I am in the beginnings of a QS9000 implementation at a small manufacturing company and it seems that flowcharting will be the best way to document procedures, work instructions and such. I am trying to decide what software we should purchase. I have already excluded Visio as it is at the top of the price list, and it's an MSnot product. :frust:
The packages I am currently considering are Allclear, ConceptDraw, Smartdraw and iGrafx Flowcharter. I would greatly appreciate input from people who have used any of these products. I am looking for the best features and drawbacks (particularly the ones that you don't find until after purchasing). I am particularly interested in features which are relative to the QS/ISO docuymentation process.

All Clear would be my choice, but from the tone of your post you might want to look into a product such as MPACT that will do flow charting as well as control the entire product development process.

I like MPACT and there are also other products on the market that will do basically the same thing, I favor them because of their service and pricing structure.:bigwave:

www.integralsolutions.com

One I would stay away from is Powerway [edit] a source I have told me that Chrysler backed out of the deal and there may be no Powerway in the future. Also that Ford and G.M. want no part of an online service at this time.

Marc, I'm not sure if I am crossing the line here so edit as applicable. No response needed.:thedeal:

As long as you've used it, you can talk about it. But - If you're going to say 'Don't Buy' - please explain why.

I ask people not to simply leave it like you did - saying 'e-mail me and I'll tell you why they suck' in so many words. That's not fair, in my opinion.

If you don't like Powerway (now part of Chrysler) please explain why from experience or don't even mention them. :thedeal:

Why should price be a reason, other than being a MSnot program, for excluding Visio? There may be those, like me, who don't see their program of choice and can't can't cast their ballot!:eek: :biglaugh: :smokin:

Originally posted by energy
Why should price be a reason, other than being a MSnot program, for excluding Visio? There may be those, like me, who don't see their program of choice and can't can't cast their ballot!:eek: :biglaugh: :smokin: Tell me what program you want added to the poll and I'll add it so you can vote. Just for you... But - if you look at the original post, I think the idea was to get opinions on the 4 Jeff is considering. :thedeal:

I'm with you Energy.....I vote for Visio.:)

Originally posted by Sporty
I'm with you Energy.....I vote for Visio.:) An explaination why would be nice!

One other thought - have either of you used SmartDraw or any of the others? For example, SmartDraw will do everything Visio will do (including integration into MS Office) and is cheaper. Do you choose the most expensive product over features?

To finish off, MicroSoft is moving to the 'rental' model which these others are not doing - so, every year you'll have to pay for Visio or - they'll turn it off. :thedeal:

Nothing like cutting to the chase. :p You're right there. I have used only Excel and Word before Visio. So, I'm easily impressed. But, I think that most voters would not have used all the choices either. You old timers, like Al D and you:vfunny: have a better shot at comparing. What you will see is the applause for the most popular. It would be interesting to ask all the voters the same thing? :rolleyes: :smokin:

Looking back at the original post, I see said the blind man!:agree: :smokin:

I've used a bunch of flow chart programs. I usually just use powerpoint for what I do now - it's simple and all the office packages have it. Since I'm just doing examples - rather than actually doing systems per se, it's all I need. I think PowerPoint has become a curse on the world, though. But' that's another topic.

I've used Micrografx and SmartDraw most in the peecee world. I have two others flow chart programs on my PeeCee but can't remember their names - from working with clients some years back. To me Micrografx is a good program. The advantage I see to SmartDraw is they have collections of 'stuff', it all integrates with Office, and I've seen a client do one heck of an intranet system with it. Their company is a mix of MS stuff from Windows 95 to Windows 2000 - the same with the office programs - a mix of old and new. The IS guy gives people what they need and has it laid out very well - it all works. He stayed away from Visio because of price. It's a small company - maybe 130 people total. The IS guy is pretty darn good, actually.

I have not used the other programs mentioned, and my choice is not based on price, but on how easy it is to use and attach files to my procedures.
I was just expressing my opinion, and certainly didn't expect the reaction I got!

Sporty,

What did you expect?:confused:

> but on how easy it is to use and attach files to my procedures.

Which explains, at least in part, why you chose it. I would bet for many people Visio is the 'program of choice' because that's what they got from the IS folks - they don't have a choice.

If you're offended by my asking you to say why you prefer Visio, or if you had used any of the programs listed, I think they are valid questions, but meant no offense. I don't like people 'knocking' programs without a reason, either.

If you are offended by my pointing out the original post and what the thread started out as, before cries of VISIO!, I also think that was legitimate. Jeff asked about the four programs and energy started the "...well, where's my program of choice?..." bit which didn't address what Jeff was asking about.

Sporty, you've been around here for a while now. You know darn well we 'soapbox' here so you shouldn't be offended by any of this. :thedeal:

Originally posted by Marc
> Jeff asked about the four programs and energy started the "...well, where's my program of choice?..." bit which didn't address what Jeff was asking about. :thedeal:

Sporty Sporty:bigwave:

There's always room in my dog house for another:biglaugh:

Marc is absolutely right. I de-railed the thread with my Visio whining!:rolleyes: He is also right about most of us using what the IS guy has. If I had given it some thought, I would have started a new thread called" If you could afford Visio, would you prefer it over other types of "Wannabees" programs?:vfunny: :truce:

Originally posted by Marc
> ...I don't like people 'knocking' programs without a reason, either.... :thedeal:

Marc,

Point well taken, continuous learning!:bonk:

My personal opinion is we're lucky to still have a choice when it comes to Flow Charting programs. MickeySoft bought Visio but still charges extra - it's not part of the regular 'Office' package. For those of you who remember, there used to be some real good presentation software. LTV's 'More' is one I can remember. MS eliminated almost all the competition, as they did with Explorer (re: to browsers) for all intents and purposes by including Explorer with their OS 'package', by including PowerPoint in the Standard Office package. The others were, in my opinion, much nicer. Easier to use. More functions, too. But - it's hard to compete with free. :thedeal:

Sporty, I apologise if I was short and pointed in my post. I'll join the :truce: group. Now - back to the topic.

Thanks for making room in the doghouse for me energy! :bigwave:

I wasn't offended, just trying to give an opinion, never expecting it to go along like this.



:truce:

I have used both the iGrafx and Visio software for flowcharting,but don't feel happy enough with either of them to actually vote.

As powerfull, versitile diagramming software (flowcharts, org charts, network diagrams, office layouts, network diagrams, etc, they are good and the iGrafx "Process" softwarwe is amazing for analysing the performance of processes and discovering bottlenecks, eg bank teller staffing processes etc.
They are however far more than most people, I feel, need for documenting an ISO/QS system, and that is their weakness. Far to much on offer when you just want a simple job.

My flow charts only use 3 basic shapes, Start (and Stop), a box for a single step, a diamond for a descision point. Anymore I find confuse people and are not necessary.

I want to push a program called 4TQ (http://www.4tq.com) (I am just a user, not affiliated with them in ANY way).
The flow charting package of 4TQ offers just the basic symbols (a few more than I mentioned but they are just for layout) but it also enables you to produce fully formated Word (or any other WP) documents containing both the chart and any background details you add. It enables you to cross reference the whole flowchart it'self, or individual steps to an ISO/QS clause. It lets you link other flow charts or other documents (Word doc's, spreadsheet, database's, web pages, etc) to steps, and it has an integrated Audit scheduling and checklist production system.

Integrating 4TQFlow with anthoer program 4TQExplorer give you a complete ISO/QS/ISM/etc management system, with full audit scheduleing, crossreferencing, SPC, compliance referencing, and full website production. A screenshot is attached. (Excuse the caution signs indicating an audit is overdue).

