Is there any problem if QMS management representative belongs to any other departments instead of QA, QC or QS? I know ISO 9001:2008 (and ISO/TS) just mention “Top management shall appoint a member of the organization’s management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority ….”

Our current MR was a member of our Quality Systems group, but he was just promoted to another department, his mainly responsibilities will be according to his new position besides his responsibility as MR, but Top Management is wondering if there could be a problem to explain external auditors why QMS MR does not belong to QS group, he also has thought to include his name twice in the organizational chart (with different position names) even if he won’t be working directly for QS group, I don’t think it is a problem and he doesn't need to be included twice in the organizational chart, please let me know if I’m wrong and your opinions about it.

Thanks in advance Cove gurus, and please feel free to move this thread to the correct forum.

Gaby :)

Is there any problem if QMS management representative belongs to any other departments instead of QA, QC or QS? I know ISO 9001:2008 (and ISO/TS) just mention “Top management shall appoint a member of the organization’s management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority ….”

Our current MR was a member of our Quality Systems group, but he was just promoted to another department, his mainly responsibilities will be according to his new position besides his responsibility as MR, but Top Management is wondering if there could be a problem to explain external auditors why QMS MR does not belong to QS group, he also has thought to include his name twice in the organizational chart (with different position names) even if he won’t be working directly for QS group, I don’t think it is a problem and he doesn't need to be included twice in the organizational chart, please let me know if I’m wrong and your opinions about it.

Thanks in advance Cove gurus, and please feel free to move this thread to the correct forum.

Gaby :)

As long as he passes the "member of the organization's management" test, it doesn't matter what department he's in.

As long as he passes the "member of the organization's management" test, it doesn't matter what department he's in.

Thanks for your reply! :D

What do you think about include his name in 2 different positions just because he's the QMS MR? I mean, main responsibilities will be according new department, but top management wants to include him at member of QS group just to avoid explanation to external auditors, maybe I'm not expressing myself correctly, according to top management proposal MR's name will be written in the organizational chart as member of QS group, but he won't, responsible of QS group will be someone else, he will be only in paper, but not physically.

Thanks for your reply! :D

What do you think about include his name in 2 different positions just because he's the QMS MR? I mean, main responsibilities will be according new department, but top management wants to include him at member of QS group just to avoid explanation to external auditors, maybe I'm not expressing myself correctly, according to top management proposal MR's name will be written in the organizational chart as member of QS group, but he won't, responsible of QS group will be someone else, he will be only in paper, but not physically.

There's no requirement to even have an org chart, so it doesn't matter so long as he is "a member of the organization's management" and he's fulfilling MR responsibilities. The CB auditor will want to know who the MR is, and should ask top managment who the MR is and what his position is, irrespective of MR duties.

There's no requirement to even have an org chart, so it doesn't matter so long as he is "a member of the organization's management" and he's fulfilling MR responsibilities. The CB auditor will want to know who the MR is, and should ask top managment who the MR is and what his position is, irrespective of MR duties.

Thank you very much!!! :thanks:

Gaby here is what the standard states, you tell us

5.5.2 Management representative
Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilities,...

Many of our questions can be answered by looking to the requirements themselves

Very true, Randy, and I really like the way you constantly refer back to it and point people back to it, & I want you to keep right on doing it - I say that even though I know you're gonna pay no heed to anyone suggesting you do anything of course, including me ;)

Thing is, not everyone knows the Standard inside out & back to front. Or understands it as thoroughly.

Thing is, not everyone knows the Standard inside out & back to front. Or understands it as thoroughly.

Thanks........yeah it's pretty sad how many practitioners need practice:lol:

The real kicker is that all it requires is taking the time, going cover to cover, removing individual bias, and not looking any deeper than the words themselves.

:topic:

Thanks........yeah it's pretty sad how many practitioners need practice:lol:.

Isn't it good that you're there to give it to 'em, Randy? (words carefully chosen) ;)

In the case of 'practitioners' being practising auditors (even third-party ones!) quality managers, consultants, and the like, I agree with you.

Whereas with people relatively new to quality, say, I don't. Because it can take time & a helpful teacher or three to help understanding, particularly some of the trickier or more obtusely worded bits.

The real kicker is that all it requires is taking the time, going cover to cover, removing individual bias, and not looking any deeper than the words themselves.

Oh, no problem then. Close de Cove in dat case. :D

I also offers in house trainings regarding ISO 9001 etc & have experinced that some people make even simplest things complicated. :notme:

Gaby here is what the standard states, you tell us

5.5.2 Management representative
Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilities,...

Many of our questions can be answered by looking to the requirements themselves

That's what I understand, it doesn't matter what department he is meanwhile he accomplishes with all his responsibilities (including MR ones), but as amanbhai mentioned:

have experinced that some people make even simplest things complicated. :notme:

this is my main problem :frust:, they want to make things complicated, even if I'm explaining them refering the standard and also showing your replies they still think it will be a problem during audits, I really don't understand how people can be so stubborn or narrow-minded :nope:. :mad:

ven if I'm explaining them refering the standard and also showing your replies they still think it will be a problem during audits, I really don't understand how people can be so stubborn or narrow-minded

Me either, but I've seen it happen often enough to know that it's a real occurrence which does crop up.

My theory is that in most cases it's arising from an area not connected with logic, and probably psychologically & emotionally-based - which means that people exhibiting it would need a high level of self-knowledge to recognise this and respond logically instead.

