I am going to be appearing for the Lead auditor exam for ISO 9001:2008, and one thing I can expect is the generating a checklist for specific clauses with probing questions. The problem is I am struck in how to generate those questions. Most of the checklists state the clauses and leave the questioning part to the auditor. I am sure this is a skill and will be developed over a period. But is there any simple question structure which I can use to break the clauses and generate probing questions.

I am going to be appearing for the Lead auditor exam for ISO 9001:2008, and one thing I can expect is the generating a checklist for specific clauses with probing questions. The problem is I am struck in how to generate those questions. Most of the checklists state the clauses and leave the questioning part to the auditor. I am sure this is a skill and will be developed over a period. But is there any simple question structure which I can use to break the clauses and generate probing questions.

Are you just taking the exam or did you attend a training class too?

Are you just taking the exam or did you attend a training class too?
Yes..I am underwent a training for the past 4 days..tomorrow is d last day of the training and the exam day :)

Yes..I am underwent a training for the past 4 days..tomorrow is d last day of the training and the exam day :)

I believe part of the class content is there to help you develop the skill of interviewing someone. You may wish to ask your instructor to go over this again.

I am going to be appearing for the Lead auditor exam for ISO 9001:2008, and one thing I can expect is the generating a checklist for specific clauses with probing questions. The problem is I am struck in how to generate those questions. Most of the checklists state the clauses and leave the questioning part to the auditor. I am sure this is a skill and will be developed over a period. But is there any simple question structure which I can use to break the clauses and generate probing questions.

A "probing" question is one intended to elicit an answer that indicates that the auditee understands the requirements. A good way to identify a non-probing question is whether or not it may be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
Non-probing question: "Does what you do support the company quality policy?"
Probing question: "Tell me how your job supports the company quality policy."

Non-probing question: "Does your documented procedure differentiate between preventive and corrective action?"
Probing: "Can you explain the difference between preventive and corrective action, and how your documented procedure supports the definitions?"

The objective of "probing" is to get people to talk about what they're doing and forestall monosyllabic answers. Another way to look at it is to avoid asking "leading" questions, and you do this by not including possible answers in your questions.

I believe part of the class content is there to help you develop the skill of interviewing someone. You may wish to ask your instructor to go over this again.

We did one exercise at the start during ice breaker session..I am going to ask but how ever, if i could just jot down, would help me to prepare... :P

we have an exercise where a incident has to be checked whether as NC or not and if not, and write down what further questions I will ask to ascertain, that whether it is really a nc or not...

now I am getting the angle...Thanks for the info..

A "probing" question is one intended to elicit an answer that indicates that the auditee understands the requirements. A good way to identify a non-probing question is whether or not it may be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
Non-probing question: "Does what you do support the company quality policy?"
Probing question: "Tell me how your job supports the company quality policy."

Non-probing question: "Does your documented procedure differentiate between preventive and corrective action?"
Probing: "Can you explain the difference between preventive and corrective action, and how your documented procedure supports the definitions?"

The objective of "probing" is to get people to talk about what they're doing and forestall monosyllabic answers. Another way to look at it is to avoid asking "leading" questions, and you do this by not including possible answers in your questions.

Things most instructors don't teach auditors in training:


You, as an auditor, must know WHAT you want to know.
Focus on relevant and important issues, disregard trivial matters.
You should either know (or have a pretty good idea) of the expected answer to your questions. Otherwise, you will ask a bunch of questions, get a bunch of answers, but have no idea if the answers were adequate or not.
Be prepared to deviate from the "trail" (checklist) when something important pops up during your investigation.

Things most instructors don't teach auditors in training:


You, as an auditor, must know WHAT you want to know.
Focus on relevant and important issues, disregard trivial matters.
You should either know (or have a pretty good idea) of the expected answer to your questions. Otherwise, you will ask a bunch of questions, get a bunch of answers, but have no idea if the answers were adequate or not.
Be prepared to deviate from the "trail" (checklist) when something important pops up during your investigation.

