I apologize for the interuption. I couldn't find how to start a new thread. That's why I interrupted here.
My Title is: Clause7.5.4 Customer Property?

I 'm a Quality representative in a Manufacturing company and am in the process of documenting the Quality Manual. When I come to the Clause 7.5.4 Customer Property, I had a doubt should my company excludes this clause.

My company key activities are. Prop hiring and manufacturing Cast-in plates for precast industry. And we don't use any of the clients' material on deliverable rather than drawings and specifications.

So, can we exclude clause7.5.4? Is purchasing products from our supplier is customer property?

It would be greatly appreciated should any of you clarify this clause for me?

Thank you in advance.

I apologize for the interuption. I couldn't find how to start a new thread. That's why I interrupted here.
My Title is: Clause7.5.4 Customer Property?

I 'm a Quality representative in a Manufacturing company and am in the process of documenting the Quality Manual. When I come to the Clause 7.5.4 Customer Property, I had a doubt should my company excludes this clause.

My company key activities are. Prop hiring and manufacturing Cast-in plates for precast industry. And we don't use any of the clients' material on deliverable rather than drawings and specifications.

So, can we exclude clause7.5.4? Is purchasing products from our supplier is customer property?

It would be greatly appreciated should any of you clarify this clause for me?

Thank you in advance.

Welcome,

First, to start a thread - Asking A Question or Starting a Conversation by Starting a New Thread in a Forum (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=18980)

Next, bear in mind that for the 2008 version, "both intellectual property and personal data should be considered as customer property" (actually this was how it was interpreted all along and the 2008 version only made it clearer - and that includes things like drawings, designs and calculations)

Customer property is not really a 'big' issue in that you don't normally require a procedure for it nor exclude it explicitly. A sentence or paragraph stating that you would take care and protect them as if it were your own and account for it plus inform the customer if there are damages will be sufficient in general.

If you purchase anything from your customer and/or there are evidence of such business transaction (rights to goods having been transferred to you), it is no more a customer property.

I apologize for the interuption. I couldn't find how to start a new thread. That's why I interrupted here.
My Title is: Clause7.5.4 Customer Property?

I 'm a Quality representative in a Manufacturing company and am in the process of documenting the Quality Manual. When I come to the Clause 7.5.4 Customer Property, I had a doubt should my company excludes this clause.

My company key activities are. Prop hiring and manufacturing Cast-in plates for precast industry. And we don't use any of the clients' material on deliverable rather than drawings and specifications.

So, can we exclude clause7.5.4? Is purchasing products from our supplier is customer property?

It would be greatly appreciated should any of you clarify this clause for me?

Thank you in advance.

Welcome to the Cove:bigwave::bigwave:

Actually I in our QM, I add this section for the drawings , designs {intellectual property } for the customer in the DOcument Control Procedure. u really dont need to make a separate procedure like Harry is saying. for other goods and products, in fact as we are a manufacture company as well, so we dont get any thing from customer apart from drawings (perhaps same as urs) so you dont need to mension any i assumed. As for what you purchase from supliers; its actually yours untill you deliver it to the customer, so its not really a customer property.
hope this help.

P.S, I've just done with our Quality Maunal for ISO9001, so you are welcome to ask any while you go through your other procedures.

Thank you very much for your kind help. Hope I need your help until I complete the manual.

I apologize for the interuption. I couldn't find how to start a new thread. That's why I interrupted here.
My Title is: Clause7.5.4 Customer Property?

I 'm a Quality representative in a Manufacturing company and am in the process of documenting the Quality Manual. When I come to the Clause 7.5.4 Customer Property, I had a doubt should my company excludes this clause.

My company key activities are. Prop hiring and manufacturing Cast-in plates for precast industry. And we don't use any of the clients' material on deliverable rather than drawings and specifications.

So, can we exclude clause7.5.4? Is purchasing products from our supplier is customer property?

It would be greatly appreciated should any of you clarify this clause for me?

Thank you in advance.

