Do you have any experience with contacts between customer of the organization and CB of the organization (for example complaints concerning organization QS)? Is it frequent situation?

Is it frequent situation?It is not that frequent, but CB's must comply with ISO 17021, which requires us to have a complaint resolution process. Part of the process is to let the certified organization know we have received a complaint about their system.

It is not that frequent, but CB's must comply with ISO 17021, which requires us to have a complaint resolution process. Part of the process is to let the certified organization know we have received a complaint about their system.

I wished it was more frequent. Customers may not be aware of the complaint provisions in ISO 17021.

Stijloor.

I wished it was more frequent. Customers may not be aware of the complaint provisions in ISO 17021.

Stijloor.So do I, but most organizations which require their suppliers to be ISO 9001 certified are utterly ignorant about the process. One of the reasons we have so many miscreant CB and auditors in the game is for the total lack of keeping them accountable via the feedback channels.

Something that the Aviation, Space & Defense ICOP Scheme is addressing via the OASIS feedback loop.
It is about time for the IAF, ISO and other stakeholders to learn (a lot) from the ICOP Scheme, while, far from perfect, is the BEST (BY FAR) Industry Enhanced Accredited Scheme for Management System Certification.

From a review, here at the Cove, there are many times clients have 'rolled over' rather than make an issue of audit findings they didn't agree with. Clearly then, there should be a much higher occurence of concerns making it back to a CB's management. That isn't happening and in this case, for the CB, 'no news' isn't 'good news'.........

From a review, here at the Cove, there are many times clients have 'rolled over' rather than make an issue of audit findings they didn't agree with. Clearly then, there should be a much higher occurence of concerns making it back to a CB's management. That isn't happening and in this case, for the CB, 'no news' isn't 'good news'.........

I do agree. And I do wish that clients were far, far more aware of the possibility of holding their CBs accountable, their right to push back/complain and that they did it more often. We might then get better standards of auditing and certification!!

One of the biggest reasons they don't do it, in my opinion, is that that they worry, for example that:

it will 'count against them'
they 'wont' get certified/pass the audit'
their auditor will be tougher on them
their auditor will get them back by issuing an NC etc etc


and so forth.

Yes, I've sat through many an opening meeting etc. where the auditor has dutifully recounted the complaints procedure. I have yet to sit through one where the auditor has ever set out to remove any of the worries above, or given them examples of how and when they might choose to express dissatisfaction or complain. Or even heard of a CB approaching their clients (not through an auditor) to get independent feedback themselves. There are still a few too many CB auditors out there who still think they have a right to act like police/petty dictators. And too few informed clients who not only know that they don't, but know how and when to do something about it if they're ever unfortunate enough to encounter such a one.

Now I'm back actively involved with a CB, I hear more horror stories (not about my CB auditors, thankfully) about auditors demanding all kinds of things!

It's a paradox that a CB is a supplier, yet most organizations don't treat them like their commodity (or other service) suppliers. under normal supplier relationships, if a supplier delivered below expectations, they'd be given a corrective action!

I know may people don't like (or know how) to address and auditor, often fearing confrontation. It's also true to say that many auditors have walked into a firestorm without them doing anything. I once encountered a CEO who threatened me with all kinds of intimidations - simply because he'd heard, secondhand, of a potential non-conformity I'd mentioned during the 'stage 1' (yes we did them, on site back in the 90's).

It can be difficult for a CB's management to decipher who has a legitimate issue over those clients who are - how can I put this diplomatically - 'high maintenance. However, if the issue cannot be resolved at the auditor level, I encourage discourse with the head office management.....

Andy, yes it's true that there are also 'high maintenance' clients - and it can also be hard for auditors faced with such. Auditing isn't always an easy job, and it's good for us to remember that, too.

Now I'm back actively involved with a CB, I hear more horror stories (not about my CB auditors, thankfully) about auditors demanding all kinds of things!

It's a paradox that a CB is a supplier, yet most organizations don't treat them like their commodity (or other service) suppliers. under normal supplier relationships, if a supplier delivered below expectations, they'd be given a corrective action!

I know may people don't like (or know how) to address and auditor, often fearing confrontation. It's also true to say that many auditors have walked into a firestorm without them doing anything. I once encountered a CEO who threatened me with all kinds of intimidations - simply because he'd heard, secondhand, of a potential non-conformity I'd mentioned during the 'stage 1' (yes we did them, on site back in the 90's).

It can be difficult for a CB's management to decipher who has a legitimate issue over those clients who are - how can I put this diplomatically - 'high maintenance. However, if the issue cannot be resolved at the auditor level, I encourage discourse with the head office management.....

It looks like this thread may have taken a turn as a result of misunderstanding the OP's question. I think he's asking about complaining to a supplier's CB, not about an audited company complaining about an auditor to their own CB.

I agree with Sidney - the ICOP scheme is ahead of the game when it comes to customer complaints regarding certified companies.

In the automotive industry it's not quite as direct, but can still be effective. Many of the automotive company Customer Specific Requirements (CSRs) require their suppliers to notify their CB if they are put on special containment. The CB is then required to raise a major nonconformity against the supplier's system that must be addressed with certain timing requirements. One of the companies that I audit is going through this process right now.

It looks like this thread may have taken a turn as a result of misunderstanding the OP's question. I think he's asking about complaining to a supplier's CB, not about an audited company complaining about an auditor to their own CB.

