Just a funny thing...

I have been interviewing registrars for ISO9001 certification, and have thrown them all off by asking for a copy of their quality manual. All of them say no one has ever asked that, and they all have to "get back" to me. Still don't have a response on that.

Opinions?

I love the irony of your finding.

Just a funny thing...

I have been interviewing registrars for ISO9001 certification, and have thrown them all off by asking for a copy of their quality manual. All of them say no one has ever asked that, and they all have to "get back" to me. Still don't have a response on that.

Opinions?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Just a funny thing...

I have been interviewing registrars for ISO9001 certification, and have thrown them all off by asking for a copy of their quality manual. All of them say no one has ever asked that, and they all have to "get back" to me. Still don't have a response on that.

Opinions?

If you'd asked me.....it wouldn't have been a problem. Did we make your short list?

I love the irony of your finding.


I know, me too... and I'm just surprised no one has ever asked because it's common sense to me. Isn't one purpose of the quality manual supposed to be that customers can see it? Or am I totally off in la-la land?

If you'd asked me.....it wouldn't have been a problem. Did we make your short list?

Andy, does ISO 17021 require Registrars/CB's to have a Quality Manual?

Stijloor.

ISO 17021 gives CB's two options for a quality management system. Either a "modified" ISO 9001 (option 1), or a general management system, described by ISO 17021, Section 10.3. Either way, the CB should have a manual or "equivalent".

The reason why the OP is having a "difficult" time getting what she asked for is probably the fact she is dealing with lowly sales folks who, for the most part, have no clue about the CB operating system.

The reason why the OP is having a "difficult" time getting what she asked for is probably the fact she is dealing with lowly sales folks who, for the most part, have no clue about the CB operating system.

Hey! Watch it with the "lowly sales folk" comments, Sidney.....Oh, yeah..she did ask me did she?.....:lmao:

"lowly sales folk"
"lowly sales folk"
"lowly sales folk"

:lmao:

I'm curious about your reason for asking for a manual.

"lowly sales folk"
"lowly sales folk"
"lowly sales folk"

:lmao:

I'm curious about your reason for asking for a manual.

Now, Randy. When you say it, it's OK 'coz you're only a lowly training boy....:lmao: Been there, done that! It's cool, bro'!

Just a funny thing...

I have been interviewing registrars for ISO9001 certification, and have thrown them all off by asking for a copy of their quality manual. All of them say no one has ever asked that, and they all have to "get back" to me. Still don't have a response on that.

Opinions?
The irony is the audit offices will fail if some one audits them for QMS.
V.J.Brahmaiah

The irony is the audit offices will fail if some one audits them for QMS.
V.J.Brahmaiah

That's unlikely, since they are audited on a regular basis by their accreditation bodies. As Sidney alluded to, it's possible that the people LexieB is asking are just unfamiliar with the process they would use to send a copy of the manual to their potential customer.

maybe client wants to see the procedure/ policy on non conformance!!:cool:

sales folks who, for the most part, have no clue about the CB operating system.

Shouldn´t the sales folk (left out the lowly :lmao:) have the competence to do their job ? Doesn´t 6.2.2 a) through e) apply to them ??
Or is it a "I don´t practice what I preach situation ?"

The irony is the audit offices will fail if some one audits them for QMS.
V.J.Brahmaiah

I don't think you're at all correct and that you comment is in poor taste.

The CB I work for is audited on a regular basis by many organizations, both to ISO/IEC 17021 and ISO 9001. We don't 'fail' (whatever that means) any audit and have maintained our accreditation when others have lost theirs as a result of those audits.

Please don't cast aspersions!

maybe client wants to see the procedure/ policy on non conformance!!:cool:

And they're welcome to do that, if it's requested....

Shouldn´t the sales folk (left out the lowly :lmao:) have the competence to do their job ? Doesn´t 6.2.2 a) through e) apply to them ??
Or is it a "I don´t practice what I preach situation ?"

Very true, Ted! It's probably true to say that there are some CB's (in the USA, in my experience) who do have a sales force who don't know much about certification and its processes etc., but they are often quite aggressive with their sales tactics. Of course, the people they 'go after' are often also clueless about the process of certification too, so are easily 'sold'.....

Just a funny thing...

I have been interviewing registrars for ISO9001 certification, and have thrown them all off by asking for a copy of their quality manual. All of them say no one has ever asked that, and they all have to "get back" to me. Still don't have a response on that.

