O.k. I have been layed off as the Quality Manager for my company. The moved they V.P. of Sales over to Quality. He knows nothing about quality except for the processes he has dealt with in sales. They have recently been told by Pratt and Whitney Canada that they will have an audit. Within 4 weeks of me being layed off (pretty funny). Anyway they have contacting me and want me to do consulting work for them. We have come to an agreement on a rate, but I', just wondering how I go about charging for like phone calls and emails, as far as them asking me questions and such. Do I charge for an hour or do I charge for the exact time I spent on the question. Someone also said something about charging for time to and from their office. Can anyone give any info. I'm looking to make a living on this consulting thing is a temp./part time thing and I already have another full time job. I just want to make the best out of this situation.

O.k. I have been layed off as the Quality Manager for my company. The moved they V.P. of Sales over to Quality. He knows nothing about quality except for the processes he has dealt with in sales. They have recently been told by Pratt and Whitney Canada that they will have an audit. Within 4 weeks of me being layed off (pretty funny). Anyway they have contacting me and want me to do consulting work for them. We have come to an agreement on a rate, but I', just wondering how I go about charging for like phone calls and emails, as far as them asking me questions and such. Do I charge for an hour or do I charge for the exact time I spent on the question. Someone also said something about charging for time to and from their office. Can anyone give any info. I'm looking to make a living on this consulting thing is a temp./part time thing and I already have another full time job. I just want to make the best out of this situation.

Are your services going to be delivered on site? You already agreed on an hourly rate. Have you also negotiated payment for expenses that you will incur associated with the delivery of services?

For services delivered on-site, you charge for the time actually worked, rounded off to the next 0.25 hour. You can charge for mileage but not for actual travel time.

For services provided from your home, you keep a tally of actual time spent working on issues, rounded off to the next 0.25 hour.

When you invoice (in your case weekly), you prepare a fairly detailed invoice stating a brief description of work performed and with whom you worked. And as a separate line item, you spell out expenses incurred.

BTW, swallow your pride and hurt feelings, you may be knocking on their door again. Or perhaps they will. So, never burn bridges. It's a good sign that they called you. :agree1:

Best of luck!

Stijloor.

Well, I am awfully sorry you have lost your job - them putting in an unqualified person to head the effort is a predictably myopic management move. But at least you have a contract.

You need to decide if you will charge on a project or time & material basis.

This article (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/career_and_jobs/graduate_management/article4980979.ece) says — 50 per cent of projects are charged on a time-and-materials basis. The consultants charge for the time spent, usually on an hourly basis, plus costs incurred

— 40 per cent of consultancy projects are charged on a fixed-price basis

— 10 per cent of projects are charged on a risk-reward or a payment-by-results basis

If you charge by time and materials, you'd need to jot down the time you spend on their work in any shape or form. Of course communications are a part of that. Whether you charge an hour for a 5-minute phone call is up to you - I expect lawyers would. You do what you and your customers are best off with: by the hour, half-hour or 15 minutes, rounded up of course.

I have a book called The Consultant's Quick Start Guide (http://www.amazon.com/Consultants-Quick-Start-Guide-Business/dp/0787956678), that is a quick read and provides the very basic info. It says to charge according to what you would need to bring in as income, and gives worksheets to come to a figure. I see that site has used copies for sale at attractive prices.

I hope this helps!

Thanks, yes this helps both posts help.

I really did want to stuff it in their face, well the Presidents face, he's just lost. But I kept my wits about me.

Thanks, yes this helps both posts help.

I really did want to stuff it in their face, well the Presidents face, he's just lost. But I kept my wits about me.That's good - you must really be hurting now, but this actually happens a lot. This is your chance to make him sorry for letting you go, because as soon as your contract ends there will possibly be a competency vacuum. Chances are he's no fool, and realizes his "new" QA Mgr doesn't have your knowledge, but feels boxed in by circumstance. I don't know...but I do know we in QA can be among the most vulnerable in down times. As you have exhibited.

This is your moment to show off your very best character traits so you can go forward profitably in both a financial and emotional sense. Your ex-president is a client now, and should be treated as one so he can be used as a reference. Misbehaving will not help this.

I have faith in your ability to do this well.

Sorry! I don't consider you a "consultant" according to your description. By the description of the work you are expected to do, you are a temporary, freelance worker, paid at an hourly rate.

