Title should be 9001 or 9004?

I am very new to ISO and although i have experience in Quality and the implementaiton of processes that control or support operational services I am in a quandrum over what standard I should be aiming to achieve.

I work for an organisation (public) that manages public services (example trains, busses, refuge collection) - we dont produce a produce, we manage services and produce systems and procedures to ensure that the service we provide is 1.fit for purpose, 2. delivers against our customers expectaions, 3.is efficently managed.

My question is - do I go for 9001:2008 or 9004? what are the main differences and will either one provide the same level of credability?

Thanks

E

ISO 9001 is the standard to get certified against
ISO 9004 is the standard to aspire to if you wish to pursue excellence - but you do not get certified to ISO 9001

Machrk aka KerrieAnne:bigwave:

Title should be 9001 or 9004?

I am very new to ISO and although i have experience in Quality and the implementaiton of processes that control or support operational services I am in a quandrum over what standard I should be aiming to achieve.

I work for an organisation (public) that manages public services (example trains, busses, refuge collection) - we dont produce a produce, we manage services and produce systems and procedures to ensure that the service we provide is 1.fit for purpose, 2. delivers against our customers expectaions, 3.is efficently managed.

My question is - do I go for 9001:2008 or 9004? what are the main differences and will either one provide the same level of credability?

Thanks

E

I suggest that you need to buy both and the answer will become obvious from reading them, plus you'll get a lot more knowledge that way. They are not mutually exclusive plus you should get ISO9000 the vocabulary too.

My question is - do I go for 9001:2008 or 9004? what are the main differences and will either one provide the same level of credability? Have a look at this link (http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/management_standards/iso_9000_iso_14000/iso_9000_selection_and_use.htm). ISO 9004 is the standard to aspire to if you wish to pursue excellence - but you do not get certified to ISO 9001Actually, close to a million organizations have attained certification to ISO 9001...

See? fast fingers sink posts.....:tg:

ISO 9001 is a requirements document. Your organization's quality management system can be certified to it.

ISO 9004 is a guidance document on how to get more out of your quality management system meeting the requirements of ISO 9001. There is no accredited certification for ISO 9004.

ISO 9004 is a guidance document on how to get more out of your quality management system meeting the requirements of ISO 9001.The scope of ISO 9004:2009 DIS reads:This International Standard provides guidance to organizations for achieving sustained success. It is applicable to any organization, regardless of size, type and activity.Now, tell me: why wouldn't the whole World follow this document?:tg: Who would not be interested in sustained success?:rolleyes:

The scope of ISO 9004:2009 DIS reads:Now, tell me: why wouldn't the whole World follow this document?:tg: Who would not be interested in sustained success?:rolleyes:

Maybe we've been registering companies to the wrong standard.............:lmao:

My question is - do I go for 9001:2008 or 9004? what are the main differences and will either one provide the same level of credability?

Howste has explained the difference in a nutshell. You can get certified to 9001. You cannot be certified to 9004.

My advice: do not buy or read 9004 at this point, it will almost certainly confuse you. And it's about to change dramatically - it is under major revision and due for re-release late this year.

Focus on ISO 9001:2008. [/QUOTE]

Howste has explained the difference in a nutshell. You can get certified to 9001. You cannot be certified to 9004.

My advice: do not buy or read 9004 at this point, it will almost certainly confuse you. And it's about to change dramatically - it is under major revision and due for re-release late this year.

Focus on ISO 9001:2008. [/quote]


Jane, I usually agree with you, but this time, you could not be more wrong!

ISO 9004 is a fabulous and underutilized standard. ISO 9001 is only a shell and minimal summary. A full steak dinner vs. a dry cold sandwich and chips.

Since the full ISO 9001 standard is clearly incorporated in the ISO 9004 book, and since it includes a LOT of additional good stuff, I would advise the OP to buy and read the ISO 9004. The text inside the text boxes is mandatory, and the stuff outside the boxes is extra explanatory info. Not confusing at all!

Reading the whole thing, makes the whole program much more clear to new people. I don't understand why this excellent document gets so little use. It would eliminate much of the debates on this forum over ISO if everyone simply read it.

My two cents, but I have never had any client come back and say they read it, but...nah...it's no big deal. Not once.:2cents:

The scope of ISO 9004:2009 DIS reads:Now, tell me: why wouldn't the whole World follow this document?:tg: Who would not be interested in sustained success?:rolleyes:


Amen...AMEN...and AMEN!!!!

If you still have not read it, get a copy and read it. Then, tell me it was no big improvement...

