Does work instruction is mandatory

where i visit a factory for manfacturing of Mold and casting and spare parts as a consultant for ISO 9001

they have CNC machine they get the smaple from the customer and make the same


they factory manager didn't make any work instruction for
the machine and the QC inspection and how to set up the machine


because he said that the operator is qualified and aware about their machine and operation of machine and didn't need work instruction for this


is this possible ? i am afraid that auditor will be make a non confirm for this

I worked in a job shop that did not have work instructions for setting up the CNC machines. We instead had job travelers that listed the manufacturing steps and requirements of the part, such as tolerances.

The tolerances are the most important part: there should be some type of instruction for communicating the conditions: size, etc, for critical quality aspects of the part. Do they have something of this kind?

they only do this :

1- the designer make the design and determine the tollarance and then send the design to the operator to start

and the operator setting the machine as design and as his experience

How is the tolerance determined?

If the operator is working off of a drawing, whether supplied by the customer or not, this could suffice as work instructions as long as the manufacturer can show the results are consistently satisfactory.

Does the end customer have other requirements? You said this was an ISO 9001 operation; standard specific requirements are minimal, but customer requirements are still important. An outside auditor will likely ask where the quality requirements originate.

there are not customer requirement

the customer offer the sample to make the same of it

and the factory make a sample and send it to customer

or if the customer is didn't require a sample only sign on the design for approve

then the designer upon his experience with material determine the tollarance

=======================

i will a traveller job order with the quantity and the specification determine by the company and attached with the design

so the operator will get the job order and the design

and record the measurements and any other notice in the traveller job order

thanks

they only do this :

1- the designer make the design and determine the tollarance and then send the design to the operator to start

and the operator setting the machine as design and as his experience
If a document which mentions all product requirements is available with the operator and the operator is experianced then the work instruction is not mandatory.
V.J.Brahmaiah

Does work instruction is mandatory

where i visit a factory for manfacturing of Mold and casting and spare parts as a consultant for ISO 9001

they have CNC machine they get the smaple from the customer and make the same


they factory manager didn't make any work instruction for
the machine and the QC inspection and how to set up the machine


because he said that the operator is qualified and aware about their machine and operation of machine and didn't need work instruction for this


is this possible ? i am afraid that auditor will be make a non confirm for this

the work instruction should be approach in general term, not on the basis of specific adjustment for the particular item.

just have a work instruction on how the operation starts until it finishes (same as with the inspection). dont complicate the work instruction.

it just telling you what you do, not on what are you doing on every item.

assuming that the operator is indeed have experience, if i am the auditor, i will ask, "what if the operator is not available? how will another person operate the machine?"

those simple questions will surely sets the team with observation or NC.

:agree1::notme:

I would approach this as a three-person team: The customer, the consultant, and the auditor. All have very similar goals: to develop the Quality Management System (QMS) for producing good product efficiently and profitability.

The questions may flow as follows: Is a procedure necessary? Do they have inconsistencies that matter when operating/ setting up the equipment? What is the risk of putting in a wrong setup parameter? Would the process be better off having some things standardized in a procedure, or would it just weigh the system down?

Some of the others who operate CNC equipment are a better judge of this. But I do know that depending on the age of the equipment, the operating system, and the experience of the operator, equipment can range from extremely simple to quite involved for setup.

If the consultant can help guide the customer through these thought-processes, then the customer will know if they need something else or not. I guess I would encourage devoting time to really looking at the process, and allowing the process to gauge what is necessary. :)

Does work instruction is mandatory

where i visit a factory for manfacturing of Mold and casting and spare parts as a consultant for ISO 9001

Are you going to compensate the people for the answers they give you?

Does work instruction is mandatory

where i visit a factory for manfacturing of Mold and casting and spare parts as a consultant for ISO 9001

they have CNC machine they get the smaple from the customer and make the same


they factory manager didn't make any work instruction for
the machine and the QC inspection and how to set up the machine


because he said that the operator is qualified and aware about their machine and operation of machine and didn't need work instruction for this


is this possible ? i am afraid that auditor will be make a non confirm for this
You are perhaps handling a very mature manufacturer who does not need a work instruction for the CNC machine operations. In such a case the knowledge, skill and experience of the operator / operators who operate the machine is an evidence for the ability to produce parts per requirement.
Added to this are the complaints and process non conformances records review which perhaps show good and consistant performance.
Just the presence of a work instructions does not ensure optimum performance. In such a case as you have described, it is the skill of the auditor to verify and record that indeed work instructions were not necessary. So work instruction is not mandatory my friend.

Are you going to compensate the people for the answers they give you?

thanks AndyN for your reply

i think i have my own steps twoards quality

and i do this consultant for free to get experience , it is a private work beside my main job

and i choose elsmar for encourge my experience

So work instruction is not mandatory my friend.


thanks somashekar


and i have some question also

are the
1- specification of product and the method of inspection / testing
2- criteria for product acceptance
3- criteria for acceptance the purchased material

must be documemted

also they said that they have the experience for doing testing and all operators know the criteria for product acceptance

thanks somashekar


and i have some question also

are the
1- specification of product and the method of inspection / testing
2- criteria for product acceptance
3- criteria for acceptance the purchased material

must be documemted

also they said that they have the experience for doing testing and all operators know the criteria for product acceptance


I would document the specifications and criteria for product acceptance.
Inconsistency in the use and interpretation of requirements will lead to serious trouble.