Opinions?

first of all, you realy ask tough questions :lmao:

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't give out copy's of our QM also, just showing it as a prove we indeed have it. We have all on our intranet, so I bring laptop and projector and show them real life situation looking for documents, records etc... :cool:

There is also an irony issue: if they have ISO9001 cert on their wall, it should mean that they have QM, should save us some time checking it all out.
But we all know this is very flexible term :D

I remember an audit where guys made 3 questions on each subject they could think of:
1) actual question... how do you do XYZ?
2) do you have it in written form?
3) show it, and show all documents that relate to it :rolleyes:

At the end of the day I told them: our QM was build by professional outsourcing consultant, by using ISO9001 as template. FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, YES WE HAVE ALL THE :bonk: PROCEDURES :argue:

But anyhow, not to be able to present documentation is the reason to give them less credit, to say the least.

:bigwave:

first of all, you realy ask tough questions :lmao:

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't give out copy's of our QM also, just showing it as a prove we indeed have it. We have all on our intranet, so I bring laptop and projector and show them real life situation looking for documents, records etc... :cool:

There is also an irony issue: if they have ISO9001 cert on their wall, it should mean that they have QM, should save us some time checking it all out.
But we all know this is very flexible term :D

I remember an audit where guys made 3 questions on each subject they could think of:
1) actual question... how do you do XYZ?
2) do you have it in written form?
3) show it, and show all documents that relate to it :rolleyes:

At the end of the day I told them: our QM was build by professional outsourcing consultant, by using ISO9001 as template. FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, YES WE HAVE ALL THE :bonk: PROCEDURES :argue:

But anyhow, not to be able to present documentation is the reason to give them less credit, to say the least.

:bigwave:

Petar - the OP is asking a Certification Body for their quality manual.......

If I may be overly-analytical for a moment (and maybe just a stick in the mud :(), but as someone else proposed, why ask for the business/quality manual in the first place? It would just never dawn on me to do so.

I do see the irony in not being able to provide it, but I can't see how reading it would point me to selecting the right registrar to work with.

Would it be fair to compare it to selecting a plumber? I don't particularly care to see all the great things you SAY you'll do for me and my dirty old pipes. I'd rather see what you have actually done for others like me and see that you are a professionally recognized (licensed/insured) entity.

Heresy? Dead horse? You be the judge.

Neil - your 100th post! A good one too! Excellent points!

If I may be overly-analytical for a moment (and maybe just a stick in the mud :(), but as someone else proposed, why ask for the business/quality manual in the first place? It would just never dawn on me to do so.

I do see the irony in not being able to provide it, but I can't see how reading it would point me to selecting the right registrar to work with.
Would you ask to see any other supplier's quality manual? How is a CB different from any other supplier of products or services?

Would it be fair to compare it to selecting a plumber? I don't particularly care to see all the great things you SAY you'll do for me and my dirty old pipes. I'd rather see what you have actually done for others like me and see that you are a professionally recognized (licensed/insured) entity.
If a plumber advertised herself as being ISO 9001 registered, would you be interested in seeing the quality manual, if only from the standpoint of curiosity as a quality professional? I sure would (unless it were an emergency situation, of course).

I like to look at quality manuals, because over the years I've seen a correlation between the quality of the manual and the general quality of the services of a company. All else being equal, I would choose a supplier whose manual was well-written and showed evidence of an actual effort to build an efficacious quality system over a supplier whose manual was an amalgam of poor spelling and grammar and parroting of the standard.

At the same time, I've seen what I considered very good manuals proffered by businesses who couldn't get anything else right--a sign that the manual was written by a consultant. The QM is one piece of a big puzzle, but not one that should be overlooked for any supplier.

Would you ask to see any other supplier's quality manual? How is a CB different from any other supplier of products or services?


This is my point EXACTLY. I have brought the issue up before. I find it incredibly ironic that the whole point behind ISO principles is verification, questioning, proof, etc., yet somehow the "ISO Gods" put a stamp on someone (in this case, the CB) as the omniscient medium and I don't need to verify anything extra? I don't think so, ESPECIALLY since there is absolutely no official rating system for the registrars to begin with other than a 5 year old Quality Digest survey and none of these people are cheap! Given the above, why is it so weird that I asked for a Quality Manual?

I also asked them about how they train their auditors, what are the selection criteria, employee turnover, etc.