Sorry to go on like this but this program has been a Godsend for me and I thought others would like to know (I guess I'm just a "raving fan").

Sporty,

Don't sweat the small things, we all have opinions and questions. And neither is wrong! Every participating member of this board is respected for both their questions and answers.

We are a better board for having you here!:bigwave:

> Sorry to go on like this but this program has been a
> Godsend for me and I thought others would like to know

James:

Very good evaluation. The length of your post is irrelevant and the passion is to be expected with respect to something you like. I have not heard of this specific program before, but it is better to know about than not to. Thank you! :thedeal:

Afternoon,

I have AllClear and really don't care for it. My boss uses it. Copying the chart into word is almost impossible. I much prefer Microsoft products.

Guess if I could figure out how to copy and paste and be able to edit it in Word I'd like it more.


Michelle

Or at no cost for Word users, you can use the flowcharting option included in the program. It's not as powerfull as the other programs but it is good for easy flow charts.

Originally posted by choices
Afternoon,
I have AllClear and really don't care for it. My boss uses it. Copying the chart into word is almost impossible. I much prefer Microsoft products.
Guess if I could figure out how to copy and paste and be able to edit it in Word I'd like it more.
Michelle

Michelle My Bell:bigwave:

I don't know where Adobe falls in but I can go from "Word" to "Visio" to "Adobe" (and any combination),so easy it defies description, except, that is so "easy" I want easy, no brainer stuff! If M.S. allows me to have that, give it here! I don't need to look at other stuff just because it may be popular to be "bashin" M.S. or demonstate my "intellectual".....:truce: :truce: :vfunny: Did you vote in the poll? Welcome to the Cove!:bigwave: :smokin

Energy, (and any others!)

Have you ever used just Word to do a flow chart?

Hello Group,

Have you ever used just Word to do a flow chart?

I do. Of course I haven't really tried these other programs. Word does a nice job, and it is easy to use (once you've played with it a while).
The other system I am working on is a CAD system (AUTOCAD). I found that I can copy my charts and documents from word to AUTOCAD and then I can enlarge or shrink the docs to create an overview with drilldown capability. Not as nice as some other systems I'm sure, but functional.

I do have a demo version of smart draw on my computer but haven't had much chance to play with it.

James

Al D.

I started out using Word. Others at work were using Visio. When I switched over, basically trying it out, I was very happy with the "features". The snap lines and the smart connector cut down dramatically on the amount of time and the careful positioning of the blocks or other types of symbols I was using . The new version's smart connector will find it's own way around obstacles to hook up to the point you want it to go. It automatically adds jumpers where lines interconnect and provides right angles without you having to do the line-up. By having this feature, you can quickly clean up your mess you were making without waiting for the finished product to "correct" the boo boos. The little PIA "yes" and "no" arrows are a snap compared to "word". I was happy with "Word', but at one time I was also happy without power steering:bonk: :smokin:

Michelle My Bell

Oh my! I haven't heard that in so long. Thanks for the smile.

I usually do my flow charts in Word. Everyone has it and can edit the flow charts. Oh by the way I did (once) in AllClear copy paste to word and then was able to edit it in Word but can't figure out how I did it. <g>

Michelle < Oh Happy Monday!

Thanks to all for the input. To clarify my reasons for not including Visio; I was not impressed with the price @$400 U.S. particularly when MS is planning to move to a rental model as mentioned earlier. Somehow I am disturbed by the idea of a company remotely disabling my software, particularly with UCITA looming over the U.S. (Orwell anyone?) I have also heard from several different sources that Smartdraw performs all the same functions with a price range of U.S. $70-200.

I was drawn to Allclear by the outlining feature where text is converted into a flow, which would seem to save time with formatting and possibly allow some interesting database interaction. Unfortunately the save is disabled in demo so I haven't gotten far enough to see how functional this really is. I also dont see any good way to integrate it other than hyperlinks.

ConceptDraw seems fairly impressive, but nothing really stands out over Smartdraw and it is priced @U.S.$275

Igrafix Flowcharter sounds impressive as it includes VBA which would be great for interacting with Access, Excel etc. however the demo is only available by mail and I have yet to receive it. This one is priced @U.S.$400 (Same as Visio) but it may be worth it if it can really integrate as well as claimed by Igrafix.

My goal here is to have most level 2 & 3 documentation in flow chart form. I would like to be able to flowdown from level 1 by clicking on any referenced sequrence or document into level 2 or 3. And from level 2 or 3 into the level 4 forms which are mostly Excel.

I am also in the process of converting much Excel stuff into Access with the goal of having a central repository for data rather than 8 zillion different files. Maybe someday we will even have a paperless system for inspection records & SPC :vfunny:. So any program that works well with Access would already be a step ahead.

Sorry to be so long-winded but hopefully I clarified what I am looking for.

Jeff,

Do you mean we were talking about all this for the sum of $500.00? Geez, you must have a cheap boss.:biglaugh:

I guess we have to look at the big picture and find out what works for our particular positions and systems.

I prefer a total package in my position and many more just want a stand alone system for flow charts. My opinion is that if you are using flow charts that are not part of a larger quality system that Word would serve the purpose.

Nobody says we have to upgrade to XP and fill MS pockets. Use the tools at hand until something better comes along. I work with companies that still use W95!

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used Word and found it to be a PIA when I wanted to include text, separate from the flow chart, or when it was multiple pages. I didn't play too much (Help - usually didn't) so I use Visio for the clients that have it - onsite, and Word for those who don't. I haven't tried the rest, but appreciate the poll, because it will give me some good direction if I need to suggest a package to someone. thanks

I used Word and found it to be a PIA when I wanted to include text, separate from the flow chart, or when it was multiple pages

Laura,

I found the best way to include the text you want seperate from the flow chart is to open a text box, type in your text then format the box with transparent lines. This works well and you can move the text around if you need to change the flowchart.


James

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Jeff,
Do you mean we were talking about all this for the sum of $500.00? Geez, you must have a cheap boss.:biglaugh:

We are a very small company, <30 people running 2 shifts 7 days. Management = 3 people (and thats counting me :confused: ). Our largest customer got a job for a B3 and we're caught in the sub-contractor crossfire. They want QS9000 but they wont pay.
Originally posted by Al Dyer
Jeff,
Nobody says we have to upgrade to XP and fill MS pockets. Use the tools at hand until something better comes along. I work with companies that still use W95!
Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with that. We run Win98 & Office97 with no plans to upgrade (at least until Linux becomes a more viable solution for the desktop).
But if software can save me 20 hours of work and costs less than paying me for 20 hours, it seems worthwhile to me.

Thanks, JRKH - I don't remember if I tried text boxes. That may have solved it. HOw about multiple pages tho.? From what I recall, you can't use regular "page break" functions. You can't just do a Flowchart and have it figure out where to put pages.

But I agree - for a company that doesn't need to spend the $ - and for small companies, that's usually the way, then it does a fine job. Marc's always recommended Powerpoint too, which most places have.

are in the web some site where I can find a freeware to flowchart use. (not demo)
Regards
Arte

I can across this URL that says freeware. At the bottom of the URL are more links.

http://www.smartdraw2.com/qualityassurance1.htm

Michelle

Originally posted by Arte
are in the web some site where I can find a freeware to flowchart use. (not demo)
Regards
Arte

I bought SmartDraw a couple years ago because a client used it. I like it and it's only (well was - haven't looked recently) US$50. There was a 'professional' version for about US$100. Does everything Visio does and more including nested flow charts, links, 'Office' integration, etc. I also have Micrografix Flowcharter 7 (another client used it). It's OK but not as intuitive to use as SmartDraw. Again, the versions I have are a couple years old so they have, I'm sure, 'evolved'.

