Hi....a request for input, if you will....

history:
I have been asked to do a paper/presentation on training stuff (1-2 hours)...very non specific request...so I took it one step further and deceided that 98% of companies do lip service to the training element, when it comes to identifying the training need, and when it comes to measuring effective training programs. Everyone does some stuff, all document what they think they have to, just for the sake of doing it to satisfy the standard...most of those will give a meaningless test to prove the training was effective, if they do anything. Everyone ( i.e. auditor) just ignores it.......but they can't anymore. It is a lazy auditors favorite element.

Its my plan to put together a simple model with some basics from my past teaching career, and some train the trainer programs I have done.....and some stuff i found on the internet from NASA, as well as some experience I got while helping clients apply for training funds. I have plenty of material, all fairly good...at least to my liking, but not necesarily to other non trainers......

what would you want to see?

The special part will be a workshop.......where we create a scenario (yet to be determined.......heads up...here is where i need help) and identify the training need......develop a training plan, a record, and the measure of effectivity.......That will serve to bring all the material to a useable level....and show me if my training was effective!!!!!

As a quickie at the end, we will discuss how to document this on a training grant application (our state does a lot of this...)

my request:
Can anyone provide some examples I can share as ways others have done "identify the needs", or developed programs...I have a couple but could use more for fodder

Any suggestions on a scenario? it will be a group of 15-30 depending (maybe I am optimistic....LOL) I have done candy factories, driving a car, making the morning coffee, assembling a notebook to death......should be a familiar task.

thanks so much...i know you all will come through you always do

barb

Hello Barb,

Training issues are always a tough one. Let me describe what we did to address this.

We developed a set of "checklist" forms and a "new employee" documentation folder. HR issues a folder for each new employee. Included in the folder are all necessary forms for payroll, required personal information sheets, basic orientation forms covering quality and safety, and a detailed checklist of what training issues would be covered. The assigned supervisor is required to complete all the detailed checklists and return it to HR. The system is simple, yet effective.

Included in the packet is an Orientation Overview form, which measures effectiveness. I will try to post it here.

Hope this helps some.

CarolX

thanks carol, I saved it and will pass it out as one example. How did you determine the needs checklists you talked about? was it formal and detailed, or general? procedure based or theory? what works best for you and why?

questions questions......i know i am being a pain.....but i want to address it in depth, i am most interested in what works and what doesn't and the reasons...I will share the finished product.

here is mine
I typically use 2, one in HR that covers the quality system/policy facility wide stuff, safety, MSDS right to know, rules, etc. that is just a check sheet. ..... then one work site specific based on procedures. its a matrix with 3 parts. One lists 20 tasks, procedures etc. one lists the job functions in progression (entry level operator, operator, senior operator, trainer etc.) with 1-20 (representing the above 20 tasks) as the column header. An X under the culumn indicates which tasks are needed for the position/function. the third table on the sheet lists the employee and the X or date in the block under the 20 tasks indicates the training is complete. There is a sign off block for the supervisor etc. and date of update.

why it works,
its simple, clear and easy to complete. It is just one sheet, unless there are more than 20 tasks......it covers needs identification, and serves as the record. it an be posted for reference.......great for OJT and setting goals for the employee.

whats missing
does not cover the details of what was trained, or effectivity. doesn't work as well for supplemental, away from the work site stuff....it can cover it, but not as nicely.

So I added a preformance verification based on critical points in the procedure and a lesson plan for those. TESTS do not work for me.....all they prove is that you an take a test....i actually (or a designate...) go out and observe the person at the task according to the list of stuff identified as critical. THEN... i give those same lists to the "internal auditors in training" when that area is being audited as a tool to guide them.

here is the matrix, I forgot to attach it

Barb,

Always a tough topic for folks.

The needs analysis can be realatively simple to very complex depending on how indepth you wish to get. If you want to do the classical approach you would start with job descriptions of the postion. The job descriptions should include the skills, knowledge, and abilities required to perform the function. Note that those are three distinctly different things. Once those are known you can then compare those to the individual being assessed to determine the gap. The comparison can be acomplished through interviews with the individual, manager, peers, and in some cases subordinates. A review of performance appraisals can also be used to generate gap information.