In addition, I want to know why they charge different prices? They might say "well, we're #", but with no objective evidence, it could be that they got lucky by word of mouth (or who knows how else)... they may not necessarily provide superior service. The ONLY criteria I have to go by in choosing a registrar for the first time is industry recognition and price... those are not very good options as far as I'm concerned!

This is my point EXACTLY. I have brought the issue up before. I find it incredibly ironic that the whole point behind ISO principles is verification, questioning, proof, etc., yet somehow the "ISO Gods" put a stamp on someone (in this case, the CB) as the omniscient medium and I don't need to verify anything extra? I don't think so, ESPECIALLY since there is absolutely no official rating system for the registrars to begin with other than a 5 year old Quality Digest survey and none of these people are cheap! Given the above, why is it so weird that I asked for a Quality Manual?

I also asked them about how they train their auditors, what are the selection criteria, employee turnover, etc.

I'd be happy to answer these and other questions, given the opportunity! And to discuss what makes great customer service and 98%+ client retention.....

In addition, I want to know why they charge different prices? They might say "well, we're #", but with no objective evidence, it could be that they got lucky by word of mouth (or who knows how else)... they may not necessarily provide superior service. The ONLY criteria I have to go by in choosing a registrar for the first time is industry recognition and price... those are not very good options as far as I'm concerned!

Can we have that conversation.....?

I'd be happy to answer these and other questions, given the opportunity! And to discuss what makes great customer service and 98%+ client retention.....


We can definitely discuss, but most people stick with the first registrar they pick (correct me if I'm wrong), because most people just want that Cert. If they get it and the price is right, the actual quality of the auditing doesn't matter to most CEOs, so I beg anyone for some objective evidence. I'd like to see some sort of grading criteria from the ISO body itself, not a bunch of self-promotion.

We can definitely discuss, but most people stick with the first registrar they pick (correct me if I'm wrong), because most people just want that Cert. If they get it and the price is right, the actual quality of the auditing doesn't matter to most CEOs, so I beg anyone for some objective evidence. I'd like to see some sort of grading criteria from the ISO body itself, not a bunch of self-promotion.

ISO don't get involved in the certification process. It's not their remit. However, customers do and that's the real data most would like to see.

It's really the value, not the price. Many CB's charge around the same $$ so it has to be on service etc. It's a relationship, after all.

ISO don't get involved in the certification process. It's not their remit. However, customers do and that's the real data most would like to see.

It's really the value, not the price. Many CB's charge around the same $$ so it has to be on service etc. It's a relationship, after all.


I know ISO doesn't get involved... that's my big issue with it.

And the price does make a difference for a small company. I have been quoted for first year between $3,000 and $8,000. That may be pennies in the larger firms, but when we're struggling to stay alive in this economy, it makes a difference.

This is an excellent practice!
:biglaugh:
From now on, as a consultant, I shall encourage all my clients, to ask for the document when choosing the Registrar!
As this will be so bizarre to the “commercial guy” that appears in the first meeting, I don’t think we will have positive answers at that time…

I know ISO doesn't get involved... that's my big issue with it.

And the price does make a difference for a small company. I have been quoted for first year between $3,000 and $8,000. That may be pennies in the larger firms, but when we're struggling to stay alive in this economy, it makes a difference.

The apparent (wide) disparity is often due to the inclusion of fees for travel, etc. Have you set out the costs, side by side to see how they all stack up? For example, day rates should be similar (roughly) although those that are substantially lower often pay their auditors the lowest, so you mght predict what you're going to get......

Fees are often the other point of discussion.....do you know what's covered?

This is an excellent practice!
:biglaugh:
From now on, as a consultant, I shall encourage all my clients, to ask for the document when choosing the Registrar!
As this will be so bizarre to the “commercial guy” that appears in the first meeting, I don’t think we will have positive answers at that time…

I'm the 'commercial guy' for my CB - wouldn't phase me, Antonio......

The apparent (wide) disparity is often due to the inclusion of fees for travel, etc. Have you set out the costs, side by side to see how they all stack up? For example, day rates should be similar (roughly) although those that are substantially lower often pay their auditors the lowest, so you mght predict what you're going to get......

Fees are often the other point of discussion.....do you know what's covered?

Yes, I have read through all fine print and that is including travel. In all cases I requested local auditors, and strangely the one who would have to travel was still the cheapest. Go figure?