For smaller clients I recommend PowerPoint because they all have it. If you don't need to get fancy it's easy to use.

> I have not used the other programs mentioned, and my
> choice is not based on price, but on how easy it is to use
> and attach files to my procedures. I was just expressing
> my opinion, and certainly didn't expect the reaction I
> got!

We're just talking. You bought the right tool for the job at hand and cost was not an object which is good.

Marc,
How do you make a flowchart in powerpoint?

Well, you just have to look closely at Powerpoint. It has built in flow chart symbols, all sorts of connectors, etc. It even tells you what each symbol stands for in the shapes pallet when your mouse is over a symbol. I'm not trying to sell Powerpoint - I only suggest it for small companies which do not need the 'power' of SmartDraw, Visio or several others.

I will admit that I use Powerpoint a lot because I work mainly on my Mac. I have a couple of very good Mac flow chart programs but I typically have to work with a client so Powerpoint is a good 'intermediate' across platforms. But if the client uses SmartDraw (or whatever) then I buy that program and work on my peecee. One of my current clients has everything on Micrografix Flowcharter 7 - so I work on their files in that.

If you really want to see flow charts in powerpoint there are some in the Members Access directory (for example the file QS9000_Overview.ppt in the Automotive directory) has a couple and there are many in the Premium Access directory - especially in the ISO directory in the Flow_Charts_for_2000.ppt file.

Powerpoint is more powerful than many folks realize.

You can also do flow charts in Word, but they're much harder to do. I stay away from flow charts in Word.

I use allCLEAR. Since Proquis Inc. bought the product they cut the price and cleared the bugs. It is very quick to produce and if you have to make changes it can redraw the lines etc. automatically. I have used Visio and several others - I guess it's 5 time faster to produce and 10 times faster to amend.

It does have a few annoying querks - don't they all!

I haven't experienced difficulty in exporting to word - or HTML etc. Seems to be fast even if it does have a few too many options.

allCLEAR gets my vote - 3 user licence and 50 people use it often without breaking the licence.

I used Word but had problems with the various shapes moving.
I now use Excel, it is the same as Word with the drawing toolbar but the shapes do not move.
There are a limited number of shapes but I think this prevents the flow chart from becoming to complicated.
For comments you can use the callouts, there are a large number and connect directly to the shapes.
There is even the posibility of alignment etc to tidy up afterwards.
Why spend more money.

Howard, I used excel quite a lot before we got allclear but when I come to make changes the connections get lost and it just takes ages. I suppose if you have time it isn't an issue. My problem is: if it needs changing - I need it yesterday.

The other thing I've just got into is putting some data behind the boxes and then taking a look at the process by simulating it. Some of the results made me rethink what we do. I bought that analyser version off the web at about £350 - It saved me that on the first process analysis.

For all thanks for your comments about the software, I analized your replies and my opinion is that I get a trouble for simple solution, because I have to use the tool I have, but sometimes we choose the most difficult way
Regards
Arte

I have used Visio, Mpact and iGrafx Flowcharter (actual Process for Six Sigm.)

Visio: Cad-based, too much art-work, spend too much time futzing around with the picture.

Mpact: Expressly developed for APQP. If that's what you need it for and can come up with the bucks, this is the way I'd go.

Flowcharter: Good for process mapping. The process versions allow you to design and run simulations. Very powerful. I find flow charting faster with this product than Visio.

Marc Richarsdon

At work, I use Visio because that is what the corporate IT dictators tell us we have to use. (I am a contract worker in a very tiny department of a very huge Fortune 100 corporation ... I don't have the horsepower to make those kind of waves!)

At home, I have used AllClear since version 1.something. I tend to think in text outline form, so for me the AllClear text input mode is ideal. (I can understand a picture, but please don't make me draw one!)

Graeme

As this thread has taken off again, I have added another option, that of the drawing tools in Office.

I have used MicroGrafx for years (began with ABC Flowcharter), and continue to use it when I have a choice. I have also been limited by IT to using either the limited capabilities of MsWord/Excel or Visio (although they continually complain about the cost of licensing for Visio).

My personal opinion of Visio is that although it is a very capable program, it is cumbersome and overburdened since it attempts to be a jack-of-all-trades (Block diagrams, Business diagrams, Database, Flowcharts, Maps, Network diagrams, etc.) - it ends up being a master of none.

I have not used any others so will remain silent on them at this time.

I'm trying out a very simple flowcharter called Paraben's flowcharter 4.15.
I agree with Dave regarding Visio yet, it does work well with MS office products.
Wallace.

I've only used Visio and Word/Excel. The latter is limited and a bit hard to use, but okay if you don't have too many to do and/or the flowcharts are relatively simple. Visio seems very powerful and was easy enough for a dummy like me to begin using it pretty well after just a hour or 2 of playing around. There may be other programs that are better, though I cannot say as I have not used them.

I have tried allClear and also Visio but found that the best tool for process mapping was an add on to the Visio package called Process Navigator from a company called Triaster (http://www.triaster.co.uk). You need Visio as well as this software but can get a 30 day trial before you buy. The good thing is that the software forces you to create proces maps correctly in that you have a process and a deliverable, this makes inputs and outputs work. They also provide a tool called Process Analyst to integrate separate maps into an overall business map, you can see and check the links between each process.

Yeah,
I met with the Canadian disributor of this program recently. It's an awsome program yet you do need visio to use this program.
The fact that you can drill down into a process using this program is a great function.
Wallace.

RFFlow is freeware up to a point -- and even then you can bypass that point.

I'm not gonna plug this product at all. But I'm happy with it. Check it out.

www.rff.com

RFFlow is freeware up to a point -- and even then you can bypass that point.

I'm not gonna plug this product at all. But I'm happy with it. Check it out.

www.rff.com (http://www.rff.com)I did check this out. I was very impressed by the ability to create custom "stencils" of symbols from the extensive library offered.

Building a flow chart was a dream (drag from the stencil and drop on the chart)

Labeling was very intuitive.

Best of all, a user working in a Microsoft document can just capture all or part of the chart and paste it directly into the document with no intervening steps.

I may not be typical, but it took me less than ten minutes from the time I downloaded and installed the program to create my own custom stencil, make a flow chart, paste it into a document and print it out.

For free, this is way better than the drawing tools that come with Word!:agree1:

I did check this out. I was very impressed by the ability to create custom "stencils" of symbols from the extensive library offered.

Building a flow chart was a dream (drag from the stencil and drop on the chart)

Labeling was very intuitive.

Best of all, a user working in a Microsoft document can just capture all or part of the chart and paste it directly into the document with no intervening steps.

I may not be typical, but it took me less than ten minutes from the time I downloaded and installed the program to create my own custom stencil, make a flow chart, paste it into a document and print it out.

