Hi,

For 1 product type we have a couple of PPAP approvals for the past decade, which starts from the initial submission and followed by a couple few more due to the revision of the material source/supplier.

We have totally switched to the new material supplier and had the PPAP approved already.
My question is that if ever we have decided to use or revert back to the previous/old material, do we need to re-qualify our products and submit another set of PPAP docs?

Thanks in advance

As I recall the PPAP manual lists change of Material / material source as one of the reasons for a resubmission of the PPAP. Reverting to a previous supplier or source would require that you Re-PPAP with that source. If this should ever happen to be necessary I would contact the Customer to determine the extent of any performance related testing they might want to see. :2cents:

Hi,

For 1 product type we have a couple of PPAP approvals for the past decade, which starts from the initial submission and followed by a couple few more due to the revision of the material source/supplier.

We have totally switched to the new material supplier and had the PPAP approved already.
My question is that if ever we have decided to use or revert back to the previous/old material, do we need to re-qualify our products and submit another set of PPAP docs?

Thanks in advance

Yes.

Stijloor.

Thanks...
So I would need to treat it as a new supplier again.

Thanks...
So I would need to treat it as a new supplier again.

Things change over time. Your "old" supplier may have changed (hopefully improved?) their manufacturing processes and even their suppliers. PPAP documents must always reflect the current "state of affairs."

Stijloor.

Hi,

For 1 product type we have a couple of PPAP approvals for the past decade, which starts from the initial submission and followed by a couple few more due to the revision of the material source/supplier.

We have totally switched to the new material supplier and had the PPAP approved already.
My question is that if ever we have decided to use or revert back to the previous/old material, do we need to re-qualify our products and submit another set of PPAP docs?

Thanks in advance
You neednot submit a new ppap when you go back to old supplier.If your customer wants to see ppap during audit of your plant,show him old ppap.If the gap is too long your customer can demand new ppap.The requirement is: each source should have a ppap or one ppap can include reports pertaining to various sources.
v.j.brahmaiah

You neednot submit a new ppap when you go back to old supplier.If your customer wants to see ppap during audit of your plant,show him old ppap.If the gap is too long your customer can demand new ppap.The requirement is: each source should have a ppap or one ppap can include reports pertaining to various sources.
v.j.brahmaiah

I disagree. When you change a supplier, PPAP is required. Period.

Stijloor.

I disagree. When you change a supplier, PPAP is required. Period.

Stijloor.

I disagree. Notification to the customer is required, and the PPAP is required unless otherwise specified by the customer. See the table on page 13 of the 4th Edition PPAP manual. Note that the notification must precede the change, and the change must be approved by the customer.

I disagree. Notification to the customer is required, and the PPAP is required unless otherwise specified by the customer. See the table on page 13 of the 4th Edition PPAP manual. Note that the notification must precede the change, and the change must be approved by the customer.

I am very familiar with PPAP requirements.

Stijloor.

I disagree. Notification to the customer is required, and the PPAP is required unless otherwise specified by the customer. See the table on page 13 of the 4th Edition PPAP manual. Note that the notification must precede the change, and the change must be approved by the customer.

I agree, notification may be all that is required, but it sure is handy to do a Level 1 Warrant Only (supported by the old data - depending on how old it is) as a clear documentation of when the change was made, and that the customer really did agree with the change. Of course, the customer does not have to take the time to process a warrant if they didn't ask for it. But, at least you tried (due diligence).

Jim and Bob,

Notifying the customer (which I know is required ;)), will very likely result in a re-submission. Hence my response re-PPAP is required. If I were the Customer, there will be a re-submission. Things change quickly in supplier land and I do not want to get burned. I do not know why re-PPAP is such a big deal. The supplier should have the PPAP documents ready and maintained as living documents anyway.

These questions often stem from not willing to do the (PPAP) work that's required. :mad:

Stijloor.

Jim and Bob,

Notifying the customer (which I know is required ;)), will very likely result in a re-submission. Hence my response re-PPAP is required. If I were the Customer, there will be a re-submission. Things change quickly in supplier land and I do not want to get burned. I do not know why re-PPAP is such a big deal. The supplier should have the PPAP documents ready and maintained as living documents anyway.

These questions often stem from not willing to do the (PPAP) work that's required. :mad:

Stijloor.

If you worked in a large company where there were lots of PPAPs and you were understaffed you might feel differently. I have encountered many instances when notifications similar to the one in question didn't result in new PPAPs, particularly because the configuration has already been approved. I'll second Bob's advice to get it in writing, though, one way or another. An e-mail message will do.

If you worked in a large company where there were lots of PPAPs and you were understaffed you might feel differently. I have encountered many instances when notifications similar to the one in question didn't result in new PPAPs, particularly because the configuration has already been approved. I'll second Bob's advice to get it in writing, though, one way or another. An e-mail message will do.

An additional consideration on part of the customer is their supplier's reputation. The trust factor comes into play as well.

Stijloor.

