Dear Friend

i have a case for discusion

we have purchased iron bar , for the big quantity the supplier give us a certificate of anaylsis

but when we buy a small quantity he didn't give one the certificate


where we can't do this anaylsis because it is very expensive

are we in a problem ?


==========
in the same time we didn't apply tracebility for raw material batch no. with the final product

because it is very diffcult to do this , and no customer has a requirement for tracebilty

Hii,
Your small quantity is still a part of the batch run of the manufacturer. Hence your dealer or manufacturer will get you the certificate of analysis of the batch run from which your small quantity was delivered to you. This must do good for you. A proper request should get you this and cannot be denied...
If traceability is a requirement, then the batch reference of the iron bar is vital and the certificate of analysis will have this reference of batch run of the manufacturer.

friend

we can't get a certificate for small quantity " it is a fact "

what we can do

friend

we can't get a certificate for small quantity " it is a fact "

what we can do

The practice in vogue is to get photo copy of the test certificates. The suppliers get the T.C. for every lot, and when you buy the lot the T.C. is your property. Where in the case of small quantities, he obviously can not give you the original. So ask him for a photo copy, which is equally good. I too buy tons of steel from different batches and suppliers and get a xerox of the T.Cs without any problem.

Umang :D

i know

but he didn't give us a copy of this certificate

so what we can do ?

Did you request a copy, and the supplier denied your request? I can't tell if that's the case with the information provided. If so, I would consider a few courses of action.

1) I would definitely make this denied request part of the supplier file, and include this issue in the supplier re-evaluations as per 7.4.1.

2) I would require a certificate on all future purchase orders (or other contract) with the supplier. You state that the CofA is used for product acceptance. Clause 7.4.2 states that purchasing information will describe the purchased product and...a) requirements for approval of product...

3) If they do not give you a certificate, you have to consider the material as non-conforming and I would begin the process of returning the material to the supplier. I'm sure that would get the supplier's attention, and I bet you will have a CofA in short order.

Those are my thoughts on how to handle the situation, and still protect your production.

i know

but he didn't give us a copy of this certificate

so what we can do ?

One method that always works - do not pay the bill until the certificate is received.

i know

but he didn't give us a copy of this certificate

so what we can do ?

Why is a certificate required?

Phil

he is the avialabel supplier

we have no soloution

he is the avialabel supplier

we have no soloution
Can you explain here what reason he has for not giving you a copy of the certificate of analysis ? Does he buy from an other wholesale dealer or from the manufacturer ?

this is his system

no certificate for the small quantity


for big quantity we get a copy from the certificate

this is his system

no certificate for the small quantity


for big quantity we get a copy from the certificate
You could do these .....
1. Purchase the big quantity if it is OK with your inventory system
2. Get PO terms to include certificate of analysis for small quantity (cost may perhaps include premium for certificate of analysis)
3. Approach any third party analytical lab for testing and report by providing sample.
If traceability is your requirement, any one of the above will work for you.

really friend

i try to do this

we can't buy big quantity , we buy as customer requirement

can i accept the material with out certificate as the history of supplier ?

The bottom line is you have absolutely no way of knowing the material meets your requirements, which creates quite a risk for your organization. There are numerous things you can do differently on future orders (as outlined by somashekar and me). But, what should you do with this order? What if you run nonconforming raw material? Your finished product will not meet your customers expectations, perhaps causing loss of business. The product may pose a safety or health risk if used improperly. Simply, I would reject this material and send it back unless the supplier provides the certificate you are looking for. I wouldn't put myself or organization at risk.

Actually, the supplier should be happy that you trust them enough to only receive material based on the certificate of conformance. If they are adamant about not giving up the certificate, I would strongly consider outside testing as a means to verify one of the "larger" shipments actually meets the requirements you set forth. It may not be a bad idea to spot check your supplier a couple times per year with outside lab testing. I'm sure the cost of that testing offsets the cost of potential risks.

I am interested to hear what you finally decide and how things shake out.

how i get buy a material with 200 USD and pay 400 USD for anaylsis

it is better to refused the order


tracebility is not required so we didn't do it

I may not have been too clear about suggesting outside testing. Please allow me to clarify my statement.

I would return this particular lot of material because you do not know what it is.

I would send a sample from a batch of material that I do have a certificate with. I would then compare those 3rd party results with the supplier results. This would be done twice per year as a means of keeping the supplier honest. You are only looking at spending $800 USD (400 x 2 tests per year). Not a bad price for supplier ensurance. The 3rd party test results will confirm or deny your practice of accepting material based on this suppliers certificate results, too.

this mean if i do the outside anaylis

then i will not need a certificate for each time i get the material

Salam Aliki!

1. I have seen cases where the supplier uploads their certificates to a web site so they don't need to be contacted to provide one with every shipment. The client just gets to the given site and finds the one belonging to their batch and prints them out. Ask if they do something similar, if they do, that will be really nice.

2. If you have good quality history with the supplied product, and the vendor has a good QMS you can consider exploring other acceptance methods (e,g, skip lot inspection), but I certainly don't feel comfortable with the apparent lack of cooperation of your vendor. If they can't support you on this easy task, I don't know what to expect from them on bigger issues.

You would need a certificate for every shipment you receive from this supplier, according to your current receiving procedures.

The outside testing would validate your supplier certificates. If the outside testing and the supplier certificates provide the same results, then you can be confident in the supplier certificates. I only mentioned outside testing because I wouldn't trust a supplier that doesn't provide me the CofA on "small" shipments but does on "large" shipments.

he is the avialabel supplier

we have no soloution.

this is his system

no certificate for the small quantity


for big quantity we get a copy from the certificate

It seems that you have reached an impasse with your supplier, and have no solution in sight to break the dead-lock. I have a small question: Why is it necessary to have a Material test certificate from the vendor? Does your proceedure necessitates a T.C. for all incoming materials? If yes, then you may review and modify your procedure since this is not a mandatory requirement by ISO. Have a look:
Clause7.4.3. Verification of purchased product:
The organization shall establish and implement the inspection or other activities necessary for ensuring that the purchased product meets specified purchase requirements.....

"HOW" is for the management to determine. Does your purchase order embodies all the specifications of the ordered material of 'small quantities'? If yes, then modification of your procedure order may be the solution to your problem. If not then there is no problem!

really friend

i try to do this

we can't buy big quantity , we buy as customer requirement

can i accept the material with out certificate as the history of supplier ?

Depends on two things. 1. Does your customer wants the TC? Is it mentioned in his Purchase Order? 2. Is there any complaint from 'small quantity' customer about poor quality of the raw material?

If the answer is no, then why bother.

how i get buy a material with 200 USD and pay 400 USD for anaylsis

it is better to refused the order


tracebility is not required so we didn't do it

:caution: It is'nt good to disregard a customer of low volumes. Some day he may be in high volumes, and then he will remember your support.


this mean if i do the outside anaylis

then i will not need a certificate for each time i get the material

Testing from outside agencies is good for a cross check once in a while, the frequency of the same may be decided by the management.

Umang :D