Dear Friend

in another topic i ask about design

where we get sample from customer to make a one like it " reverse engineering "

so we agree it will not related to clause 7.3 design and development


the steps :

1- get the sample from the customer
2- make the drawing
3- send the drawing to the customer for approved it
4- make trail order and send to customer
5- when customer agree we produce the whole quantity


are we will document this process according procedure of design and will make the steps of design shown in the standard
design input
design output
design review
design validation or we didn't need validation and verification



or according to product realization , Final inspection



please help

i hope if some one answer me

i hope if some one answer me

It is Sunday. Most folks are off today.
You may get some responses, perhaps tomorrow.
Patience is a virtue! ;)

Stijloor, Forum Moderator.

Dear Friend

in another topic i ask about design

where we get sample from customer to make a one like it " reverse engineering "

so we agree it will not related to clause 7.3 design and development

the steps :

1- get the sample from the customer
2- make the drawing
3- send the drawing to the customer for approved it
4- make trail order and send to customer
5- when customer agree we produce the whole quantity

are we will document this process according procedure of design and will make the steps of design shown in the standard
design input
design output
design review
design validation or we didn't need validation and verification

or according to product realization , Final inspection
Your process is a simple form of a design process and should be documented as such. See your original process below with my comments added.

1- get the sample from the customer (Design Input)
2- make the drawing (Design Output)
3- send the drawing to the customer for approved it (Design Review)
4- make trial order (Design Verification if you inspect it) and send to customer (Design Validation)
5- when customer agree we produce the whole quantity

If you review your process in greater detail, you probably are doing much more than you wrote above. For example, you probably inspect (verify) the trial order before shipping it to the customer. You also probably make design decisions regarding how to manufacture the product, which then impacts product characteristics such as surface finish, drafts, parting line locations, etc., etc., etc.

I don't agree that copying someone else's design means you can claim design responsibility.......!

If it does, I'm going to copy ISO 9001, type it backwards, put my name on it and sell them here......then you can read it holding it up to a mirror....:lmao:

I don't agree that copying someone else's design means you can claim design responsibility.......!

Not speaking for Miner, but he didn't say anything about design responsibility per se. He says (and I agree) that reverse engineering follows the general design process, especially as the OP explained the issue. Just because the OP's company didn't originate the design doesn't mean that the work shouldn't be properly documented and validated.

Not speaking for Miner, but he didn't say anything about design responsibility per se. He says (and I agree) that reverse engineering follows the general design process, especially as the OP explained the issue. Just because the OP's company didn't originate the design doesn't mean that the work shouldn't be properly documented and validated.

The OP specifically asked about the design process. If the scope of the quality system includes the word design, I don't believe they can be registered, since they are 'copying' someone else's product. IMHO, they should exclude the design requirements and consider the activities under other processes......(and, if necessary, other requirements of the ISO 9001 standard)

How do you reverse engineer cheese & shrimp?

How do you reverse engineer cheese & shrimp?

I think the OP was considering doing third-party audits; see here (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=325723)for example.

The OP specifically asked about the design process. If the scope of the quality system includes the word design, I don't believe they can be registered, since they are 'copying' someone else's product. IMHO, they should exclude the design requirements and consider the activities under other processes......(and, if necessary, other requirements of the ISO 9001 standard)

In most cases, the design process for a reverse-engineered product is identical to the original process; the only difference might be that the concept (for the product) is concrete rather than abstract. Drawings, dimensions, material specifications, tolerances, etc. all have to be developed, and all of those things must go through the same design verification/validation process.

What if there is no recourse to the original design source and documentation? Who would be considered design-responsible for the product?

I'm not sure if this is the direction the OP was going, but I think performing reverse engineering does not necessarily keep you from claiming design as an exemption.

Is not the sample or model actually the design? If so, what you are doing is planning for production, not design. One of the notes in 7.1, Planning of product realization, says: "NOTE 2 The organization may also apply the requirements in 7.3 to the development of product realization processes." My take on that is that you can use the elements in 7.3 to help you plan for production without actually performing design.

Does anyone have a different perspective?

Bottom line: From where do the drawings required to build the product come?

Answer: The OP's company.

Whether they originated the original "design" or not, they did originate engineering drawings. They also are forced to make engineering assumptions/decisions regarding the product, the materials used and the manufacturing process required to replicate the design.

Reverse Engineering implies more than mere copying and manufacturing.

The OP's customer is providing the sample......

The OP's customer is providing the sample......

But if there's design information available, why does the OP's company need to reverse-engineer it? Why didn't they provide a drawing? For all we know, the customer found one in a cow pasture and asked the OP's company to duplicate it.

Just an :topic:comment.

Reverse engineering is a term that many people use when, in reality, they are doing intellectual property piracy, by attempting to replicate some one's else design.

Just like I would not assist anyone trying to calibrate centrifuges, I will refrain from assisting questionable deals.

Not implying anything about the OP.

There are many legitimate uses of Reverse Engineering.



A company that originated the design goes out of business leaving a void that must be filled.



A customer paid for the design, including rights to the IP, but does not have the design documents. The customer chooses to change suppliers for various reasons.

I will presume the OP is doing this for legitimate reasons.

Indeed, didn't Bill Gate and Microsoft get started by reverse engineering a software product?:notme:;)

Actually Bill Gates 'borrowed' CP/M and 'lightly' modified it. He's lucky he got away with it. His smart move was to license 'his' software to IBM rather than sell it.

See: Triumph_of_the_Nerds

Reverse engineering is very common.

Instances of reverse enngineering is seen often in the IT field, and it is mainly done for preparation and design of the artifacts of the existing legacy systems.

This is widely practiced when a client wants a change of technology and wants to keep the business logic intact.

It requires a lot of effort and time to do this re-engineering and reverse engineening is an integrated part of this re-engineering.The standard product lifecycle is followed in reverse engineering and it is much similar to the D&D steps.

I understand the same logic shall be applicable to non IT reverse engineering process as well.

Regards,

Arin