What is your opinion on someone who begins by posting a new thread (or post) asking for help... and then part-way through tries to 'take it offline' by sending someone a PM asking for private advice and to continue the discussion but for them only?

My reply is no; I don't see it as fair to other forum users. If I write in the forum I write publicly and choose how, where, when and if I'll post, whereas if I consult, I do that elsewhere and I expect to be paid for it. I've only made a single exception to a PM request for help, where there were particular circumstances. But in general, it seems quite unfair to start off a topic, and then take it offline for the benefit of a single individual only, or to essentially ask someone to do work for you for free, particularly from people new to the forum, students, etc etc.

But the latest incident prompted this thread: in another forum, someone started a new thread with a topic, and after they'd received several responses (mine among them), then sent me a PM asking for more advice. In which they even copied in parts of private email correspondence from the 3rd party they'd had problems with (not on the Cove), which I found distinctly questionable.

What do others think of the practice of some Cove users using PMs to ask for private advice? What do you/would you do in such circumstances?

PS: not sure if this is the right place for this thread - let me know/move it if not.

What do others think of the practice of some Cove users using PMs to ask for private advice? What do you/would you do in such circumstances?

I get those occasionally, as do most of the regulars here, I presume. I tend to deal with them on a case-by-case basis, but I usually politely tell them that they should post their questions in the forums where others can benefit from the answers.

Good question, Jane. In short, my answer is no.

All the help here is for free. This site works by building a repository of knowledge in each thread. Sure, in one thread, one person may get immediate help. But so many more people come through and read that same thread, getting help also. All that knowledge is lost when done through PM alone.

On several sites, they will put notes in their signature, stating they will not help through PM. Not saying I condone or like it, but they do it.:D

I think PM is great on many different things. But when people have to devote time answering questions through PM, the rest of the site and other Covers lose out a bit. Too, someone may ask me a question, and it be an OK answer. However, they can ask in the open forum, and receive a much better answer by somebody they weren't expecting.

Now... there have been times that some of my associates/ other moderators may want to ask something specific from me that is not appropriate for public domain. That's different. But for the majority of questions/help, I think they should be posted outright.

Hi Jane

Thank you for bringing this topic to discussion. You are making a good point.

I wil speak for my self on this. On few occasions I have given my e-mail address to the post originator for further follow-up of an issue outside the chain of posts in the Cove. When I do that is not because I am trying to be unfair with other participants, but I do it particularly because I feel that some subtle details of discussions can be better clarified or resolved if handled one-to-one.

Whether or not this is appropriate I am not totally sure, however it would a good topic for discussion with the forum moderators.

I agree that keeping a private conversation outside the chain of posts may end up on situations that can affect or bother either one of the folks involved, so at least some guidelines or recommendations to perform that practice may be good.

Please provide additional suggestions to establish a "courtesy frame" on conversations that arise from chains of posts. I agree that some guidelines may help

Alberto

Good question, Jane. In short, my answer is no.

All the help here is for free. This site works by building a repository of knowledge in each thread. Sure, in one thread, one person may get immediate help. But so many more people come through and read that same thread, getting help also. All that knowledge is lost when done through PM alone.

On several sites, they will put notes in their signature, stating they will not help through PM. Not saying I condone or like it, but they do it.:D

I think PM is great on many different things. But when people have to devote time answering questions through PM, the rest of the site and other Covers lose out a bit. Too, someone may ask me a question, and it be an OK answer. However, they can ask in the open forum, and receive a much better answer by somebody they weren't expecting.

Now... there have been times that some of my associates/ other moderators may want to ask something specific from me that is not appropriate for public domain. That's different. But for the majority of questions/help, I think they should be posted outright. I agree with this summary, but I also agree that it is a case by case issue for each of us. I get PMs now and again and almost every time I tell the person to ask in the forum because while a one-on-one can help everyone else looses out. There are times when they don't want certain information in public and I may try to help a bit, but that's relatively rare.

On the other hand, I am hesitant to make a 'rule' on something like this as its not enforceable - Not even moderators can see anyones PMs so there is no control mechanism.

