Subject: FYI: USA Standards Group Meeting /Arter
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:08:52 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion <jennejohnn@UWSTOUT.EDU>

From: Dennis Arter Arter@Quality.Org

Report on US TAG Standards Group Meetings

The US Standards Group on Quality, Environment, Dependability and Statistics (QEDS) met in Crystal City, Virginia, the week of November 15, 1999. While many issues were discussed and work was conducted by all working groups, there were several issues surrounding the Draft International Standard (DIS) of ISO 9000:2000 series that bear reporting.

(The pre-publication editions of the DISs (available for translation) were provided to the members of Task Group (TG) 18 for their use in starting the development of a US position. These copies were retrieved after the meeting.)

The issues of concern to the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG), which formulates the US position on documents developed within ISO Technical Committee (TC) 176, are as follows:

A. Non-conformance

Although the requirements for non-conforming products (clause 4.13 in the 1994 edition) had remained virtually unchanged in the new version through the second committee draft (CD 2), the pre- publication version of the DIS being worked on by the International Organization of Standardization (ISO) now has some changes. These changes were apparently made to make the document easier to use in the service sector. This raises issues with manufacturing oriented people since some of the older requirements have been dropped and there are now no directions for the disposition of non-conforming products.

B. Documented procedures

Throughout the DIS, there has been a significant and intentional reduction in the number of places which have specific requirements for documented procedures within the clauses. Although there is some general discussion in Section 4, some participants indicated that the DIS may go too far in eliminating requirements for procedures.

C. Document vs. Record

There are lingering questions concerning the use of documentation terms. In specific, the definitions of "record" and "document" needs to be clarified. This is not considered a significant concern.

ISO 19011, the integrated standard for internal auditing of quality and environmental management systems, is planned for release as a DIS in the September-October 2000 time frame to correspond with the release of ISO 9001:2000 as an FDIS. This will be one of the four core documents contained in the ISO 9000 family. This is down from dozens of documents to ISO 9000, ISO 9001, ISO 9004 and ISO 19011. There is also one international document that is frequently included with these four documents: ISO 10012 on measuring equipment.

Dennis R. Arter

Does anybody know this standard? My chief asked me yesterday, if I heard something about this new standard about auditing and auditor qualification. The standard could also call ISO 1911. I found nothing by the aiag.org site and by the German VDA.de site.
Any other idea?

Thank you for your help

I believe there is some information on the www.ISO.ch (http://www.ISO.ch) site (ISO organization website). I haven't looked for this standard recently, but you may be able to order it from ASQ or BSI.

ISO 19011-1:1990 Guidelines for auditing quality systems.
Exists since 1990 and has 3 parts.
It is refered to in the bibliography of TS 16949

Howard - I didn't see it in the TS16949 bibliography. Anyway, when I looked at the ASQ bookstore, it's presently in the DIS. I don't know the timeline for the DIS going to FDIS. Anyone else know?

sorry I made a mistake I refered to 10011.

My boss told me yesterday that ISO 19011 will be a new standard for auditing in which both quality and environmental aspects are considered. The standard is going to come next year.

See: http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2332

Is ISO19011 out yet ?

Anyone seen it, or the drafts ?

Anything new ?

ISO/DIS 19011:2002 available at www.standards.co.nz/drafts

Hmmmm

No changes there then !

19011 is still a DIS it has not yet been released. It should be released within 6 months.

Originally posted by KenS
ISO/DIS 19011:2002 available at www.standards.co.nz/drafts

Ken, I couldn't find the document (even after performing a search) from the site you provided.

UPDATE:
:eek: :bonk: My Error! I was looking for 19011.
Thanks Ken!

Sorry about that, document number is DR01242

From: http://www.irca.org/watch1.html

Updated: 5 March, 2002

ISO 19011 progresses to Final Draft International Standard (FDIS) stage

At the recent meeting in Vancouver, delegates to the Joint Working Group voted to progress the draft to the FDIS stage. Prior to the meeting, the USA had advertised widely its opposition to inclusion within the DIS of some elements relating to auditor qualifications, but in the event their position was not supported and the JWG recommended that ISO progress the draft to FDIS with no substantive changes.

Our information is that the expected issue date is now October or November, 2002.

ISO 19011; A new standard for auditors:

All auditors need to be aware of the development of ISO 19011, the new standard that combines into one document the auditing guidelines for quality management systems (ISO 10011) and environmental management systems (ISO 14010, 11 & 12). The standard is intended as guidance to all auditors including those who audit internally within their own organisation.

The effect of this new standard

The certification criteria against which IRCA evaluates all auditors are based on the internationally recognised auditing guidelines. Any significant change in the auditing standard will therefore require a similar change in the certification criteria.

It is very likely that the new standard will include some significant changes. The IRCA criteria will be amended to incorporate any such changes. These changes may be reflected both at the initial certification stage and at the three-yearly renewal.

IRCA is monitoring very closely the progress in development and will provide information in a Q&A format when the nature of the changes becomes clearer, at around the time of issue of the Final Draft International Standard (FDIS).

Click here to read a recent article (http://www.irca.org/19011.pdf) on the development of ISO 19011 by Dick Hortensius, who serves as Secretary of the JWG responsible for the development of the standard. The article is reproduced by kind permission of the journal, ISO Management Systems.

Timetable for Development & Issue:

November 1999 Committee Draft 1 (CD1) released for comment
April 2000 CD2 circulated for ballot
November 2000 CD 3 circulated for ballot
June 2001 Draft International Standard (DIS) released for comment
January 2002 JWG votes to progress DIS to Final Draft International Standard (FDIS)
October/November 2002 ISO 19011:2002 scheduled for issue

Auditors who are interested in knowing more about this new standard are advised to contact their National Standards Body or the International Organization for Standardisation.

The vote on the FDIS was held June 13 - Aug 13. Has anybody heard how it went? I'm already starting to teach about it in Lead & Internal Auditor courses.

:vfunny: Here is a Spanish version of the ISO/FDIS 19011.
Enjoy it!

Hi Randy,

Since you are teaching auditing techniques accordance to ISO 19011.

Hope that you could give some insight over this:

In 7.2.2 Generic knowledge and skills of audit team leaders, it stated that audit team leader should lead the audit team to reach audit conclusion;

May I know what are the way to achieve this and how to do this?

It puzzle me as I don't have an idea to go through the process, my understanding will be I will need the audit team to fully understand the objectives of the audit plan before they would know how to proceed from there, will this be the way?

Please help out on this.

Thanks a lot in advance.