I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the committment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.

*sigh*

just a little rant, thanks for reading.

Welcome to the club Scott! Or maybe I should join you, because I am relatively new. :D

Here, top management commitment plays a very critical role.

Low commitment, high pressure.

High commitment, low pressure!

And all the pressure I'm talking about is on the Management Representative (MR). :lol:

Ciao.

*sigh*

It's clear, not for the first time, why you say you're "Not out of the crisis."

This is actually a common enough theme. Chances are good that the others honestly believe they have nothing needed from them. If that is the case but the facts don't support it, they'll need to be eddicated. The hand holding will need to cease in order to exhibit management commitment.
:2cents:

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the committment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.

*sigh*

just a little rant, thanks for reading.

Though I'm not the MR, my boss is and I feel both your pain... As Sam4Quality said, you are not alone, my friend. :nope:

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.Be careful, because the slogan sends the "wrong message". Everyone should care.

Be careful, because the slogan sends the "wrong message". Everyone should care.

"should"

funny word

how many times does that appear in ISO9001?

Throw it all up here pal!

This place is our agony aunt, lighten your chest! :)

Ciao. :cool:

Be careful, because the slogan sends the "wrong message". Everyone should care.

People should do the right things because they're the right things to do, and not because of what "ISO says." If Scott's situation is such that people in his company aren't doing the right things, there's been a failure of leadership. I think that the MR should be the one who cares about taking care of the standard, and everyone else (assuming conscientious leadership) should be concerned with doing what they're expected to do in their jobs.

A well designed QMS should work effectively by people performing the work they are expected to. Everyone should care about the QMS, and showing it, by having the discipline to follow the processes and initiating improvement, when warranted.

A well designed QMS should work effectively by people performing the work they are expected to. Everyone should care about the QMS, and showing it, by having the discipline to follow the processes and initiating improvement, when warranted.

My point was that as far as a QMS being a specific entity is concerned, no one outside of the MR needs to know anything about it if leadership has done its job.

People should do the right things because they're the right things to do

Funny you should say that, Jim. That is basically the point of my entire orientation training, and refresher training every year. Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

Funny you should say that, Jim. That is basically the point of my entire orientation training, and refresher training every year. Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

Steel,

Jim's been to your class..:D

Stijloor.

My point was that as far as a QMS being a specific entity is concerned, no one outside of the MR needs to know anything about it if leadership has done its job.

what is this leadership you speak of?

what is this leadership you speak of?

The person who runs the company.

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

If I wore that shirt no one would get it. I'd just get a bunch of blank stares and nods of agreement. lol.

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the committment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.

*sigh*

just a little rant, thanks for reading.

Hey Scott, have a cycling jersey made with that slogan on it, put it on and ride your bike to work. Heck, ride through the office. NOW you'll get attention! :lol:

Stijloor.

The person who runs the company.


:lol:

good one, Jim.

My point was that as far as a QMS being a specific entity is concerned, no one outside of the MR needs to know anything about it if leadership has done its job.

Jim, Your absolutely right. I have seen this in other companies and I think it's pretty wide spread. Upper management wants ISO so they can wear it like a medal, but don't want to do any of the work that goes into an effective QMS. The company must have a level of discipline to address those who do not perform their duties. In far too many cases, I've seen top management look the other way so as not to be the bad guy and when the MR brings it up, management pawns it off on them. I had one Manager who was looking for "people to jump in and solve problems". He sort of got angry when I told him that his inaction on certain problems was causing the problems that I keep jumping in to solve.

I believe that the role of a Quality manager can be interpret in many different ways. One of this is to be “only” responsible for certifications.

Another way is that he/ she is catalyst for processes improvement. Quality Manager is responsible for addressing and analyzing processes for aligning business strategies and customer expectations with company processes.

If continual improving is not our company priority than we can fight and wait until the bad performances of processes will decrease market share and hence incomes. Then improving can only be the priority.

Good luck my fellows!

P.S.: ScottK, Please tell us about the reaction of top management staring at your T-shirt!

After reading this, after Easter I plan to go back and give big hugs (metaphorically speaking) to a number of my clients.

Because they're top management (MDs, directors, company owners, etc) but they DO care. And they DO provide leadership. And yes, they do stuff (and want their people to do things) because those are the right things to do, and the things that need to be done. They don't 'just do it for ISO'.

I've spent quite some time this week working on how to simplify one of the most klutzy, document-heavy, bureaucratic, nitpicky and impractical, inflexible and downright awful system I've seen in a while. Certified, yes. Functional, practical and user-friendly? Hah! :lmao: It would be funnier if I didn't think about the time, effort and $$ spent on this behemoth.