In the end, everything counts -- bottom line of cost includes travel, fees, etc.

It's like going in to buy a car, saying I have exactly $10,000 to spend. Dealer says, "perfect! i have a car for $9,500" and breaks it down with tax, interest and registration to be $12,000. He never seems to understand the problem.

The QM is one piece of a big puzzle, but not one that should be overlooked for any supplier.

How about it's not actually a part of the puzzle, but instead it's the cardboard backing the puzzle has been glued to. And I don't want to look at the cardboard unless there are pieces laying in a heep on the floor.

Neil - your 100th post! A good one too! Excellent points!


:thanks: sir! Too kind.

How about it's not actually a part of the puzzle, but instead it's the cardboard backing the puzzle has been glued to. And I don't want to look at the cardboard unless there are pieces laying in a heep on the floor.

Again though (maybe it's my lack of experience), that mentality seems to be the opposite of what ISO should be. The philosophy is not "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Aren't you supposed to audit and verify anyway so that when someone asks "how do you know it's good", your answer is, "because I checked it"?

Yes, I have read through all fine print and that is including travel. In all cases I requested local auditors, and strangely the one who would have to travel was still the cheapest. Go figure?

In the end, everything counts -- bottom line of cost includes travel, fees, etc.

It's like going in to buy a car, saying I have exactly $10,000 to spend. Dealer says, "perfect! i have a car for $9,500" and breaks it down with tax, interest and registration to be $12,000. He never seems to understand the problem.

Well, having sold car myself, for a while, I'm not sure I'd agree with your analogy.....but, there's more to it than simply the price - with a service! Some CB's just show up and audit.....others provide 'service' including many facets of a turn-key provider.....

Well, having sold car myself, for a while, I'm not sure I'd agree with your analogy.....but, there's more to it than simply the price - with a service! Some CB's just show up and audit.....others provide 'service' including many facets of a turn-key provider.....


Of course, I was perhaps unclear.

I just meant that travel and all extra costs do have to factor in to their bottom line cost. I am willing to pay more for better service, but not too much more.

In addition, I want to know why they charge different prices? That is very simple. Certification Bodies range tremendously in business models. Some have a global footprint, significant corporate structure, thorough auditor qualification requirements, way beyond the minimum expectations of ISO 17021, etc. Others operate out of a mailbox and a home based office, sharing space with the washer and dryer. Some CB’s are willing to pay more to their auditors, so there is very little turnover and they keep the good auditors happy. Others see auditors as a disposable commodity and the “auditor-on-file” approach is their business approach.
The ONLY criteria I have to go by in choosing a registrar for the first time is industry recognition and price... those are not very good options as far as I'm concerned! What is the Best Way to Select a Registrar? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14412&highlight=registrar)

That is very simple. Certification Bodies range tremendously in business models. Some have a global footprint, significant corporate structure, thorough auditor qualification requirements, way beyond the minimum expectations of ISO 17021, etc. Others operate out of a mailbox and a home based office, sharing space with the washer and dryer. Some CB’s are willing to pay more to their auditors, so there is very little turnover and they keep the good auditors happy. Others see auditors as a disposable commodity and the “auditor-on-file” approach is their business approach.
What is the Best Way to Select a Registrar? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14412&highlight=registrar)


That's not bad, but is that the only source of reference? What else you got?

That's not bad, but is that the only source of reference? What else you got?

Lexie! You're driving a hard bargain! :lol:

Stijloor.

Lexie! You're driving a hard bargain! :lol:

Stijloor.


Haha, sorry... I just never think that there is an end-all magic link as the answer. The thing is I know that no one has the answer I am looking for. I want to see objective studies/evidence on a) the true long term effectiveness of ISO in terms of efficiency, quality and cost and b) how do these registrars really rank?

This has actually come quite a bit off-topic.

Update: One CB sent with no problem. The other told me that they are not audited by a traditional iso 9001 scheme, so they can only provide me with ANAB website for reference.

Haha, sorry... I just never think that there is an end-all magic link as the answer. The thing is I know that no one has the answer I am looking for. I want to see objective studies/evidence on a) the true long term effectiveness of ISO in terms of efficiency, quality and cost and b) how do these registrars really rank?

This has actually come quite a bit off-topic.

Update: One CB sent with no problem. The other told me that they are not audited by a traditional iso 9001 scheme, so they can only provide me with ANAB website for reference.