For free, this is way better than the drawing tools that come with Word!:agree1:

Wes,

As a somewhat experienced user of Visio, one of the negative aspects of that program that I have experienced is that if I copy and save a Visio chart in a MsWord, Excel, or Powerpoint file - only those with Vision or the Visio Reader can view the chart (unless I save the chart as an image file, then import the image file). Does RFFlow function similarly, or can any viewer of the Mickey-Soft file see the chart?
:confused:

Wes,

As a somewhat experienced user of Visio, one of the negative aspects of that program that I have experienced is that if I copy and save a Visio chart in a MsWord, Excel, or Powerpoint file - only those with Vision or the Visio Reader can view the chart (unless I save the chart as an image file, then import the image file). Does RFFlow function similarly, or can any viewer of the Mickey-Soft file see the chart?
:confused:I'll tell you what - when I get a break later today or tonight, I'll construct a nonsense chart and clip and paste it into a variety of Mickey-Soft files (doc, rtf, ppt, excel) and post them. Remember, there are free readers for PowerPoint - we've mentioned it here in the Cove before. The software also allows saving chart as gif (graphics interchange format) or jpeg (Joint Photographic Experts Group) formats.

Once I do that, we'll know for sure.
Warning - this will be a priority for me, but not HIGH priority - I may not do this until very late tonight.
Second warning - this will only be the second chart I've made with the software, so be gentle with criticism, especially about the "nonsense" part of the chart.

As a somewhat experienced user of Visio, one of the negative aspects of that program that I have experienced is that if I copy and save a Visio chart in a MsWord, Excel, or Powerpoint file - only those with Vision or the Visio Reader can view the chart (unless I save the chart as an image file, then import the image file). Does RFFlow function similarly, or can any viewer of the Mickey-Soft file see the chart?
:confused:

I'm using Viseo almost every day now and, I'm as usual disapointed with MS.
Viseo is a part of the MS business use suite and, I don't understand why MS products don't have the appropriate program dll file for reading Viseo visuals.
Viseo gives me all of the functions that I may need for communicating yet, It does tend to try and be all things to all users.
The reader program is needed by those who don't have the program but, wish to view visuals the way the user does, this seems to be the standard throughout software profiles. I'm guessing it would be the same for RFflow.
Wallace.

I also use Visio A LOT. I actually liked it better before it became assimilated into the "Microsoft Borg Collective". After the 'assimilation' I had to learn to get around the MS "improvements".

Most of its features are great (once you get used to them) but I do get irritated with the supposedly "intuitive" snapping to a grid - it is fussy and doesn't always let me put a box or line exactly where I want it.

I never use programs not designed for flowcharting to make flowcharts, like Excel or Word.

HOWEVER, contrary to someone's prior comment, you can copy and paste a Visio flowchart (or a portion of one) into Word and when you open a Word document with a Visio flowchart pasted into it you CAN open it and see the chart. Now, if you double-click inside the chart it will try to open and fail if you do not have Visio. But that should not be a problem for the casual reader.

As a test, open the following Word document:

I've just downloaded the rfflowcharter program. It's pretty good for a freebie.
I called the RFF folk and asked them about the program. The trial version is unlimited in its use, you can use it forever if you wish. If you want to send an rfflowchart to a recipient, they shall need the unlimited trial program installed to read a flowchart the way you have developed it. The trial version acts as a reader.
You can place the flowchart saved as a Bitmap into Word easily.
Wallace.

I've just downloaded the rfflowcharter program. It's pretty good for a freebie.
I called the RFF folk and asked them about the program. The trial version is unlimited in its use, you can use it forever if you wish. If you want to send an rfflowchart to a recipient, they shall need the unlimited trial program installed to read a flowchart the way you have developed it. The trial version acts as a reader.
You can place the flowchart saved as a Bitmap into Word easily.
Wallace.Let's agree on a distinction:
"Collaboration" with flowcharts means second or third party can not only read (see) the chart, but also manipulate it [with the same or similar software.]

"Distribution" of flowcharts means the intended user can read [see] the flowchart as if it had been hardprinted in a book or on a poster.

Wallace seems to imply collaboration:
If you want to send an rfflowchart to a recipient, they shall need the unlimited trial program installed to read a flowchart the way you have developed it. The trial version acts as a reader. Was Dave [ddhartma] looking for collaboration (like Wallace) or distribution (like Rob Nix)? Distribution would seem to be the method of choice for documents which need to be "controlled."

Depending on your control preferences or constraints, I believe both distinctions may apply.
Wallace.

Let's agree on a distinction:
"Collaboration" with flowcharts means second or third party can not only read (see) the chart, but also manipulate it [with the same or similar software.]

"Distribution" of flowcharts means the intended user can read [see] the flowchart as if it had been hardprinted in a book or on a poster.

Wallace seems to imply collaboration:
Was Dave [ddhartma] looking for collaboration (like Wallace) or distribution (like Rob Nix)? Distribution would seem to be the method of choice for documents which need to be "controlled."

Wes,

I am looking for "distribution".

Thanks for defining the difference and asking.
:thanks:

I haven't figured out how to "paste" into Excel, Access, or PowerPoint (versus creating Gif or Jpeg file to insert.) Here are "clip and paste" for doc (Word 2000 and Word 95) Cove does not provide for upload of rtf (rich text format), but it works fine in that.
Remember - gentle about content!
Native program to create chart = RFFLOW Version 5.0

Added in edit: Yes, I realize I will have to RTFM! (Does this acronym need explaining?) The point was: what could I do without reading it?

Hi, guys -- me again!

Try PDF reDirect if you wanna distribute your flowcharts. It's freeware. It's beeyutiful. RFFlow can print directly to it.

It's a printer driver (which you install like a printer), but when you "print" with it, it creates a PDF file, which you can view directly afterwards, using Adobe Acrobat Reader.

www.exp-systems.com

Have fun! :biglaugh:

I haven't figured out how to "paste" into Excel, Access, or PowerPoint (versus creating Gif or Jpeg file to insert.) Here are "clip and paste" for doc (Word 2000 and Word 95) Cove does not provide for upload of rtf (rich text format), but it works fine in that.
Remember - gentle about content!
Native program to create chart = RFFLOW Version 5.0

Added in edit: Yes, I realize I will have to RTFM! (Does this acronym need explaining?) The point was: what could I do without reading it?

Wes,

It appears to distribute well, and without getting into the details of your defined process, I like the overall look of it.

:thanks:

I am the author of RFFlow so I am financially connected to RFF Electronics and RFFlow. I do understand how RFFlow works, so I can answer any questions you have about it. RFFlow is an OLE server, so you can copy and paste charts into other Windows Applications, like Word, Power Point, etc.
When you double-click on an RFFlow chart pasted into Word, RFFlow will run for you to edit the chart.

RFFlow also allows you to Save As GIF, HTML, JPEG, and BMP. For charts without photographs, GIF is probably the best. You can generate a PDF file if you have Adobe Acrobat 6 installed. You simply print to the "Adobe PDF" printer. You can also generate .EPS and .PLT files by printing to a file.

The free trial version is also a free viewer. It has no expiration and can open any size chart. The restriction on the trial is somewhat confusing. The trial allows you to draw charts of up to 24 shapes. Lines and curves are not counted. You can open a chart having more than 24 shapes, but you can't add to it. E-mail me if you have specific questions.

Roger

I am the author of RFFlow so I am financially connected to RFF Electronics and RFFlow. I do understand how RFFlow works, so I can answer any questions you have about it. RFFlow is an OLE server, so you can copy and paste charts into other Windows Applications, like Word, Power Point, etc.
When you double-click on an RFFlow chart pasted into Word, RFFlow will run for you to edit the chart.

RFFlow also allows you to Save As GIF, HTML, JPEG, and BMP. For charts without photographs, GIF is probably the best. You can generate a PDF file if you have Adobe Acrobat 6 installed. You simply print to the "Adobe PDF" printer. You can also generate .EPS and .PLT files by printing to a file.