On to your direct question. You could use existing job descriptions if they identify skills, knowledge, and abilities. Then create a few fictitious employees (applications, job appraisals) who the group could evaluate against the requirements. Finally set yourself up as the supervisor, peer, subordinate and have the group interview you to get insight on the employee for the gap analysis. You can script this for yourself or make it up on the fly based on the questions asked. I personally like to make it up as I go because I do not have to think through all of the posible questions before the training. After they complete the gap analysis you could give them training catalogs as an aid in finding available programs or as an aid in developing general curriculum sugestions. If you need a catalog of training courses I will be glad to send you a few copies of ours.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

Regards,

Rick

thats exactly where i am headed....but am looking for a "job function" that is ficticious, that anyone can relate to. We will ID the needs using/creating several tools...like a job description, matrix or the like, then create a training plan/lesson plan or the like and a record to capture it, and a means for verifying the training was effective back at the work site.

Are your training catalogs electronic? i would like to see them

thanks

Barb,

The full catalog is in a printed version but you can access it through our website www.mranet.org.

With regard to the job description, how about chauffeur. If you have kids you certainly can relate to that job. Think of the possibilities for skills and knowledge beyond driving; knowledge of the area, intervention skills, time management, the list goes on and on.

Rick

Barb,

Your system is very similar to what we do. I e-mailed you an example. Let me know what you think.

Because of some proprietary data on the forms, I could not post here. Sorry folks.

Regards,
CarolX

Hi All,

:bigwave:

I'm new on the forum and new in the 'Q'Business...

A short explanation:
I've been working in Business Development for about 2 years for a small company (23 persons) with a horizontal hierarchical structure. We sell products & services in the field of mass transport (ranging from studies to maitenance).

After having presented the advantages of implementing a Quality System to my General Manager, I was 'bombarded' Responsible for Quality.
Since then, I've attended some training sessions about Quality Management Systems and Internal Auditing and must say that the process approach really opened my eyes....
It's my job to open the eyes of my colleagues now...

I hope to be able to solve the different problems I'm facing today and hope - one day - being able to help others solving theirs.

My aim is to keep everything as simple as possible, i.e. where possible, combine different aspects of the norm into one process.

I'd like to start off with our Training procedure with which I have some problems. I determined the following steps in the process:
1. IDENTIFICATION of training needs (with GO/No GO from General Manager regarding relevancy)
2. PLANIFICATION of training
3. EXECUTION of training
4. EVALUATION of training
5. Documentary UPDATE

As an input to the process, I'd like to use some kind of Employee Qualification Document as a reference. This document should be updated after each training session and should give an overview of the person's expertise / competences / .... according to his/her function within the company.

First problem:
Does anybody have suggestions about the format of such a 'Qualification document'? What is actually required by the Norm?

Second problem:
Everybody does a bit of everything in our company- the description of functions is very difficult (I've read in the forum that this is a common problem :) so how can we construct a grid that is clear and in line with the different functions we determined in our other procedures?

Third problem:
How can we REALLY evaluate training?

Fourth problem:
A Training Program will be a welcome 'innovation' in our company. But how can we determine how much money needs to be spent? What do we prioritise?

Thanks a lot!

:agree:

Andy,

Not being sure how your company is set-up makes it hard to suggest training ideas. Like many subjects, each company has to decide what works best in their environment. However, you mentioned that "everybody does a bit of everything in our company" and I have been there once or twice. One idea that may or may not fit your company is to identify what tasks are important and then certify people to the task(s). For example, let's say 2 of your important tasks are "Processing Customer Purchase Orders" and "Final Cleaning of Widgets". Do you have a written "level 3" work instruction or SOP for those tasks? Do you have someone who is capable of being a "trainer"? If so, have the trainer go over the documented procedures, demonstrate the task, and watch the trainee perform the tasks. Maybe test-out the trainee by having them do a few from scratch, maybe with a "problem" or two thrown in. Once both the trainer and trainee are comfortable, have them sign a certification form for that task. Then monitor the trainee for a few days/weeks just to be sure everything goes okay. (Longer term, monitoring CAR's and scrap/complaints can also help guage training needs). Eventually, the trainee can perhaps become good enough to be a trainer, assuming the aptitude and knowledge is there. A simple form can be used to record certifications (trainers name, trainee's name, date, task name, level of certification, etc.).

