Going through ISO 9001:2000, we read in 7.5: "Production and Service provision" and in 7.5.1: "Control of production and service provision" and then it goes on, describing the respective conditions and referring to the product (as usual), like in a) "….the product characteristics".

In the line of all the other sections and sentences, it appears that one could preferably read in both cases, “...... and Product provision”, as opposed to ".......... and Service provision" don’t you think?

What are your opinions? Was it a mistake or a deliberate sentence? In this later case, what is the rationale, when all the other sections, subsections and paragraphs refer to product (provision, monitoring, etc), and not the service (provision, monitoring, etc)?

Certainly, I am aware of the explanation given in paragraph 3 of the same document, stating that whenever the term “product” is mentioned, it can also mean “service”.
However, nowhere in that document is said that the contrary is also true, i.e., whenever you find the word service, it can also mean product!

Jim,

I agree with your comments 100%. BTW, you say:

> But there are three places where a record is required but
> the reference is missing!

Which/where are these?

I'm curious about the hidden records too. I found:

7.3.7 Design and development changes: "Design and development changes shall be identified and records maintained..."

(I suppose one could argue that the records of the review of the changes required just after this would be also a record of the change)

and

7.6 Control of Monitoring and Measuring Devices: "The organization shall assess and record the validity of the previous measuring results.."

But I didn't find a third. All I did was search for the word "record" or "records" in the document, and looked for a reference to 4.2.4. Perhaps there's something I missed.

Also, thank you for pointing out that "These processes shall be managed by the organization in accordance with the requirements of this International Standard" is a totally redundant statement. I always laugh when I have to explain that one.

Julie

> In the line of all the other sections and sentences, it
> appears that one could preferably read in both cases,
> "...... and Product provision", as opposed to "..........
> and Service provision" don't you think?

A service is always a product but a product is not always a service. So I'd say yes.

> Also, thank you for pointing out that "These processes
> shall be managed by the organization in accordance with
> the requirements of this International Standard" is a
> totally redundant statement. I always laugh when I have to
> explain that one.

Me too.

Well, yes. I believe so. This is an area where things become quite company specific, but in general the records you mention are, I believe, kept in a typical company. See http://elsmar.com/Imp/sld187.htm

Don't let the lack of a requirement in the standard seduce you into the 'only do what the standard says' trap. Look at your company, your product and your processes and determine what records are appropriate.

Originally posted by Henrique
Going through ISO 9001:2000, we read in 7.5: "Production and Service provision" and in 7.5.1: "Control of production and service provision" and then it goes on, describing the respective conditions and referring to the product (as usual), like in a) "….the product characteristics".

In the line of all the other sections and sentences, it appears that one could preferably read in both cases, “...... and Product provision”, as opposed to ".......... and Service provision" don’t you think?

What are your opinions? Was it a mistake or a deliberate sentence? In this later case, what is the rationale, when all the other sections, subsections and paragraphs refer to product (provision, monitoring, etc), and not the service (provision, monitoring, etc)?

Certainly, I am aware of the explanation given in paragraph 3 of the same document, stating that whenever the term “product” is mentioned, it can also mean “service”.
However, nowhere in that document is said that the contrary is also true, i.e., whenever you find the word service, it can also mean product!

"Service" as opposed to your "Product" (which can be a service or a product) is explained in an ISO9000 note as an activity performed at the interface with your customer and is generally intangible. ( the hotel turning down your sheets, the driving directions to the highway that the rental car company gives you, etc. )

My understanding is that when the word "service" is used, it is referring to this intangible that you provide to your customers that is not a part of the product that are supplying to them (a product that may be a service!).

To give an example of how a service company can provide "service" in addition to their service product, ...consider the washing machine repairman who gives you a quick lesson on a small maintenance issue, or who writes down the serial and model number of your machine on a magnet and sticks it in a location where you can easily read it.

I would like a definition for service. Is it only the intangible? Or is repair, or plating, or heat-treating or those non-production type operations a service provision? I would think that Service Provision would be a vocabulary term in 9000, especially when it is often an exclusion to a QMS Scope!

Thanks for the Service! (I THINK!)
Doug

I would like a definition for service. Is it only the intangible? Or is repair, or plating, or heat-treating or those non-production type operations a service provision? I would think that Service Provision would be a vocabulary term in 9000, especially when it is often an exclusion to a QMS Scope!

