I am enjoying this website very much and this is my first post. :bigwave:

I have been doing some ISO consulting for a year. I was hired last week as the QM for a company with around 50 people and tasked to design and implement a QMS. This is my first "real job" out of university.

On the first day I was handed a QSM with what they like to call "thump factor" some 50 pages regurgitated standard.

The Quality Manual references a little under 30 procedures.

I have begun consolidating procedures, and i am not sure if it is the correct thing to do.

For example, i have added 'planning for continual improvement' as a sub-section under my Management Review Procedure. And i have combined customer requirements, complaints, contract review, satisfaction and surveys into a procedure i am calling "customer communication"

It is getting a bit tedious, and i am not sure which way to go.

Should i just have 35 documented procedures?? or should i have 20 3+ page procedures?

Also, if anyone has any advice for me i would be happy to read it.

Welcome to the Cove! :bigwave:

It sounds to me like the QMS is way overdone for a company of only 50 folks. However, if the processes are complex, and they do a lot of variety of things, that might be okay. However....

I don't think I would just begin by chewing up their documentation. First, compare it to what they do. Do they really need a procedure for continual improvemnt? I know of one small company that is so big on CI, that they have a documented procedure for it and a CI team, and they aren't much bigger (about 65). Working with them, examine their processes and determine which procedures can go, which need revision and you might find a few that are absent. Note 2 in 4.2.1 is good advice.

You might find that they do have way, way, way too many procedure. You may also find they don't have enough.

Thank you for the reply Dave B.

perhaps i should talk a little about what we do.


We design and / or fabricate (integrate) automated control systems, mostly in the oil-field industry.

Every job is custom and unique, and we work closely with our customers.

I am finding it difficult to write "what we do" b/c it varies depending on the day!

The Manual was written *almost* to a Q1 spec. but it is long. Their opinion is that when they send it to prospective clients, it will be impressive at 50 pages.


That being said, the dern thing references a lot of procedures that i find unneccesarry. ie. preventative maintenance. can't that just be said in the QM something like..."(company) shall ensure that all applicable steps at prev. maint. are utilized etc etc....."

I have been registered for almost 3 years at a job-shop/custom place. One thing I would strongly recommend - concentrate on process!!

They likely follow the same processes over and over again. There may be a few areas where you will need some leeway to allow for those tougher customers (the custom world - they are many and tough).

We have managed to gain a foothold in having people realize that we do repeat the same process but apply it to many different products.

We design and / or fabricate (integrate) automated control systems, mostly in the oil-field industry.

Every job is custom and unique, and we work closely with our customers.

I am finding it difficult to write "what we do" b/c it varies depending on the day!


That being said, the dern thing references a lot of procedures that i find unneccesarry. ie. preventative maintenance. can't that just be said in the QM something like..."(company) shall ensure that all applicable steps at prev. maint. are utilized etc etc....."

But the processes of the business are (probably) the same day to day....all activities may not be.... So, as has been just posted - focus on process!

The idea of including everything in a manual is simply a matter of choice and aesthetics. Do you want to 'give away' your process/procedures? If no, don't include them! Do people want to be leafing through 50+ pages to find an instruction on completing a tag? Probably not.

What does management want from this system? Don't get involved with your personal preferences, although they can be used to guide an outcome.

Ok, what about an ISO Rep not making sure the ISO auditor comes in before the ISO cert expires? what do you do about customers? one company has said there is to be no business until the cert comes. How sad....

Ok, what about an ISO Rep not making sure the ISO auditor comes in before the ISO cert expires? what do you do about customers? one company has said there is to be no business until the cert comes. How sad....

I've often issued a 'letter of intent', once a client is under contract for their certification. Many purchasers will accept that!

Ok, what about an ISO Rep not making sure the ISO auditor comes in before the ISO cert expires?
I would have a real problem with that! If the ISO Rep, you speak of, is a company employee, he/she should be shown the door. If the ISO Rep is from the registrar, then the registrar should be shown the door! I don't think there is a requirement to be audited the day before your cert expires. There should be plenty of time to get this coordinated.

I've often issued a 'letter of intent', once a client is under contract for their certification. Many purchasers will accept that!


Can you give me a few examples? Thanks Andy!

Can you give me a few examples? Thanks Andy!

Er, no. That isn't appropriate, is it?

what's not appropiate? giving examples of a few "letters of intent"??? lol, you've got to be kidding...............

what's not appropiate? giving examples of a few "letters of intent"??? lol, you've got to be kidding...............

No, really. It simply says "Company X is under contract to undergo an ISO 9001 (or whatever) certification audit on x/y/09"

Ok, now you've made yourself clear. Thanks!

Ok, now you've made yourself clear. Thanks!

Yup, if I give you 'an example' - who knows what it would be used for......;)