O.K. people,

Weve had our views, let's take a vote and I will vote first. If there are any other choices deemed applicable please respond and I will make the needed adjustments.

Al,

Isn't the first (common sense is learned) and last (common sense is an outcome of life's experience) pretty much the same....I guess as a graduate from the School of Hard Knocks, I found it hard to decide which to vote for. But, I know one thing, very few, if any of us are born with it. Some of us just catch on quicker.

Originally posted by SteelMaiden
Al,
But, I know one thing, very few, if any of us are born with it. Some of us just catch on quicker.

Steel, I agree very few of us are born with it, worse yet is very few learn it through life experiences. Maybe it is where I live, but very few people in this area have enough sense to come in out of the rain. Maybe it is the cold weather we have freezing their brains, I don't know but to be honest it scares me!

Cmon ISO Guy - if we came out of the rain, we'd be inside most of the time!

Its possible the folks with common sense have gotten the H out!

Altho I try and hang with people with common sense, so I can't agree, necessarily. I don't dwell on those types - because I'd probably get frustrated like you. Ignore them, they'll go away.

Originally posted by Laura M
Ignore them, they'll go away.

They'll go away all right, they'll do something stupid and die because of it...what a waste!

Steelmaiden

They'll go away all right, they'll do something stupid and die because of it...what a waste!



Has anyone else seen this website.


http://www.darwinawards.com/

If common sense were inherent we would all have it?:bonk:

This is a tough one.

If it's learned, more people need to buy the book...

If it's taught, who's the teacher...

If it's inherent, we'd all probably have the same mother and father...

If it's the outcome of a life experience, we'd all be too old to know if we have it...

I think it's a gift...much like a sixth sense.

I could have sworn that Mark Twain once said that "the problem with common sense is that it isn't" (common, that is) but a search through on-line quotation sites turns up empty (even the Mark Twain site).

Ken,

I think I must agree.....it is a gift.

James,

That site is one of the best on the net. I first saw it a few years ago, though I haven't looked at it lately...it is classic!

CarolX

I think I look at like allergies. Some can die of a bee sting, I get something equivalent to a mosquito bite. Some learn common sense from life experieces and some of us still ride motorcycles!
:D

Whether a person has any common sense is usually judged by others! (Don't be stupid, use your common sense..)
Does that mean common sense is accepting the 'common' opinion of the majority?

Or is it the ability to quickly decide the most appropriate and logical action to take under given circumstances?

IMO, it is result of experience, learning, wisdom and judgement and not a matter of intuition, impulse or hunch. Can you use common sense if you don't know the subject in the first place?

Keen contest between 'Inherent' and 'Experience'. Interesting.

THis one's interesting reading too:
http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/longview/ctac/psychology/commonsense1.htm

The poll is meaningless because the expression "common sense" is meaningless. When we say someone is using common sense, we are just saying that the person did what we would have done in the same situation. That doesn't make it necessarily a "sensible" act.

Common sense says that the world is flat.

Common sense says that quantum mechanics is nonsense.

Common sense says that the better team will always win, so there is no sense trying.

Common sense says that the way we are doing things now is the right way or we wouldn't be doing it this way. Therefore improvement is not possible.

Originally posted by John Finn
The poll is meaningless because the expression "common sense" is meaningless.

Who started this meanlingness poll. Don't you have a shred of common sense? Get a grip John:p :ko: :smokin:

John common sense would tell you not to be a Red Sox Fan. LOL Just kidding!:vfunny:

Originally posted by Atul Khandekar
Keen contest between 'Inherent' and 'Experience'. Interesting.
Atul,

Even looking for trick questions I didn't do too good. About 50% on the test. What was even more interesting were the other links. Personally, I have always thought that people say "He/she doesn't have or use common sense" when that person's actions don't agree with theirs. Great post.:ko: :smokin:

Most polls are meaningless, but they do provide a good starting point for discussion!:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Most polls are meaningless, but they do provide a good starting point for discussion!:rolleyes:My, my, Al. We're in a pessimistic mood today, aren't we...

Excellent link. I would add that they contain examples of despicable acts of greed and dishonesty. It sickens me. My recommendation? Don't go there before you've had your morning coffee. It will ruin your entire day!:( :ko: :smokin:

A passage from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

John Galt:


..."Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given to him, sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, content is not. To remain alive, he must act, and before he can act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot obtain his food without a knowledge of food and of the way to obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch---or build a cyclotron---without a knowledge of his aim and of the means to achieve it. To remain alive, he must think.

"But to think is an act of choice. The key to what you so recklessly call 'human nature,' the open secret you live with, yet dread to name, is the fact that man is a being of volitional consciousness. Reason does not work automatically; thinking is not a mechanical process; the connections of logic are not made by instinct. The function of your stomach, lungs, or heart is automatic; the function of your mind is not. In any hour and issue of your life, you are free to think or to evade that effort. But you are not free to escape from your nature, from the fact that reason is your means of survival---so that for you, who are a human being, the question 'to be or not to be' is the question 'to think or not to think'....

Seems like Mr. Galt has/had his sh-t together. Where do you think he came up with these observations? From his own head, for sure. Maybe a case of looking at his own behavior. Or possibly watching those around him and, still liking them, find a way to explain their despicable actions? Actions, that we were raised to think were an abomination if you were an honorable and decent person. When you look around you today, his explanation of human behavior is right on. Crime and dishonesty are a choice of the individual's thought processes. Somehow having it explained to me so eloquently, doesn't make me feel any better about it. Contrary to popular belief, we are not created equal. Today, the road to success is decorated with signs reminding those who are honed to believe it, "Hooray for me, and ---- everybody else. The world is my door mat." :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

Last one about inherent common sense, I promise!

"A plant must feed itself in order to live; the sunlight, the water, the chemicals it needs are the values its nature has set it to pursue; its life is the standard of value directing its actions. Bur a plant has no choice of action; there are alternatives in the conditions it encounters, but there is no alternative in its function: it acts automatically to further its life, it cannot act for its own destruction.

"An animal is equipped for sustaining its life; its senses provide it with an automatic code of action, an automatic knowledge of what is good for it or evil. It has no power to extend its knowledge or to evade it. In conditions where its knowledge proves inadequate, it dies. But so long as it lives, it acts on its knowledge, with automatic safety and no power of choice, it is unable to ignore its own good, unable to decide to choose the evil and act as its own destroyer.

"Man has no automatic code of survival. His particular distinction from all other living species is the necessity to act in the face of alternatives by means of volitional choice. He has no automatic knowledge of what is good for him or evil, what values his life depends on, what course of action it requires. Are you prattling about an instinct of self-preservation? An instinct of self- preservation is precisely what man does not possess. An "instinct" is an unerring and automatic form of knowledge. A desire is not an instinct. A desire to live does not give you the knowledge required for living. And even man's desire to live is not automatic: your secret evil today is that that is the desire you do not hold. Your fear of death is not a love for life and will not hive you the knowledge needed to keep it. Man must obtain his knowledge and choose his actions by a process of thinking, which nature will not force him to perform. Man has the power to act as his own destroyer---and that is the way he has acted through most of his history.

Common Sense to me is the combination of experience and theory. For this, I agree with the SteelMaiden and I tossed a coin between ‘learned’ and ‘experienced’ in order to vote (heads, learned).