Yeap...Tks Sidney

We did one exercise at the start during ice breaker session..I am going to ask but how ever, if i could just jot down, would help me to prepare... :PLook at Jim's questions. Get people to talk by asking them to tell you about their jobs.

How do you... ...?
Can you describe/show me how you... ...?

Quite often you do not have to ask a single direct question. You just get them going and ask them to clarify what you did not grasp. That also has the added advantage that it is less likely to push people into a defensive position, thereby giving you a chance to have a discussion rather than an interrogation. There will always be the odd one that clams up, but most people actually like to talk about their jobs.

/Claes

I was under the impression that a "probing" question only meant that it be a question that could not be answered with a "yes" or a "no" answer.

Think of interview questions, such as "Tell me about a time when you had to...." [not really a QUESTION but it gets the person to respond with something other than a yes or a no]

Or just reread Jim & Sydney's posts - good information there!!!

Look at Jim's questions. Get people to talk by asking them to tell you about their jobs.

How do you... ...?
Can you describe/show me how you... ...?

Quite often you do not have to ask a single direct question. You just get them going and ask them to clarify what you did not grasp. That also has the added advantage that it is less likely to push people into a defensive position, thereby giving you a chance to have a discussion rather than an interrogation. There will always be the odd one that clams up, but most people actually like to talk about their jobs.

/Claes
how do this meet the requirements stated by your customer..?
can u show me the last CAR closed in your function..??

Yeap..I understand...

TCBD
I don't know if this will help you pass the exam or not but it will help you in terms of developing meaningful checklists.

Assuming your operating procedures (tiers II and III) satisfy the requirements of the standard, you use those procedures to develop your checklist. Try and analyze the procedure and from the documented "Shalls", "Wills" and "Musts" as stated therein, prioritize them and come up with audit questions that will provide you with a reasonable assurance that the procedure/process is being performed as documented.

Remember, the audit is a representative sample.

Hope this helps

Bob

I was under the impression that a "probing" question only meant that it be a question that could not be answered with a "yes" or a "no" answer.

Think of interview questions, such as "Tell me about a time when you had to...." [not really a QUESTION but it gets the person to respond with something other than a yes or a no]

Or just reread Jim & Sydney's posts - good information there!!!
yes..I have answered myself such questions... :)

I will read them...tks

TCBD
I don't know if this will help you pass the exam or not but it will help you in terms of developing meaningful checklists.

Assuming your operating procedures (tiers II and III) satisfy the requirements of the standard, you use those procedures to develop your checklist. Try and analyze the procedure and from the documented "Shalls", "Wills" and "Musts" as stated therein, prioritize them and come up with audit questions that will provide you with a reasonable assurance that the procedure/process is being performed as documented.

Remember, the audit is a representative sample.

Hope this helps

Bob
Unfortunately in my company, they have exhaustive checklists for the audits..so I will have to use them to pose questions..

however, This will help me certainly to improve my auditing skills..

I am really amazed at the flow of replies.. Tks to u & all

Look at Jim's questions. Get people to talk by asking them to tell you about their jobs.

How do you... ...?
Can you describe/show me how you... ...?


This is exactly how I identify an audit question! How do you know? followed up byCan you show me? (Can you prove it?) Let them fill in the blanks, ask questions if you do not understand. It will end up being probing enough...

For MSA, You might as "How do you know this is the right gage for what you are doing?" The answer should come from the fact they did a gage r&r, and should have the evidence that they did it for that gage family to prove it. (There may be other technologies utilized for those that may not like gage R&R, but, again, all they need to do is answer the "How do you know?" question effectively - and they are on their way....) :agree1:

Unfortunately in my company, they have exhaustive checklists for the audits..so I will have to use them to pose questions..

however, This will help me certainly to improve my auditing skills..

I am really amazed at the flow of replies.. Tks to u & allWhat says you "have to" use the checklists?

our company systems....they demand we use a standard checklist to conduct the audit while we are auditing our suppliers.

What says you "have to" use the checklists?