Well, the answer to a) is in your hands and the answer to b) is........ask some existing customers! Do you want me to provide references you can contact?

How do registrars rank? Try looking to see, who out of the many registrars there are out there, are used as industry benchmarks. You'll find half a dozen or so and some of them represented in some form or fashion in this conversation.

There is nothing that is definitive in stating why one registrar is better than another or that can say whether real value has been created by the process. There is perception of worth and perception of capability......Everything is relevant to time, place and situation.

Now from me personally, I can just say that I have trained auditors for other registrars, but they have not trained me so they must bringing to the table 2nd hand what I bring to the table 1st hand.....:lol: That is how it works, isn't it?

In my experience, it is most beneficial to go with a registrar that your clients/customers have heard of.

Basically, one of the big ones.

Would you trust ATT or Sprint for your cellular service or Jim-Bob's Cellular?

In my experience, it is most beneficial to go with a registrar that your clients/customers have heard of.

Basically, one of the big ones.

Would you trust ATT or Sprint for your cellular service or Jim-Bob's Cellular?

You may or may not be correct...All things are relevant

Aren't you supposed to audit and verify anyway so that when someone asks "how do you know it's good", your answer is, "because I checked it"?That assumes the people doing the audit and verification is competent to differentiate content from facade. If the people doing the checking is not competent to perform a meaningful assessment, then it becomes just another non-value added activity.
That's not bad, but is that the only source of reference? What else you got?Not sure how to read this. The article contained in the thread I linked was written by a Cove contributor, very knowledgeable of the Registrar community. Compared to your own declared criteria, is much more comprehensive and meaninful process to select a CB from the alphabet soup we inhabit.
Best of luck to you.

In my experience, it is most beneficial to go with a registrar that your clients/customers have heard of.

Basically, one of the big ones.

Would you trust ATT or Sprint for your cellular service or Jim-Bob's Cellular?

How about we say..."one of the GOOD ones..." There are a number of very good registrars, some larger, some medium sized. There are bad ones of every size as well. Size is not always the best criteria...:cool:

This thread has drawn good comments from several of the best ones represented here on the Cove. (Andy, Randy, Sidney and I all represent good registrars - sorry if I missed any). Private messages with several of us might be beneficial if you want to pursue some of the conversations.

Yes, I have read through all fine print and that is including travel. In all cases I requested local auditors, and strangely the one who would have to travel was still the cheapest. Go figure?

In the end, everything counts -- bottom line of cost includes travel, fees, etc.

It's like going in to buy a car, saying I have exactly $10,000 to spend. Dealer says, "perfect! i have a car for $9,500" and breaks it down with tax, interest and registration to be $12,000. He never seems to understand the problem.


Good registrars should show all the costs in a clear manner. And, in most cases, there are travel costs. I travel a lot and sometimes audit locally. But that should not be the primary criteria.

I would not select an attorney just because he happens to be local. I would select one who appears to provide the best benefit and value, and then factor travel costs in.

In fact, many on these pages have discussed in the past, it is as much the specific auditor as it is the registrar. You just have to get some referrals and do a little searching. The Cove is handy because you can read the opinions of a number of specific auditors. Pick one you like and you've selected the registrar by default...:D

PS: I assume most registrars would allow you to see their Quality Manual, but I am not sure it would tell you much.

I know ISO doesn't get involved... that's my big issue with it.

And the price does make a difference for a small company. I have been quoted for first year between $3,000 and $8,000. That may be pennies in the larger firms, but when we're struggling to stay alive in this economy, it makes a difference.


With that big a difference, somethiing is amiss. For a full Stage 1 and Stage 2, $3000 sounds very low, and they might not be following approrpiate requirements. $8000 might be more realistic, albiet on the high end. If you take the higher half - $5000-7500, then the range narrows and as Andy said, the quality of the performance becomes the primary criteria.

We can definitely discuss, but

1. most people stick with the first registrar they pick (correct me if I'm wrong),

2. because most people just want that Cert.

3. If they get it and the price is right, the actual quality of the auditing doesn't matter to most CEOs,

4. so I beg anyone for some objective evidence. I'd like to see some sort of grading criteria from the ISO body itself, not a bunch of self-promotion.

Wrong on all 3 points, in my opinion. The 4th one, I regret, there is not much objective evidence already tabulated. The Quality Digest (or Q Progress) tried some years ago, but it was not a completely effective survey.