The question was, when you revert back to old supplier is new ppap required? When there is already an approved ppap for old supplier and the gap of time is not long ,why do we require a new ppap for the same supplier and material? you can inform about the situation to your customer.He will most likely exempt you from ppap.

V.J.BRAHMAIAH:agree:

The question was, when you revert back to old supplier is new ppap required? When there is already an approved ppap for old supplier and the gap of time is not long ,why do we require a new ppap for the same supplier and material? you can inform about the situation to your customer.He will most likely exempt you from ppap.

V.J.BRAHMAIAH:agree:

It depends on the customer. If you're a tier-one to an American OEM, chances are you'll have to resubmit because they don't like to have to think about what they're doing.

It depends on the customer. If you're a tier-one to an American OEM, chances are you'll have to resubmit because they don't like to have to think about what they're doing.

If american OEMs are that stringent about PPAP, how is it their cars are only 'second class' in the world market?
V.J.Brahmaiah

If american OEMs are that stringent about PPAP, how is it their cars are only 'second class' in the world market?
V.J.Brahmaiah

I doubt if that can be attributed specifically to PPAP. PPAP has been adopted by many world class companies outside of automotive, and its irrefutable benefit is that the communication of the requirements by the customer and the process outputs by the supplier have a clear consensus and baseline.

To answer how is it their cars are only 'second class' in the world market should probably be left to a controversial forum. You will get a lot of speculation there.

If american OEMs are that stringent about PPAP, how is it their cars are only 'second class' in the world market?
V.J.Brahmaiah

They're not (in general) stringent, which is part of the problem. They do things by rote, and do their best not to let common sense get in the way.

They're not (in general) stringent, which is part of the problem. They do things by rote, and do their best not to let common sense get in the way.

That can be the case, but we can't blame the PPAP concept for that. I think one problem is the concept of the PPAP processer, found at OEMs. Those are the people whose sole job is to approve the PPAP. By having them - rather than quality engineers assigned to the product that understand the design and assembly - "grade the papers" by rote, the value is diluted.

When I was working as MR for a bearing company supplying to Delphi,I had submitted a level III PPAP .The purchase engineer of Delphi did not pass the PPAP by just scrutinising the papers.He came down to our plant which a good 1000kms away from his and verified personally some of the critical test certificates .He reconducted a GRR ,made us to design a new gauge to measure fillet radius to the last micron.He gave us spc software.

The product we supplied to them later was less than 500 PPM in defectives.

So it is important that the customer to be demanding for the quality to be good.
V.J.Brahmaiah

Things change over time. Your "old" supplier may have changed (hopefully improved?) their manufacturing processes and even their suppliers. PPAP documents must always reflect the current "state of affairs."

Stijloor.

But what if, based on the technical specs, the material didn't change?

When I was working as MR for a bearing company supplying to Delphi,I had submitted a level III PPAP .The purchase engineer of Delphi did not pass the PPAP by just scrutinising the papers.He came down to our plant which a good 1000kms away from his and verified personally some of the critical test certificates .He reconducted a GRR ,made us to design a new gauge to measure fillet radius to the last micron.He gave us spc software.

So it is important that the customer to be demanding for the quality to be good.

I think that is the idea behind the Chrysler PSO - which I like to think of as 'hyper-PPAP". They leave no stone unturned when done properly. I think there is a level of scrutiny that is appropriate for the impact of the product, or the overall overhead can become unwieldy.

As I recall, The PPAP manual also states "when in doubt ask your customer".

It is only right that you notify them that you are changing suppliers (even if it is back to the old one). Depending on your SQE, you may or may not be required to re submit. Many times if it has been less than 1 year, a submission is not needed, but it is their call one way or another.

As I recall, The PPAP manual also states "when in doubt ask your customer".

It is only right that you notify them that you are changing suppliers (even if it is back to the old one). Depending on your SQE, you may or may not be required to re submit. Many times if it has been less than 1 year, a submission is not needed, but it is their call one way or another.

OK thanks. I would expect the harder part (re-submission).

BTW, has anyone tried submitting a PPAP or PSW stating 2 or more alternative raw material/sub material suppliers? I think it would be convenient if it can be done just in case one supplier is unable to supply quantity requirements or goes out of business...
I am planning to indicate it in the "Explanation/Comments" field in the PSW stating two sub material and provide the necessary Material Test reports.

OK thanks. I would expect the harder part (re-submission).

BTW, has anyone tried submitting a PPAP or PSW stating 2 or more alternative raw material/sub material suppliers? I think it would be convenient if it can be done just in case one supplier is unable to supply quantity requirements or goes out of business...
I am planning to indicate it in the "Explanation/Comments" field in the PSW stating two sub material and provide the necessary Material Test reports.

Yes, I have done that before, but it still depends upon whether or not your SQE is OK with doing so.

In my opinion, you would need to have a legitimate reason based on known potential supply disruptions, not just convenience or that one "might" go out of business some time. They usually do not like a constant switching back and forth all the time in case it affects their product. Like everything else however it depends on the personality of your SQE and how good your relationship with them is.