Stijloor.

thanks AndyN for your reply

i think i have my own steps twoards quality

and i do this consultant for free to get experience , it is a private work beside my main job

and i choose elsmar for encourge my experience

That's an excellent way to start out! :agree1:More power to you to do this. Keep coming back for more answers and....




please send some money to my house.......:lmao::lmao::lmao:

the work instruction should be approach in general term, not on the basis of specific adjustment for the particular item.

just have a work instruction on how the operation starts until it finishes (same as with the inspection). dont complicate the work instruction.

it just telling you what you do, not on what are you doing on every item.

assuming that the operator is indeed have experience, if i am the auditor, i will ask, "what if the operator is not available? how will another person operate the machine?"

those simple questions will surely sets the team with observation or NC.

:agree1::notme:

i agree with my kabayan. "what if the operator is not available? how will another person operate the machine?" the purpose of a work instruction is to quide, to instruct, reduce confusion and uncertainty. you can use videos if you don’t like the written guides. others use pictures in detailed step by step guides. you can use any suitable form as long as the result is effective. remeber the purpose is to guide.. nothing else...

I would document the specifications and criteria for product acceptance.
Inconsistency in the use and interpretation of requirements will lead to serious trouble.

Stijloor.
Yes,
A good process may be a paperless process, but certainly not a documentless process. The records generated during inspection / testing would otherwise have no basis to decide the acceptance. And again records are a type of documents and must be controlled.
How to do a task >>> work instructions >>> not mandatory
Specifications >>> Inspection and testing results meets specifications >>> Records of result >>> The Documents provide the evidence.

i agree with my kabayan. "what if the operator is not available? how will another person operate the machine?"

Well, hopefully they have more than one 'competent person' available to run such machines. Following a work instruction on how to operate a complex machine like this isn't going to work! Indeed, that could rapidly turn into a safety issue.

If the company doesn't have a second person, then they have a (latent) problem with resources......

You should start with the knowledge that, generally, best practices include a tooling setup chart, a tool path print, set-up procedure, operator instruction and PM procedure. If you walk up to a machine, and you didn't build it and didn't program it, how would you know that stuff?

In order to have efficient set-ups (reduced set-up time) and consistent start-ups, you should have a set-up procedure (speeds, feeds, coolant line location, coolant flow, which coolant used, etc.)

You should have an operator instruction to understand what corrections to make while running the part - such as: If a particular dimension starts to get surface finish problems than first try changing the tool. If that does not work, then the material lot is different and the spindle speed or the tool travel speed needs changed.

You should also have PM instructions to know when and what to maintain on the machine. Some people claim thy follow the manufacturer's suggested PM, but when you check what they have done versus the recommended PM, they start to qualify their stand.

Now, if one can explain how the operator knows this information intuitively from their training, then you can start to ask the question of whether any of the above work instructions are necessary. That means so intuitive that if your set-up man goes on vacation or leaves altogether, you can keep on plugging and chugging with little problem. The complexity of the work being done on the CNC machine has an impact of the degree of documentation. If you are doing essentially the same work that could be done on a drill press, then that will not require the same detail as a 10 tool set-up with a 20 minute process time.

Well, hopefully they have more than one 'competent person' available to run such machines. Following a work instruction on how to operate a complex machine like this isn't going to work! Indeed, that could rapidly turn into a safety issue.

If the company doesn't have a second person, then they have a (latent) problem with resources......

In CNC, it doesn't work that way.

You can have three set-up men - all "competent." If you do not have set-up instructions, they will set-up the job their own style, allowing inconsistency in both the output and the quality. Moreover, if a person has not set up a job before, it could take them 2 hours to figure out how to set up the job on their own, but with the instructions on the set-up written with information from the person who first set it up, you can cut it down to 30 minutes, and with less set-up scrap.

You can have a "competent" operator who runs a particular part all day long, knows the intricacies of that part, the relationship of the tools to the materials, the amount of tool wear to expect when the machine is working correctly. You can take another operator, with the same kinds of knowledge on another part and similar machine and have them run this part - and just because they are a competent operator there is no way they will have that information intuitively. That generate unnecessary scrap from incorrect tool changes and offsets.

Competent does not mean omnipotent. It is a base set of skills.

And, by the way, there is the issue of becoming competent. Without this information to train a new person of any skill set, how effective is the training going to be ("oh - I forgot to tell you about that...you will have to scrap that lot")? Will "urban legend" ("we always did it that way, but nobody remembers why") information be sufficient?

Ah, Bob. Set-up maybe, but that wasn't mentioned, and previous posts spoke of operators running the machine.....Like a lot of situations discussed here, one can always make a case for very specific instances. I was attempting to help the case for 'everything must be written down', when clearly that's not the case.....and since the specifics you cited weren't in any previously made posts, I went with the generalization.......

But in the case you described, set up, I'd agree..........

...Set-up maybe, but that wasn't mentioned, and previous posts spoke of operators running the machine..

Actually, it may be even different than that:

they only do this :

1- the designer make the design and determine the tolerance and then send the design to the operator to start

and the operator setting the machine as design and as his experience

Sounds to me as though he is going to a tool room where they prepare a program to make a mold. If that is the case, that is the part of the process where one would develop the documentation, so they likely would not have it already. But, if they continue to run that product at a later date, and they are redoing this each time, then they are wasting a lot of resources reinventing the wheel by not writing anything down - if that is truly the case.