that before. We use an agenda (and a measureables checklist) that is follwed and 'Preventive Action' is a discussed topic.

The improvement teams leader provides information updates, as well as information from Supervisors (or themselves if they ask to attend), Dept Engineers, Managers and other key folks.

Basically the onus is on the department staff & Manager. They discusses what is relevant in their department prior to the management meeting, and the dept rep that attends contributes as "preventive action" is discussed.

K Marie,

2 items we identify as PA are ECO's and the suggestion box. As for reporting to upper managment - QA reports the number of ECO's issued weekly. Suggestions are reviewed weekly by the VP.

Hope this helps
CarolX

Some PAs aren't reported because they're just business as usual (and some are never reported because they just don't get documented).

When we randomly select a full-up unit that's ready to ship, and assemble and test it for function and correct parts/packaging, a formal report of the results is sent to all upper management, including the Management Rep who includes the info in the Management Review. Doing stuff like this can be an expensive hassle, but it's sure helped us.

Alf

K Marie-
Have you tried creating a procedure that defines some of the PAs common to your business? These could include, in addition to Graeme's & Eileen's items:

Design Reviews (documented in your project folder),

Opening packages ready for shipping to inspect for missing/incorrect parts, and

Checking stored product for deterioration.

All of these can be easily defined and reported to management at appropriate (monthly? quarterly?) periods as preventive action.

Is this the kind of suggestion that's helpful or did I go off course again?

Alf

Your responses are definitely helpful. However, the biggest questions still remain: who, in your company, compiles the preventive action information, in what manner, how is it presented to management?

Dear K. Marie:

Defining what exactly is a preventive action has proven to be one of the big headaches of ISO 9000 and other registration. As a QS 9000/VDA 6.1 auditor I frequently look at the connection between Continuous Improvement and PA. In most companies there usually is (or should exist) a CI committee. During "Brainstorming Sessions" ideas are generated that could qualify as PA's. The examples given in the previous threads are pretty good, I believe. The PA should address something that (still) is not a problem but could evolve into one. In QS 9000, FMEA's are a good example of a PA (if they are not already required by contract). Another good example is a so-called "Poka Yoke" (mistake proofing device). The important thing is to have something to show to the auditor, you may not even have to "formalize" it (as through an official PA form), but simply to understand the concept well and show some evidence.
If you require further help, please feel free to contact me at (512) 837-3376 or (512) 698-7880. I am a free-lance (contract) auditor and live in Austin, TX.

Sincerely,

Klaus W. Petersen

You might want to try a Search here in the forums using 'preventive corrective' and you'll find a wealth of information.

Example: http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=2694

Another good thread is http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=3179

One of the Grand Daddies is http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=3147

K Marie

In my company, we have a CPAR form- Corrective and Preventive Action Request. I save this for major issues, or NCR trends. Sometimes management generates the CPAR's based on NCR trends or things they see as major problems when we have our Mngmt Review meeting. Sometimes the Quality Board issues them for the reasons listed above. I also use them for issues discovered during internal audits. I find this system works quite well. I am the management rep. I oversee this whole ordeal and make sure people are keeping on top of this stuff.
At management review we discuss any open CPAR's and any new ones.

I can send you a copy of the form if you like. Send me an e-mail if you want a copy.

Hope this helps.

Oh! I also have a mail from my registrar that I can send you that clarifies the difference between preventive and corrective action.

Good luck!

Fire Girl

> Oh! I also have a mail from my registrar that I can send
> you that clarifies the difference between preventive and
> corrective action.

Is it electronic? Can you post it here in this thread? If so, just Reply (Post your Comments or whatever) and upload the file as an attachment to the reply.

Or is this what you posted in http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=3589

BTW - who is your registrar?

Marc

It is the same clip I put in my response to Audrey's post titled, "Corrective Action Impact". But I will post it here again if you wish.

My registrar is SGS. I have no complaints whatsoever about them. I find them to be very thorough and professional and they are always fair.

Here's that clip:

"Corrective Action: Action taken to eliminate the cause of nonconformities
in order to prevent recurrence.

Preventive Action: Action taken to eliminate the causes of potential
nonconformities in order to prevent their occurrence.

Preventive Actions are typically generated through trend analysis of
processes and product related issues. They can also come about from
benchmarking and hypothetical situations that you have thought of but have
not yet happened.

Preventive Actions can also be demonstrated in applications like error
proofing."

Peace out everybody.

Fire Girl
:bigwave:

That's fine. When I saw:

> Oh! I also have a mail from my registrar that I can send

I thought of paper mail or pdf file or something - not e-mail per se. Thanks for the info!

Originally posted by Alf Gulford
Some PAs aren't reported because they're just business as usual
Alf

Alf,
Could you elaborate on some of those business as usual PA's? Would that be like routine/preventative maintenance of equipment? Just a little curious, as usual:smokin:

The president of our company heads up P/A. Everyone can submitt P/A to the president. He has approval Authority, all P/As are reviewed in mgm.review. We have a single form that records all Info.

Our president is in charge of PA, all PAs are reviewed in Mgm. review, one form records the info. I can e-mail you the form if you like.

Originally posted by gpainter

I can e-mail you the form if you like.You might want to post it here as an attachment in a reply in this thread. It's easy to do - the 'Attachment' option is below the 'Options' block which is just below the text entry box when you reply. It is just under the Options' block and just above the 'Submit Reply' button at the very bottom. You just 'Browse' to the file on your drive and it will be in the post for whoever reads the thread to download.

Or.... You may end up with a thread here with 50 requests for it and/or you may find your e-mail mailbox full for the next month. Just an FYI. :thedeal:

Here is the form.