Is tranisition training required for an organization's internal auditors. I have received a solicitation from a training provider who says that their course meets RABQASA and IRCA requirements. Don't't these requirements pertain just to certification/regsistrar auditors.

I have seen nothing that makes "transition training" mandatory for anyone else.

Thank you.
Paul

Training requirements for internal auditors are generally set by the organization. I agree that the transition training requirement would be for certification in third party auditors, say for BSI or DNV. You do not appear to be a specific target in the advertisement; sounds to me like they are fishing.

Is tranisition training required for an organization's internal auditors. I have received a solicitation from a training provider who says that their course meets RABQASA and IRCA requirements. Don't't these requirements pertain just to certification/regsistrar auditors.

I have seen nothing that makes "transition training" mandatory for anyone else.

Thank you.
Paul

A course that meets the RABQSA or IRCA requirements is not just for a CB/registrar auditor. Any qms or ems auditor looking for 'accredited' training would attend such a class.

There is no transition training requirement for ISO 2008, for example, it's just that the training provider's course meets those requirements. I agree with Jen, it may be that they're trying to drum up some business.......

It depends on what your Registrar requires - I have seen some that want companies to review their systems to see if they now meet the 'clarifications' in the standard.

I should be running a public course on changes to the standard, not because it's required that companies attend something like that, but just because some ppl want to find out and are willing to attend a seminar to get the info.

It depends on what your Registrar requires - I have seen some that want companies to review their systems to see if they now meet the 'clarifications' in the standard.

Are you serious that a CB (not a single auditor) requires a client to attend training in the 2008 standard? If so, I'd politely suggest that client should start looking for another CB.......

It depends on what your Registrar requires - I have seen some that want companies to review their systems to see if they now meet the 'clarifications' in the standard.

Which Registrars do "require" this?

Stijloor.

I should be running a public course on changes to the standard, not because it's required that companies attend something like that, but just because some ppl want to find out and are willing to attend a seminar to get the info.

According to my incoming e-mails, everyone is offering "Training" for the 2008 clarifications.

According to my incoming e-mails, everyone is offering "Training" for the 2008 clarifications.

I think that whether training is a good idea in this instance is wholly dependent on whether (A) doughnuts* are provided, and (B) the training takes no more than 10 minutes unless it takes longer to eat the doughnuts.


*And I mean bakery doughnuts, not that Dunkin' Donuts junk. This is important training, after all.

According to my incoming e-mails, everyone is offering "Training" for the 2008 clarifications.

It's called "Revenue".........;), but offering doesn't mean it's mandatory

According to my incoming e-mails, everyone is offering "Training" for the 2008 clarifications.

Not me Ralph...;) But I can do it if you want me to...:agree1:

Stijloor.

I sincerely hope registered companies are not spending scarce training funds with these "fear-mongering" firms touting the need for training on mere clarifications.

If the clarifications aren't clear then shame on TC176 or else perhaps a quick look in the mirror? All management reps should be able to take the lead on this internally.

Just my two cents' worth. :bigwave:

I sincerely hope registered companies are not spending scarce training funds with these "fear-mongering" firms touting the need for training on mere clarifications.

If the clarifications aren't clear then shame on TC176 or else perhaps a quick look in the mirror? All management reps should be able to take the lead on this internally.

Just my two cents' worth. :bigwave:

More like $3.57 to me.............:lmao:

Fear mongering? :confused:

Wow, if this causes fear then folks better not even leave the house.

Are you serious that a CB (not a single auditor) requires a client to attend training in the 2008 standard? If so, I'd politely suggest that client should start looking for another CB.......

AndyN - I don't recall saying that Registrars require companies / individuals to attend training on the standard. If you can quote me giving that statement I will remove it from the relevant post.

Which Registrars do "require" this?

Stijloor.


Here's what I have (mostly documents send by the Registrars in one-on-one emails, which I will not reproduce in full; I will post the url if I know it's publicly available):

BSI: "However, any change to what is the world’s most used standard means that there will need to be some changes made to management systems." (source: "ISO 9001:2008 – Changes from 2000 Version & Certification Transition Requirements" Issue 1, January 09, Page 1)

UL DQS Management Systems Solutions: "In order to assist customers in making this review, consider classifying each clarification to the standard into one of the following categories...

A: There is very good reason for a review.

B: There is some reason for a review.

C: There is little reason for a review, however, it is recommended that this point be checked and reviewed if needed.