I do think a courtesy reply, even in the negative, is a good idea, but again I know some folks policy here is to simply not reply.

As a last comment, remember each of you has the option to turn off PMs from others in your UserCP (I think it's under your Options).

I got what seemed to be a broadcast PM a day or two ago, judging from the non-specific wording and contextual presentation. It was asking what amounted to an initial question, not pursuing a fine point of a discussion by the forum community that had already explored the general characteristics of a problem.

It also posed a very general question, asking for an essay-length answer.

And there was no sign that the asker had come here first to review past posts.

Most days I have limited time for participation here, and I focus that time on community posts. I tend not to respond to such PMs.

My perspective is that anyone needing private, personal advice should be hiring a consultant. Those who would respond that the reason they come here is because it's free, and who don't display at least a modicum of community-knowledge orientation, pretty much immediately lose their access to my time and advice. Those who demand my time and seem to regard me as obligated to help them personally, get nowhere.

As a last comment, remember each of you has the option to turn off PMs from others in your UserCP (I think it's under your Options). UserCP = User Control Panel

Also remember that this is an International Forum - there are cultural, language and many other differences. In case of doubt or where there is persistent testing of your patience (very rarely happening here), you can approach Marc or any of the Moderators for help.

Sometimes, in cases of information very specific to one's operation, I really don't see that there is a problem with PMs. I think that is going to always need to be a decision made when you get the PM. Should this be shared with all, then ask the person to continue the conversation in the thread. I, myself, have been guilty of asking people through PMs for their thoughts on information specific to what I am looking for. Sometimes it helps you to figure out the path to provide better information through the public forum.

I get those occasionally, as do most of the regulars here, I presume. I tend to deal with them on a case-by-case basis, but I usually politely tell the them that they should post their questions in the forums where others can benefit from the answers.

I agree 100% with this.

I’m sorry if it sounds like that. The first thing came in my mind when I was reading the post is that if someone is happy helping people, don’t complaint. People who complain will get more of what they’re complaining about. Besides, she has a choice to reply or not to reply. and complaining is useless. it doesn't help. no one wins
Let me act as a "Gray Eminence" here.
The point you are missing, Triad,
is that the complaint comes to the eyes and ears of the moderators. In the past, we moderators have looked VERY dimly upon folks who continue in an unwanted activity in either the public forums or private communications with other Cove members. In several such cases, we have banned the offending person. In extreme cases, we have determined an individual is using multiple screen names for reasons which have no valid purpose in a public forum and we have searched out and banned EVERY such screen name.

To all Cove users:
If you feel harassed or badgered in any way by another Cove member in either a public thread or private communication, do not hesitate to make a complaint to the moderators. The poorest course of action is to try to deal with such offense on your own - the moderators may only need a little bit more information on a bad actor to trigger banning. If a bad actor is offending one person, odds are great that bad actor is also offending others. Depending on the nature of the offense, we may merely warn an offender, but multiple offenses and egregious offenses will be dealt with PERMANENTLY.

I, myself, have been guilty of asking people through PMs for their thoughts on information specific to what I am looking for. Sometimes it helps you to figure out the path to provide better information through the public forum.
Oh, absolutely, SteelMaiden, me too and I don't think there's anything to be 'guilty' of in the use of PMs.

Thanks for the various comments, people. It's been interesting.

Just to clarify, I'm definitely not talking about the use of the PM function in general, nor am I seeking any kind of policy or ruling - just interested in whether other regulars get these kinds of requests, and if so, how/if they respond. And yes, I use it at times when a conversation is most appropriate between me and one other person, rather than being public.

I quite agree PMs are a case by case basis. And yes, I know I could disable my PM option entirely if I chose; so far I choose not to because there are times when it is appropriate and useful.

The times when I don't think it is appropriate is when I get a request from someone I don't even know, who is most often new to the forum, when they and I have had little (if any) previous interaction, and yet they appear to feel it's quite reasonable (why escapes me) to send a PM asking for a private, individual answer or coaching. In these circumstances, I think the behaviour is completely self-centred, inappropriate and rather selfish.