Just one idea out of many possibilities.

Mike S.

Mike,

Thanks for your suggestions!

What I could indeed do, bearing them in mind, is to inventory all the actions of our documented procedures and instructions into one document.

Then, I can start ranking each action according to its importance.

Afterwards, I can add the columns representing the names of our staff to the table and complete it with the following info:
- N/A (when the action does not apply to the staff member)
- trainee (when the staff member can not execute the action yet)
- OK (when the staff member can execute the action accordlingly)
- trainer (when the staff member 'masters' the action)

For each employee, I can then filter the actions they are or should be involved with according to these criteria which will give me an idea of his/her capabilities, expertise,... but also the training needs.

Finally, I can create the form you mentionned as to monitor and evaluate progress after training...

Thanks. I'll try to develop this first. I'm sure I'll be back with some more questions...

:agree:

:agree:

OK. I created the document, added all the names of our employees, completed it with all the procedures annex actions we have documented and... stuck...

Because what I've written before doesn't fit the purpose. I can't attach the four categories I've come up with to the actions from our procedures.

What I have to define are the underlying QUALIFICATIONS of each action: What do our employees have to know, master, be able to do in order to execute the actions.

Question:
How can I structure QUALIFICATIONS?
- Can somebody provide me with a list of predifined qualifications?
(I mean, for one action, one has to be able to speak fluent French, know how to create a Word document,...). I have no idea how I can organise precisely
- To which detail am I supposed to go determining the qualifications?
(I hope I don't have to mention which Word functions my colleague has to know for example, but I would like to provide the necessary detail of qualification in order to structure and understand our training needs even better. )

Thanks beforehand.


:agree:

Andy,

As you are beginning to see, the training needs assessment is not as simple as it appears. The form, while helpful, does not address the basic issue - what training is required. To answer that questions you have to do some sort of training needs assessment and analysis. You need to determine the organizational direction and needs and the employee knowledge, skills, and aptitude, then you can concentrate on the actual training to perform.

Take the final cleaning of widgets example. It is not as simple as training someone by going over the procedure, demonstrating the task, and then having them demonstrate proficiency. Typically there are ancillary skills and knowledge that are required. You need to start with an training objective (documneted) that specifies the job to be done, the skill levels required, the acceptance criteria (how do we know if we are performing to standard), the time requirements, the conditions under which the job must be performed, ancillary skills required, resources, etc. You then need to do a job breakdown that separates the pieces of the job into logical steps. When training the steps should be taught from simple to complex with demonstartion of proficiency at each step. The trainer does the complex steps and the trainee does the easy steps. In the next iteration the trainer gives the trainee more complex steps in the process and continues this process until the trainee is doing the full process. You also need to consider the qualifications and make sure you have covered those. You can pick those up from an analysis of the job description for the position and from input on the training objective form.

I suggest you try to find a relatively current book on training. Look for one that references the Kirkpatrick model, the experiential learning model, the Kolb Theory. This should give you some background on the training development and measurement theory. For training techniques look for Robert Pike's Book, Creative Training Techniques Hanbook", ISBN 0-943210-33-X. I would not buy it, but it is worth a look. Carolyn Nilson has a lot of forms in her book which help with the training needs assessment. "Training Program Workbook & Kit", ISBN 0-13-926247-4.

Best of luck,

Rick

My company is aprt of a division - I am told that the job descriptions cant be used from the mother company. I have made competancy and training effectivenes forms that really do include the skills necessary. There is a gap in some of the machien operators due to literacy and language barrrier. I also am finding out the hard way that a lot of the OSHA trianing has been done for new employees becasue OSHA only requires that it be doneyearly. therefore an employee can work 11 months and not have had Hazrdous material training.
I wouldlike to flowchart rather than my procedure, has anybody done that?
Is anybody using software to maintain records?
I have attached my procedures and competancy forms

I also am finding out the hard way that a lot of the OSHA trianing has been done for new employees becasue OSHA only requires that it be doneyearly. therefore an employee can work 11 months and not have had Hazrdous material training.