IMO, we are not born with Common Sense. KenK’s comment that we would all have to be born from the same parents rings true to me. Common Sense is something we all believe to be true. What is true of this culture is not true in another. Since this is the case, the evidence suggests that it is not inherent. What is inherent is our ability to rationalize. We are born with the ability to learn.

Instinctive behavior is largely shaped by physiological needs (Maslow). Al’s last post is pretty good at explaining all that. To added to Al’s post, I offer this:

information>knowledge>know-how>wisdom>character (borrowed from Myron Tribus)

Where does common sense fit in? Skullsike offered that it might be inherent wisdom. I would offer that we drop the inherent descriptor. Wisdom is the knowledge and know-how to do something several different ways. Wisdom allows us to pick the best means to an end. However, we must rely on character to make good judgment to be good and decent.

Just some thoughts,

Kevin

Paraphrased from a quote mentioned (source unknown) during CBC coverage of the US-Canada Ice Hockey Gold Medal match last month.

"Wisdom is that which enables us to avoid getting in the situation where we would need it"

I think everyone has agreed that "common sense" is learned. And that your surroundings and culture will influence what you learn.

I submit that common sense is what we generally consider to be those things that the average person will learn despite obvious differences in upbringing or culture. Common sense consists of the common things that we should be able to reasonably expect all people to know.

Do you think perhaps that there are two different issues involved in the idea of "common sense"?

There's the case where "logic" and "common sense" lead almost all of us to the wrong answer - the logic fallacy.

There's also the case where we use the expression "He has no common sense" as a polite way of saying "He's stupid".

"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education".

Helvetius

O.K. Folks,

Last part of Galt's speech:

John Galt's Speech --- Part Three
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A living entity that regarded its means of survival as evil, would not survive. A plant that struggled to mangle its roots, a bird that fought to break its wings would not remain for long in the existence they affronted. But the history of man has been a struggle to deny and to destroy his mind.

"Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice--and the alternative his nature offers him is; rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man--by choice; he has to hold his life as a value--by choice; he has to learn to sustain it--by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues--by choice.

"A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.

"Whoever you are, you who are hearing me now, I am speaking to whatever living remnant is left uncorrupted within you, to the remnant of the human, to your mind, and I say: There is a morality of reason, a morality proper to man, and Man's Life is its standard of value.

"All that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; all that which destroys it is the evil.

"Man's life, as required by his nature, is not the life of a mindless brute, of a looting thug or a mooching mystic, but the life of a thinking being--not life by means of force or fraud, but life by means of achievement--not survival at any price, since there's only one price that pays for man's survival: reason.

"Man's life is the standard of morality, but your own life is its purpose. If existence on earth is your goal, you must choose your actions and values by the standard of that which is proper to man--for the purpose of preserving, fulfilling and enjoying the irreplaceable value which is your life.

"Since life requires a specific course of action, any other course will destroy it. A being who does not hold his own life as the motive and goal of his actions, is acting on the motive and standard of death. Such a being is a metaphysical monstrosity, struggling to oppose, negate and contradict the fact of his own existence, running blindly amuck on a trail of destruction, capable of nothing but pain.

"Happiness is the successful state of life, pain is an agent of death. Happiness is that state of conciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values. A morality that dares to tell you to find happiness in the renunciation of your happiness-to value the failure of your values-is an insolent negation of morality. A doctrine that gives you, as an ideal, the role of a sacrificial animal seeking slaughter on the altars of others, is giving you death as your standard. By the grace of reality and the nature of life, man--every man--is an end in himself, he exists for his own sake, and the achievement of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose.

"But neither life nor happiness can be achieved by the pursuit of irrational whims. Just as man is free to attempt to survive in any random manner, but will perish unless he lives as his nature requires, so he is free to seek his happiness in any mindless fraud, but the torture of frustration is all he will find, unless he seeks the happiness proper to man. The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live.

"Sweep aside those parasites of subsidized classrooms, who live on the profits of the mind of others and proclaim that man needs no morality, no values, no code of behavior. They, who pose as scientists and claim that man is only an animal, do not grant him inclusion in the law of existence that every living species has a way of survival demanded by its nature, they do not claim that a fish can live out of water or that a dog can live without its sense of smell--but man, they claim, the most complex of beings, man can survive in any way whatever, man has no identity, no nature, and there's no practical reason why he cannot live with his means of survival destroyed, with his mind throttled and placed at the disposal of any orders they might care to issue.

"Sweep aside those hatred-eaten mystics, who pose as friends of humanity and preach that the highest virtue man can practice is to hold his own life as of no value. Do they tell you that the purpose of morality is to curb man's instinct of self-preservation? It is for the purpose of self-preservation that man needs a code of morality. The only man who desires to be moral desires to live. "No, you do not have to live; it is your basic act of choice; but if you choose to live' you must live as a man--by the work and the judgement of your mind.

"No, you do not have to live as a man; it is an act of moral choice. But you cannot live as anything else--and the alternative is that state of living death which you now see within you and around you, the state of a thing unfit for existence, no longer human and less then animal, a thing that knows nothing but pain and drags itself through its span of years in the agony of unthinking self-destruction.

"No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existence and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil.

"No you do not have to be a man; but today those who are, are not there any longer. I have removed your means of survival your---victims.

"If you wish to know how I have done it and what I told them to make them quit, you are hearing it now. I told them, in essence, the statement I am making tonight. They were men who had lived by my code, but had not known how great a virtue it represented. I made them see it. I brought them, not a re-evaluation, but only an identification of their values."

Originally posted by Al Dyer
O.K. Folks,

Last part of Galt's speech:

John Galt's Speech --- Part Three
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, you do not have to live as a man; it is an act of moral choice. But you cannot live as anything else--and the alternative is that state of living death which you now see within you and around you, the state of a thing unfit for existence, no longer human and less then animal, a thing that knows nothing but pain and drags itself through its span of years in the agony of unthinking self-destruction.


Yea right! The pain of sitting on your expensive yacht in the Mediterranean, paid for with the sweat and tears of moral men. Knowing nothing but pain when the ice machine malfunctions or your Caviar got warm. Dragging your less than human state around to fashionable parties, socializing with all those other less than animal beings. As you look over your portfolio, fattened by less than moral business dealings and other dishonest practices, your state of living death almost blinds you to fact that you just made another 5 million closing up a plant and putting all the moral people out in the street.

For a minute there I thought I was going to see a pop up window asking me to enter my credit card number.

Nice guys finish last!:rolleyes: :ko: :smokin:

I always thought that ignorance was the starting point. From there we chose to move to either intelligence or stupidity. In either case it was a choice. Perhaps we chose to move, or we chose not to. Not to move meant that we could not keep up with the passing world, and we drifted to stupidity.
Don’t ask me what that means. I’ve been drifting far too long!

The whole point is that humans have no inheret knowledge, or other mammels.

Who gets eaten first, the tadpole that swims around ?

Do guppies teach their children, and how do they keep the males away?

If a baby were born would he/she be able to survive without the mother???

:bonk:

Al,
Would that mean common sense results from life experience -- may be even learning?

Ayn Rand also says that "The genius must have his freedom and his independence" - does it mean s/he may not have common sense?

And Galt says it is irrational to sacrifice the self for the good of others - do you think this is common sense - or does it depend on the philosophy one chooses to follow?

:confused:

teaching can cause the incorrect learning that is rampant in todays schools in the United States.

Could a baby live by itself without the mother? No

Could a lion baby live without it's mother??