My rule of thumb remains to say no: & to suggest they pose their question in the public forum, where anyone can read it, and perhaps benefit from the responses posted.

Most days I have limited time for participation here, and I focus that time on community posts. I tend not to respond to such PMs.

My perspective is that anyone needing private, personal advice should be hiring a consultant. Those who would respond that the reason they come here is because it's free, and who don't display at least a modicum of community-knowledge orientation, pretty much immediately lose their access to my time and advice. Those who demand my time and seem to regard me as obligated to help them personally, get nowhere.

:applause:

Thanks - you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. :yes:

If you want to give a message for someone or everybody that anybody can see, post it in public. Public posts should contain something of interest or importance to the general audience. If, however, you have something more private that you want to communicate to someone, sending a PM is better way to go. I believe that there are messages that should preferably be kept as private as possible like mentioning names, addresses, contact numbers, etc. I encountered public messages that were supposed to be private ones.

For your consideration

just remember that hiring a consultant is not always possible. A lot of the folks here don't have the authority to hire consultants, and are doing the best they can. Sometimes I cannot answer the questions people pose in a PM, or sometimes I think it is just better that it becomes public knowledge. I don't think we will ever get away from the problem so we just each have to do what we feel is best.

just remember that hiring a consultant is not always possible. A lot of the folks here don't have the authority to hire consultants, and are doing the best they can. Sometimes I cannot answer the questions people pose in a PM, or sometimes I think it is just better that it becomes public knowledge. I don't think we will ever get away from the problem so we just each have to do what we feel is best.

I agree - and some people in that position may feel comfortable enough to discuss a problem in PM where they can provide more details on their process that they may not wish to publish to the world. I find that appropriate.

For those that are full-time consultants, I understand what they need to do to sell their wares, and it may make less sense to hand out too many free samples. They have to do what they have to do.

I agree - and some people in that position may feel comfortable enough to discuss a problem in PM where they can provide more details on their process that they may not wish to publish to the world. I find that appropriate.

For those that are full-time consultants, I understand what they need to do to sell their wares, and it may make less sense to hand out too many free samples. They have to do what they have to do.

I think that all questions should be answered even if the answer might be to politely decline giving personal help. Everyone is free to deal with these things as they see fit, but I think that telling someone that they should post the question(s) in the forums is better than no answer at all. There are few questions I've been asked that I consider inappropriate. Occasionally I've been asked for copies of copyrighted material after someone has been told in the forum that we don't share those things here. That's pretty rude, but I still answer them, albeit tersely.

I think that all questions should be answered even if the answer might be to politely decline giving personal help. Everyone is free to deal with these things as they see fit, but I think that telling someone that they should post the question(s) in the forums is better than no answer at all. There are few questions I've been asked that I consider inappropriate. Occasionally I've been asked for copies of copyrighted material after someone has been told in the forum that we don't share those things here. That's pretty rude, but I still answer them, albeit tersely.

In your typical 17,945 Karma manner :tg::D, you have succinctly and accurately given an excellent summary of how each should handle this subject. If someone asks in a PM for help, give it if you wish, decline, or suggest to post publicly, but I would give an answer. :agree1:

A couple of times I've received PMs from people where there was a valid reason for the topic to be private. In those cases I've answered in private as I felt appropriate.

In other cases I've received PMs where they seemed to want a private tutoring session outside an exisiting thread with the same topic. Sometimes I've posted or paraphrased their question in the thread and then answered in public. For my own consulting clients, I'm always happy to do one-on-one emails and messages. If I have no relationship, I don't feel obligated to answer in private.

I think I found a useful option in the profile to block PMs except from friends/contacts. That will avoid the 'as you're a consultant, I'm sure you'd be interested in this wonderful ProductName/Software Name/Whatever it is we sell) PMs.

I don't remember seeing it before... might be just another CI from Marc. Thanks Marc.

Similar to other responses, I receive many PMs on general topics, Hi and hellos, asking for technical help, local Indians wanting specific technical info relating to Indian regulations etc.

Those who ask me technical questions or general questions, I usually refer them to mention is the respective forum. Some personal ones I do answer them seperately on a case by case basis :)

I think I found a useful option in the profile to block PMs except from friends/contacts. That will avoid the 'as you're a consultant, I'm sure you'd be interested in this wonderful ProductName/Software Name/Whatever it is we sell) PMs.

I don't remember seeing it before... might be just another CI from Marc. Thanks Marc.

Why don’t you just ignore the PM?

Why don’t you just ignore the PM?

Because it smacks of discourtesy, to me

I would like to take the opportunity to point out Moderators and Administrators in the Cove are special cases in that they actively solicit private messages about a number of topics most regular members have no interest in.

We see our role first as helping folks make the most of the PUBLIC forms to get a cross section of answers from folks in the Cove. Many old hands in both Quality and the use of Internet Discussion Forums easily forget how confusing it all can be for a newbie. So we help sincere newbies as best we can and don't turn them away because the questions are repetitive or even "whiney."

Precisely because we field so many emails and messages, we've developed pretty good radar at detecting frauds, fools, and internet trolls. Rarely do we answer questions in private which should be in the public forums. Such questions we redirect back to the public forums so the answers can be available for all future readers.

We turn down private requests for free copies of copyrighted documents for the same reason we turn them down in public forums - it's not legal.

Messages directed to us in our role as moderators and/or administrators are often shared with other moderators and administrators so we can present a consistent response on behalf of the Cove.

Personal messages addressed to us as individuals are kept private. Sometimes, though, our view of what is a moderator message versus personal may be more liberally interpreted than the message sender expected.

One last tip - it doesn't seem to me to be a smart move to try to harass any moderator via emails and private messages using the Cove software because an aggrieved moderator can always make a case for suspending a person's Cove access or even banning such a person outright from future participation in the Cove.

I would like to take the opportunity to point out Moderators and Administrators in the Cove are special cases in that they actively solicit private messages about a number of topics most regular members have no interest in.

We see our role first as helping folks make the most of the PUBLIC forms to get a cross section of answers from folks in the Cove. Many old hands in both Quality and the use of Internet Discussion Forums easily forget how confusing it all can be for a newbie. So we help sincere newbies as best we can and don't turn them away because the questions are repetitive or even "whiney."

Precisely because we field so many emails and messages, we've developed pretty good radar at detecting frauds, fools, and internet trolls. Rarely do we answer questions in private which should be in the public forums. Such questions we redirect back to the public forums so the answers can be available for all future readers.
I don't think you should present yourself as representing all (or even a consensus) of the views of moderators on this topic unless you're sure that you are indeed speaking for all of them. I can say personally from my own experience as a moderator that I don't receive fewer PMs now than I did when I was a moderator, nor is the subject matter of the messages I receive any different, nor do I respond any differently.

Messages directed to us in our role as moderators and/or administrators are often shared with other moderators and administrators so we can present a consistent response on behalf of the Cove.

Personal messages addressed to us as individuals are kept private. Sometimes, though, our view of what is a moderator message versus personal may be more liberally interpreted than the message sender expected.
This is just wrong, imo. Unless there is a really compelling reason to divulge the contents of PMs, no one should be sharing them unless the sharing is disclosed and agreed to.

That will avoid the 'as you're a consultant, I'm sure you'd be interested in this wonderful ProductName/Software Name/Whatever it is we sell) PMs.



JaneB and all Covers - please know that solicitations like this are against the Terms of Service here at the Cove. If anyone receives what they believe to be an inappropriate use of the PM system, please use the "Report" button that should show up on the PM.

Marc and all the modertors work very hard to keep this site as a "free exchange of ideas". We spend a lot of time discussing post as described in JaneB post above. We are not against learning about new product, along as we have interaction with the user. Most folks that have been around know we do not tolerate posts that say "Try my thing - it will solve your problems" - we also do not tolerate it in the PM or e-mail system.

This is just wrong, imo. Unless there is a really compelling reason to divulge the contents of PMs, no one should be sharing them unless the sharing is disclosed and agreed to. It is very rare that a PM (Personal Message in the forum software) comes up for discussion in the moderator forum. The ones that do are always ones where privacy isn't an issue.

I can say without hesitation that anyone can PM a moderator in confidence. None of the moderators, nor I, share PM information unless it is obvious that the issue raised is important, and typically in such cases the PM content and sender are typically not revealed because the subject matter is usually forum related, not personal in nature. When we DO discuss a PM it is one moderator asking the others (and me) what to do in response to a PM they themselves received. Keep in mind that this post is in regard to moderators discussing PMs sent to them.

In the same vein, since the topic has been broached, neither the moderators nor I can see or read PMs between Registered Visitors. The software was written with that in mind.

It's the same with passwords. People 'lose' (forget, whatever) passwords every day, they use the Contact Marc (http://elsmar.com/Forums/sendmessage.php) and I help them out. I have no way to know anyone's password. Check these out and then if you need me to help just reply to this email.

NOTE: Your email address *MUST* be correct. If it isn't, you'll have to ask me (email me) to manually adjust your database record.

Forgotten Password and/or Changing your Password 'How To' thread:
http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=22711

NOTE: User names AND passwords are *Case Sensitive* and spaces in a Forum User Name, if any, count as 'characters'.
E.g.: Larry ≠ larry, and sAm ≠ Sam, and G Masters ≠ GMasters.

Lost Password Link:
http://Elsmar.com/Forums/login.php?do=lostpw

If you are Logged In, change your password and/or email address here:
http://Elsmar.com/Forums/profile.php?do=editpassword
NOTE: The link says 'editpassword', but both email and password changes are on the same page.

Instructions --> How To Use the Forum Software
http://Elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86

If you are having a specific problem, you will have to give me more details of exactly what you are trying to do and what happens when you try. For example: What is the error message you get?

Let me know if you have further problems that you need personal help with. My phone number is below if you need me to walk you through something.

Thanks! Technically I *can* set a password for a Registered Visitor (Moderators can not, only I can), but I try to keep out of people's passwords. But, there are cases where I see it as a technological issue where the person isn't fully acquainted with the software and make the decision to set a new password for them, email it to them (along with my 'notes' in the quote above) so they can at least log in and change it to whatever they want.

Ultimately, for anyone who is seriously concerned with privacy in the PM system here, they should exchange personal email addresses in a PM to the person they want to contact and carry out their business directly between themselves on their private email accounts, not through the forum PM system.

<SNIP> I can say personally from my own experience as a moderator that I don't receive fewer PMs now than I did when I was a moderator, nor is the subject matter of the messages I receive any different, nor do I respond any differently. <SNIP>You are a special case - you have the highest karma in the Cove and you are frequently in the top five of all posters in number of posts each 30 day cycle. Such visibility makes you a target as much or more [since you don't have the "stigma" of officialdom] as any moderator.

Thanks for your input all, I appreciate the various sharing of opinions, even though in places the discussion has wandered along some byways & ways from the original topic, as is the way of the Cove at times.

I started the post as a result of receiving several requests for private help in a row, all from people completely new to the Cove, and none of whom I'd even 'met' before. I wasn't asking about PMs in general - I think there's a definite use for them and don't want to disable mine.

But I still think immediate/almost immediate requests for private coaching from a new and unknown registrant is against the spirit of a forum in general, and not something I agree to. I tend to consider it selfish and inconsiderate.

I wasn't ever querying the use of PMs in general, but I have learned a few things along the way, as one does. And yes, if I get another 'my widget is wonderful' post, I'll report it. I don't get too many of those though.

I do think you all - you moderators, administrators and of course not least Marc - do a quite wonderful job in keeping the Cove free of would-be opportunists and free of commercial exploitation, as well as a professional, friendly and polite place, and take this opportunity to thank you all for what you do.

You are a special case
How nice of you to acknowledge Jim's specialness.