And I'll just bet someone might have complained that 'no one cares about quality' on this one too. Sometimes we also need to look in our own back yard, not blame all on 'management'.

The oxygen I need is wasted on managers like that. :frust:

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the committment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.


Question: what result do you expect?

Change? This won't do it - possibly the reverse. (They're likely to say to themselves yes, of course. That's what you're here for. )

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the committment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.

*sigh*

just a little rant, thanks for reading.
Scott,
Something that we have done is declared every Wednesday "Quality Day". The 1st Wednesday is focused on Engineering, 2nd Suppliers, 3rd Factory, and the 4th customer.
After reviewing the issues (presentations) then Open CAPAs are reviewed. This has been a mandate by the president of our company. All parties involved (directors/managers) are involved in these meetings. This has been working very well for awareness of the issues and being proactive in getting is issues solved. It has also gotten people out of their silos to be able to understand the bigger picture.

Phil

Scott,
Something that we have done is declared every Wednesday "Quality Day". The 1st Wednesday is focused on Engineering, 2nd Suppliers, 3rd Factory, and the 4th customer.
After reviewing the issues (presentations) then Open CAPAs are reviewed. This has been a mandate by the president of our company. All parties involved (directors/managers) are involved in these meetings. This has been working very well for awareness of the issues and being proactive in getting is issues solved. It has also gotten people out of their silos to be able to understand the bigger picture.

Phil

I'm glad if this works for you, but it sounds like management review to me, and means that Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday are not quality days. :D

Call it Management Review, call it 20% Quality, call it whatever, the best this part is that we have Top Management support. Top Management (Non)support is something that others seem to be frustrated with.

Phil

Call it Management Review, call it 20% Quality, call it whatever, the best this part is that we have Top Management support. Top Management (Non)support is something that others seem to be frustrated with.

Phil

You're right--management support is the thing. :agree1:

Ever since I was blessed with the task of being the MR I have tried to get every person involved in our goal of constant improvement.(I work for a small company). They all seem to be very interested as far as making decisions goes - due to the illusion of authority I think, but they seem to loose that interest when it is time for responsibility. Corrective and Preventive Action requests and opportunities for improvement are a low priority to most of our employees. I too feel like I am trying to push a rope down the road sometimes.

You're right--management support is the thing. :agree1:

Nooooooooooooo, it's not management support, it's management committment that's important. With committment will come support and not the other way around.

Nooooooooooooo, it's not management support, it's management committment that's important. With committment will come support and not the other way around.

Support is evidence of commitment; commitment (i.e., a promise or pledge) isn't evidence of support.
"Commitment" is a noun; "support" (in this sense) is a verb. Give me action any time.

I have seen companies with good and poor commitment. The proposed scenario is an example of poor management commitment.

Without Top Management support the system would not be effective and eventually the ISO certification would be at risk if the issue prevails. Rather than a shirt I would recommend a previous meeting with your Management Rep and plant manager or facility director to discuss this situation ahead to the management review and warn about your cocerns and how they could affect the company. Then bring up our concerns again in the Management Review meeting. :whip:

I hope this helps, if not take some aspirins for the head ache :bonk:

Greetings from Mexico
A. Rios

Support is evidence of commitment; commitment (i.e., a promise or pledge) isn't evidence of support.
"Commitment" is a noun; "support" (in this sense) is a verb. Give me action any time.


For breakfast which was supportive
a. the pig
b. the chicken
c. the cook

For breakfast which was committed
a. the pig
b. the chicken
c. the cook


Phil

Support is evidence of commitment; commitment (i.e., a promise or pledge) isn't evidence of support.
"Commitment" is a noun; "support" (in this sense) is a verb. Give me action any time.

I think I've read 9001 at least once, yeah I'm pretty sure I have and I haven't seen "support" in it but I have seen commitment and I have to audit committment and management has to demonstrate commitment so it must have a slight bit more importance than support.

And as you said..."support is evidence of commitment" so therefore committment does come 1st.

I think I've read 9001 at least once, yeah I'm pretty sure I have and I haven't seen "support" in it but I have seen commitment and I have to audit committment and management has to demonstrate commitment so it must have a slight bit more importance than support.

And as you said..."support is evidence of commitment" so therefore committment does come 1st.

You don't believe that there can be commitment without support? If you define "commitment" as including or inevitably causing support, you've constructed a tautology. A CEO can say "I'm committed to having an effective QMS," thereby making a commitment. If support doesn't follow, that doesn't mean the commitment hasn't been made; it means that there was a commitment without support. By their deeds ye shall know them.

