ANAB has released a new Heads Up, clarifying when such audits constitute a conflict of interest:
147. CBs Conducting Second-Party Supplier Audits (http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/HeadsUp/HU147.pdf)

Absolutely, for sure, yes!

In fact I have a cerftification client who has their internal audits performed by **** (can't say, confidentiality and all that):lol:

It's nice that ANAB has clarified it for folks

In fact I have a cerftification client who has their internal audits performed by **** (can't say, confidentiality and all that)Actually, you could state the name of the organization performing the internal audits. It would only be a breach of confidentiality, if you disclosed BOTH the registrant (your customer) and the organization performing internal audits, together.

Interesting.

My previous understanding of ISO 9001:2008 clause 8.2.2

Auditors shall not audit their own work.

was that it applied to individual auditors.

CBs are a special case (conflict of interest), but how does this apply to ISO 9001 certified organizations which sub-contract / outsource internal auditing to a firm, and that firm subsequently audits the entire QMS, including the audit of 8.2.2 from the previous audit.

but how does this apply to ISO 9001 certified organizations which sub-contract / outsource internal auditing to a firm, and that firm subsequently audits the entire QMS, including the audit of 8.2.2 from the previous audit.You would expect that, even though the organization outsources the performance of the internal audit, they are still involved with the planning and results assessment from the internal audits.

Yes, the standard talks about the independence of the internal audit process, but to verify that internal audits were conducted, according to plan, records were generated, CAR's were originated, etc... can be done by someone that is not "competent" as an internal auditor. After all, that is pretty much what people do for verification that the internal audit process is working, isn't it?

So, back to your question, someone at the organization can determine if the subcontractor performing the internal audits is doing the job appropriately.

And there it goes: The myth that an organization must have at least two qualified internal auditors is put to rest.

And there it goes: The myth that an organization must have at least two qualified internal auditors is put to rest.

Especially if it is a one person company;)

Especially if it is a one person companyA one-person company that goes for ISO 9001 certification should have their top management sacked and checked for mental sanity....http://www.ugoplayer.com//forum/images/smilies/crazy.gif

A one-person company that goes for ISO 9001 certification should have their top management sacked and checked for mental sanity....http://www.ugoplayer.com//forum/images/smilies/crazy.gif

Interesting.

As a counterpoint, most of the time, those one man operations grow into bigger companies. Since they obtained ISO registration as a young company, they don't have a bunch of bad habits to overcome later. They started off on the right foot.

A one-person company that goes for ISO 9001 certification should have their top management sacked and checked for mental sanity....http://www.ugoplayer.com//forum/images/smilies/crazy.gif

In in just about everycase, I agree that it wouldn't add a lot of value (which I assume is why you're saying what you say). Not every.

BUT IF a one-person company has to get certification in order to win a seriously important contract and/or keep their largest customer (both of which I've known), they should have their management sacked & checked for sanity if they didn't. :)

BUT IF a one-person company has to get certification in order to win a seriously important contract and/or keep their largest customer (both of which I've known), they should have their management sacked & checked for sanity if they didn't. :)I never heard of a small organization that went for certification other than the reasons you stated.

I never heard of a small organization that went for certification other than the reasons you stated.

Yup. All the reputable CBs I've worked with would say pretty much what you said, although possibly a tad more diplomatically perhaps :D

Jim, while I can see some point in the 'some one-person companies grow into big companies' line of thinking, I still don't see 'starting off on the right foot' as any kind of argument in favour of certification for a 1-person show (with the exceptions I raised).

Using the 9001 model for help with planning & implementing/improving a quality system even while tiny? Yes, great idea. But certification?
:nope:
Nope, not unless there's a reasonable justification of the extra costs incurred (after all CBs don't work for free). Now clearly, if the business would lose (or gain) a significant amount of business because of the certification, it's there. Otherwise, my advice would be for them not to go the certification route until there were better reasons/more compelling business justification.

Jane,

If a one man operation were to ask me if they should get certified I would carefully answer their questions to help them make up their own mind. I would not push.

If I am assigned to perform a registration audit for a one man operation, I would not question my CB. I would just do it. Wouldn't you?

Jane,

If a one man operation were to ask me if they should get certified I would carefully answer their questions to help them make up their own mind. I would not push.

Push? Not sure where that came from. I give people the most accurate & objective advice I can, and aim to answer their questions honestly. I will give an opinion if asked for it, but I always stress that the client is in the best position to make the decision.

If I am assigned to perform a registration audit for a one man operation, I would not question my CB. I would just do it. Wouldn't you?
I agree that if one is employed by a CB, one does the audits one is assigned to do, and of course qualified for. But 'not question'? I'm not sure - not questioning isn't really part of my nature.