Perhaps in some cases it goes back to being 'in trouble' or 'wrong' at kindergarten! :D I recall seeing a senior manager, years and years ago on a certification project, in an absolute lather the day before The Audit, and being quite struck by the very high degree of stress she exhibited (not seen before or after), and the symptoms displayed. You also may not know of other drivers impacting on management (eg, if in turn their manager has done the 'better get it/keep it or else!' thing on them).

My advice, for what it's worth, is to be aware this phenomenon exists, to keep the 'unknown quite possibly psychological cause' scenario in mind (it often helps me avoid becoming overly frustrated), and just keep gently reiterating and emphasising the facts. Good luck.

Is there any problem if QMS management representative belongs to any other departments instead of QA, QC or QS? I know ISO 9001:2008 (and ISO/TS) just mention “Top management shall appoint a member of the organization’s management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority ….”

Our current MR was a member of our Quality Systems group, but he was just promoted to another department, his mainly responsibilities will be according to his new position besides his responsibility as MR, but Top Management is wondering if there could be a problem to explain external auditors why QMS MR does not belong to QS group, he also has thought to include his name twice in the organizational chart (with different position names) even if he won’t be working directly for QS group, I don’t think it is a problem and he doesn't need to be included twice in the organizational chart, please let me know if I’m wrong and your opinions about it.

Thanks in advance Cove gurus, and please feel free to move this thread to the correct forum.

Gaby :)
ISO actually suggests that the MR not be the qa manager but there are no specific job details that disqualifies anyone as the MR.
I am the MR and the QA Manager where I work and I can tell you that it is too much for one person to handle as well as it should be handled.

ISO actually suggests that the MR not be the qa manager

It does??? Where?

ISO actually suggests that the MR not be the qa manager but there are no specific job details that disqualifies anyone as the MR.
I am the MR and the QA Manager where I work and I can tell you that it is too much for one person to handle as well as it should be handled.

Then you must be doing something wrong because there is no requirment that the MR do anything but ensure the system processes are established implemented, & maintained; report to TM the performance of the system (results of internal audit); and ensure customer requirements are promoted within the organization.....

Nowhere does it say that the MR has to anything but "ensure" and that doesn't mean do it all himself/herself.

Maybe we need to discuss delegation of responsibility....

It does??? Where?

My apologies Jane, it is not the standard that says that it was my registrar that said it was not a good idea. Again, I apologize for mis-speaking!:bonk:

As Randy noted, once the system is stable there isn't much to do as the MR except maintain and improve the system.

However, I do spend a great deal of time calming down a couple of people before the audit. I even had someone get "sick" the entire week that that audit was (btw, the audit was only 1 day of that week!).

I keep telling them that we are doing everything we are supposed to be doing and using the system to improve our processes, etc., etc. ....doesn't seem to work. Even when the auditor at the closing meeting tells us he is very impressed with the maturity of the program and how the system has become part of our culture. One person was about to have an anxiety attack until he was actually out the door!

Randy - our auditor is very good at handling this but any tips to help me prevent a nervous breakdown?

John

<snip>Nowhere does it say that the MR has to anything but "ensure" and that doesn't mean do it all himself/herself.

Maybe we need to discuss delegation of responsibility....

In the company I work for our MR isn't even on site. My job is to oversee and maintain quality systems documents / create / revise work instructions and monitor corective action. I also interact with customer quality concerns in concert with the QA manager. Our MR schedules internal audits and interacts with AS9100 surveillance audits / auditor(s). :D

Randy - our auditor is very good at handling this but any tips to help me prevent a nervous breakdown?

John

Thanks for the comments:thanx:

Tips to prevent breakdown? Man,I don't know........I've had people pass out, pass water, pass gas, throw up, cry, run away, stare off into space, mutter like Ralph Cramdon getting caught by Alice, lock up, and melt........some folks all of these at the same time:lol:

As an auditor what do I do to keep the above from happening? Within the 1st minute I'm with someone I try to get 'em laughing about something, just like I do with my folks in the classroom........when your laughing it's hard to be uptight and nervous........of course I have laughed and wet my knickers at the same time when I've gotten scared, but that's another story:lol:

I try to make folks confortable by getting them to relax and the organization should do the same (Jose Cuervo helps). ;) I think most of the overcoming the nervousness problem rests with the auditor and the groundwork he/she lays and the tone he/she sets for the audit. I sure ain't the best....I'm not happy with my audit product last week (report), but I seem to get asked back and asked for alot, and there are some folks that seem to be hurt if I don't interview them........I try to teach it that way........Positive-proactive-Value added

As an auditor what do I do to keep the above from happening? Within the 1st minute I'm with someone I try to get 'em laughing about something, just like I do with my folks in the classroom...

I try to make folks confortable by getting them to relax and the organization should do the same

Yes, I agree with you Randy.


Somerqc, I wonder - what's the culture of your organisation like? Is it OK if mistakes occur, for example? Because a whole week off sounds rather extreme. Is it just one person exhibiting this behaviour, or many? If one - sounds like it's them. If more... I'd be looking more widely.

Jane...are you asking what my organization culture is like? You're saying you don't know who I work for?:bonk:

The examples I used aren't from my company....they could be I guess, but I don't audit my folks....

Randy, oops my mistake, I can see what I wrote was confusing. Sorry! :o

In the 2nd para I was actually addressing Somerqc since it was John's organisation where there was a lot of stress going on (not you/yours)!

Oh well, we do have some stress though:lol:

:topic:

Randy, in that case check out this guy's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIwEdABOC4)interesting approach to relieving stress. (Can't say it would make an audit go well though!) :lol: