Answer honestly, Does your company use or reference level IV documents in their Quality plan?

Looking for explanation as to why if you you do!!!!

Most of the systems I've set up reference forms in the level 2 or 3. I usually correlate the form number to the procedure or work instruction. I think it just makes life easier - after all with control meaning to prevent unintended use - how can you not control them? Some Level 4's have the instructions right on the document.

Hey Al,

I once referenced Level 4 in my Document Pyramid as Records. However, I took it out shortly there after since it seemed only to confuse the matter. Now, I basically reference the Quality Program as a three tier pyramid with the records a detached fourth section.

I don't know that it matters how many levels one creates. However, the one level serves all, or the unstructured Quality Program appears to me to be the most confusing approach. We had a discussion along these lines a few years back, so by doing a search you might find some interesting information. In those days, I was not big on the unstructured, one-level serves all back then based on a consulting job I took on. However, Marc commented back then that in his opinion, he saw no way in getting around having the hybrid of both the structured and unstructured programs. I think he is right on this point and have recognized that within the systems/programs I have set up, I had both represented.

Regards,

Kevin

Al, do you mean are level 4 documents mentioned in the quality manual? Or do you really mean quality plan? The reason I ask is because we have quality plans (project quality plans to be specific) and I don't understand if you mean those.

If you mean in general, do we mention level 4 documents...In the QM I've outlined our documentation as 5 levels : 1)Quality Manual, 2) System level procedures and work instructions, 3)Department and Regional level procedures and work instructions, 4) project specific procedures and 5)manuals and quality plans.

I have forms, templates. labels, and records as separate from the hierarchy - just listed as additional documentation bullet points.

Within our quality plans, we really only mention the applicable procedures for the project (usually the operations manual plus any project specific procedures).

Forms are referenced as a level 4 document in QS9000, if you are interested.

In this high tech age will we see the end of this necessary structure to documents that dont mean anything to anyone. If I were an operator I would like a single point of contact to the information I want. Couldnt QMS text be in a searchable database that provides a set of results to a keyword, such as provided by Yahoo and other internet search engines.

Lucinda,

I was meaning the typical document structrure as outlined in QS,TS,ISO, etc... that calls out four levels of documentation.

I was not lookink far enough down into individual quality (improvement) projects/plans.

From my experience there seems to be a generalized structure as follows:

Level I: Quality Policy Manual
Level II: Procedures
Level III: Forms, templates, instructions,documents
Level IV: ??????????????????????????.

I was looking for input on why people denote level IV documents for a future cove project.

I'll post futher personal views when an if applicable, just on a fishing trip right now!

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To all so far, thanks for the input and keep it up?
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Are Level IV documents required? (just a teaser):bigwave:

We have a four tier system
Quality Manual
System Procedures
Work Instructions
Records/objective Evidence

GP,

Where would, sayyyyyy, your corrective action or preventive action form fit in the structure?

No right or wrong, just interested.:)

If you don't use or reference forms and records in your QMS what do you do for objective evidence?

(AL - you did use the term Quality Plan!)

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Lucinda,
I was meaning the typical document structrure as outlined in QS,TS,ISO, etc... that calls out four levels of documentation.

Don't think so...Don't know about QS, TS, but I could find nothing in the standard that references a document pyramid such as 4 levels. I'll do a search later but this issue has a thread some where. We will use Level 4, for forms and records. 3 will be work instuctions. Quality Plan will be 2, manual will be 1.:ko: :smokin:

Energy - QS9000 does define four levels of documentation in the QMS, level 4 including forms.

OK,

Let's start here folks: (this is my first pole experience)

QS/TS/ISO, doesn't matter,

I'm just looking at document level structures, which are not requirered as far as I know. (Yes I Use Them)

Let's not read too much into this topic at this time.

David,

I did use the term Quality Plan which was a way to try to be as inclusive as possible, did I ever say in this topic that I didn't use the term?

:bonk: :bonk:

Originally posted by M Greenaway
Energy - QS9000 does define four levels of documentation in the QMS, level 4 including forms.

M.

Not having QS, I wouldn't have that info. But, that's more than I got than the first go around on this topic. So, which came first? ISO or QS? My original focus was on ISO and the origin of the Levels of documentation. Thanks for the revelation. :bigwave: :smokin:

Procedure Numbering Change? Still the need for maintaining Level 1, 2, 3, documents? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2536)

I don't know how to transfer a previous thread, but the address above should take you to a detailed discussion on Document Tiers, with Marc weighing in. :smokin:

ISO9000 (BS5750) came well before QS9000. QS9000 uses the ISO9001:1994 standard as its base. I was just pointing out that QS does define a structure - personally I think it is cr@p.

Another one

Can anybody tell me where the Documentation Pyramid originated? (http://Elsmar.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000125.html)

I see you have all been busy while I was away :) it will take some time for me to get through the postings of the last 3 weeks!

Al - Yes, we use all 4 levels:

Level I - Quality Manual Corporate guideline for the Quality (a.k.a. Business System)
Level II - Quality Control Procedures Define and control responsibilities, methods, and sequence of operations necessary to meet requirements of ISO 9001, the Quality Manual, and any other requirements specified by customers or public law.
Level III - Work Instrucitons and Engineering Documents define the detailed steps involved in the various hands-on tasks required to perform processes necessary
Level IV - Records provide ovjective evidence necessary to demonstrate achievement of required product quality and effective operation of the quality/business system.

Al, in tier 4