Folks who charge hourly rates for their services generally bill in 15 minute increments for work on a telephone. If a phone call takes 1 minute or 14 minutes and 59 seconds, the bill is for 15 minutes.

Outgoing phone calls by you are also charged in 15 minute increments. Unless you have some horrendous overseas phone charges, you usually absorb the cost of the phone call from the phone company.

Similarly, if you travel to and from the office where you used to work (your commuter distance), you don't charge mileage or travel time, but you DO charge a minimum on-site presence charge, usually for an hour or two, regardless if you are on site that long or only for a few minutes for something that absolutely, positively demands your physical presence. An example which comes to mind is a "contract Quality Manager," who is also the designated Management Representative (for ISO 3rd party audit or customer audit.) The auditor needs to have someone conduct the walk-through, produce documents when requested, and answer direct questions and monitor questions put to staff by the auditor.

I know of at least three companies which have been using "contract Quality Managers" for years. In two of the cases, the guy is a former full-time employee who is semi-retired and only has the one company as a client. In the other, the guy works for THREE companies located within commuting distance of his home. All companies know of each other and cooperate in requesting his time when one or the other has an "emergency" visit from a customer.

All three [contractors] charge an annual "retainer" (to maintain availability) plus day rates for full or partial on-site visits. They charge an hourly fee (billed weekly) for phone calls (customer, employer, supplier.) If they have to visit a customer or supplier, they bill 150% of day rate plus all travel, lodging, food expenses. (The justification for the extra charge is the preparation for the visit and inconvenience of being away from home base and thus precluding other business.)

Printing hard copies of any documents is usually done by giving an electronic copy to the employer and having him absorb the cost of printing such hard copies.

Certification renewals, refresher courses, association dues, etc. are all usually absorbed by the worker. The idea is to charge [and collect] sufficient fees to cover such personal expenses.

It might be instructive to read through these threads:
Consulting – Is it in YOUR Career Future? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=24543)
Contracting/Temping - Viable Alternates in Tough Times (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=26813)

Good luck!

Sorry! I don't consider you a "consultant" according to your description. By the description of the work you are expected to do, you are a temporary, freelance worker, paid at an hourly rate.

Yes I agree. You're contracting, not consulting.

Folks who charge hourly rates for their services generally bill in 15 minute increments for work on a telephone. If a phone call takes 1 minute or 14 minutes and 59 seconds, the bill is for 15 minutes.
One could perhaps, but I don't.
If someone was charging me for a 1 minute call, I would consider a 15-min bill for it rather steep. I often round up/down - ie, 1-2 very short calls I don't charge for, or I round out a couple of calls and charge for them.

Similarly, if you travel to and from the office where you used to work (your commuter distance), you don't charge mileage or travel time, but you DO charge a minimum on-site presence charge, usually for an hour or two, regardless if you are on site that long or only for a few minutes for something that absolutely, positively demands your physical presence.
Again, that depends. Some charge per hour for travel, some don't charge travel time if it's a full day on site, some just charge an hourly rate and wear any travel time incurred. Different people charge different ways.

Yes I agree. You're contracting, not consulting.


One could perhaps, but I don't.
If someone was charging me for a 1 minute call, I would consider a 15-min bill for it rather steep. I often round up/down - ie, 1-2 very short calls I don't charge for, or I round out a couple of calls and charge for them.


Again, that depends. Some charge per hour for travel, some don't charge travel time if it's a full day on site, some just charge an hourly rate and wear any travel time incurred. Different people charge different ways.
It seemed obvious to me when I wrote my post above, but in rereading, perhaps it is not so obvious a contractor only charges for a phone call where "work" takes place, NOT one to set an appointment or tell someone where you left the key to the executive toilet.

Bottom line:
EVERYTHING is negotiable and the contractor is entitled (encouraged) to make the best deal he can.

Perhaps also not so obvious:
If someone has been laid off from a full-time job but asked to come back on a part-time basis with zero benefits, the hourly wage should be MUCH higher than the comparable hourly rate for full-time work. Nobody should willingly allow himself to be exploited by accepting a lower hourly wage! That said, the quickest way to lose the job (and any good referrals) is to stretch out hours just to boost the total pay. In other words, cutting the best deal is acceptable; cheating isn't.

Could y’all briefly explain the difference(s) between contracting and consulting, and does it matter aside from semantics?

An example which comes to mind is a "contract Quality Manager," who is also the designated Management Representative (for ISO 3rd party audit or customer audit.) The auditor needs to have someone conduct the walk-through, produce documents when requested, and answer direct questions and monitor questions put to staff by the auditor.