The free trial version is also a free viewer. It has no expiration and can open any size chart. The restriction on the trial is somewhat confusing. The trial allows you to draw charts of up to 24 shapes. Lines and curves are not counted. You can open a chart having more than 24 shapes, but you can't add to it. You can reach me at roger@rff.com if you have specific questions.

RogerHow interesting!
:bigwave: Welcome to the Cove, Roger.
Did you visit and join as a result of WALLACE's phone inquiry?
I note the RFFlow help file states
If you move the documents to another computer, you also have to move the RFFlow file to be able to edit the chart. If you do not move the RFFlow file, the chart will still appear in the documents, but it cannot be edited. which confirms our initial analysis that the chart remains static in the "distributed" document when cut and pasted if the computer displaying the document does NOT have RFFlow installed.

I suppose it also means that an author of a chart should convert it to gif or jpeg format to assure it will not be modified (a big deal in Document Control.)

I still haven't figured out how to clip and paste into Excel or PowerPoint. I will RTFM for a little bit later today, then, if no success, I may take you up on your generous offer.

(I am the author of RFFlow and I am financially connected to RFF Electronics, www.rff.com, and RFFlow.)

The way Copy and Paste works in OLE is that the source application provides the data in several formats. Lets say I copy and paste a chart from RFFlow into Word. RFFlow provides Word with a metafile, bitmap, and RFFlow source data. Word keeps all of these. It ususally displays the chart as a metafile. When the user double-clicks on the chart inside Word, it tells RFFlow to run and gives RFFlow the RFFlow source data. If Word can't find RFFlow, Word will let it's own editor run and open the metafile data.

The bottom line is that the chart still shows up in Word, even if RFFlow is not present. You just can't easily edit the chart. That is the way it works for almost all Windows applications, not just RFFlow.

If you want the chart to be not easily edited, then you can Save As a GIF or JPEG. If the destination user has the RFFlow trial, then you should make the chart Read Only before attaching the .flo file to your email. This is enough to keep most users from editing it.

To Copy and Paste you open the chart in RFFlow, click Edit, Select All. Then click Edit, Copy. Switch to a destination application like PowerPoint and click Edit, Paste. If you only want part of your chart, then first select only part of it by dragging the mouse to draw a rectangle around that part of your chart.

Silly me. "I see!" said the blind man.

I was apparently too tired last night to remember to "right click copy" when I was fiddling with the PowerPoint last night - it works fine whether I

draw the selection rectangle with the mouse in RFFlow and then right click copy; move to the PowerPoint slide and right click paste
OR
click Edit, Select all, then Edit, Copy, move to PowerPoint slide and click Edit, Paste Special
the chart copies to the new application.

I'll try it out later tonight with other applications.

(As always, computers usually work the same way every time; it is the human element that has the most glitches.)

Hi, Roger,

Welcome to the Cove from me, too! I'm the guy who e-mailed you about the two open windows plus cut+paste (SAMRO, South Africa). Seems I've "opened another window" here, too!

Dan. :applause:

One man’s opinion.

Set the way back machine for the mid 80’s.
Do you recall the raging debate: DOS PC or Apple ?

I’ve was a mechanical designer back then, and used the computer for engineering stuff.
All the cool and powerful applications were written for DOS – Apple; no’da.

My brother-in-law (an army officer) was a huge champion for Apple, and waved their flag wherever a soapbox could be found. He used the computer to make presentations, and grocery list kind’a stuff.

One day we were arguing the merits of the systems we used, and I said:

“Train someone on DOS, and another on Apple. Let them get good, and switch computers. The guy who was DOS trained knows what he’s doing, and will figure out the Apple in a few minutes. The Apple guy will be hopelessly lost. My argument – More knowledge = better system.

His answer:
….So that makes it better? No: That makes it worse! I don’t have time to train the new guy, I want him to be able to figure it out in a few minutes, by himself. I conceded the debate.

Visio would make my brother-in-law happy. Especially if you already know how to draw on PC.

Interesting that this thread would pop back to the top once more, and just in time.

I had to write a paper for Monday night's Business Communications class on business communications within my workplace, and had to include an organizational chart. I used RFFlow for the org chart and was asked by the facilitator if I would share with the rest of the class how I got such a "professional" looking org chart. I expect that there are now a few more RFFlow users in the world today.;)

Interesting that this thread would pop back to the top once more, and just in time.

I had to write a paper for Monday night's Business Communications class on business communications within my workplace, and had to include an organizational chart. I used RFFlow for the org chart and was asked by the facilitator if I would share with the rest of the class how I got such a "professional" looking org chart. I expect that there are now a few more RFFlow users in the world today.;)
Yes! RFFlow is more than adequate for most drawing.
Note they have a free version (limited only by number of objects on the drawing) which can be imported into Word (microsoft) or Open Office (Sun), a free Office suite. An inexpensive workaround for fiscally challenged folks is to download both free programs and use RFFlow to make portions of flow charts or other diagram-type drawings and import or export to Open Office to exceed the object limit in the free version of RFFlow. Open Office has a drawing module similar to Word.

Link to Open Office
http://www.openoffice.org/
Link to RFFlow
http://www.rff.com/download.htm

Hmm, missed this on the second go round. We've been using RFFlow since 2001. My recommendation to the company as we needed a flow chart program, it was much more than adequate, worked nicely with microsft applications and was intuitive and easy to learn how to use it. I still really like it - it functions elegantly.

We will be switching to Visio - a directive from the corporate IT department in Sweden. They like to standardize on Microsoft applications or on programs provided by Swedish software companies. My blasted document control program is at times a nightmare. I understand its basic use, the problem arises that even though this version is supposed to be for international use with English as the language many of the warnings/notices pop-up in Swedish. I've gotten pretty good at guessing what they mean, but it does make addressing and correcting them harder.

I have used Microgaphix, Smartdraw and Visio. My votes goes to Visio. I have been enable to make very complex and detailed flowcharts using Visio that was beyond the capabilities of either of the other two products.

Disliking a product simply because you don't like the developer is small-minded. Opiting out because of price is acceptable.

Hmm, I didn't really say whether I liked or disliked Visio - do not really know enough about it to say. I will say that in general I'm not thrilled with Microsoft's programs and how I have experienced their operation (Word & Excel are OK). I said I'm not fond of our document control system, and the fact that it truly has not been adapted for an English speaking user. I'm also not happy that we chose RFFlow before the corporate policy regarding use of Microsoft products was known to the local US Division. I truly hate having to do work twice - learning to use a particular application program for a task and doing the task and now having to repeat both actions. I can think of few things that are more deleterious to efficiency, profits, and morale than such actions.

I have used:
All Clear
Visio
RFFlow
Excel
Quality America QC-SPC-IV flow section

Excel is as easy and detailed as any,
RFFlow is good too, and
SPC-IV is OK,
Visio a litle more time consuming,
All Clear too time consuming.

JMO

I use ABC Flowcharter from Micrografx, now evolved to IGrafx. Aside from basics, features important to me are:

1. the ability to move a process box or decision diamond or whatever around while maintaining the arrow lines (doesn't break) connected to them. This helps in faster development.

2. to easily number or renumber

3. ability and ease to hyperlink to other documents

4. ability to print to standard paper sizes

5. the ability to put it all on an intranet. (limited in ABC)

6. for document control, the ability to allow or disallow users to view, and edit, and if to edit, to keep track of changed versions. (not in ABC but I see its in IGrafx with even more features).

