Hello All
It concerns new parts. Should we create and store the master sample if the part is not finally approved and there is only a temporary approval/release?
Thanks

Welcome to the Cove! :bigwave:

Yes, I would certainly identify and store the master sample pending customer approval.

Hello All
It concerns new parts. Should we create and store the master sample if the part is not finally approved and there is only a temporary approval/release?
Thanks

Hello,

for your own legal safety I would store this master, how will you ohterwise prove that you have produceded according to this master.

In the sense of ISo TS you have a problem if you deliver parts without the approval (but this is the normal business).

Regards,

TamTom

Yes !!!!!! :agree1:

And, perhaps for an extended amount of time, if you have the storage. I have had customers try to burn us years into a platform (usually due to new faces on the Customer end). If you can, keep these safety nets, and accompanying data, as long as possible. Have a Day ! :cool:

:thanx:
We'll do a master sample and will keep him 36 months

It is always a good idea to store master samples and the documentation pertaining to the same. The one thing that is constant in all of our businesses is change. Whether it be in personnel, material, machinery, customers, etc. The master samples give everybody common ground to go from if there any questions or problems later on.

In the sense of ISo TS you have a problem if you deliver parts without the approval (but this is the normal business).

TamTom

Common case here, too:D...but not good and may cause a big loss if qualification process is unsuccessful:confused:...

Hello All
It concerns new parts. Should we create and store the master sample if the part is not finally approved and there is only a temporary approval/release?
Thanks

I find it essential to store the 'Master sample' and copy of submitted sample too, during the period of temporary approval. On getting the final approval, the 'Master Sample', as well as your counter samples must be sealed and stored much beyond the time you transact business with the perticular customer.

Not only this, I prefer to keep samples of those items also, where the customer has altered the dimensions/design after sometime. Because I have found customers to revert to the old design, there these samples come in handy. Secondly and very importantly, this helps at a time of dispute. I have won a few.

Hope it helps

Umang :D

I find it essential to store the 'Master sample' and copy of submitted sample too, during the period of temporary approval. On getting the final approval, the 'Master Sample', as well as your counter samples must be sealed and stored much beyond the time you transact business with the perticular customer.

I don't know what you mean by "copy of submitted sample" (isn't that what a "master" sample is?) and "counter samples," but here's what the 4th Edition PPAP manual says:
The organization shall retain a master sample for the same period as the [PPAP] records or a) until a new master sample is produced for the same customer part number for customer approval, or b) where a master sample is required by the design record Control Plan or inspection criteria, as a reference or standard.The period of time required for keeping PPAP records is generally the production life of the part plus one calendar year. Thus if production of the part ceases in May of 2009, the master sample and PPAP records must be retained until the end of 2010. Individual customers may have different requirements, however. Under certain conditions the PPAP requirements allow for modifications or waivers of master sample retention.

Not only this, I prefer to keep samples of those items also, where the customer has altered the dimensions/design after sometime. Because I have found customers to revert to the old design, there these samples come in handy. Secondly and very importantly, this helps at a time of dispute. I have won a few.

Whether or not samples are retained beyond the mandatory time limit should be based on the potential risks of not having them. When space is limited and there are a lot of samples, there should be a process in place to periodically review them and discard ones that are no longer needed.

I don't know what you mean by "copy of submitted sample" (isn't that what a "master" sample is?) and "counter samples," but here's what the 4th Edition PPAP manual says:
The period of time required for keeping PPAP records is generally the production life of the part plus one calendar year. Thus if production of the part ceases in May of 2009, the master sample and PPAP records must be retained until the end of 2010. Individual customers may have different requirements, however. Under certain conditions the PPAP requirements allow for modifications or waivers of master sample retention.

'Copy of submitted samples' means some pieces from the submitted/counter samples. I retain atleast two from the lot.
PPAP gives the minmal retention period which is no bar for the maximum. One has to use his own judgement in this regard..


Whether or not samples are retained beyond the mandatory time limit should be based on the potential risks of not having them. When space is limited and there are a lot of samples, there should be a process in place to periodically review them and discard ones that are no longer needed.

You have echoed my reasons for longer retention. It helps winning at the time of dispute. I wish to site one such case. One perticular filter component, for a filter for a ship engine; was discontinued after our last supply. After a couple of years we received mail from the customer slapping a penalty of 50000 Euro since one of their filter failed on the ship, resulting in engine seizure. (They in turn were slapped a penalty of one lac Euro by their customer). I asked for a piece of the failed component, which I found was not exactly matching with my (preserved & sealed) counter samples. It is a stamped part, though matching dimensionally, but having difference in contours. After a lot of hassles, I was finally able to prove that this 'failed component' was not a produce of my dies. Thanks to our policy of longer retention, we were saved from a heavy and unaffordable penalty.

At the end of the day, every one has to decide within his own limits, for what should be the max. period of retention. There is no holy-writ on this.

Umang :D