Good luck!

Thank you Wes, its really good to reading your Post. However, I feel it is not allowed in the new standard (by reading it) to be a free lancer Management Representative.
"Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority that includes"

Could y’all briefly explain the difference(s) between contracting and consulting, and does it matter aside from semantics?

It's in the post/link provided by Wes: Consulting – Is it in YOUR Career Future? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=24543)

Consultant: An independent business person (or member of a firm of such business persons) whose primary value given is ADVICE or EDUCATION. This would include, but not be limited to, folks who advise about mergers and acquisitions and whether to add or delete product lines or enter new markets. It would also include on-site and off-site trainers of employees of an organization who come in to teach something not readily available from experts within the organization (Hazmat processes and procedures, English as a second language, etc.)
Contractor. In the sense we use here, a contractor may be completely independent or work for an agency, but he is essentially a temporary worker performing a job which would be handled by a full-time employee at an organization, but for a number of reasons which have nothing to do with this discussion (perhaps another thread?), the organization prefers the temporary status of the person fulfilling the function. Such temporary contractors include folks working as technical writers, inspectors, assemblers, internal auditors, statisticians, accountants, bookkeepers, typists, clerks, even at supervisor levels, like crew chiefs, quality managers, design engineers, process engineers, etc.

The primary difference for the purpose of this discussion is the contractor is bringing technical skill to the table, but rarely is he giving advice in planning or strategy or spending time training folks to do a task or learn a skill so he can move on to the next organization.

A secondary difference, but often blurred, is that most consultants get paid a fee for accomplishment that rarely has a direct connection to the number of hours worked or the number of pieces inspected or the number of documents written. Blurring may occur when trainers get paid according to the number of students who successfully pass a class. A consultant who comes in to help an organization achieve registration to ISO 9001:2000 may get a flat fee for educating and training the staff to be ready for a third party audit, with a bonus paid when the organization actually gets the certificate of registration. Such a consultant helps select the proper registrar, helps organization personnel write manuals and procedures, trains organization personnel to conduct a gap analysis and become internal auditors for continuing evaluation of the operations against the organization plan.......................

Thank you Wes, its really good to reading your Post. However, I feel it is not allowed in the new standard (by reading it) to be a free lancer Management Representative.
"Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority that includes"Right! However, please note there is no mention the management representative has to be a full-time employee. Any auditors out there care to challenge me on this? (Show me the shall!) An organization may say "anyone" is a member of management and no one can contradict such a declaration.

Could y’all briefly explain the difference(s) between contracting and consulting, and does it matter aside from semantics?

There's not enough difference to be wasting a lot of time on it.
Look here (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=223531#poststop) for a more complete answer.

Right! However, please note there is no mention the management representative has to be a full-time employee. Any auditors out there care to challenge me on this? (Show me the shall!) An organization may say "anyone" is a member of management and no one can contradict such a declaration.

Exactly so.

Right! However, please note there is no mention the management representative has to be a full-time employee. Any auditors out there care to challenge me on this? (Show me the shall!) An organization may say "anyone" is a member of management and no one can contradict such a declaration.


I have accepted it in the past, after review to make sure it was legit. However, I am of the opinion the new standard clarifies the intent they be employed by the organization.

I have accepted it in the past, after review to make sure it was legit. However, I am of the opinion the new standard clarifies the intent they be employed by the organization.You get a paycheck and you are employed. Doesn't have to be full-time, doesn't have to be salaried, it can be hourly part-time. Opinions have little currency in Quality unless they can be backed by data. I recall a common phrase from the early days of ISO Quality Management Standards - no anecdotal evidence. If the Management Rep produces a business card, ipso facto - he's the MR!

When I was in the investment banking business, I had a business card from every one of our clients where I was involved in grooming them for an IPO with a minimimum VP title to flash at customers and suppliers. I don't recall ANY customer or supplier asking whether I was employed full or part time, nor whether I had an additional employer (my investment bank - where I was an executive VP on the Board of Directors.) There were some months where I had titles at as many as five companies simultaneously in addition to my own investment banking title. Some of those companies I spent as little as 3 or 4 hours a month on-site, the balance of effort on the phone from my office, my home, or from another client. Because my tenure at the investment bank spanned the advent of desktop computers, at first I phoned in dictation to a recording for stenos to transcribe and type up. Only after 1985 did I type up contracts or reports on my own computer. Depending on my purpose, the report might be typed on our investment bank letterhead or one of the client's, using my temporary title for that client.

For all legal purposes, in terms of authority and being able to bind the client company to anything I wrote or said to a customer or supplier, our investment banking contract with the client clearly spelled out those authorities.

My pay, of course, was not hourly from the client, but my commission and bonus on the completion of the IPO.

I have accepted it in the past, after review to make sure it was legit. However, I am of the opinion the new standard clarifies the intent they be employed by the organization.

I disagree.

A business could appoint the owner of the local burger stand as a member of their management if they chose to - it's their business.

If an auditor took the tack you're suggesting, I'd protest and if necessary ask for a ruling on it.

You get a paycheck and you are employed. Doesn't have to be full-time, doesn't have to be salaried, it can be hourly part-time. Opinions have little currency in Quality unless they can be backed by data. I recall a common phrase from the early days of ISO Quality Management Standards - no anecdotal evidence. If the Management Rep produces a business card, ipso facto - he's the MR!

When I was in the investment banking business, I had a business card from every one of our clients where I was involved in grooming them for an IPO with a minimimum VP title to flash at customers and suppliers. I don't recall ANY customer or supplier asking whether I was employed full or part time, nor whether I had an additional employer (my investment bank - where I was an executive VP on the Board of Directors.) There were some months where I had titles at as many as five companies simultaneously in addition to my own investment banking title. Some of those companies I spent as little as 3 or 4 hours a month on-site, the balance of effort on the phone from my office, my home, or from another client. Because my tenure at the investment bank spanned the advent of desktop computers, at first I phoned in dictation to a recording for stenos to transcribe and type up. Only after 1985 did I type up contracts or reports on my own computer. Depending on my purpose, the report might be typed on our investment bank letterhead or one of the client's, using my temporary title for that client.

For all legal purposes, in terms of authority and being able to bind the client company to anything I wrote or said to a customer or supplier, our investment banking contract with the client clearly spelled out those authorities.

My pay, of course, was not hourly from the client, but my commission and bonus on the completion of the IPO.

I am sympathetic to your premise. As I said, I used to accept the standard allowed for a contract employee relationship as Mgt. Rep., but I made sure it was not just window dressing.

However, we have to reconcile that the standard changed the wording this time. It went from:

Top management shall appoint a member of management who...

Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who...

We have to assume that was not an idle, arbitrary change. What are they trying to say (and why didn't they make it clear?). I think there may still be room for a small company to hired an independent contractor to play this role, but I would look for definite evidence that he is actively involved in management. I think it eliminates the weak situations where a contractor comes in for Mgt. Review meetings and plays no significant role. We will have to see how this unfolds.

I am sympathetic to your premise. As I said, I used to accept the standard allowed for a contract employee relationship as Mgt. Rep., but I made sure it was not just window dressing.

However, we have to reconcile that the standard changed the wording this time. It went from:

Top management shall appoint a member of management who...

Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who...

We have to assume that was not an idle, arbitrary change. What are they trying to say (and why didn't they make it clear?). I think there may still be room for a small company to hired an independent contractor to play this role, but I would look for definite evidence that he is actively involved in management. I think it eliminates the weak situations where a contractor comes in for Mgt. Review meetings and plays no significant role. We will have to see how this unfolds.

As I recall, there is a mechanism for requesting a specific interpretation from the guys is Switzerland. My caution is to be very cautious in how you word the request - as we have seen here, the topic is
akin to the one from the Middle Ages where theology scholars debated over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

I am sympathetic to your premise. As I said, I used to accept the standard allowed for a contract employee relationship as Mgt. Rep., but I made sure it was not just window dressing.

However, we have to reconcile that the standard changed the wording this time. It went from:

Top management shall appoint a member of management who...

Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who...

We have to assume that was not an idle, arbitrary change. What are they trying to say (and why didn't they make it clear?). I think there may still be room for a small company to hired an independent contractor to play this role, but I would look for definite evidence that he is actively involved in management. I think it eliminates the weak situations where a contractor comes in for Mgt. Review meetings and plays no significant role. We will have to see how this unfolds.



The new wording changes nothing. It would have been a simple thing to clarify the issue, though, but they didn't do it. If I'm the Top Dog, I can still bestow the MR title on the janitor and claim that my assigning her the responsibility is what makes her a member of management.