I don't think so there pardner.......you better recheck what the law states in this case 29CFR1910.1200 Hazard Communication

You aren't the safety dude are you?

This is a sample of the competency profile that we are using. I obtained the basic copy from this forum and added a few items. The task #'s correspond to the tasks and responsibilities defined in the individual job descriptions. As for flowcharting, I have charted the process but I also like to include a brief process description in text format.

Sorry,

I can not post the attachment.

Mshell

Sorry,

I can not post the attachment.

Mshell


M,

Have you made sure that after you have BROWSED for your document then selected the ADD THIS FILE button and waited for the file to appear in the window before pressing the ALL DONE button?

I can't tell you how many times I have had to go and edit my posts because I have forgotten to Press the right buttons. If you don't press the ALL DONE button you can then select more attachments and ADD THIS FILE and they will also appear in the window until you press ALL DONE. If you don't press ALL DONE they don't appear in your post. Hope this helps.
:bigwave:

Greg B

I tried to send you a private email. I know when I posted it took a few minutes to show up. Than I had to press done

Thanks for the instruction. It worked :p

I also am finding out the hard way that a lot of the OSHA trianing has been done for new employees becasue OSHA only requires that it be doneyearly. therefore an employee can work 11 months and not have had Hazrdous material training.
Randy's advice is IMPERETIVE. Check your state/OSHA laws again. Most, if not all, of that training you are talking about people not getting is mandated upon hire or transfer to a different area with yearly re-training/refresher. Please, if you are working for/with safety dept., check these laws carefully and save yourself some big heartache and monster fines.

We have developed an orientation program for each area of the organization. This program includes ISO documentation that all employees must be trained on, required Safety Training and HR documentation. This training is mandatory for all new employees (they do not begin work without having received the required training). The job specific training is accomplished during the 90 day probationary period.

Depending on the size of your QMS, it really does not take much time and you use a program like powerpoint to link the required documents, the links are updated as the documents change and there is very little maintenance (other than adding new requirements).

mshell: bigwave:

The job specific training is accomplished during the 90 day probationary period.

The OSHA related job specific training better take place before the folks are actually allowed to work. If not could have a N/C (not to mention the legal ramifications for the legal and civil side). Check it...if it's broke, fix it.

Hi Folks
It appears from the responses that everyone feels as I do that safety and Hazamat should be part of the training program. I am still trying to be clear in regard to the law. This only came in to play for me because of my responsibility for acheiving registeration for ISO/TS 16949 at my company.
Is the safety and OSHA required trianing subject to audit under the standard?
Has anyone seen that in print that would support the requirement and sell this to upper management?
I have already asked to control the safety training form on personal safety equipment but there appears to be some fears regarding this? I thought maybe if it was auditable and they could see it in print from a reputable source that might due it.
Thanks for the input.

The requirement is not specified in the standard but it is implied in section 4.2. If you have a copy of ANSI/ISO/ASQ Q9004-2000, look at the guidance section on page 3 and it will give you examples of the things that should be considered when addressing documentation. One of those items is relevant statutory and regulatory requirements (OSHA).

In my opinion, it is easier to manage all training in the same manner whether it be ISO, safety, process related or external. If the training is taking place as required, inclusion in your QMS should not be an issue.

The requirement is not specified in the standard but it is implied in section 4.2. If you have a copy of ANSI/ISO/ASQ Q9004-2000, look at the guidance section on page 3 and it will give you examples of the things that should be considered when addressing documentation. One of those items is relevant statutory and regulatory requirements (OSHA).

In my opinion, it is easier to manage all training in the same manner whether it be ISO, safety, process related or external. If the training is taking place as required, inclusion in your QMS should not be an issue.

ISO9004 is my favorite source of guidance, it is also what I reference when I am working with our management team at meeting the intent of requirements that are not explicit in ISO9001.

Good point in your second paragraph - this is what we do here.