This is exactly how I identify an audit question! How do you know? followed up byCan you show me? (Can you prove it?) Let them fill in the blanks, ask questions if you do not understand. It will end up being probing enough...

For MSA, You might as "How do you know this is the right gage for what you are doing?" The answer should come from the fact they did a gage r&r, and should have the evidence that they did it for that gage family to prove it. (There may be other technologies utilized for those that may not like gage R&R, but, again, all they need to do is answer the "How do you know?" question effectively - and they are on their way....) :agree1:
How do you know? followed up byCan you show me?....thas a good tip..!! tks

You may find some useful info here (http://changingminds.org/techniques/questioning/probing_questions.htm)on further "probing questions".

A useful distinction is between closed and open questions. Try Googling for closed questions vs open questions & you should find a lot.

Closed question = one where a single response usually 'closes' the exchange, because it can be answered by just a yes/no or a fact. eg:

Are you British?
Are you an employee or contractor?
Does company policy permit smoking in office buildings?

Open (or open-ended) questions = ones that open up an exchange, invite further information. Good auditors use a lot of open-ended questions! eg:

Could you tell me more about how that works?
What is the usual practice when that occurs?
How does that help achieve the outcome?

Note that both are required, eg, there are times when you want to ask closed questions (Is your correct address 1234 High St?) and other times when open-ended questions are needed.

Nervous interviewers/inexperienced auditors often ask too many closed questions, and not enough open ones.

Jane beat me to the punch!! (Must be because Aussies are over 12 hours ahead of me (http://www.worldtimezone.com/index24.php)).

The Open/closed question approach is covered on the same site (http://changingminds.org/techniques/questioning/open_closed_questions.htm).

our company systems....they demand we use a standard checklist to conduct the audit while we are auditing our suppliers.I'm going to make a guess that the intent here was to help make sure all the desired ground gets covered when doing a supplier audit.

That's the rosy explanation. The darker option is that the expectation was to have auditors without sufficient skills to do a good job without these checklists.

Such can be the case in management systems that have not been operating long enough to mature into functional, people centric organizations with the needed skills and desire to perform without being told to breathe in and out.

The checklists are good as reminders to look for this, that and the other thing. However, using them as scripts tends to invite a superficial, low value approach to a supplier audit. You might as well just send them the checklist as a survey!

Why not use the checklist as a survey, but also visit to look at concerns your organization has with the supplier and inquire about the processes involved? In this way you can directly communicate your needs and perhaps offer suggestions or options to help get your needs met. For example, "Have you tried XYZ Transport? We have found they are very prompt and affordable, and our goods haven't been damaged when they do the shipping."
:2cents:

Thanks jane......if found them ,myself...yesterday...Now I have completed the test as well.. :))

thanks anyway..
You may find some useful info here (http://changingminds.org/techniques/questioning/probing_questions.htm)on further "probing questions".

A useful distinction is between closed and open questions. Try Googling for closed questions vs open questions & you should find a lot.

Closed question = one where a single response usually 'closes' the exchange, because it can be answered by just a yes/no or a fact. eg:

Are you British?
Are you an employee or contractor?
Does company policy permit smoking in office buildings?

Open (or open-ended) questions = ones that open up an exchange, invite further information. Good auditors use a lot of open-ended questions! eg:

Could you tell me more about how that works?
What is the usual practice when that occurs?
How does that help achieve the outcome?

Note that both are required, eg, there are times when you want to ask closed questions (Is your correct address 1234 High St?) and other times when open-ended questions are needed.

Nervous interviewers/inexperienced auditors often ask too many closed questions, and not enough open ones.

Questions such as:
What do you do if you find out of spec. dimensions or parts?
What happens if you drop a gage?
How have you been trained to do this job?
How and where is your training documented?
What do you do in your job to satisfy the customer?

These are helpful to determine the training competency and compliance with the requirements of the system and customer specifics.

Checklists are not locked in concrete. They can and should change based the documents from which the requirements originate and the audit history. It is like anything else, If you never have a finding associated with a particular audit question, then consider eliminating it, changing it or doing something like a skip sample using the particular question.