7. Bonus feature, to be able to assign variables or field values, enabling some form of calculations of what goes in and what goes out. (limited in ABC)

8. Bonus feature, should be based on Open Source,or offer long term safety of the data eg. If the company changes decision to use some other software, can the data be easily transferred to the new software with minimum loss of time. One of the reasons I like OpenOffice too (can do excel or word files, can print out to pdf without having to buy Adobe etc).

These are some of my thoughts.

I find the Office packages are more versatile than Visio.

I did try the flowchart add-in in PowerPoint once or twice but I didn't get on with that I found it quite restrictive.

At work, I use Visio because that is what the corporate IT dictators tell us we have to use. (I am a contract worker in a very tiny department of a very huge Fortune 100 corporation ... I don't have the horsepower to make those kind of waves!)

At home, I have used AllClear since version 1.something. I tend to think in text outline form, so for me the AllClear text input mode is ideal. (I can understand a picture, but please don't make me draw one!)

Graeme

I noticed this thread has floated up into visible range again ... so here's an update.

Still forced to use Visio at work, except with the switch to XP and Office 2003 "they" took away my old Visio Technical and replaced it with the standard version. It's OK for flowcharts, but it doesn't have what I need for the other 80% of my drawing needs. (I did manage to save the electronics engineering libraries from the old version so all is not totally lost.)

At home / private business I have started using SmartDraw, because I needed something there and it would be a very long time before my micro-business can afford the other one. I'm very happy with it, and with the price.

Graeme

I don't say its 'the best', but I use SmartDraw.

Because I was a beta tester years ago and got the program for free....

:topic: Was one of the good tips I got from my QA/PM mentor.
Try to be a beta tester for programs. You can have some great little programs for free...;)

I have used Microgaphix, Smartdraw and Visio. My votes goes to Visio. I have been enable to make very complex and detailed flowcharts using Visio that was beyond the capabilities of either of the other two products.

Disliking a product simply because you don't like the developer is small-minded. Opiting out because of price is acceptable.
I like Visio. I was only introduced to it last year and now most of our process flows are produced using this tool. You can make them as simple or complex as you wish and is really remarkably easy to use.
However, sometimes I use a good old Word document. Some people cannot follow flow charts and like to read from left to right! After all it is these people that have to follow them.

I have used Visio with the last two companies that I developed the process maps for. Works well with a little tweaking here and there.

Hi
I have used visio many times and find that it is an excellent tool to work with. Our Quality Manual was once created in Visio and our only drawbacks were that other people could not view the docs if they didn't have visio installed on their pc. Unless you have a tardis connection with your server where everything is live and you can't save anything to your hard drive - and of course if it is not installed on your pc then you can't view the files. But that is the same with any software used within companies. We all now have visio access so it is not a problem currently. I have also used visio for all organisational structures as well as all flowcharts in my HACCP plan. It is very easy to use and operates under a generic flowchart tool system. So all in all I give it the thumbs up!!!!!:agree1:

Hi
I have used visio many times and find that it is an excellent tool to work with. Our Quality Manual was once created in Visio and our only drawbacks were that other people could not view the docs if they didn't have visio installed on their pc. Unless you have a tardis connection with your server where everything is live and you can't save anything to your hard drive - and of course if it is not installed on your pc then you can't view the files. But that is the same with any software used within companies. We all now have visio access so it is not a problem currently. I have also used visio for all organisational structures as well as all flowcharts in my HACCP plan. It is very easy to use and operates under a generic flowchart tool system. So all in all I give it the thumbs up!!!!!:agree1:They just need a Visio Viewer (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3fb3bd5c-fed1-46cf-bd53-da23635ab2df&DisplayLang=en).

iGrafx has features like converting the flow chart into a PPT.Some more are
Page connectors,Cross department activities,real time error check etc besides being 'intelligent'

I use Visio. It is a simple drag and drop and you can make any type of flow chart (with the professional version), org charts and so on.

I "test drove" a bunch of them via their 30-day downloads. I selected RF Flow, inexpensive and easy!

Madfox

I have stated that I use VISIO (and Love it) but apparently 'Open Office' (the freeware program) has a built in Flowcharter that isn't too bad. I have downloaded the Open Office software and installed it but as yet have not had time to review all of the suite.

Visio for me, and not just because of the flowchart functionality, it's always quite strong as a graphical editor, it lets you modify clipart easily, make new shapes, etc. I'm not a MS-fan really, but this program is good.

Ohyeah, and the best way to make the visiofiles available for public is a copy paste as picture to Word.

I just started using Visio amd have found it cumbersome but more compatible with Word vs. Micrografx Flowcharter, which is less compatible but easier to use.

Re AllClear, to copy flowcharts into word just right click on the page and it will automatically save it as a metafile, then just copy it into word.

Puttingace

I just started using Visio amd have found it cumbersome but more compatible with Word vs. Micrografx Flowcharter, which is less compatible but easier to use.

What do you find so cumbersome about Visio? Just curious.

For me, I've almost reached the point where I'm using flip charts, markers and post-it notes! If anyone wants to see a flow chart, I point at the wall.

I use MS Office Drawing tools for all my flow charts! Believe it or not that is very sophisticated for my company!

It does the job as long as the flow charts aren't too complex! The data is also static!

You can download a free flowcharter from http://www.q-skills.com/qs.htm
This flowcharter is specifically designed for quality related flowcharting, according to ISO9004.4. It prevents users creating non standard symbols, to ensure ease of understanding.
It is the only flowcharter that has a build-in validity checker, to enable flowcharting by unskilled users in improvement teams.
It includes many sophisticated features such as automatic line drawing and routing, 99 levels of subprocesses, swim lanes, automatic documentation generation, time and cost calculations.

:D I definitely like Smartdraw. Been using it for about 5 years. The easiest program to start making flowcharts with, but very professional charts. Also the price is right.
Mark:magic:

I'm used to Visio, but wanted to try the Q-Skills SW - I couldn't download. I'll try later but for now I vote for Visio. Thanks Mary.:thanx:

What do you find so cumbersome about Visio? Just curious.

For me, I've almost reached the point where I'm using flip charts, markers and post-it notes! If anyone wants to see a flow chart, I point at the wall.

I'm all in favour of going back to post-it notes on the wall. My experience is that you get far better interaction, leading to flowcharts that reflect what actually happen in the workplace. Get everyone involved in a room,give them a pad and a pen, let them write their own descriptions, switch the post-its around, find the weakness and suggest their own improvements.
When you've got the content right, the software you choose to use is just a case of what you consider to give the best presentation which enables everyone to read,understand and practice what you have established by consensus to be the best work practice. For what its worth, I'm in the Visio camp - the technical edition has lots of other applications that are useful, but that's just a personal opinion.

I'm all in favour of going back to post-it notes on the wall. My experience is that you get far better interaction, leading to flowcharts that reflect what actually happen in the workplace. Get everyone involved in a room,give them a pad and a pen, let them write their own descriptions, switch the post-its around, find the weakness and suggest their own improvements.
When you've got the content right, the software you choose to use is just a case of what you consider to give the best presentation which enables everyone to read,understand and practice what you have established by consensus to be the best work practice. For what its worth, I'm in the Visio camp - the technical edition has lots of other applications that are useful, but that's just a personal opinion.

I find it hard to believe that post-it notes and flip charts could ever be as effective at communicating information as a well laid out flow chart using any software! I mean perhaps initial discussions, but not for the actual flow chart that will be used! But IMO post-it notes are evil parts of office life! Some companies have actually banned post-it notes from being used!

Not very 5S either to have post it notes scattered everywhere!

As far as I'm concerned, the best choice is Excel of Office,which is not easier to draw a flowchart,but the flowchart,as attachments,can be integrated conveniently into documents,especially when documents are issued as electronics.

As far as I'm concerned, the best choice is Excel of Office,which is not easier to draw a flowchart,but the flowchart,as attachments,can be integrated conveniently into documents,especially when documents are issued as electronics.

Fireonce,

The (free) Q-Skills flowcharter not only makes creating flowcharts very easy, it also enables them to be easily incorporated into documents, because it automatically creates a *.wmf version of the flowchart, for this purpose.

In addition, it generates an output as a text file, allowing the flowchart to be readily processed by Word or Excel macros or programs. An example of a Word macro is included, which automatically generates ISO documentation or an html document. Most important, is Q-Skills Flowcharter's unique automatic validity checker, which ensures that the flowchart is logically correct. ( I remember once having seen an old Visio ad that actually showed a logically impossible flowchart ! )

Mary,
Please try accessing the flowcharter on the web site.

Marc Edit Note: Web site is in artichoke's profile. (http://elsmar.com/Forums/member.php?u=31516) Disclaimer: artichoke works for Q-Skills.

I've previously used AllClear and have gone back to Visio. From a functionality standpoint, I really liked AllClear and thought it was easier to use than Visio. Unfortunately, the software didn't play nice with other (standard) software I had installed (on 3 different machines), so I eventually had to go back to Visio.

I've used smart draw, word, powerpoint and visio previously, all good depending upon the companies requirements/resources, but at the moment I'm evaluating 4TQ from Axion (it was mentioned much earlier in this thread).
I'm currently implementing management systems in a local government council.

Early indications look good, the flow charts are easy to draw and a lot of detail can be included in the background at each point in the flow chart, which then converts to a word document at the click of a button to produce different formats of work instructions / SOP's, as well as internal audit check sheets for the process.
It also enables drill downs to sub-processes and links to other documents or even web pages!
There are a heap of other features, including review period, document control, process owner, process checksheets and this is just in the flow charting module!
There are also a heap of other modules that can be "added" on, including the ability to convert existing word document work instructions into flow charts, upload to internet/intranet, policy & compliance, action records and risk management.

The negatives - the obvious one is the cost, anywhere from A$5k to A$20k, depending upon the modules purchased, so it does really demand a big commitment from the organisation (which can't be a bad thing!). As I said before, I'm still evaluating, but have not yet come across any more points to add to the "negative" side of the equation.

If anyone else has used this software, I'd love to compare notes ...

The only other negative I can think of concerns the end user. Years ago many ot the Admins used Org Plus to create the various business units Org Charts - it was Greek to many others who didn't have the Org Plus license - including Quality when trying to prepare for Internal Audits. Make sure the customer and end user have read only rights without incurring expense. I'm still using Visio. My two cents:thanx:

I broke down and bought MS Visio 2007 for my LSS project. It works great and is simple to use. Tried sample download of SmartDraw and I didn't care for some of the functions. Unfortunately I bought Visio with my own money and the agency (US Army) I work for wanted me to save them millions of dollars but could not spare a couple hundred bucks for Visio.

I broke down and bought MS Visio 2007 for my LSS project. It works great and is simple to use. Tried sample download of SmartDraw and I didn't care for some of the functions. Unfortunately I bought Visio with my own money and the agency (US Army) I work for wanted me to save them millions of dollars but could not spare a couple hundred bucks for Visio.I'm amazed a US government agency would allow any employee or contractor who hooked into their network to have ANY "rogue" software on laptop or desktop - very bad breach of security. (rogue meaning anything not checked and approved by the agency.)

Sorry Wes, I misled you about loading a "rogue" software onto a Gov't computer/network. I loaded it onto my personal home laptop to work on a gov't project and the material is not FOUO or classified.

No, we can't load any software without approval and if we tried, we get an error message saying we don't have admin priveledges to load software unless approved by our Garrison's IT directorate.

Aloha

Sorry Wes, I misled you about loading a "rogue" software onto a Gov't computer/network. I loaded it onto my personal home laptop to work on a gov't project and the material is not FOUO or classified.

No, we can't load any software without approval and if we tried, we get an error message saying we don't have admin priveledges to load software unless approved by our Garrison's IT directorate.

Aloha

I'm even surprised they allowed you to load files created with unknown (to them) software on the network.

Continuing on the old theme on this post, I am looking to create process maps that have some sort of information associated with each of its components. Specifically, I am trying to create components in Process Maps that you can attach documents and controls to. So if you were to click on a component of a process, it would pop up information like what kind of controls are applicable for that component?

Ideally, I'd like to be able to do this with Visio 2007 - if not then another piece of software is fine too. Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Try TeamFlow (http://www.teamflow.com).

John, can you give us a little more info on why you recommend this? It's always helpful to have something more than just a link. Have you used this? Can you compare to other software?

As independent management systems consultants we have to be free to recommend the best process management software we can find.

Since 1988 we have found nothing to beat TeamFlow.

Our clients use TeamFlow to analyze their systems and identify their key processes. They then use TF to analyze their key processes and result in deployment (swimlane) flowcharts as documented procedures. These XML documents are hyperlinked to each other and the work instructions (as necessary for additional control) and to forms or databases to collect data.

Visio is a drawing package that sloooooows collaborative process analysis with the process expert(s). Using TeamFlow and a projector the process analysis session rarely takes longer than two hours with a well prepared process expert.

TeamFlow is designed by CFM who were the first in my knowledge to adopt the published recommendations of Dr Deming. Behind the 4 color flowcharts it creates little Oracle databases.

If anyone knows of better process management software (@ $300 per seat) then we would like to hear about it here so we can share it with our clients.

Although I am restricted in uploading SW this does sound like a very good package - I'll suggest to my management for use in the Quality group. :thanx:

TeamFlow is designed by CFM who were the first in my knowledge to adopt the published recommendations of Dr Deming.

John,

I am a "Demingite." Can you provide me with a reference to Dr. Deming's teachings and/or writings where he mentions or recommends the use of "Deployment Flowcharts?"

All I know is that is was Dr. Myron Tribus who popularized the use of these charts.

Thanks in advance.

Stijloor.

Sure Myron Tribus made deployment flowcharting popular in the USA but I was referring to one of Dr Deming's books. I remember seeing a swimlane flowchart on page 28 or so of either Out of the Crisis or The New Economics.

Your post prompted me to email my friend to whom I had lent part of my business book library. I will update this post when he either returns the two books or gives me the exact page number and book title.

Meanwhile here is a fair-use quote from the Jan 98 edition of Quality Digest (Google this to avoid copyright infringement with a link here) where Ron Cordes (who runs CFM the owner of TeamFlow) reported on the history of process flowcharting:

"Deming's work at Komatsu Tractor Co. inspired a new flowchart that depicted team members across the top, with each process step aligned vertically under the team member or members working on it. Process steps were connected by arrows, as in ordinary flowcharts, to indicate process flow. The Japanese term for this concept, which roughly translates into "management across the functions" was Anglicized into "cross-functional management.""

Do you have access to any records of Dr Deming's work with Komatsu?

As independent management systems consultants we have to be free to recommend the best process management software we can find.

Since 1988 we have found nothing to beat TeamFlow. It was pointed out to me that there is a possible Quid_pro_quo as the TeamFlow company uses a chart on their web site as an example and attribute it to your company with your company information. Readers here pointed out the connection to me and I do want to ensure relationships are clear to readers here as is required in the TOS.