Typically, 'Customer Property' applies to something the customer owns, sends to you for processing and, having completed it you then return it. Like your car when you take it to a dealer for service, or your shoes when you take them to be re-soled (does anyone do that these days?).

Your expectation (as a customer) is for them (the supplier) to take care of it, do the work without damaging it and return it as requested. If they (the supplier) find something is wrong and could affect the work they (the supplier) would do, wouldn't you like to know, first? All you have to do is consider these situations (if they apply) as if you are the supplier!

Here's a couple of examples:

A company who sells specialised tools and takes them back and repairs them if they break down. It is the 'taking them back' that makes them 'customer supplied property'. If they did the repair at the customer site, it (probably) wouldn't apply.

A property/real estate firm (realty in the US I think) who has keys to various houses and flats that they rent and sell. The keys are property supplied by the customer, and which will ultimately be returned.

I've had different auditors take different positions on something like the following: Drawings, specifications, etc supplied by a customer. Examples include:

a manufacturing firm so that they can make special mouldings for the customer
a specialised consulting engineering firm to use as reference inputs, in order for them to produce their mathematical models

In no case do the drawings, specs, etc. need to be returned. I've had a couple of auditors consider something like this as falling under 7.5.4, and insist it not be excluded from scope, where others have accepted the exclusion, and consider them as customer inputs.

Typically, 'Customer Property' applies to something the customer owns, sends to you for processing and, having completed it you then return it. Like your car when you take it to a dealer for service, or your shoes when you take them to be re-soled (does anyone do that these days?).

I agree with you that this is 'typical', Andy.
But what about the less typical - eg, intellectual property or personal data? I don't see that it's possible to 'return' IP, do you? (Unless it's something stored on a media such as a CD etc)
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the examples I quoted in previous post.

I agree with you that this is 'typical', Andy.
But what about the less typical - eg, intellectual property or personal data? I don't see that it's possible to 'return' IP, do you? (Unless it's something stored on a media such as a CD etc)
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the examples I quoted in previous post.

jane, good point!

I've always considered the requirement to include some aspect of use/processing, so - as we are both consultants (well, I was) we'd consider being 'loaned' a client's documentation, which we might review/comment on, not write all over and then return. If it was deficient, perhaps against a standard etc. we might bring that to their attention. Of course we wouldn't 'share' or 'blab' about their documentation or its contents, would we??!!

When I ran training courses on a client's site, I might be given a room, tables, chairs etc. Before I ripped into changing it to make it more convenient for training, I might ask the client if it was O.K and then ensure that it was returned to the original configuration. If, as has happened, the room was unsuitable (can you imagine trying to train in what amounted to a diner with booths?) I might explain that the layout was unsatisfactory, bring it to their attention that the training experience might suffer and get their understanding before moving on (it's unlikely they would reschedule, you have to be flexible)

Does that help?

Jane,

My doubt araise from your first post.

As a manufacturing/ Prop hiring company, we do get the drawings from client and input the information from the drawings and manufacture and deliver to the customer. And do not return the customer property(drawings & specifications)

That's why, I'm confused should I exclude this clause or not.

The organization shall exercise care with customer property while it is under the organization's control or being used by the organization. The organization shall identify, verify, protect and safeguard customer property provided for use or incorporation into the product. If any customer property is lost, damaged or otherwise found to be unsuitable for use, the organization shall report this to the customer and maintain records (see 4.2.4).
NOTE Customer property can include intellectual property and personal data.
In my mind it's very clear. It's the customer's intellectual property that has been provided for your company's use. 7.5.4 must apply.

I can't tell if it applies to you from the description of your company, but in many casting shops, the molds are customer property.

Gooofii,
THanak you for your kind advise. Hope I need more help and advise from you until I complete my Quality MAnual.

Can you also clarify the clause 7.6 Control of monitoring and measuring equipment ?

In our company we normally use normal vernier calipers sort of stuff and not any rocket science involves.

What sort of calibration need to done and what records need to be maintained here.

