I have a supplier that is tier 1 to me (we are the end customer) that sent me a PSW out of the blue. When I read the explanation is stated “Sub-Supplier or Material Source Change” with an explanation that there’re steel supplier has closed and they have changed sources.

They supposedly asked for a level 3 PPAP submission from the new source and have approved them.

I have a couple of questions, should I have received prior notice and why would I sign a PSW? There has been no fit or function change and I do not buy from this supplier. Shouldn’t this be there responsibility?

Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated.

Jkittle,
I would think your supplier has the cart before the horse here. First off, you should have been notified of the need to change a sub-supplier to your supplier and then your team would review the potential impact of this change. If significant, your company would then kick off the PPAP process.

Other comments out there?

<snip> should I have received prior notice and why would I sign a PSW? There has been no fit or function change and I do not buy from this supplier. Shouldn’t this be there responsibility? Bold above is mine.

If you are not currently buying anything from the supplier, and you have no current contract with them, there is no reason for them to get prior approval from you for anything.

They are probably doing this because in the past you have bought from them and they are updating you in case you place an order in the future.

As to your signing it, if you do it is your approval should you buy from them in the future. Whether you do sign it or not is up to you. I wouldn't do anything unless I were to place an order for a relevant product from them. At the time I placed the order I would bring up and discuss the warrant you were sent.

I think there is a little misunderstanding because I may have not been clear enough.

I buy a finished component from supplier "A" (current active supplier)

Supplier “A” buys raw material from supplier “B” for my product, supplier “B” does not supply to me.

Supplier “B” closed and now supplier “A” has gone to a new supplier “B” for raw materials.

I think I should have prior notice before the move to a new supplier even though it was a forced move.

I also don’t believe I should have to sign a warrant.

Thoughts?

Jerry

Is this 'special order' or catalogue item order? Let's assume it is 'special order' (not out of a catalogue) since PPAP is involved.

OK - Then Phil Huber (http://elsmar.com/Forums/member.php?u=100863) is correct. They *typically* should have discussed the change in their material supplier with you first.

As to signing, if the supplier is bound by contract to provide you with PPAP for any changes, then the warrant is sent to you for approval. That's why they want you to sign it and typically they want a copy of the signed warrant as their evidence that you did in fact review and approve the change. At the bottom of the warrant is a place for you to approve (or reject) and sign. It will be under 'FOR CUSTOMER USE ONLY'.

ADD: I *assume* the PPAP Warrant is from your supplier (not the sub-supplier), correct?

Thanks Guys, I appreciate your help.

Just my information since I don't have the TS-16949 standard handy, is there any clause that sates the supplier must notify the customer of any subcontractor changes prior to the change?

Maybe its in the PPAP manual.

I have a question - Can anyone say how far down the chain notification has to go and/or how it is determined? For example, let's say I'm tier 1 to Ford (gasp...) and I make a complex sub assembly which, considering everyone in the chain, has sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-suppliers (let's say 6 levels (aka tiers) to reach a raw material supplier. Let's say the tier 5 supplier changes its raw material supplier which is tier 6. What warrant or warrants should I, as tier 1 to Ford, expect?

I have a question - Can anyone say how far down the chain notification has to go and/or how it is determined? For example, let's say I'm tier 1 to Ford (gasp...) and I make a complex sub assembly which, considering everyone in the chain, has sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-suppliers (let's say 6 levels (aka tiers) to reach a raw material supplier. Let's say the tier 5 supplier changes its raw material supplier which is tier 6. What warrant or warrants should I, as tier 1 to Ford, expect?

I just deleted my first post in this thread because it wasn't accurate. The way I read the PPAP manual, the supplier (in this case) isn't required to notify the customer. Look at the requirements for notification and submission in the manual (which I don't have in front of me at the moment). It requires notification for a change of supplier involving a "nonequivalent material" and submission for an "engineering change" where material is involved.

As for how far down the chain it goes, any change at the lowest tier will require review at each subsequent level of the ladder. If supplier "E" has to notify (or submit PPAP to) supplier "D," supplier "D" will have to notify/submit to supplier "C" and so on. This is all contingent upon (A) the AIAG PPAP requirements being explicitly cited in the contract and (B) the rules for notification and submission.

Hi!

In the case of the U.S. Steel industry, GM Resale has been as surprised as any of us other customers at a steel company deciding to close their works in Gary, Indiana and use another location without notification to anyone. We found out when we suddenly could no longer successfully stamp a part without material tearing.

Violation of every quality principle? Absolutely. Do they care? Absolutely not. Automotive simply does not consume enough steel tonnage annually for even GM to have any influence at all over that industry.

At least your supplier did have the courtesy to formally inform you even if it was after the fact. :D

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the fact that I was at least made aware of the change. However I think I should have been notified of the change before hand so I could has assessed the risk, significant etc.

Then if I so desired I could have had my purchasing group formally issue sample orders against affected parts

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the fact that I was at least made aware of the change. However I think I should have been notified of the change before hand so I could has assessed the risk, significant etc.

Then if I so desired I could have had my purchasing group formally issue sample orders against affected parts

You indicated in the OP that the commodity in question is steel; if that's the case, and it's a standard type/grade, so long as they can demonstrate equivalency (i.e., that the material meets specifications), there shouldn't be a need for a big production.

If you want your suppliers to go beyond what's specified in the PPAP manual (and other applicable standards) you need to put your expectations/requirements in writing.

I agree. Thanks again

I just deleted my first post in this thread because it wasn't accurate. The way I read the PPAP manual, the supplier (in this case) isn't required to notify the customer. Look at the requirements for notification and submission in the manual (which I don't have in front of me at the moment). It requires notification for a change of supplier involving a "nonequivalent material" and submission for an "engineering change" where material is involved.

As for how far down the chain it goes, any change at the lowest tier will require review at each subsequent level of the ladder. If supplier "E" has to notify (or submit PPAP to) supplier "D," supplier "D" will have to notify/submit to supplier "C" and so on. This is all contingent upon (A) the AIAG PPAP requirements being explicitly cited in the contract and (B) the rules for notification and submission.

jim
Remember, this in the ppap manual. Supplier to customer or up the supply chain and the main customer requirements. Product/Process Change Notification: THE-1002 Table 3.1 ( this should be qualified in the SQMR):applause:





Jim remem

jim
Remember, this in the ppap manual. Supplier to customer or up the supply chain and the main customer requirements. Product/Process Change Notification: THE-1002 Table 3.1 ( this should be qualified in the SQMR):applause:





Jim remem

Could you perhaps try that again? I can't make any sense of it.