D: The change is not relevant to the quality management system. No action necessary.

...
Review of the relevance of the modifications for any given quality management system may result in one of the following:

There is need for action
If the quality management system does not completely fulfill the standard’s requirements; supplements or Clarifications are necessary. The need for action may be related to a change in the text of the norm or it may be caused by new wording with no Clarifications actually made. Sometimes a new wording can make requirements visible where they had been hard to identify before..."
(source: "ISO 9001:2008 – up-to-date, clear, precise classification of the Clarifications" December 23, 2008)


LRQA: "Approved clients
Clients are required to carry out a review of their management system against the requirements of the 2008 standard. The results of this review must be recorded and any necessary amendments to the management system must be made and implemented."
(source: pp. 1-2 PDF on website (http://www.lrqausa.com/Documents/Client%20Information%20Note%20-%20ISO9001%202008%20transition%20MSBSR41708.pdf), Revision 0.1, 17 November 2008)

These are 'big guns' in my little country - some of you may not think they are important in the grand scheme of things, but they impact more than (estimated) 50% of the certified companies here.


I appreciate comments on whether you accept this as evidence of my earlier post.

Of course, posting on whether Registrars can "require" this is a different issue and fair game within this thread.

Fair enough!

Stijloor.

I will take that as high praise, coming from you

:cool:

(There's no icon showing a bow).

It depends on what your Registrar requires


Read the title of the thread and then the first words of your post............:notme:

Sorry - I thought what I said came across as:

Yes - if you have Regsitrar A who requires you to be trained

AND

No - if you have Regsitrar B who does not require you to be trained


I see it as a "Yes and No" (aka "it depends") answer.

This does not say "you have to take the webinar" but it clearly points you there:

http://www.uk.sgs.com/9001transition


I'll concede that I haven't yet seen a Registrar document a requirement to have staff attend training, but I won't be surprised when/if I do.

SGS gives companies an out, but how the individual auditors interpret it is anybody's guess:

What kind of training does the management representative have to undergo and how do we show evidence of such training?

The nominated Management Representative needs to be competent in carrying out the role. This is defined clearly in clause 5.5.2 and centre upon management responsibilities and authorities to ensure that the QMS is operating effectively. Critical to this is an understanding of the management system policies, objectives and processes relating to the provision of the organisation’s product or service. Training is indeed one way in which a management representative may gain an understanding of the application and requirements of ISO 9001:2008 and appropriate records kept (clause 6.2.2) but competence in the task will come from his or her wider experience within the context of the organisation’s business operations.

source:SGS PDF file (http://www.uk.sgs.com/ssc-your-answers-to-webinar-questions.pdf), WEBINAR Qs : V1 12/08

I think the standard does not change a lot, training is not require & BSI or DNV does not insist for the training.

SGS gives companies an out, but how the individual auditors interpret it is anybody's guess:



source:SGS PDF file (http://www.uk.sgs.com/ssc-your-answers-to-webinar-questions.pdf), WEBINAR Qs : V1 12/08

Registrars can not establish competency and training requirements for their clients. That's what the folks here in this thread are trying to get across.

Stijloor.

Agreed.

Registrars can issue NCs when they determine there is a lack of effectiveness of the QMS (whether the root cause be competence-related or otherwise).

Agreed.

Registrars can issue NCs when they determine there is a lack of effectiveness of the QMS (whether the root cause be competence-related or otherwise).

That is correct! :agree1:

Stijloor.

No - I have been advised that in line with IRCA that it is not necessary to do a one day course externally - however you will have to demonstrate training
- eg ASQ San Diego Chapter prepared some slide packs for a seminar they ran for their members - so as an ASQ member I will be using them - I also found 2 articles in ASQ's Quality Progress and also Quality Digest which provide a good overview
- then I ran a discussion in our company Global QMS COP on what were the key changes - and distilled the comments - likewise those from ASQ discussion boards and ASQ LinkedIn groups - mostly the comments are similar to those made in the Elsmore Cove forums

I am then sharing this personal training pack with my QMS Internal auditors and site document control officer

- I am also running this by the Chair and another member of Australia's Quality Committee that feeds into ISO TC 176 to get their thoughts

in the current climate external training is not easily justified for manufacturing companies

cheers
KerrieAnne aka machrk:bigwave:
http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/misc/progress.gif

there should be no additional training for this transition - the cb i use has written a letter stating this!