Is it possible for you to clarify?

divyavb,
I thought I would raise the conversation to the cove fellows as i am sure they can help you aswell better than me.:)

wel, as for the calibration, what we normally have is a Standard meter and that is we regularly check every period of time. For other electronic devices, you should also do a test reguraly to assure it is accurate and precise, but perhaps in your case you dont have electronic devises
:2cents:

I didn't specifically see "software" mentioned in the thread, but customer property can also extend to software as well.

bob

Another consideration is product that was "shipped in place" which means the Customer's product has been paid for and we are responsible to protect and preserve until the Customer take possession of the product. I think that also falls under Customer Property.

Jane,

My doubt araise from your first post.

As a manufacturing/ Prop hiring company, we do get the drawings from client and input the information from the drawings and manufacture and deliver to the customer. And do not return the customer property(drawings & specifications)

That's why, I'm confused should I exclude this clause or not.

Divyavb80,

I'm sorry if I confused you - I got interested in the topic 'in general'. Also, 'do we return it?' isn't a failsafe check, as has been agreed in this thread.

First, do not exclude it from your scope.

Second: don't worry. Excluding (or not) this particular clause isn't a big thing; it shouldn't have a big impact at all even if you make the 'wrong call'.

Why? Because if you do exclude it, and later your auditor (who will have the benefit of being there and seeing your whole system, which I can't) disagreed and said this clause should be excluded, this will (I assume) be at your pre-audit (before the main audit). No drama: you would just add the exclusion into your manual before The Audit.

Exclusion/inclusion of certain clauses, such as the 7.3 clause on design, would have a huge impact on a system, if the exclusion wasn't a valid one. This one wouldn't (or shouldn't).

Because really, all you need to do is what I hope & expect that you are doing already:

Checking whatever you receive from your customer (drawings, specs) to use, in order to make sure it/they are accurate & fit for your use; and if not (or if they are damaged - eg, deleted/lost/only some received), telling your customer & rectifying the situation.

Making sure your customers' property (eg drawings) are identified - eg, by using their filenames & versions, storing them in certain locations, etc

Protecting & keeping their stuff safe the whole time while it's in your hands. Your customers would (rightly) expect for example, that you don't allow people not on your staff to see their stuff, or don't just toss copies of their confidential drawings out in the paper waste bin, where they might possibly be found & seen by others, but that you dispose of them so as to keep them protected (eg, shred, delete etc)


You would/should build controls to make sure these things happen into your system procedures (you don't need a separate 'customer supplied property procedure!).

OK?

Recently, I was asked on this question on the definition of personal data as customer property.

If let's say a company (food processing with no physical customers property and customers IP being withheld) is looking for new business with potential customers, in order to assess the business risk of doing business with this potential customers, this company has soughted third party help to retrieve some business information pertaining to this potential customers, including customer company revenue, customers' customers, customer credit/debit status...etc...

In this case, would you consider it as customer property even before any business transaction was being carried out? :bonk:

Please share your thought...thanks.....:truce:

.................. in order to assess the business risk of doing business with this potential customers, this company has soughted third party help to retrieve some business information pertaining to this potential customers, including customer company revenue, customers' customers, customer credit/debit status...etc...

In this case, would you consider it as customer property even before any business transaction was being carried out? :bonk:

Please share your thought...thanks.....:truce:

What you described sounds like a preliminary study using information available to the public through the target company's fillings with the Registrar of Companies or Securities Commission if it is a listed entity. These are disclosures mandated by law and available for public consumption and hence not 'Customer Property'.

You may also use your business intelligence system to gather other facts not otherwise disclosed but these are your business secrets.

If you proceed further and are given the rights to conduct a business due diligence, then you are dealing with customer property and more - of course after having meet the necessary conditions and various undertakings.

In this case, would you consider it as customer property even before any business transaction was being carried out?

No. Reason: as explained by Harry.

Per the standard in clause 7.5.4...."The organization shall exercise care with customer's property while it is under the organization's control or being used by the organization"....don't forget things like the practice of safeguardiing customers' credit card numbers, shipping account numbers...things like that, if they apply to you.
These are often overlooked, but they are indeed customer-owned property.

Thanks for all your feedback. :agree: