Hi,
I need your help.

Just recently, we launched a new product for two separate customers. Customer 1 is a tier 1 supplier and customer 2 is a distributor.

The former required a PPAP submission during the APQP stage but the latter, the distributor did not. Well, actually we didn't ask the distributor if they require a PPAP submission, too.

We started delivering the product to Customer 1 after obtaining the PPAP approval but Customer 2 alsot started ordering the products on a tight schedule.

1. My question is, is it part of our responsibility as suppliers to initiate the PPAP submission to Customer 2? or should we wait for their request, i.e., after their customer requests for PPAP?

2. In terms of records of approval, can we actually use their Purchase Orders or Delivery requests as proof of approval from their side?

Thanks a lot!

1. If the distributor doesn't ask for a PPAP submission, don't confuse the issue by sending them one. Wait until they *request* one.

2. Yes. You can use their Purchase Orders or Delivery requests as proof of approval.

Thank you for the clarification.

Got a follow-up question.
How about in cases where PPAP was required by a Customer but after submission and before receipt of approval a Customer Order has been placed. You think it would be necessary and proper for us to pur up some kind of a waiver?
Or what do you suggest should cases like this happen?

Thanks again

Thank you for the clarification.

Got a follow-up question.
How about in cases where PPAP was required by a Customer but after submission and before receipt of approval a Customer Order has been placed. You think it would be necessary and proper for us to pur up some kind of a waiver?
Or do you suggest should cases like this happen?

Thanks again

It depends on customer requirements. If the contract (including any referenced documents) says that you may not ship production quantities before PPAP approval, you should get a waiver.

It depends on customer requirements. If the contract (including any referenced documents) says that you may not ship production quantities before PPAP approval, you should get a waiver.

Are the waivers normally initiated by the customer or could it be either the customer or supplier?

Are the waivers normally initiated by the customer or could it be either the customer or supplier?
If a customer places an order without first waiving (in writing) the requirement for pre-shipment PPAP approval, it's up to you to get the waiver, and you shouldn't feel shy about telling the customer you won't ship without it.

If a customer places an order without first waiving (in writing) the requirement for pre-shipment PPAP approval, it's up to you to get the waiver, and you shouldn't feel shy about telling the customer you won't ship without it.

Thanks a lot Jim.
The info you guys shared would be very useful for our upcoming Re-certification audit.

Thanks!

More power to the cove!

If the customer has traditionally asked for a PPAP I would be pro-active and send it.
Did customer two ever give you a Statement of Requirements (SOR) that requires PPAP or some other approval before manufacture and shipping could be approved?
If so, the Part Submission Warrant part of the PPAP once signed is your documentation to say the parts are approved by the customer and ready produce.
If not then I would stick with Marc's advice.

Mark

How about in cases where PPAP was required by a Customer but after submission and before receipt of approval a Customer Order has been placed. You think it would be necessary and proper for us to pur up some kind of a waiver? YES!!!!! And NOT verbally. Get it in writing (email or what ever).

If the customer has traditionally asked for a PPAP I would be pro-active and send it.
Did customer two ever give you a Statement of Requirements (SOR) that requires PPAP or some other approval before manufacture and shipping could be approved?
If so, the Part Submission Warrant part of the PPAP once signed is your documentation to say the parts are approved by the customer and ready produce.
If not then I would stick with Marc's advice. I look at it a bit differently. To me, *if* PPAP is required it must be stated on the Purchase Order or an associated document (such as the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual). If a customer has 'traditionally' asked for PPAP you would look in the same place where they required it before. If the requirement is not there (somewhere) then don't take the initiative and send one. It's like the old saying in auditing - Do Not Volunteer Information.

To send a customer something the specific contract (or the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual) does not state/require is putting yourself into a potential problem area. I can see no reason to provide something that is not specifically required. :2cents:

I look at it a bit differently. To me, *if* PPAP is required it must be stated on the Purchase Order or an associated document (such as the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual). If a customer has 'traditionally' asked for PPAP you would look in the same place where they required it before. If the requirement is not there (somewhere) then don't take the initiative and send one. It's like the old saying in auditing - Do Not Volunteer Information.

To send a customer something the specific contract (or the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual) does not state/require is putting yourself into a potential problem area. I can see no reason to provide something that is not specifically required. :2cents:

There was no specific information or requirement for PPAP stated in the contract. I still like the idea of not volunteering information :).

Unlike our usual customers (Customer 1), customer 2 doesn't even have a Supplier Quality Manual.
I guess, I would just wait until their customer would require PPAP from them.

<snip> I guess, I would just wait until their customer would require PPAP from them.NO!!! You wait until YOUR customer requires it from YOU! If their customer requires it of them it doesn't mean they are required to flow down the requirement to you! If your customer's customer requires a flow down, it should be stated on YOUR customer's Purchase Order to your company or an associated document (such as the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual).

I will repeat my opinion - NEVER Volunteer Information. :2cents:

Let's say your customer doesn't require a C of C or C of A from you. Are you going to send one anyway (assuming that is not your company's 'standard practice')? If they don't require copies of your control plans, are you going to send them copies anyway? The list of what they do not ask for/require that you *could* send them is endless.

Hi,
I need your help.

Just recently, we launched a new product for two separate customers. Customer 1 is a tier 1 supplier and customer 2 is a distributor.

The former required a PPAP submission during the APQP stage but the latter, the distributor did not. Well, actually we didn't ask the distributor if they require a PPAP submission, too.

We started delivering the product to Customer 1 after obtaining the PPAP approval but Customer 2 alsot started ordering the products on a tight schedule.

1. My question is, is it part of our responsibility as suppliers to initiate the PPAP submission to Customer 2? or should we wait for their request, i.e., after their customer requests for PPAP?

2. In terms of records of approval, can we actually use their Purchase Orders or Delivery requests as proof of approval from their side?

Thanks a lot!
You need not initiate PPAP submission until your customer asks for it.But if you are a TS16949 company you are required to prepare all the documents and reports required in PPAP as evidence of conformance of the product.They are for your internal audit requirement.
V.J.Brahmaiah

I look at it a bit differently. To me, *if* PPAP is required it must be stated on the Purchase Order or an associated document (such as the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual). If a customer has 'traditionally' asked for PPAP you would look in the same place where they required it before. If the requirement is not there (somewhere) then don't take the initiative and send one. It's like the old saying in auditing - Do Not Volunteer Information.

To send a customer something the specific contract (or the print, a Statement of Requirements (SOR), or a Supplier Quality Requirements Manual) does not state/require is putting yourself into a potential problem area. I can see no reason to provide something that is not specifically required. :2cents:

Thanks Marc. For the most parrt we agree.

Yup - We do. I posted because I have seen situations where a company sent a customer some 'extra' data and it opened up the proverbial "can of worms". All sorts of questions started flying the first of which was "Why did you send this? Is there a problem we don't know about?"

On the question of submission of PPAP to customer everybody seems to have ignored the fact that ,irrespective of customer requirement all the documents and records that make a PPAP are requirements of TS16949 standard.In any case You have to prepare those records as evidence of conformity of the product.If customer has not asked for PPAP you neednot send it to him.
V.J.Brahmaiah