Thanks for the Service! (I THINK!)
Doug
Good question! Well, ISO 9000-2000, section 3.4.2. covers it. They list 4 product categories, services, software, hardware, and processed materials. If something contains more than 1 of the above, pick the "dominant element". It also says "service is ... generally intangible". There is lotsa text there, and I don't have the e-copy or I would cut and paste it for you. Maybe someone else does, or, if not and you need it, I'll type it all when I have more time.

...is repair, or plating, or heat-treating or those non-production type operations a service provision?.
IMO no, they aren't. Note 2 in 3.4.2 of ISO 9000:2000 is pretty much a definition.
NOTE 2 Service is the result of at least one activity necessarily performed at the interface between the supplier (3.3.6) and customer (3.3.5) and is generally intangible. Provision of a service can involve, for example, the following:
— an activity performed on a customer-supplied tangible product (e.g. automobile to be repaired);
— an activity performed on a customer-supplied intangible product (e.g. the income statement needed to prepare a tax return);
— the delivery of an intangible product (e.g. the delivery of information in the context of knowledge transmission);
— the creation of ambience for the customer (e.g. in hotels and restaurants).
It says service is performed at the interface between the supplier and customer. Are repair, plating, or heat-treating occuring at the customer "interface?" No, but transport (one of the examples given in 9001 as a supporting service) is.
Is it only the intangible?
According to the "definition" it is generally intangible. It doesn't sound completely exclusive. :confused:

Repair seems to me to clearly be a serivce -- as in the ISO example (e.g. automobile to be repaired).

How about plating? Well, I could liken plating to painting an automobile, which I would consider a service (the paint value is much less than the labor value usually, so the labor would be the "dominant element").

Heat treating? I'd say it is "an activity performed on a customer-supplied tangible product", so again I'd say "service".

JMO of course.

Howste & Mike S.

Thanks for your help and direction in my quest to understand Service Provision. After reading 3.4.2 in 9000 I would tend to side with Mike S., when the process (typically out-sourced like Heat Treat & Plating) involves customer-supplied tangible product that there is a strong case for saying it is a service.

Doug

After re-reading my post, I disagree with myself. :rolleyes: Must have been one of those days...

Howste,

One of those days or not, I sure like reading your responses throughout the Forum!

Thanks,
Doug

Good question! Well, ISO 9000-2000, section 3.4.2. covers it. They list 4 product categories, services, software, hardware, and processed materials. If something contains more than 1 of the above, pick the "dominant element". It also says "service is ... generally intangible". There is lotsa text there, and I don't have the e-copy or I would cut and paste it for you. Maybe someone else does, or, if not and you need it, I'll type it all when I have more time.

I thought I got management to accept that re-sharpening customer tools is a service we provide and should include it in the scope of the QMS when we go for registration, when the ISO Management Rep. gets a periodic news-letter from a registrar (which we have been looking to contract) that equates service with the phrase "post delivery activities" in 7.2.1a) and 7.5.1f) [ISO-9001]. The registrar is going through all the manuals to ensure that there is a consistent rendering involving any exclusions to the scope of the QMS.

What is going on? Has someone some where in the ANAB or ISO come down with such an interpretation? If so, then are they also addressing Note 2 of 3.4.2 in ISO-9000?

Help!

Doug

I too had the same confusion (Banking Industry) regarding Product & Service
I think Product is what U sell and Service is how U sell it, so basically we go like "Product & Service" in all the cases.

I too had the same confusion (Banking Industry) regarding Product & Service
I think Product is what U sell and Service is how U sell it, so basically we go like "Product & Service" in all the cases.
I'd say 'Service' is what you do when things go wrong or problems arise.

I do NOT agree that "Service is how U sell it". That is Sales, not Service...

I'd say 'Service' is what you do when things go wrong or problems arise.

I do NOT agree that "Service is how U sell it". That is Sales, not Service...In my opinion, service also includes (in some cases) installation and routine maintenance. Today, many auto companies are including a provision to provide routine maintenance service for cars they sell, including the maintenance products like oil and transmission fluid.

Forty years ago, my gasoline service station also used to provide routine service like wiping windows, checking fluid levels, air pressure in tires, even, in some cases, vacuuming out debris off the floor of the car, in addition to filling my gas tank while I went inside and had a free cup of coffee while I waited to pay my big bill at $0.26/gallon!