Well spotted Jim! Mea culpa.

not about an audited company complaining about an auditor to their own CB.For that and also for lack of satisfaction with the CB, there is a new "bill of rights": ANAB Accreditation Council Drafts Client Bill of Rights (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=32545&highlight=bill)

Originally Posted by Peters http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=312972#post312972)

Do you have any experience with contacts between customer of the organization and CB of the organization (for example complaints concerning organization QS)? Is it frequent situation?
What does QS mean here? Quality System??


Originally Posted by Jim Wynne http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=312972#post312972)

It looks like this thread may have taken a turn as a result of misunderstanding the OP's question. I think he's asking about complaining to a supplier's CB, not about an audited company complaining about an auditor to their own CB.

Although, I have never come across this kind of situation in my career as yet, I am wondering whether complaining to a supplier's CB would be crossing the line? I mean after all it is all about 'mutually beneficial supplier relationships' that we are working towards. So, why not complain, rather discuss any conflicting issues with the supplier itself and try to chalk out an action plan.

I am not really sure I am in line with the OP's query.

Ciao. :cool:

So, why not complain, rather discuss any conflicting issues with the supplier itself and try to chalk out an action plan.Business is full of instances where a "dialogue" with substandard suppliers goes nowhere fast. When that happens, it is totally appropriate to engage with the supplier's CB. See http://www.iso.org/iso/9001supchain#what_to_do_if_things_go_wrong


If your supplier has a QMS that meets ISO 9001:2000 requirements, they are required to have nominated a person (the “management representative”) to have the responsibility and authority to ensure the system is working properly. You should find out who this is, and make a formal complaint.
If you are still not satisfied with the response from your supplier, and if they are certified by an independent (third party) certification body (“registrar”), you should bring the matter to the certification body’s attention. You can find the certification body’s name by looking at your supplier’s certificate. The certification body will investigate the problems during their surveillance audits of your supplier’s QMS, or, in critical cases, may decide to carry out an additional specific investigation.
If you do not receive a satisfactory response from the certification body, and if it is accredited (see Figure 1), you should complain to the relevant accreditation body. Details of any such accreditation will appear on your supplier’s ISO 9001:2000 certificate. If you have difficulty in getting this information, you can consult the list of accreditation bodies who are members of the International Accreditation Forum on the IAF website (http://www.iaf.nu (http://www.iaf.nu/)).
If you feel that you have not received a satisfactory response from the accreditation body, and if it is a member of the International Accreditation Forum (see Figure 1), you can complain to the IAF (http://www.iaf.nu (http://www.iaf.nu/)).

Maybe my question wasn't clear enaugh. I know - my english is rather... :o

These are some typical problems:

1.Phone call to CB: "You gave ISO 9001 Certificate to XYZ?" "Yes" "Well, I have got third bad shipment from them. How can you say XYZ has quality system?"

2.A letter to CB: "I've bought a bicycle from ABC. After two month it is out of order. They say - it's very cheap and simple bicycle and they don't want to repair this. I know they have your ISO 9001 quality certificate. Don't you think it is discreditable for you?"

3.A letter to CB: "I am SQA from Automotive Firm. Last week I had external audit in my supplier production site. I found 10 major nonconformities with ISO 9001 requirements. I know they have your ISO 9001 certificate and they had surveillance audit last month. What your auditors are doing during the audit?! What are their qualifications?!"

Have you any experience with such situations?

I am going to contact CB certyfying our supplier in the near future.

I am curious, they were made aware by our supplier of repeated complaints, we had raised several times in the past against supplier's nonconforming products.
There are rules related to selection of audit samples based on organization's customer type, so I guess our cases were not audited.

When CB gets complaints records, e-mail communication between customer and supplier, they have to audit it during next scheduled surveillance or recertification audit - this explanation I get during phone converstion with CB person.

I am curious, they were made aware by our supplier of repeated complaints, we had raised several times in the past against supplier's nonconforming products.
There are rules related to selection of audit samples based on organization's customer type, so I guess our cases were not audited.

When CB gets complaints records, e-mail communication between customer and supplier, they have to audit it during next scheduled surveillance or recertification audit - this explanation I get during phone converstion with CB person.If your supplier's CB is accredited via an IAF MLA signatory AB, they must be in compliance with ISO 17021. This standard requires the following from CB's:
9.8.2 Upon receipt of a complaint, the certification body shall confirm whether the complaint relates to certification activities that it is responsible for and, if so, shall deal with it. If the complaint relates to a certified client, then examination of the complaint shall consider the effectiveness of the certified management system.

9.8.3 Any complaint about a certified client shall also be referred by the certification body to the certified client in question at an appropriate time.

9.8.4 The certification body shall have a documented process to receive, evaluate and make decisions on complaints. This process shall be subject to requirements for confidentiality, as it relates to the complainant and to the subject of the complaint.

9.8.6 The certification body receiving the complaint shall be responsible for gathering and verifying all necessary information to validate the complaint.

9.8.7 Whenever possible, the certification body shall acknowledge receipt of the complaint, and shall provide the complainant with progress reports and the outcome.

9.8.8 The decision to be communicated to the complainant shall be made by, or reviewed and approved by, individual(s) not previously involved in the subject of the complaint.

9.8.9 Whenever possible, the certification body shall give formal notice of the end of the complaints-handling process to the complainant. If the CB is not accredited, or accredited via an "alternative path", then the CB won't have to comply with ISO 17021 and, very likely, won't pay attention to the complaint. So, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that a properly accredited CB impacts the certified supplier's customers. Which should make you think twice before you cast your vote in the Should customers influence a supplier's registrar selection? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=33884&highlight=influence) thread:tg:.