For breakfast which was supportive
a. the pig
b. the chicken
c. the cook

For breakfast which was committed
a. the pig
b. the chicken
c. the cook


Phil

I don't know. I had Wheaties for breakfast. :tg:

While not trying to be controversial, I can remember a nation supporting me and my friends with material back in the late 60's and early 70's but not being commited to our use of it, consequently we finished in 2nd place.

I can give you all of the support you desire, but I do not have to be commited to your success with it.

In a management system, like one based on 9001, we have to verify that commitment of management is in place through their support of it that can be displayed from participation in management review, establishment of policy, approval of objectives and the resources they make available. There must be objective evidence of commitment, not support, that can be verified, and reported on. In fact audit reports made by CB auditors must provide proof of that evidence for the CB's accreditation bodies to be assurred that they, the CB, are performing effective audits.

:topic:As an aside, one should take a broader view, get really familiar with the different standards and what they actually say, stay away from interpretation and base responses on experience and not quite so much conjecture;)

While not trying to be controversial, I can remember a nation supporting me and my friends with material back in the late 60's and early 70's but not being commited to our use of it, consequently we finished in 2nd place.

There was no commitment? I guess you were able to hop on a plane and come home whenever you felt like it, then. I was under the apparently mistaken impression that we had committed troops, and had committed to support the foreign government in the conflict you allude to. My bad.

Sarcasm aside, you've unwittingly presented a perfect example of commitment without support, not the other way around.

I can give you all of the support you desire, but I do not have to be commited to your success with it.
But if you say nothing of commitment and support my efforts, I'll get the job done. I know you're committed without your having to tell me that you're committed.

In a management system, like one based on 9001, we have to verify that commitment of management is in place through their support of it that can be displayed from participation in management review, establishment of policy, approval of objectives and the resources they make available. There must be objective evidence of commitment, not support, that can be verified, and reported on. In fact audit reports made by CB auditors must provide proof of that evidence for the CB's accreditation bodies to be assurred that they, the CB, are performing effective audits.

The objective evidence of commitment is support. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. Again, if a CEO gathers the employees together and says "I'm committed to building and maintaining an effective QMS," but then does nothing to support it, you still have commitment. Saying that "true" commitment always results in support is an argument that assumes its own conclusion. It's illogical, in other words.

:topic:As an aside, one should take a broader view, get really familiar with the different standards and what they actually say, stay away from interpretation and base responses on experience and not quite so much conjecture;)
Not worthy of response.

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the committment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.

*sigh*

just a little rant, thanks for reading.

Enjoy the therapy Scott! :nopity:

How many of the system's processes do you own?

If your employees see their system as Scott's Management System then you should be farming out as much of the responsibility for making it work that you can until you are left with one process to care for: internal auditing.

The CEO should be responsible for the process: "investing in continual improvement" which, of course, would include management review.

Engaging the employees in their use and improvement of the system also starts and ends with the CEO and all those that report to her or him.

I'm going to make myself a t-shirt with this slogan for the next Management Review meeting.

I wish I could say I was being a total goof, but reviewing the MR action item summary... I'm the only one with my actions items done to the commitment dates so far.
Everyone else has taken action on very little.

*sigh*

just a little rant, thanks for reading.

:2cents:
IMHO, I am completely satisfied in being the MR for my small company leading them through ISO 9001:2000, SAE AS9100, and working toward ISO 13485.

It is not an easy assignment, but many people believe that my job is the QMS and therefore, they do not have to worry about it. I am winding down my career and have learned a number of ways to do certain things some with good success and some not so good. It is an important point to understand that ISO and Other Quality System does not specify exactly how you operate your processes. It is looking to see that you are managing your process such that the results you are looking for are gained.

First goal as a MR is to be an advocate of the system and find the simplest ways to integrate the employees good habits into the system, while shedding bad habits where possible. Most employees that I work with only want to handle their products one time and are very proud of their work records.

Second goal is to facilitate and train process owners in the management and monitoring of their processes. I find most of my leadership skills useful in this arena as most of the people I work with need my direction in what really satisfies the system model within the business model we use.

Third goal is to document the processes in such a matter that employees, customers, and CB can work with them easily.

Finally, using a process and product internal audit program that indicates that what we have either an effective system or not.

Trust me, I am not the most popular MR in the world, but by managing leading, a mature QMS is developing as we are approaching year two of a documented system.

Lastly, I do not necessarily get warm and fuzzy regarding the number of findings from a CB audit when there are none or few, CB audits are really only sampling the system and does not really tell you what you need to know. I have become to really depend on internal audits performed by myself and training process owners (with my training) to actually be successful in this regard.

Here is saluting you and your efforts as a fellow MR and I am sure that you will manage and lead you team to the next plateau!