Personally I have never used TeamFlow so I can not give an objective evaluation myself. I have used SmartDraw (my favourite), Visio, Micrografx Flowcharter, Winflow, ConceptDraw, and several others, not to mention oldies for the Mac platform like MacFlow (we're talking the 1980's here), TopDown, and the newer Flowchart Maker. I have even seen smaller companies use Microsoft's Powerpoint and Word to do excellent flow charts. Neither is appropriate for flow charts, in my opinion (well, one can do quite a lot with Powerpoint), but that's where a company has to make a choice as to whether or not its worth it to buy flow charting software. For years I have recommended SmartDraw (for PC companies) and I still do. Of course with the Macs running Windows (I use Parallels) these days, buying Windows software isn't an issue for most Mac people.

Visio is a drawing package that sloooooows collaborative process analysis with the process expert(s). Using TeamFlow and a projector the process analysis session rarely takes longer than two hours with a well prepared process expert. As devils advocate, having used flow charts for about as long as you, and in large companies including Harley-Davidson, BorgWarner and Motorola (to name a few) way back in the 1990's, a blanket statement referencing time (especially 2 hours) isn't a 'real' picture. The time it takes depends upon the process complexity, the level of knowledge of the process by participants, and the number of people involved (3 significant factors of several). Having a 'process expert' can help, particularly with training, but that isn't always feasible (typically a cost issue). My opinion is doing process flow charts isn't rocket science. It has always been more of an issue of teaching someone the concepts of flow charting to begin with than a specific software package in the same sense that an APQP software package that does integrated, linked process flow charts, process FMEAs and control plans isn't going to help a person do anything if they don't know anything about the APQP process and how to do each of the documents without software.

TeamFlow is designed by CFM who were the first in my knowledge to adopt the published recommendations of Dr Deming. Behind the 4 color flowcharts it creates little Oracle databases. As was noted by someone in another post, I'm not sure how Dr. Deming's teachings and philosophy comes into play in this. Feel free to explain the connection. I'm not sure how seeing a swimlane flowchart on page 28 or so of either Out of the Crisis or The New Economics relates to the flow chart software company other than that the company makes flow charting software and Dr. Deming used a type of flow chart, other than that the company may internally embrace Dr. Deming's concepts and philosophies.

As to the software using Oracle databases, I'm not sure this is a significant aspect to the typical user whose interest is usually in the front end interface.

This thread is over 100 pages in length, so I won't go on. I feel obligated to post this because, as I mentioned, the connection was pointed out to me by people here.

Do you have access to any records of Dr Deming's work with Komatsu?

I can not say out of the top of my head. It would be interesting to find out. I will certainly do some research.

Stijloor.

Although I am restricted in uploading SW this does sound like a very good package - I'll suggest to my management for use in the Quality group. :thanx:

I recommend that you obtain the free download and try it for up to 30 days before you buy it so you can make sure that TF is exactly right for you.

Sure Myron Tribus made deployment flowcharting popular in the USA but I was referring to one of Dr Deming's books. I remember seeing a swimlane flowchart on page 28 or so of either Out of the Crisis or The New Economics.

Your post prompted me to email my friend to whom I had lent part of my business book library. I will update this post when he either returns the two books or gives me the exact page number and book title.

Meanwhile here is a fair-use quote from the Jan 98 edition of Quality Digest (Google this to avoid copyright infringement with a link here) where Ron Cordes (who runs CFM the owner of TeamFlow) reported on the history of process flowcharting:

"Deming's work at Komatsu Tractor Co. inspired a new flowchart that depicted team members across the top, with each process step aligned vertically under the team member or members working on it. Process steps were connected by arrows, as in ordinary flowcharts, to indicate process flow. The Japanese term for this concept, which roughly translates into "management across the functions" was Anglicized into "cross-functional management.""

Do you have access to any records of Dr Deming's work with Komatsu?

John,

Here are the results of my quick "research" on deployment flow charts supposedly attributed to Dr. Deming.

In his book: "Out of the Crisis", Dr. Deming makes 2 references to flow diagrams: Page 4 and Page 87.
No mention of "Deployment Flow Charts."
On Page 86, Dr. Deming graciously thanks Dr. Phyllis Sobo for her help on "Plan for Action."

In his book: "The New Economics for Industry, Government, Education - 2nd Edition", Page 21, Fig #4, Dr. Deming shows a chart.
Its caption reads: "This is figure #3 redrawn by Dr. Myron Tribus as a deployment flowchart."

So to attribute the great Teacher for the development of Deployment Flowcharts is incorrect.

I hope this clarifies.

Stijloor.

OK - I think the recent discussions in posts in this thread have reached critical mass. Everything is clarified, the Deming 'association' not withstanding, but that's WAY off topic anyway.

OK - I think the recent discussions in posts in this thread have reached critical mass. Everything is clarified, the Deming 'association' not withstanding, but that's WAY off topic anyway.

Marc,

Deming? That's a point that I raised. I believe that one is clarified as well.

Stijloor.

Let us now get back on topic. This is a very old thread which was started in 2001 which gets resurrected now and again. Further posts, other than any responses John may have per decorum considering the recent posts, should get back to the original post topic: What Flowchart Software Do You Use for Procedures and other Documentation?

Let us now get back on topic. This is a very old thread which was started in 2001 which gets resurrected now and again. Further posts, other than any responses John may have per decorum considering the recent posts, should get back to the original post topic: What Flowchart Software Do You Use for Procedures and other Documentation?

Marc,

Point well taken. Agreed. :agree1:

Stijloor.

FWIW:
I recall a time when ALL flow charts (definitely they were in existence and used LONG before my time) were hand drawn using stencils and straight edges to make them look pretty.

Bottom line, "somebody" had to know what steps were involved in the process before it could be transferred to paper (and then sometimes to a projection slide.)

Back in college in the late 50's and early 60's, I recall we had one guy in my fraternity would would convert our hideous sketches into beautiful works of art for presentation to the professor in chemistry or physics or even social sciences when we turned in reports. I used him once to show a chemical manufacturing process for a paper I wrote in organic chemistry. My professor wrote on the corner of the chart: "Fred Hoffman does beautiful work!" referring to our fraternity draftsman, whose work he recognized. "You should give him credit for his illustrations in the introduction or afterword of your paper!"

My take on software today is that it is pretty much similar to when I had Fred redraw my sketches into something eye-catching. The idea and steps were mine, I chose to pay Fred for artistry, but there were others who did almost as good a job. None did the thinking for the students who paid them.

I don't know how often you folks reading this thread have to make flow charts, but my suggestion is to consider finding your own "Fred" to use his software to convert YOUR sketch into a pretty flow chart which can incorporate bells & whistles like links and popups into the flowchart using fancy software instead of spending a week or two trying to learn new software for one or two flow charts.

If, on the other hand, your job is to be "Fred," well, then, get the best you can afford!

Visio is a common tool for flowchart. However if the company realy want to save cost, then the MS Office tool can be your alternative.

Visio is a common tool for flowchart. However if the company realy want to save cost, then the MS Office tool can be your alternative.
The cost of the software is miniscule compared with the cost of using the software and the cost of maintaining the documents as the process or organization changes.

Therefore I suggest selection of software that is easy and fast to use, quick to read and understand and results in documents that can easily and quickly be updated.

On this basis we use TeamFlow.

What you really have to take into account is how big the company is and their needs. A small company can use Powerpoint if they have the office suite.