The best is still to interview some certified companies, or search a forum like this one, and you will very quickly see who has solid substance and who is ineffective.

This is my point EXACTLY. I have brought the issue up before. I find it incredibly ironic that the whole point behind ISO principles is verification, questioning, proof, etc., yet somehow the "ISO Gods" put a stamp on someone (in this case, the CB) as the omniscient medium and I don't need to verify anything extra? I don't think so, ESPECIALLY since there is absolutely no official rating system for the registrars to begin with other than a 5 year old Quality Digest survey and none of these people are cheap! Given the above, why is it so weird that I asked for a Quality Manual?

I also asked them about how they train their auditors, what are the selection criteria, employee turnover, etc.

You can get that, and they should be willing to show you, but it won't tell you much that helps you evaluate quality and performance. And, I agree the survey looked good but did not do it either.

If you asked a law firm to show you their manual, and asked how they trained their attorneys, you would get similar answers. But the differenc eis in the performance, and that always takes more homework and evaluation.

Originally Posted by LexieB

I know ISO doesn't get involved... that's my big issue with it.

And the price does make a difference for a small company. I have been quoted for first year between $3,000 and $8,000. That may be pennies in the larger firms, but when we're struggling to stay alive in this economy, it makes a difference.

1st year for $3000? By an accredited CB? I'm sorry but that dog don't hunt. No how, no way. Basic math and general industry knowledge will tell you that's a load of horsebagels:horse:

If you're just looking for an inexpensive certificate I know where you can get one for $500 ;). It may have as much real value as a Sears catalogue in an outhouse, but what the heck, most folks wouldn't know the difference.

But hey, we're probably just guessing anyhow because collectively we only have a 100 or so years of experience and we're still learning.:lol:

I don't think you're at all correct and that you comment is in poor taste.

The CB I work for is audited on a regular basis by many organizations, both to ISO/IEC 17021 and ISO 9001. We don't 'fail' (whatever that means) any audit and have maintained our accreditation when others have lost theirs as a result of those audits.

Please don't cast aspersions!
Congradulations! are all CBs maintaining same standard?
I have seen the poor standard of certifications these days.Good organizations with high quality are in the same bracket with bad organizations because both are ISO9001 or TS16949 certified.
V.J.Brahmaiah

Congradulations! are all CBs maintaining same standard?
I have seen the poor standard of certifications these days.Good organizations with high quality are in the same bracket with bad organizations because both are ISO9001 or TS16949 certified.
V.J.Brahmaiah

Of course all CB's don't maintain the same standards! That's why it's of importance to select a service provider on more than price. I wonder how many of those poor standrds of certification were the performed by a CB who was the lowest bidder, certifying organizations who just wanted the paper on the wall.

There are CB's out there that aren't even accredited. I'd be interested to know exactly how many poor standard of certifications you've seen and what your criteria are - the facts......

Good organizations will always differentiate themselves by good performance, backed by an accredited registration of their system, by a CB that gives value......

You can't cast everyone in the same mold, because of a few 'bad apples'....

Of course all CB's don't maintain the same standards! That's why it's of importance to select a service provider on more than price. I wonder how many of those poor standrds of certification were the performed by a CB who was the lowest bidder, certifying organizations who just wanted the paper on the wall.

There are CB's out there that aren't even accredited. I'd be interested to know exactly how many poor standard of certifications you've seen and what your criteria are - the facts......

Good organizations will always differentiate themselves by good performance, backed by an accredited registration of their system, by a CB that gives value......

You can't cast everyone in the same mold, because of a few 'bad apples'....
I have seen some good CBs have diluted their standard to stay in the competition.If the correction to this situation is not found we will come to a state of 'QUALITY DIPRESSSION' like the present 'ECONOMIC DIPRESSION'
Who is to enforce a solution for this.Or is it impossible to regulate it globally?
V.J.Brahmaiah

You may or may not be correct...All things are relevant


Says Patrick Swayze! :lmao:

How about we say..."one of the GOOD ones..." There are a number of very good registrars, some larger, some medium sized. There are bad ones of every size as well. Size is not always the best criteria...:cool:



I am coming ONLY from the perspective of Clients liking your certification. I would go as far as to say that if you are planning on implementing a GOOD QUALITY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM that the company will actually use, a small registrar may be the best bet...but... Right or wrong, a lot of people get ISO certified to get more business. In that case, i would say go with a "household" name.