Helmut

I nearly wrote in my last post something to the effect of 'but I know that some will disagree, particularly Helmut' :lol:

My opinion is that 9004 is 'underutilised' for very good reasons ;) I think the format & layout makes it particularly confusing... You might think that a minor detail. I completely disagree.

And I also know that all the text of ISO 9001 is included in it, which from a $ point of view is good. BUT I still maintain it's hard to use, confusingly laid out and not 'user-friendly' at all, at all. And that may well be why it "gets so little use" -- as you yourself admit!

My two cents, but I have never had any client come back and say they read it, but...nah...it's no big deal. Not once,

And funnily enough, I've never had that experience. Not once. In fact, quite the opposite from my clients! (And no, I didn't tell 'em what I thought of it first, either.)

Hence my advice to ignore it. Just goes to show how different people are, no? ;)

On this one, Helmut, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I'm really looking forward to the new version. Perhaps we'll be able to agree on that one, as we do on so many other things. :lol:

...

My opinion is that 9004 is ...particularly confusing... I maintain it's hard to use, confusingly laid out and not 'user-friendly' at all, at all. And that may well be why it "gets so little use" --

And funnily enough, I've never had that experience. Not once. In fact, quite the opposite from my clients! (And no, I didn't tell 'em what I thought of it first, either.)

Hence my advice to ignore it. Just goes to show how different people are, no? ;)

On this one, Helmut, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I'm really looking forward to the new version. Perhaps we'll be able to agree on that one, as we do on so many other things. :lol:


...gee, Jane...odd that we have such a different view...could it be because the folks in Australia are south of the equator, so they are upside down...so they see everything from a different perspective? :notme:

(I spent 8 weeks in your beautiful country many years ago, and upside down or not, we could learn a lot from them Aussies...):cool:

I can see that Jane is an antipodean... :lol: I personally believe that using the current version of ISO 9004 is much better using no guidance at all. Many of the crazy things that uninformed people implement in their systems to "meet ISO requirements" can be avoided by reading this document.

Of course, like Jane, I'm always interested in something better.

using the current version of ISO 9004 is much better using no guidance at all.

You make a very good point, Howste. OK guys, I'll concede that one.

...gee, Jane...odd that we have such a different view...could it be because the folks in Australia are south of the equator, so they are upside down...so they see everything from a different perspective? :notme:

:topic:

Mayhap you're right Helmut but it depends on your point of view of course. There are other ways of mapping the world than putting north always at the top (just 'cos the prevailing view arose from a so Europe-centric past doesn't mean it's 'right'). :lol: In fact, some maps (http://flourish.org/upsidedownmap/)show the USA at the bottom. :yes: We're quite fond of McArthur's Universal Corrective Map of the World actually. :lol:

Glad you enjoyed being here though. I've travelled quite a lot in the USA (mainly the western states) & enjoyed them too.

Have a look at this link (http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/management_standards/iso_9000_iso_14000/iso_9000_selection_and_use.htm). Actually, close to a million organizations have attained certification to ISO 9001...

See? fast fingers sink posts.....
Oops typo - should have said you do not need to get certified to ISO 9004 ...

Actually I don't mind ISO 9004 - it has some really interesting material in it ... but some people are afraid if they move toward ISO 9004 that their CB will starting using that as the measuring stick instead of ISO 9001

Having seen the output from ISO's TC 176 SC2 meeting in Tokyo in Feb 2009 it looks like they are considering ISO 9004 concepts for ISO 9001 - 2015 or 2016 or 2017 whatever it ends up eg Knowledge Management got a mention in the discussion agenda but is not really in ISO 9001 2008 but is in ISO 9004 from memory:rolleyes:

Maybe we've been registering companies to the wrong standard.............:lmao:Well, over the years, many have tried (AND FAILED) to establish certification/assessment/attestation schemes against ISO 9004. One of the latest attempts came from IQNET.

Rumor has it that the TC 176 is considering the 2009 revision of ISO 9004 it's last attempt. If deployment/usage (read sales) of ISO 9004:2009 does not gain traction, this document might be cancelled in the future and go to "ISO-heaven". Personally, I would be surprised if the TC 176 decided to cancel ISO 9004, for lack of sales. History shows that most of the guidance documents, developed and maintained under the auspices of TC 176 under-perform (in terms of sales and market interest) and they are not made obsolete. Click here to view a detailed listing of status of the TC 176 work items, including obsolete documents. (http://www.tc176.org/pdf/N817R7DocumentStatusReport_June2008.pdf)

Thanks for all the info - appreciated - currently reading ISO9000 by Hoyle, so this will help with my knowledge