I hope this is the right forum..
My problem thus far in using Elsmar is looking at outdated information on here, somehow thinking it is still relevant. I posted to an old thread last time:
A2LA vs. NADCAP - Could someone explain the differences? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8910&page=3)

but think better to begin a new one so the information is easier to find for anyone wondering the same as me, and also those who DO know the answer will notice by the thread title.

ISO/IEC 17025 Registrars - I'm confused about "accredited" registrars for ISO 17025 (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=20901)

indicated that PJLA was not an ILAC signatory - and I was at first going with that info:rolleyes:, however since that post they have become one.

http://www.ilac.org/membersbycategory.html

Daniel Walker who was helpful said Along those lines, Perry Johnson does both 9001 and 17025 assessments. How is this possible. Wasn't NQA kept out of ILAC a few years ago for doing both? This was before my time, so I'm not familiar with the whole story.

Then there is the whole Perry Johnson Reputation thread :confused:
PJR (Perry Johnson) Reputation - What is it? Is it deserved? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14746&page=10)
of which the last post was 2007 - outdated??

Perry Johnson Inc says:ISO/IEC 17025 accreditation is a more thorough process than ISO 9000 registration because it recognizes a laboratory’s competence to produce technically valid results as well as its QMS conformance. When a laboratory is part of a larger facility, ISO/IEC 17025 accreditation can occur at the same time as ISO 9000, QS-9000 or ISO/TS 16949 registration if the auditor is working for both an accreditation body and a registrar.

http://www.pji.com/iso_standards.htm#isoiec17025


Perry Johnson Labs says:

A company built upon a solid 15-year foundation in quality, PJLA knows the field of laboratory quality and thoroughly understands the assessment and accreditation process.

PJLA was founded by Perry L. Johnson, one of the world's top experts and authors on ISO 9000 and a leading educator on the theories and practices of Total Quality Management. Early on, Mr. Johnson's United Kingdom affiliates were instrumental in formulating and implementing the ISO 9000 standards. Based on its heritage, its vast experience in the field of laboratory accreditation, and the expertise of its assessment staff, PJLA is destined to become one of the largest and most respected accreditation bodies in the United States.

With the recognized support of international organizations, our firm will be able to provide tremendous marketing and business advantages to our accredited laboratories, especially those with foreign business interests. A laboratory in Tokyo, for example, could accept test results from a laboratory in Cleveland knowing that both companies are assessed using parallel accreditation systems.

http://www.pjlabs.com/aboutPJLA.htm

Does anyone have any further information on this?
I'm not seeing PJLA and PJI actually connect their websites together in any way.....?
Are we focusing on the wrong thing by wanting to have 9001 and 17025 done at the same time to avoid the double audit on the lab arm of the business?
Are there other options besides Perry Johnson to have the same auditor for 9001&17025 to avoid duplication?
What is the current/2009 Perry Johnson reputation?
PJLA is internationally recognized through ILAC... which means something for their reputation, right?... is PJI also internationally recognized on the same level to certify for 9001? This is not as clear to me... perhaps because it requires more digging - connecting the chain and I haven't had any caffeine yet today. :p

Sorry about the unclickable links... I'm still a newbie poster... though I've been trying to glean info from these forums for a while now. :D

You can not have an ANAB accredited CB (doing your ISO 9001 certification) involved with ISO 17025 assessments because that practice has been prohibited by ANAB, once they acquired ACLASS and also got involved with laboratory accreditation. Check the hyper linked paper Accredited CBs and ISO/IEC 17025 (http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/HeadsUp/HU113.pdf)

As far as I know, PJLA and PJR are totally separate organizations. If they can do a simultaneous audit of your operation, I don't know, but the 9001 and 17025 audits would be separate ones, with different scopes and objectives.

You can not have an ANAB accredited CB (doing your ISO 9001 certification) involved with ISO 17025 assessments because that practice has been prohibited by ANAB, once they acquired ACLASS and also got involved with laboratory accreditation. Check the hyper linked paper Accredited CBs and ISO/IEC 17025 (http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/HeadsUp/HU113.pdf)

As far as I know, PJLA and PJR are totally separate organizations. If they can do a simultaneous audit of your operation, I don't know, but the 9001 and 17025 audits would be separate ones, with different scopes and objectives.

Ol' Perry has been known to be very creative...:notme:

Stijloor.

I'm going to have to read that memo a couple of times.

I'm not sure what you mean by 9001 and 17025 audits would be separate ones, with different scopes and objectives. When we compare the 17025 to 9001 there is considerable overlap in requirements, or as PJLA says "ISO/IEC 17025 incorporates all requirements of ISO 9001:2000 that are relevant to the scope of testing and calibration services covered by a laboratory's quality system; therefore, compliance with ISO/IEC 17025 indicates that a laboratory operates in accordance with the requirements outlined in ISO 9001:2000."

http://www.pjlabs.com/FAQ.htm

So can not one auditor look over the documents - ask the questions once and see it complies with both 9001 & 17025 rather than take two passes at it - or two seperate auditors looking at the documents twice and asking the same questions twice. I know there will be differences but it seems for certain some overlap...
Thanks for your info!

17025 accreditation is specifically for the laboratories. It does not apply to the rest of the organization. 9001, on the other hand encompasses most of the organization.

17025 accreditation is specifically for the laboratories. It does not apply to the rest of the organization. 9001, on the other hand encompasses most of the organization.

That I know.
9001 encompasses the organization of which one part is the lab.
However 17025 already requires many aspects of 9001 - there is overlap in quality focus... but has the additional focus on the technical aspect-competency of the lab.
I think we are talking in circles now... ?

We are not talking in circles on this one because ISO 9001 and ISO 17025 are two distinct standards. There may be some overlap of the requirements but at the end of the day you will need to obtain a certification from IAF signature QMS C/RAB and another from ILAC or APLAC (Lab) signature C/RAB.

IAF = International Accreditation Form
ILAC = International Laboratory Accreditation Cooperation
APLAC = Asia Pacific Laboratory Accreditation Cooperation

That I know.
9001 encompasses the organization of which one part is the lab.
However 17025 already requires many aspects of 9001 - there is overlap in quality focus... but has the additional focus on the technical aspect-competency of the lab.
I think we are talking in circles now... ?

It sounds like you answered your own question.:D

Yes, the quality management component of them both are highly similar. However, that's only 1/2 of the 17025, with the other 1/2 being the technical component.

We are not talking in circles on this one because ISO 9001 and ISO 17025 are two distinct standards. There may be some overlap of the requirements but at the end of the day you will need to obtain a certification from IAF signature QMS C/RAB and another from ILAC or APLAC (Lab) signature C/RAB.


Which I'm not disputing.

But is it impossible for an auditor to work with both a CB and an AB for 9001 and 17025 seperately... at the same time? I have PJI saying it's not impossible in laymans language?... I'm still not clear on the hyper linked paper Accredited CBs and ISO/IEC 17025 (http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/HeadsUp/HU113.pdf) posted because I don't find the writing style as clear. For example they say "resolution... regarding certification bodies that also certify laboratories to ISO/IEC 17025."
but I thought labs can't be certified to 17025, they are "accredited" so I find the language confusing? What exactly is the spirit behind 4.3.6 of 17011, and why?

and I don't understand why having one auditor do both would be a conflict or undesirable.... if someone can explain that.

It sounds like you answered your own question.:D

Yes, the quality management component of them both are highly similar. However, that's only 1/2 of the 17025, with the other 1/2 being the technical component.


Still having UNDERSTOOD that when I created this thread.. I'm not sure how this information really applies to answering my questions.
I'm not saying because we pass 9001 the lab should automatically be 17025... I'm saying IF the lab passes 17025 than we can assume that the applicable quality requirements for 9001 in the lab department are met. If its the same auditor then they already are familiar - asked all the QM questions as related to the lab specifically. I don't understand how the answer to that is people trying to clarify that 9001 and 17025 are two different standards which I know.. someone is thinking too simplistically and if it's me I'm going to need more/different explanation to understand.

I'm saying IF the lab passes 17025 than we can assume that the applicable quality requirements for 9001 in the lab department are met.I agree with that. If its the same auditor then they already are familiar - asked all the QM questions as related to the lab specifically. I don't understand how the answer to that is people trying to clarify that 9001 and 17025 are two different standards which I know.. someone is thinking too simplistically and if it's me I'm going to need more/different explanation to understand.In my experience here at The Cove, the clearer the question, the more likely one is able to answer in an affirmative way. It seems to me that you are going through tortuous ways to ask if you hire PJR and PJLA to perform your ISO 9001 and 17025 assessments, respectively, you can get reductions in terms of audit-days. Is that what you are asking?

I agree with that. In my experience here at The Cove, the clearer the question, the more likely one is able to answer in an affirmative way. It seems to me that you are going through tortuous ways to ask if you hire PJR and PJLA to perform your ISO 9001 and 17025 assessments, respectively, you can get reductions in terms of audit-days. Is that what you are asking?
:D well here was my original questions:
Does anyone have any further information on this?
I'm not seeing PJLA and PJI actually connect their websites together in any way.....?
Are we focusing on the wrong thing by wanting to have 9001 and 17025 done at the same time to avoid the double audit on the lab arm of the business?
Are there other options besides Perry Johnson to have the same auditor for 9001&17025 to avoid duplication?
What is the current/2009 Perry Johnson reputation?
PJLA is internationally recognized through ILAC... which means something for their reputation, right?... is PJI also internationally recognized on the same level to certify for 9001? This is not as clear to me... perhaps because it requires more digging - connecting the chain and I haven't had any caffeine yet today.

Which if I could try to simplify...
We would like to have the same auditor for both to reduce redundancy.
We are looking at Perry Johnson as it seems the most likely to be able to do this.
-If it IS possible has anyone heard of such a thing... with Perry Johnson or is it possible with other ABs/CBs - do we have other options than PJI/PJLA?
-Are there cons that outweigh the pros in putting too much emphasis on this requirement/condition when looking at ABs/CBs?
---ie if PJI& PJLA is our ONLY option for one auditor perhaps they are not the best option if their reputation is not as good, or if while the PJLA is signed up directly with ILAC... what about PJI - what is their relationship with IAF?

So if it simply were "to ask if you hire PJR and PJLA to perform your ISO 9001 and 17025 assessments, respectively, you can get reductions in terms of audit-days."... not really because I could just ask PJI and/or PJLA that question. hmm.. was there something about min-max number of audit days I saw somewhere? My desire also is not to drive the lab crazy with redundancy in questions and taking up THEIR time more than necessary during the audit. I have multiple questions on the topic to hopefully gain the BEST understanding of the situation.

Does that make more sense at all?

I agree with that. In my experience here at The Cove, the clearer the question, the more likely one is able to answer in an affirmative way. It seems to me that you are going through tortuous ways to ask if you hire PJR and PJLA to perform your ISO 9001 and 17025 assessments, respectively, you can get reductions in terms of audit-days. Is that what you are asking?Very insightful, Sidney! As I read through this thread, the same question crossed my mind - is the purpose of the inquiry into joint audit (I suppose by same auditor team) to save time and money?

It sees to me the OP has focused on PJ - my suggestion would be to invite PJ to make a written proposal so the OP and his organization can examine the difference between "sales hype" and what PJ actually promises in the proposal. After that, it might be worthwhile for the OP and his organization to poll major customers to see how comfortable they would feel with the deal proposed by PJ.

Bottom line:
Ultimately, saving pennies on the certification/registration is valueless if the customers won't/don't accept the deal.

:topic:A word of advice: Don't get caught in the analysis paralysis trap.