Even if the CB is not a household name, I can still get a household name such as ANAB or UKAS on a certificate...

Great responses from everyone... thanks for the discussion!! You are all extremely knowledgeable and I can learn a lot from you!

Hey good luck Lexie

Wrong on all 3 points, in my opinion.
Mine too.

The majority of organisations just take enough care or trouble in selecting a CB, so congrats for aiming to do it better.

'Better' is of course a subjective opinion. What's 'better' depends upon what you want from a certifier? Just want the certificate on the wall at the lowest possible price? Need the biggest or the most well known? Or is value important to you, and a good relationship with high levels of service?

CBs are most definitely not the same, ranging from 'oh my God, don't go near 'em unless $$ is your sole criteria and even then beware' to those who put considerable attention on selecting suitable audit personnel and training them/developing them. I'd always go for the latter, myself. But then, I am biassed towards professional and respected CBs who are (not coincidentally) also focussed on providing value and service.

Think about how you select other professional service providers, eg, doctors, dentists, lawyers and perhaps consultants. And do a lot of checking! The sheer range of opinions and experiences on the Cove, as well as anecdotes of 'auditors from hell' should be a clue to the need.

Just picking the first one you've heard of / the cheapest? Well, how well would you expect that to work? :confused:

I might ask to see their manual. Like Jim, I am biased towards organisations and individuals who value info communicated clearly.

"lowly sales folk"
"lowly sales folk"
"lowly sales folk"

:lmao:

I'm curious about your reason for asking for a manual.

Laughter is not the best medicine for stomach. I was laughing so hard and it hurts.


Client is asking for quality manual of a registrar. :lmao::lmao:

I am coming ONLY from the perspective of Clients liking your certification. I would go as far as to say that if you are planning on implementing a GOOD QUALITY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM that the company will actually use, a small registrar may be the best bet...but... Right or wrong, a lot of people get ISO certified to get more business. In that case, i would say go with a "household" name.


It is hard to say what people will think. I am represented by both a large global registrar and a medium sized one. Both have a good rep and are pretty well known. Experiemced buyers learn which registrars to avoid. The rest are probably seen as acceptable. I think the top 3 biggest factors are 1. company management committed to building and using a good system,
2. a good auditor who is expereinced and more than just "competent,"
3. a registrar who is committed providing a good legitimate service.

I would not focus solely on the CB. They play a role but the difference between two good registrars is made up in point # 1 and 2.

Client is asking for quality manual of a registrar. :lmao::lmao:
I don't know why you think this is laughable.

Try reframing it to: a client (or potential client) is asking to see the quality manual of one of its suppliers.

Here for some of the CBs, you can download their manual from their website; if not, they'll email a copy for the asking. Why on earth would this not be the case?

I don't know why you think this is laughable.

Try reframing it to: a client (or potential client) is asking to see the quality manual of one of its suppliers.

Here for some of the CBs, you can download their manual from their website; if not, they'll email a copy for the asking. Why on earth would this not be the case?

Yes, it’s not a laughing thing. It’s just unusual that a client to ask for CB’s manual. We all know that it’s CB’s auditor who request for client’s manual during desk study or even at the stage 2 audit. Of course, client can also request and needs to know more who the CB is.

LexieB;

All CB's have to follow 17021. This is the ISO version that that CB's operate in accordance to. This document is above requirements outlined in ISO.
And Oh yes I'm a loley sales person that happens to have participated in the "Critical Safety Items" revision to AS, spearheaded by Boeing and Bell and will be attending the AAQG conference in Charlotte, Sept 15-18th.

We have to resign to the fact that A uniform regulation of quality of CBs is very difficult.There are two ways by which the QMS of an organization can maintain quality..One by self decipline by the organization the other by a whipping OEM customer.The registrars are focussed more on their survival and profits.

V.J.Brahmaiah

We have to resign to the fact that A uniform regulation of quality of CBs is very difficult.There are two ways by which the QMS of an organization can maintain quality..One by self decipline by the organization the other by a whipping OEM customer.The registrars are focussed more on their survival and profits.

V.J.Brahmaiah

I don't think that is a fair statement, at least not in the US and Europe. I have seen many good registrars and auditors, and only some not so good.

However, I agree that in some newer developing countries, there are a number of registrars who are playing games.