No, they are taught to a certain extent by their parents.

C'mon people, can a human baby live on it's own without guidance???????????????????

Here is a read that you all might want to check out. Go to page 4 and read about "Common Concepts"

Regards,

Kevin

I don't consider those to be examples of common sense. They are more like skills.

I think that common sense is primarily rooted in survival - physical, emotional, or social. It's knowing what to do, or not to do, in a situation. When someone does something that violates the "self safety" rules, we shake our heads and say they lack common sense. When someone shows up dressed inappropriately or says something outrageous (in the context of the gathering), we shake our heads and say they lack common sense. or to put it more exactly , we may say they "lack the common sense they were born with! "

Survival mode should be built into all people regardless of their upbringing. That's what makes it common. If it were instilled by education, training, or anything else, then we couldn't call it common now could we? It would be "educationally learned sense", or "lawyer sense", or "desk clerk sense".......

Lucinda,
I disagree that Skullsike's are more like skills. I would class them more as talent. An inate ability to grasp certain consepts. The Profs are able to deal with the etherial (sp?) more easily than the practical. The 6th grade educated grandfather deals with the practical.

James:bigwave:

Originally posted by JRKH
Lucinda,
I disagree that Skullsike's are more like skills
James:bigwave:

Me too. If twenty undergrads feel it's ok to take a freshman into their Sorority by first making them drop trousers and accept a paddling with on oversized breadboard, they collectively have agreed to the process. Anybody who disagrees with this doesn't have a lick of common sense, in their eyes. The recipent of the tenderizing process has a choice. He/she? has developed the common sense to perpetrate this act on another later on. No matter whether you called it a learned skill or not, the thread is about the perception of Common Sense. A majority of whatevers sets the standard of "common sense". Is the standard valid in all cases? Absolutely not!
Once more, we are not created equal. Some have the learning ability to end up in a group where their "common sense" is acceptable. If not, you find another crowd where you all have something in common. Like sense!:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

I did a quick search for Common Sense in some online dictionaries. This is what I found:

1 : the unreflective opinions of ordinary people
2 : sound and prudent but often unsophisticated judgment
3 : Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment
[Translation of Latin sensus commnis, common feelings of humanity.]
4 : A supposed sense which was held to be the common bond of all the others.

Common sense, according to Sir W. Hamilton:
(a)The complement of those cognitions or convictions which we receive from nature, which all men possess in common, and by which they test the truth of knowledge and the morality of actions.
(b)The faculty of first principles.
These two are the philosophical significations.
(c)Such ordinary complement of intelligence, that,if a person be deficient therein, he is accounted mad or foolish.
(d) When the substantive is emphasized: Native practical intelligence, natural prudence, mother wit, tact in behavior, acuteness in the observation of character, in contrast to habits of acquired learning or of speculation.

My thoughts (maybe common sense, maybe not).

I would define common sense as the ability to know when theoretical knowledge of what is right and wrong (true or false, etc, etc) is weighed up against the persons life experience and a compromise is decided upon that optimises knowledge and experience.

Therefore in answer to the question can common sense be taught, I would say no - it is formulated from life experience.

As for people with extremely high intelligence I personally believe they have an 'overall' mental disability very similar to people at the other end of the spectrum who are considered retarded. Similar perhaps to autistic savants. Therefore thay are seen to have a great gift, but daily routines can be very difficult for them. I am talking true genius here, not just extremely clever like myself, did I say that ? Nurse ! Nurse !

Skullsike,

I read somewhere that the estimated time one spends as a student in a classroom setting (through 4 years of college) is about 3% of ones life. Why we put so much faith in something we spend only a small fraction of our time seems to me to be grossly overstated. Make no mistake about it: our schooling is important, but I would hazard to say that the life experiences and learning beyond the classroom setting should merit more attention than that we give it. This is most certainly true in the workplace.

We are born learning beings, and most of our learning occurs wherever, whenever. As Al points out though, our Educational System here in the States is turning for the worse. With intense attention being paid to Standardized Testing (which amount mostly to memorization and recognition and very little learning), we get further from the target. Sad but true. Ideas like Vouchers and rewards programs for schools with a high rating all miss the point and by a wide margin. Democrats and Republicans alike offer nothing new in their political platforms for significant improvement. I would go as far as saying that they are doing great damage. Its an old paradigm in need of replacement.

My grandmother sounds a lot like your grandfather. She read the morning and evening newspapers cover to cover and engaged in thoughtful discussion. For her time, she was well informed and involved. What more should we expect from our fellow citizens? We need lifelong learners with the willingness to contribute unselfishly.

In CI Lewis’ opinion, common concepts are learned and only exist when two or more arrive at the same conclusion. Coming to any conclusion requires a combination of inherent knowledge and experience. Two or more people must have similar experiences to come to a mutual conclusion. This is why common concepts between people from distant places is difficult. How can we (US citizens) truly understand why people with rocks will throw them at people with rockets? How likely are we to come to a common conclusion? Our common sense tells us it’s a bad idea to throw rocks at people with rockets. I would hazard a guess, but I think our experiences here are a good deal different than most folks of this world. Atul's third definition uses the word 'native' that to me makes good sense.

As you correctly point out, Dr. Deming’s comment that ‘in anyone’s world, they are right’ speaks to the point that anyone’s opinion shapes their reality no matter how it appears to anyone else. If put on a lie detector about their assumptions, they could pass it without a problem while you or I might fail it because we believe in another set of assumptions. They are right, we are right despite arriving at different conclusions. Our common sense is not all that common.

Dr. Deming gave Marshall Thurber on a Friday afternoon several papers written on the speed of light (about 12 papers). Marshal told me he wasn’t happy about being given all these papers just before the weekend and even liked it less when Dr. Deming said, “Read them and tell me on Monday which one is right.” Marshal read the papers and returned Monday a bit miffed and confused. All the papers had come to different conclusions and only a few had similar computations. Marshall told Dr. Deming “these three appear to be right” where Dr. Deming said, “Wrong! Do it again.” Marshall reread the papers and kept two previous picks and replaced the other with another. Dr. Deming said, “Wrong! Do it again.” By now, Marshall was becoming irritated. On the third try, Marshall kept his most recent picks the same. Dr. Deming replied, “They’re all right, none better than the other.” He went on to say that in anyone’s world, their answer is right. What is important is what is behind the conclusions. Who presented their thoughts best and could substantiate their arguments best. How do we measure one’s ability to think with Standardized Tests? We cannot. How do teachers in classrooms develop thinkers through the issuance of grades and gold stars? They cannot. What they/we are reduced to is a thoughtless society. True learning is eroded at the earliest stages in life the sooner school systems come to test our children. We deserve better.

Well, back to the group…

Kevin

Kevin,

Great post. I wonder at the basic logic of the decision making process of many people, including some on this board.

Nobody is perfect, and we all have thoughts that sometimes run in the face of reality and objective opinion. And there are those that learn that objectivism is a true method of survival.

I have been told that I read too much into the words and thoughts of the philosophers, but I believe wisdom is learned by such readings and application of those ideas to real life.

Now, after that, do I have an open mind or a thinking mind? There is a difference. :bigwave:

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Kevin,
Great post. I wonder at the basic logic of the decision making process of many people, including some on this board.
I have been told that I read too much into the words and thoughts of the philosophers, but I believe wisdom is learned by such readings and application of those ideas to real life.


The censer or incense burner in neo-pagan witchcraft is used for burning incense, herbs, wood and other substances, to cleanse and purify the air before rituals. Censing, which represents the element of air, exorcises and keeps unwanted energies away from the magic site; offers sweet air to the Philosopher Spirits; raises vibrational rates and summons energies; relaxes the senses; and contains and concentrates power. The act of burning incense or other substances is also known as carrying our wishes up to the Philosopher Spirits.

Just trying to help.
:biglaugh: :ko: :smokin:

:truce:


Huh? (I second skullsike)


You guys are getting wayyyyyyyyyy too deep here...let's use some common sense!

Its inherent and then enhanced by life experience...those of you (Ha ha ....notice i said ....you....) that don't have it, will not get it through life experience...you may learn from an experience and "condition" yourself...but common sense isn't quite the same.

Open mind = everything gets in and stays
Thinking mind = what you want gets in through a filter

Sorry to be so whatever. Life is too short to worry about the small things. Just ask my wife!

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Open mind = everything gets in and stays
Thinking mind = what you want gets in through a filter


Weak mind=inability to express one self
Blown mind=everything gets in, stays in and smolders
Empty mind=happy
Sick mind=Me

I'm sure there are others!:biglaugh:

Happy Holidays

Al,

I think that having an open mind suggests that one is willing to consider another's point of view (another's assumptions). This is an extremely important attribute. One is able to refine theory. I agree: everything gets in because you aren't filtering out things that don't necessarily fit your Thinking mind's definitions.

I see a couple truce flags flying and a couple "Huh?" questions. I must add a third "Huh?" to the mix.:truce:

energy,

Mental illness...ain't it great?? :biglaugh:

Happy Easter/Passover/Weekend everyone!!

Kevin

Ken,

The depths of my madness is unknown!:biglaugh:

Everyone!! Stop listening to me and save yourselves!!

Kevin

Originally posted by Kevin Mader
energy,

Mental illness...ain't it great?? :biglaugh:

Happy Easter/Passover/Weekend everyone!!

Kevin

Who me? Mental? Well, maybe a little. Have a great Easter Holiday, my CT Amigo, and stop being so shy. Don't let us Naugatuckian knuckleheads intimidate you Seymour intellectuals. :ko: :smokin:

1. A king size water bed holds enough water to fill a 2000 sq. foot house....... 4 inches deep.
2. If you spray hair spray on dust bunnies and run over them with roller blades, they can ignite.
3. A 3-year-old's voice is louder than 200 adults in a crowded restaurant.
4. If you hook a dog leash over a ceiling fan, the motor is not strong enough to rotate a 42 pound boy wearing Batman underwear and a Superman cape. It is strong enough, however, if tied to a paint can, to spread paint on all four walls of a 20 by 20 foot room.
5. You should not throw baseballs up when the ceiling fan is on. When using the ceiling fan as a bat, you have to throw the ball up a few times before you get a hit. A ceiling fan can hit a baseball a long way.
6. The glass in windows (even double panes) doesn't stop a baseball hit by a ceiling fan.
7. When you hear the toilet flush and the words "Uh-oh," it's already too late.
8. Brake fluid mixed with Clorox makes smoke-and lots of it.
9. A six year old can start a fire with a flint rock even though a 36-year-old man says they can only do it in the movies. A magnifying glass can start fire even on an overcast day.
10. Certain LEGOs will pass through the digestive tract of a four-year-old.
11. Play Dough and Microwave should never be used in the same sentence.
12. Super glue is forever.
13. No matter how much Jell-O you put in a swimming pool you still can't walk on water.
14. Pool filters do not like Jell-O.
15. VCR's do not eject peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even though TV commercials show they do.
16. Garbage bags do not make good parachutes.
17. Marbles in gas tanks make lots of noise when driving.
18. You probably do not want to know what that odor is.
19. Always look in the oven before you turn it on. Plastic toys do not like ovens.
20. The fire department in Austin, TX has a 5 minute response time.
21. The spin cycle on the washing machine does not make earth worms dizzy.
22. It will, however, make cats dizzy.
23. Cats throw up twice their body weight when dizzy.
24. The mind of a six-year-old is wonderful.

First Grade... true story.... One day the first grade teacher was reading the story of the Three Little Pigs to her class. She came to the part of the story where the first pig was trying to accumulate the building materials for his home. She read, "...And so the pig went up to the man with the wheelbarrow full of straw and said, "Pardon me sir, but may I have some of that straw to build my house?' " The teacher paused then asked the class, "And what do you think that man said?" One little boy raised his hand and said, "I think he said 'Holy ****...a talking pig!' " The teacher was unable to teach for the next ten minutes.


I guess common sense depends on your frame of reference. Paint spun from a ceiling fan makes sense to me.... :vfunny: :bonk: My poor son doesn't stand a chance... :smokin:

Hope everyone has a Happy Easter, a pleasant Passover, or a festive Holi.

Cheers!!!!

Michael T,
Hope everyone has a Happy Easter, a pleasant Passover, or a festive Holi.

Thanx Michael, so nice of you to remeber Holi, India's festival of colors!

Atul,

No problem... :D

The Hindu religion is fascinating. My favorite holidays are Holi, Dewali (I hope I spelled that right) & Kartik. I took several classes in Eastern religions in college and always found Hinduism intriguing.

Cheers!!

While everyone has a pretty good idea of what "sense" is, it's the "common" part of the phrase under discussion that seems to spark the differences in opinion. To me, something becomes common when most living people agree on it.

We all tend to stop (or at least slow down!) at a red light, but someone born two hundred years ago wouldn't know what to do at a modern intersection. Does this mean people living long ago had no common sense? Of course not; darn few people these days know which side of a horse to mount from but it doesn't mean they are stupid.

In other words, it is something you learn but it's so basic you take it for granted until someone violates it. When you violate it, you feel like a jerk; when someone else violates it, you probably laugh because (to you) it's so obvious where that other person went wrong...

You may think some things don't change, like keeping your hands out of the fire or which end of the shovel to grab, but keep in mind there was once a time when shovels and even fire were unknown. Common sense in those days may have merely been "run from anything bigger than you are" and "don't eat the yellow snow"...

Mickeyman, you are so right to say that even things we take as common sense must be learned. When I was about 6, my uncles taught me a lesson that many of us might say is 'common sense'. I had no idea of what electricity was. My uncle had an electric fence and we would pick up weeds and touch the fence. You could feel a faint 'pulse' through the weed. My other uncle said "if you think that's neat, try peeing on it." :eek: That was my first lesson on electricity! I've had a healthy respect for it ever since! Common sense is only useful if you have something to compare it to.

Dave, I'm seriously lacking in common sense related to electric fence peeing....:eek: Does a shock travel up your pee and bite you? Or does it set off sparks? Or what? ( I am serious!)

I've been there. :eek:

The description of what happens cannot be printed here :biglaugh:

Lucinda said:

Dave, I'm seriously lacking in common sense related to electric fence peeing....:eek: Does a shock travel up your pee and bite you? Or does it set off sparks? Or what? ( I am serious!)


Lets just say that the electricity seeks to go to ground through your body. "Bite" is one term for it I suppose. (also been there)

James

Yep it hurt. I instinctively cross my legs when I think about it. I wonder where this nervous twitch I have came from?:eek:

JRKH said:

Lets just say that the electricity seeks to go to ground through your body. "Bite" is one term for it I suppose. (also been there)

James

I wonder where I can find an electric fence to experiment with. My gut feel is that I may like it and visit once a week. :vfunny: Maybe I can build a small one and charge admission for the geriatric set.:p :ko: :smokin:

Well, Now we know: common sence can be learned...

I saw it happen once, during my military service. One of the blokes felt the urge and took aim at a conveniently placed fence. The rest of us knew it was electrified, but somehow :p we neglected to tell him that.... (Yes, I know. I have a mean streak:o ) His scream was out of this world. I wonder if that military fence held more oomph than your ordinary cattle fence?

Anyway, to make a long story wonderfully short, we all learned never to pee on an electric fence. Would that be considered distance learning?

/Claes

energy said:



I wonder where I can find an electric fence to experiment with. My gut feel is that I may like it and visit once a week. :vfunny: Maybe I can build a small one and charge admission for the geriatric set.:p :ko: :smokin:


Energy,

In your case it might be considered as shock treatments.

Self administered ECT now thats a vivid image.

James

:smokin:
I "read" once that by maintaining the stream to cattlewire contact for 10 seconds or more one can alter the heartbeat to the same base time signature of the wire's pulse which has been rumored to cause spiritual visions not unlike those of native aboriginal sorts. Thats what I "read". haha
:thedeal:

JRKH said:

Energy,

In your case it might be considered as shock treatments.

Self administered ECT now thats a vivid image.

James

James,

Aren't those administered to the head?:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

:ko: :smokin:

Energy,

You shouldn't feed me lines like that.

I'm not EVEN going to go there.
Marc will hve to toss us all off the boards.....

James

What was it? I remember ROFLMAO. About a Brake factory in Toledo Ohio. A great rental. Lucinda can find out exactly what happens! Was it Tommy Boy?

I believe you are right. Tommy Boy.

I have been known to put a capacitor in a urinal and cover it with a piece of paper.:biglaugh:


Talk about shouts of surprise.

JKRH,

100% correct, live and love life!

Oh charming - reminds me of high school when guys would steal high-value resistors from the electronics shop and jam them into the AC outlets in the cafateria - they would warm up for a few seconds (giving the prankster time to casually walk away) then pop, creating a pretty nasty odor...

Randy said:

I have been known to put a capacitor in a urinal and cover it with a piece of paper.:biglaugh:
Talk about shouts of surprise.

Yep... I've done that too.. (The mean streak showing up again :o ) And I agree about the "sound effects". They were very colourful. Another military service prank of course...

/Claes

In spite of the Weight Gain thread where it mentions the hot coffee lawsuit, I thought this post should go here.

Enjoy :(

Obituary

Today, we mourn the passing of an old friend, by the name of Common Sense. Common Sense lived a long life but died in the United States from heart failure on the brink of the new millennium. No one really knows how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools, hospitals, homes, and factories helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness. For decades, petty rules, silly laws, and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense. He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, and that life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn!), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge, not the kids), and it's okay to come in second. A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational trends including body piercing, whole language, and "new math." But his health declined when he became infected with the "If-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus.

In recent decades his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of well intentioned but overbearing regulations. He watched in pain as good people became ruled by self-seeking lawyers. His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero-tolerance policies.

Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, a teen suspended for taking a swig of mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student only worsened his condition. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but could not inform the parent when a female student was pregnant or wanted an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost his will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal judges stuck their noses in everything from the Boy Scouts to professional sports.

Finally, when a woman, too stupid to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, was awarded a huge settlement, Common Sense threw in the towel.

As the end neared, Common Sense drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments regarding questionable regulations such as those for low-flow toilets, rocking chairs, and stepladders.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by two stepsiblings: My Rights, and Ima Whiner. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

after reading all these opinions, i still stick to mine. It is taught. If it is by the community we are part of, the society we live in, or the education we receive. I cant specify the correct source and assume it is a combination of all, but i do know, as long as there are people without it (and i have met many) it cant be inherent and surely not outcome of life experience (which to me is the same as learned, imho)

after reading all these oppinions, i still stick to mine. It is taught.

So tell me this, who exactly is qualified to teach it? :tg:

I believe that common sense is not learned or taught. Either you have common sense abilities or not. Look at highly intelligent individuals. Rarely do they possess common sense. Those that have the ability to have common sense have higher and lower abilities. Some of life experiences can allow you to learn higher ability common sense if you have that ability to begin with.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cindy

My experience and asscoiation with many people over the years indicates that common sense in basically inherent, but may be improved with life experience. I have worked with lots of people who were book smart but had no sense, and people with no formal education who could solve manufacturing problems using commom sense. I guess KISS is still the best.

Common sense is inherent to the risk we want to take. Common sense will tell us not to stand on the top wrung of a ladder (OSHA usually has a sticker on it) but we have done it 100 times before but on the 101st time we fall and break a leg.

My version

Ralph Waldo Emerson said that common sense is genius dressed in working man's clothes (or something to that effect).

Webster's says it is "sound and prudent but often unsophisticated judgment".

With those thoughts in mind, I would say that common sense starts with the inherent; some people are predisposed to "sound judgment", where others are not. Then life experience helps to hone and modify the ability to make "common sense" decisions. In my words, it is an abiding sense of the obvious.

That cannot be taught! Education may make a person lacking it move slightly toward better common sense, but it is far more difficult than for ones that have it inherently.

With those thoughts in mind, I would say that common sense starts with the inherent; some people are predisposed to "sound judgment", where others are not. Then life experience helps to hone and modify the ability to make "common sense" decisions. In my words, it is an abiding sense of the obvious.

That cannot be taught! Education may make a person lacking it move slightly toward better common sense, but it is far more difficult than for ones that have it inherently.
Good post, Rob!:agree1:

I know that my opinions have been stated here in the distant past, but I'll reiterate. You are born with or without the ability, as far as I can tell. Some folks hone their common sense to a fine tool, others don't. (and some just never get it) For example: I cannot figure it out, but my kids don't seem to have lick of common sense. The older one has some latent abilities but has never excercised them. How else can you explain a child that is asked if they have any clothes to be washed get them to me now, and get up the next morning and complain that everything they own is dirty, and laying on the floor? The youngest will calmly admit to his shortcomings, when he was 5 the babsitter's husband was fooling around and told him that he was broke. "do you have any dollars I can borrow", he asked? Young son 2 calmly stated, "no, and I don't have any cents (sense) either"

OK, that is my bad joke of the day.

How about this to ponder;

Common sense cannot be taught, but can be learned!:biglaugh:

How about this to ponder;

Common sense cannot be taught, but can be learned!

It can be learned through such events as observation and experience, but it isn't always learned.

Look at the concept of drinking and driving. Moving beyond the ethical issues regarding it, common sense says "Don't do it." Yet every summer, the police do a blitz and find a bunch of people doing it.

Common sense says if the stove is on, don't put your hand near it. Some kids learn this rather quickly...others, well, apparently Darwin was wrong.

In a snow storm, we know we shouldn't be driving but still, something compels many people to get in their car...and those of us who had the brains to stay home will see them on the 6 o'clock news complaining about how long it's taking to get the roads cleared and for the tow truck to get to them.