All kinds of approaches.

Bob

Checklists are not locked in concrete. They can and should change based the documents from which the requirements originate and the audit history.

In your world, Bob, maybe. But as a consultant for many years I've seen the use of those 'concrete' checklists - by many people!

In your world, Bob, maybe. But as a consultant for many years I've seen the use of those 'concrete' checklists - by many people!
I think checklists are a bad thing if they're used for anything other than as mnemonic devices--something to help you remember what you're trying to accomplish. Outside of that, I think that most checklists should be "locked in concrete," or somewhere else where no one can get to them.

Jim, I get your point. For all the good they do some auditors, they should perhaps be put in a time capsule.

Bob

One more thing: I always make sure that I ask a question such as "what do you need to help you do your job better?" or "what would make your work easier?" -- something with that intent - before I finish auditing an area.

Some of the replied can't be printed here, others (usually) have to do with alcohol - beer, specifically, but once in a while I get a really great idea out of someone that wouldn't have been covered had I not asked the question.

One person replied "a printer that works" - turns out this individual had the world's oldest printer which frequently malfunctioned - new printer arrived and the person's workload became much easier.

One person replied "a printer that works" - turns out this individual had the world's oldest printer which frequently malfunctioned - new printer arrived and the person's workload became much easier.

Audits shouldn't be used as a substitute for poor supervision! In this case, what was the person's supervisor doing? If they weren't aware of the inefficiencies caused by an old printer, then that's pretty poor management.

Sure, several kudos points for the auditor, but that's all!

<snip>

One person replied "a printer that works" - turns out this individual had the world's oldest printer which frequently malfunctioned - new printer arrived and the person's workload became much easier.

Yup - welcome to the 5th world mentality.

I did an audit at a client once and found that the person in charge of stores did not have a working PC. It had been down for over a month. He had reverted to writing on bin cards.

I went directly to the manager responsible for that area and informed him. By the next week there was a working PC.

What boggles the mind is that they work within 75 feet of each other (sure it's through a door and around a corner)!

As one poster's signature alludes to: Better low tech than no tech, or if the auditor identifies it, maybe improvement will take place and help identify OFI in supervision.

Hi,

I presume you have already taken the exam so I hope it went well!

The probing question depends on may things but mainly experience unfortunately as you develop this intuition thing that tells you something is not quite right without sometimes knowing exactly what is wrong!

Many auditors use a systematic approach which is fine but quite easy to prepare for. However it is probably a safe place to begin until you find your feet and get the confidence to ask more open questions.

Just make sure all questions are open and your subject :D cannot give yes or no answers. This allows them to show they know what they are doing as well as in many cases revealing what is actually wrong!

PS I thought the whole point of the new standards was process based and encouraged free thinking rather than using checklists. If i used a checklist i would be quietly told off!

Just remember who, why, when and what and you will be fine!

Checklist - Is document control effective?

Nothing wrong with that, it's important to remember to cover document control, and to recorded that you audited that function.

So how do you find out if their document control is effective or not? As Sidney correctly stated - you need to know what you are trying to establish.

As you get more experienced you can get a bit more freeform, but the principles don't really change, and I'll frequently go back to basics where that's the most appropriate approach.


So for document control, what would be probing questions? What do you think?
Here's an example of a bad audit question - "Do you control your documentation?" :)

Now that could be an interesting one depending whether you are trying to establish the control of the overall system or the knowledge of individual staff!

It also depends how far into the audit you are as you might already have established they have good control over their documents / records just by going through the other processes.

I sometimes find a wee walk around the organisation and either picking up the odd form or even asking an employee what they are filling in, where they got it from and then check how it is controlled is a good discussion point!

No better check for control than asking the people using the system rather than the person controlling / running it!

So for document control, what would be probing questions? What do you think?
Here's an example of a bad audit question - "Do you control your documentation?" :)
You can turn it into a "good" question by adding "How" at the beginning.