Of course, all of this aside...this discussion has made me think along another line....how advanced would humans be if everyone had common sense? I mean...back when we were still clubbing our food to death, there was nothing wrong with walking. It made sense to walk. If you didn't walk, you didn't get food. And yet, we evolved to invent spears and slings and the wheel...and even discovered that while raw meat was good, cooked meat had some serious benefits like longer preservation. Dogs were the enemy, honing in our sick, injured, old and young...common sense said to stay away from them. Yet, somewhere along the lines, someone thought the dog would make a great ally.

Like I said....made me start to think about the benefits on having a lack of common sense. SteelMaiden, maybe your son is the next Galileo! :magic:

SteelMaiden,

I thought only my children pulled the clothes thing.

I would explode and spend the next two days doing laundry (as if three loads a day was not enough) until I found a cure.

I taught my children how to do the laundry and told them that if they did not put their dirty clothes, daily, in the laundry so I could wash the clothes as usual, they were responsible for the stock piles. I held them to it. If they had plans on Saturday and had nothing to wear, their plans were canceled and they stayed home all day to finish their laundry.

On the same subject, I also hated when I had to re-wash clean clothes because they were thrown on the floor which always meant it would be placed back in the laundy. :topic:

Glad my kids are grown and I am done with all that.

Cindy

Not a jab at anyone, just trying to learn and improve my thought process. So I pose the following;

Can anybody give me an example of anything that is not learned, considering we are born blind and defenseless?

Al...

Not a jab at anyone, just trying to learn and improve my thought process. So I pose the following;

Can anybody give me an example of anything that is not learned, considering we are born blind and defenseless?

Define "learn" for me please. I mean, just because we know something, does not mean we apply. Doesn't learning entail both the collection and application of knowledge?

How about this to ponder;

Common sense cannot be taught, but can be learned!:biglaugh:
WOW! Need we say more? I think that you have this one nailed!

Not a jab at anyone, just trying to learn and improve my thought process. So I pose the following;

Can anybody give me an example of anything that is not learned, considering we are born blind and defenseless?

Al...
Not learned: We are born with the instintive need to draw breath, and make some sort of noise to alert others to our needs.

WOW! Need we say more? I think that you have this one nailed!

Well Gang. . . it souns like my favorite saying. . .

Life is a patient teacher. . . Life's lessons WILL be repeated until LEARNED. . . LOL Have a day!

Or this one
"Experience is a hard teacher, you get the test first, and the lesson afterward"

If we have Common Sense! What is Uncommon sense?

hasn't the litigation era basically nullified the need for Common Sense? We don't need common sense because we can sue someone else for our injuries. recently in Australia we had a young man jump off someones fence into a canal and break his neck.. He sued the owners (who weren't there) because they did not have signs up saying that it could be dangerous if you jumped off the fence. It was latter overturned because the apeal Judge was brave enough to say that the young man should have used common sense and taken responsibility for himself.

Greg B

Not learned: We are born with the instintive need to draw breath, and make some sort of noise to alert others to our needs.

Gotta disagree with you there. . . breathing is a semi-involuntary function. . . You can stop breathing. . .and if you hold your breath till you pass out, your body will start breathing on it's own. . . . hopefully befire any bamage can occur to the drain. Hard wired that way. :lmao:

Common sense, like wisdom, is learned behavior, and is derived from knowledge.

Not a jab at anyone, just trying to learn and improve my thought process. So I pose the following;

Can anybody give me an example of anything that is not learned, considering we are born blind and defenseless?

Al...
Still waiting:nopity:

Still waiting

What constitutes "learning", Al? Is it simply the gathering of knowledge or does it also entail the application of it? I mean, we all know that drinking and driving is pretty nonsensical, not only does a person risk their own life, but those of their passengers and other drivers and pedestrians. Yet, people continue to do it...people refuse to apply this knowledge. Have they learned? I'm just trying to get an understanding of you mean by "learning". :)

Those things that you inherit from your parents I would consider to be programmed behavior,i.e, speech patterns, mannerisms, awareness ....
Doctors say that alcoholism is a "programmed behavior", passed on through the generations. Mothers on "crack" have programmed their babies to become addicts.
However these traits can also be changed, somewhat, by learned behavior.

Doctors say that alcoholism is a "programmed behavior",

I am not sure I can agree with this. My father and my husbands father are or were both alcoholics, out of a combined total of 10 children, only one child is also an alcoholic by choice. Out of the original 10 children, add their children (25 plus), two are alcoholics (brothers) by choice and niether of their parents were alcoholics. Therefore how does the "programmed behavior" fit in?

Still waiting:nopity:
Three examples that I did not learn to do are sleeping, dreaming and sneezing.......IMHO when one is "tired" the instinct to sleep ( the body clock ) takes over.......and we may or may not dream I am not aware that one can controll ones dreams.........sneezing is an uncontrollable defensive reaction in our body.
I can only say that I have learnt to appreciate their benefits in particular to the first two.

Doctors say that alcoholism is a "programmed behavior",

I am not sure I can agree with this. My father and my husbands father are or were both alcoholics, out of a combined total of 10 children, only one child is also an alcoholic by choice. Out of the original 10 children, add their children (25 plus), two are alcoholics (brothers) by choice and niether of their parents were alcoholics. Therefore how does the "programmed behavior" fit in?

Cindy,
By programmed behavior I meant through the DNA we inherit from our parental lineage. Doctors have stated that there is an "alcoholism related gene" that is passed on and further state this is the reason alcoholism is classified as a disease. Do I agree? I really can't say one way or the other.
It's easy to say we all have a choice, but sometimes what we choose may be influenced by conditions/urges which we find difficult to control.

Not trying to get too detailed, this is a question for the ages and open to many interpretations. As to the alcoholic aspect of inherant behaviour and the disease concept, I have to disagree with the masses, I do not believe in it being a disease. Unfortunately I do have some experience in the area.

Learn;

TRANSITIVE VERB:
1. To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
2. To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.
3a. To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle.
3b. To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
4. To become informed of; find out. See synonyms at discover (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/11/d0261100.html).
5. Nonstandard To cause to acquire knowledge; teach.
6. Obsolete To give information to. INTRANSITIVE VERB:To gain knowledge, information, comprehension, or skill: learns quickly; learned about computers; learned of the job through friends. ETYMOLOGY:Middle English lernen, from Old English leornian. See leis-1 (http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE276.html) in Appendix I.OTHER FORMS:learnhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/prime.gifa·ble —ADJECTIVE
learnhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/prime.gifer —NOUN

The Structural Model of Addiction
© Copyright, 1996, Rational Recovery® Systems, Inc.

The disease concept of addiction has become quite popular, mainly because it is the nature of addicted people to dignify their deplorable conduct. The disease concept of addiction is pure Addictive Voice, concealing the actual reason people drink/use while it discourages individual initiative.

The structural model of addiction is unique to Rational Recovery. This simple idea helps make sense of your addiction and shows you why you have been behaving so stupidly. Ridding yourself of disease-thinking can help you recover from substance addiction.

The structural model presents your addiction as a function of health rather than disease. There are no hidden causes for your addiction; you drink because you love to drink. You use because you love the way it feels. Addiction is a natural function of the human body, based entirely upon the pleasure principle. Brain chemistry and genetics are irrelevant to recovery. Our 2-part brain model, below, is simple, but for our purposes, not simplistic.

There is no evidence that "alcoholism" or addiction is a disease or is caused by one. Nor is there any treatment for addiction, other than voluntary abstinence. To call abstinence a "treatment," however, is like saying that the treatment for the disease of long hair is a haircut, a needless complication that obscures the nature of the problem and the nature of its solution. When the disease concept becomes part of your Addictive Voice, you will feel like a victim of circumstances rather than someone who is responsible for becoming addicted, for staying addicted and for immediately quitting your addiction -- right now, for good.

In effect, you have two separate brains within your head which, among other things, compete with each other. One is primitive, similar to the brain of a dog or a horse. This we call the midbrain. It is basically the brain of a beast, and its only purpose is to survive.

The beast brain generates survival appetites which drive the rest of the body toward what it demands, such as oxygen, food, sex, and fluids. These survival needs are all associated with physical pleasure, i.e., the better something feels, the more necessary it seems for survival. Your crazy appetite for alcohol or drugs springs from the force of life, physical survival through the pursuit of physical pleasure. Your survival appetite is aimed at the wrong stuff, to be sure, but the desire to drink excessively is more a reflection of health than of a mysterious disease. The desire for pleasure fades among sick or diseased people, further suggesting that addiction is a reflection of health rather than a disease process. In RR, some call the human midbrain "the party center," because of the bond between pleasure and addiction. Of course, it is often quite stupid (self-defeating) to act on healthy desires or impulses, as in substance addictions.............

Al,

:applause:

Cindy

RC;

Knowing (learning) and acting upon that can be mutually exclusive.:agree1:

Can lead a horse to water.....................unless it wants to!

Al...

RC;

Knowing (learning) and acting upon that can be mutually exclusive.:agree1:

Can lead a horse to water.....................unless it wants to!

Al...

Hmmm...forgot about this thread....

Okay, so using this horse as the example....it's dying of thirst, if it doesn't drink soon, it will die. Common sense says what? That it should drink, of course. The horse knows this. We know this. But the horse chooses not to drink....chooses not to act upon the knowledge. So how can we say that common sense is learned?

Perhaps I'm taking the easy road on this one, but is it possible that the answer to this question is simple? We've been busy discussing the merits of common sense being taught, learned, inherent, or experienced based...and I just realized something all because of an email I just sent off to a friend.

I told him that life isn't always black and white. That my ability to compartmentalize aspects of my life sometimes needs to be set aside so that I can appreciate the chaos around me.

Why does common sense have to be either taught or learned or inherent or experienced-based? Can it not be some combination thereof? Some things are truly inherent...I know not to breathe underwater (unless I have SCUBA gear on...but, truth be told, it took me a while to get over the fear of "breathing" underwater). Some things are taught to us...we know to look both ways before crossing the street to avoid being struck by a vehicle. Somethings are learned...we know not to touch a hot burner on the stove because we did it as a child. Some things are experience-based....we know to slow down when driving on an icy road because we've driven in bad weather before and have experienced how tricky it can be.

I find that sometimes people in our industry are so used to being change-agents and solution-providers that we try to find the "one right answer" to everything...we forget that sometimes this doesn't exist. The world is not always made up of yes's and no's, left's and right's....and it's these uncertain areas that not only spark great debates, but make our time on this planet truly worthwhile.

Of course, with all of that being said, how can it be that people who have seemingly no common sense still walk amongst us? I mean, was Darwin really that wrong?!?! :rolleyes:

No arguement from me Roxane, but my grandmother used to say:

"Boy, ain't you learnt no common sense!" If I would have given your answer, she would have made me fetch a switch.

No arguement from me Roxane, but my grandmother used to say:

"Boy, ain't you learnt no common sense!" If I would have given your answer, she would have made me fetch a switch.

Well, at least you didn't correct her grammar. :D

Well, at least you didn't correct her grammar.

I kaint figger out wat ur sayn

If you look at the phrase itself "Common Sense", this is what I take from it:
Common would suggest that it is accepted by a majority. To me that would mean that it can be situational and therefore subjective.
What could be considered common sense to an expert may not necessarily be to the layman.
We can't confuse survival instinct (fight or flight) from learned behavior. The first time you touch the hot eye on a stove your instinct says that hurts and you pull your hand away. What you learn is that the stove can hurt you. You don't understand that it has to be on, maybe the eye is red, etc. So you shy away from all stoves. Later you understand that if it is off it is not a threat. It is filed away and you have learned a "Common" lesson that if the stove is on don't touch it if you don't want to get hurt. Therefore - Commom Sense.
;)

From RC----

Perhaps I'm taking the easy road on this one, but is it possible that the answer to this question is simple? We've been busy discussing the merits of common sense being taught, learned, inherent, or experienced based...and I just realized something all because of an email I just sent off to a friend.

I told him that life isn't always black and white. That my ability to compartmentalize aspects of my life sometimes needs to be set aside so that I can appreciate the chaos around me.

Why does common sense have to be either taught or learned or inherent or experienced-based? Can it not be some combination thereof? Some things are truly inherent...I know not to breathe underwater (unless I have SCUBA gear on...but, truth be told, it took me a while to get over the fear of "breathing" underwater). Some things are taught to us...we know to look both ways before crossing the street to avoid being struck by a vehicle. Somethings are learned...we know not to touch a hot burner on the stove because we did it as a child. Some things are experience-based....we know to slow down when driving on an icy road because we've driven in bad weather before and have experienced how tricky it can be.

I find that sometimes people in our industry are so used to being change-agents and solution-providers that we try to find the "one right answer" to everything...we forget that sometimes this doesn't exist. The world is not always made up of yes's and no's, left's and right's....and it's these uncertain areas that not only spark great debates, but make our time on this planet truly worthwhile.

Of course, with all of that being said, how can it be that people who have seemingly no common sense still walk amongst us? I mean, was Darwin really that wrong?!?! http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/rolleyes-a1.gif


From Al----

A: How do you know how to not breath underwater? We are all born in the water/life giving womb. It takes a doctor/midwife/deliverer ....... what would happen if all babies were left to their own accord without the help of ""someone""....

Hair color, skin complexion, height, wieght, etc..... can be genetically adopted. But how is knowledge acquired? A person or a horse knows where the water is, knows that if they need a drink they can do so, or choose not to.

As to the 3 parts of the brain, id, ego, super ego, one is controlling our actions without thinking required. (funny bone) One is controlled by our brain, (hammer on thumb = pain), one were not to sure of but can be described as the good angel on the left shoulder and the bad angel on the right shoulder.\

Great discussion!!!!!:agree1:

Good reply Al,

I would agree with everything you say.

Your mention of Darwin reminded me of the "Darwin Awards" - the honour given to the person who did the gene pool the biggest service by removing themselves in the most extraordinarily stupid way.


For example: A man in Alabama died from rattlesnake bites. It seems that he and a friend were playing a game of catch, using the rattlesnake as a ball. The friend, no doubt a future Darwin Awards candidate, was hospitalized.


Another example: When his 38-caliber revolver failed to fire at his intended victim during a holdup in Long Beach, California, would be robber James Elliot did something that can only inspire wonder. He peered down the barrel and tried the trigger again. This time it worked.....


It seems that in many cases such as these, the individuals seem to lack what I would call common sense - they apparently do not have the ability to think through the concequences of their actions, at a basic survival level.


Dave :cool:

How do you know how to not breath underwater? We are all born in the water/life giving womb. It takes a doctor/midwife/deliverer ....... what would happen if all babies were left to their own accord without the help of ""someone""....

So this is "taught".

Hair color, skin complexion, height, wieght, etc..... can be genetically adopted. But how is knowledge acquired? A person or a horse knows where the water is, knows that if they need a drink they can do so, or choose not to.

So "learned", but chosing not to apply the knowledge (implies a lack of common sense then in my opinion)

As to the 3 parts of the brain, id, ego, super ego, one is controlling our actions without thinking required. (funny bone) One is controlled by our brain, (hammer on thumb = pain), one were not to sure of but can be described as the good angel on the left shoulder and the bad angel on the right shoulder.

Inherent and experience.

To recap then, we have taught, learned, inherent and an outcome of experience....sounds like a combination to me.

A: How do you know how to not breath underwater? We are all born in the water/life giving womb. It takes a doctor/midwife/deliverer ....... what would happen if all babies were left to their own accord without the help of ""someone""....
I don't know if I follow you here. Birth does not require a doctor etc. Highly recommended but not required. The mothers' body instinctively does the work. Young children {<1 yr} swim underwater very well. Fear of water is what changes things.

My view is that there are 2 types: Instinct and Learned. Instinct can be honed and improved but they are based on survival (flight or fight again) needs. Learned is where we get common sense, these come from experience {doing} or lessons {taught}.
I really believe that "common sense" is based on environment or surroundings. If someone was to mention something about dribbling to me, I would visualize bouncing a basketball, it would be common sense to me. However in most countries it would pertain to soccer. My mom may even think it was about something dripping down my chin!

How about this;

What is intelagence, I can't even spell it, I learned to spell in school in the late 60's

Randy and others,

Would a human baby survive without acquiring knowledge from the Momma?

(no)

Would a turtle survive without the Mamma?

(maybe)

Do Ants, Bees, Wasps etc... survive because of their Queen?

----------------------------------------------------------------

There is a big difference between genetic disposition and learning, we all raise our hand in front of our eyes when we see something heading towards us. this is an involuntary response that is not learned or trained. This response comes from the "involuntary" part of our brain, like breathing.

If a newborn baby is left in a bed or in a field without the teaching and learning provided by the mother, will it survive????

Animals can survive on their own without the teaching and learning from their sperm and egg donors. Maybe that is why turtles lay hundreds of eggs in the hope that 5 live, birds, dogs, cats have multiple litters of offspring for the same reason. Humans have 1 usually, 2 occasionally, 3 maybe, etc......

Great conversation as usual, !!!!

Al....:applause:

How about we take this in a different direction:


"Common Sense is not Common Knowledge"
"Common Sense is not Acting Upon Knowledge"

"Common Sense is knowledge of something and acting upon it in a manner that..............???"

Givens:

1-Common sense is not genetically introduced.
2-Once acquired, Common Sense can be muted or lost.

How about it folks!;)

Al...

Hi Al,

I agree with you that:

"Common Sense is not Common Knowledge"
"Common Sense is not Acting Upon Knowledge"

How about:

Common sense is the ability to apply your mind to a new situation (i.e. one about which you have not been taught and have had no prior experience) and come out safely at the other side.

For example: If you had been brought up having seen every animal except a crocodile, then when finding yourself being approached by a hungry crocodile in a bad mood, your common sense should tell you that even though you don't know what it is, it matches other situations and animals well enough for you to know to take evasive action.

Another example: I don't think I've ever been told not to try to catch a falling tree, I've not seen anyone try to catch a falling tree, but I think it is my common sense that tells me that catching falling trees might not be the safest of hobbies!

From a dictionary: The term common sense (or as an adjective, commonsense) describes beliefs or propositions that seem, to most people, to be prudent and of sound judgment, without dependence upon esoteric knowledge.


Dave :cool:

Opening up,

Like you say, All learned, although a baby can't learn until it is taught?

Al...:applause:

What's the last thing a _________ (fill in the stereotype) says before they die?

Hey YA'LL watch this!!

This discussion thread has been resurrected right when I have wondered if common sense is even being used anymore. Some of the recent questions on audit findings makes you wonder if people have forgotten that common sense is important in developing your management systems. It could be that the various quality standards are becoming a crutch for what should be done versus thinking about what actually works.

Bill Pflanz

Some of the recent questions on audit findings makes you wonder if people have forgotten that common sense is important in developing your management systems. It could be that the various quality standards are becoming a crutch for what should be done versus thinking about what actually works.

Bill PflanzIt could be. Or maybe is the brain drain affecting management system professionals: implementers, consultants and auditors. Sometimes I wonder if we have a stupidity pandemic or we hear more cases because of we are now world wide wired "16/5".:mg:
Management system implementation and certification is suffering bad from the trivialization phenomenon. Like in the article from Mr. Randy Dougherty states: "When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". Shouldn't be bananas? :bonk:

RE: Bill and Sidney's responses..I think they are onto something.
The standards are becoming so regulatory and micro managed that the auditors and auditees are sounding like legalese phraseology. This gets closer to one day only lawyers will be internal and external auditors. Just look at some of the comments and discussions that have been posted on the Cove. :)
Now, does anyone believe lawyers, and lawmakers use common sense?:rolleyes:

This discussion thread has been resurrected right when I have wondered if common sense is even being used anymore. Some of the recent questions on audit findings makes you wonder if people have forgotten that common sense is important in developing your management systems. It could be that the various quality standards are becoming a crutch for what should be done versus thinking about what actually works.

Bill Pflanz


Some of us are trying to apply it frequently. But "common" sense is not always so common.

Some of us are trying to apply it frequently. But "common" sense is not always so common.

The greatest frustration that we all face is in desparately trying to do things that make sense--find the simplest working answers--in the face of clueless people who wouldn't know Occam's Razor (Don't multiply entities unnecessarily) if you succumbed to temptation and cut them into tiny pieces with it. Some are quick to blame the standard when the problem is people who want to use the standard as a substitute for thinking for themselves, and being creative. I've never yet seen a good idea--one that benefits customers and suppliers alike--that couldn't be accommodated by the standards. The problem is that the standards won't do our thinking for us, and won't do the work that's required to build a good system, and it's a lot easier to blame the standards than it is to find novel ways to use them to make things better.

.... I've never yet seen a good idea--one that benefits customers and suppliers alike--that couldn't be accommodated by the standards. The problem is that the standards won't do our thinking for us, and won't do the work that's required to build a good system....


Amen! Well stated.

I've never yet seen a good idea--one that benefits customers and suppliers alike--that couldn't be accommodated by the standards. The problem is that the standards won't do our thinking for us, and won't do the work that's required to build a good system, and it's a lot easier to blame the standards than it is to find novel ways to use them to make things better.

I am not surprised by your comments, you seem to have the common sense that I was speaking of. I realize that newbies probably are more likely to rely too much on the standards rather than what works. That said, there is some responsibility of the "experts" in the Cove to step back and call time out so that common sense can be used. The more mature users of the standards hopefully build a good system using the standards as a guide not a prescription.

I probably have ranted more than I should but I do feel better.

Bill Pflanz

Friends,

This is an older thread.

Any new insights or comments on "Common Sense?"

Stijloor.

Friends,

This is an older thread.

Any new insights or comments on "Common Sense?"

Stijloor.

Everyone throughout the entire thread has pretty much stated every possibility.

Everyone throughout the entire thread has pretty much stated every possibility.

Time to close this poll?

Stijloor.

Time to close this poll?

Stijloor.

Already done about 15-30 minutes ago.

Already done about 15-30 minutes ago.

Oops, now I see it! :bonk: :bonk:

Thanks.

Stijloor.