I have the standrd in my hand Marc - are you ready?
4.1.1.2 Scope of quality objectives in the business plan. I think we are missing the boat here. Can anyone define?

I have to order a copy of 'the latest' to address these. I'm still with my old copy. Will order tomorrow and address these next week..

I think that having a Business Plan is not expressly requested in the new ISO/TS 16949:2002. Do you think that it could be anyway an indirect requirement derived from the requirement of planning quality?

I am afraid that it is a demand

5.4.1.1 Quality objectives — Supplemental
Top management shall define quality objectives and measurements that shall be included in the business plan and
used to deploy the quality policy.
NOTE Quality objectives should address customer expectations and be achievable within a defined time period.


5.6.1.1 Quality management system performance
These results shall be recorded to provide, as a minimum, evidence of the achievement of
- the quality objectives specified in the business plan, and

I actually had this conversation a day or so ago. Howard, you are right to an extent. 16949 does not explicitly say “the organization shall have a business plan”, but the two quotes you supplied indicate there is an expectation of a business plan. The first one: “shall be included in the business plan” is about as close as it gets. It would be impossible to meet this “shall” without a business plan. I don’t believe there is an “as applicable” attached to this. I would be interested to see how registrars are viewing this.

The two paragraphs quoted have been revised. Refer to the latest realease 03/01/2002. The new release states that quality objectives and measurements shall appear in a business plan. However a business plan is not a document that can be audited so it becomes a non-value added request. What the auditor will be interested in is the the results of quality objectives and the measurements taken. This per "Hank Gryn" at the rollout meeting.

These quotes were from the standard that I bought 2 weeks ago from ISO, are you telling us that it has changed again?
The copy I quoted from says 2002-03-01

Howard, I stand corrected. I must have went brain dead when I read your quotes.
However the remainder is excerpts from the discussion at the rollout meeting.
Sorry for the confusion.

I actually had this conversation a day or so ago. Howard, you are right to an extent. 16949 does not explicitly say “the organization shall have a business plan”, but the two quotes you supplied indicate there is an expectation of a business plan. The first one: “shall be included in the business plan” is about as close as it gets. It would be impossible to meet this “shall” without a business plan. I don’t believe there is an “as applicable” attached to this. I would be interested to see how registrars are viewing this.
Has the status on the requirement for a business plan stabilized?

Has the status on the requirement for a business plan stabilized?

Had this pop up in a TS upgrade audit for a client a few weeks ago. The auditor asked to see the business plan. We stated there was no document called a business plan, but rather the complete system, measurables, objectives, etc. equaled the business plan. The auditor insisted it had to be a document and was threatening a major NC. I was not allowed to participate in the audit (very strict about consultants being around, so I stayed off site). I told the client to make the auditor show her where in the standard it required a document. After several hours and calls back to the registrar technical manager, the auditor backed off. He interviewed the owner about his strategy, goals, plans, etc. Since he had a good plan in his head, it was accepted as the business plan.

It still ended up being a minor NC because the quality manual wording indicated that there was a formal document. Just changed the wording to correct it.

Has any one any thing more to add as a result of experience in audits.

In the IATF guidelines is the following

5.4.1.1 Quality objectives — Supplemental
Top management shall define quality objectives and measurements that shall be included in the business plan and used to deploy the quality policy.
NOTE Quality objectives should address customer expectations and be achievable within a defined time period.

Business plan: plan approved by executive management that contains goals, objectives and measurements for the organization, including those for quality.

The audit should verify that the organization has a process for creating, disseminating, and monitoring quality objectives in the business plan. This limits audit of the business plan to quality objectives.

· The objectives should be
· customer focused,
· derived from the business plan,
· stipulated and deployed,
· measurable,
· measured,
· used to facilitate an effective and efficient review by management,
· utilized for corrective action and continual improvement.

This tends to imply there should be an actual plan.
but
This limits audit of the business plan to quality objectives.
Thanks

We use our Hoshin to show how objectives are set and rolled out. They are monitored by a "State of the Business" brief held twice a year. The spring session shows what we accomplished to our goals from the prior year and a roll out of the new targets. The fall session gives us a status of the current year and a look at the developing objectives for upcoming year.

If I understand you show your connection of the objectives to the Business plan by the meetings.
They are not actually in the plan.

If I understand you show your connection of the objectives to the Business plan by the meetings.

We show status and roll out by the meetings, the actual "plan" is our Hoshin assignment sheets. The status of these objectives are reviewed monthly.

This pertains to the "Quality Objectives" only. The rest of our business plan is proprietary and not auditable. What these meetings show is the alignment between company, facility, business unit, and department objectives. The twice a year meetings are for the entire company. They are broken down into 4 presentations: Craftsmanship Verification Center, 1 at each manufacturing plant (2 facilities) and one for management.

Our Hoshin consists of:
Revenue, productivity, customer sat, employee sat, quality and safety.

This is from our 2003 Spring presentation.
AGENDA
Kickoff and Introductions – Ray Ridener
2002 Hoshin Review Business Objectives – John Lowery
Hoover Operations – Tim Sallade
Ford Business Unit – Scott Baker
Manufacturing Engineering – Steve Mortens
Berwyn Operations – Steve Guido
Glendale Operations – Ned Oliver
Safety and Facilities – Joseph Ganci
Continuous Improvement Discussion – James Morgan

Hello friends !

:applause: Good brainstorming by everyone. I agree with Marc that the Standard is explicit about the Business Plan and your quotes do support that contention.

However, if you have a document stating the vision and business strategy and it has not been given a name as BUSINESS PLAN, the Auditor ought to be sensible to accept the alternate given by the company under audit.

All the same why give rise to a confusion and reach a confrontation with the Auditor. Men (most auditors are) by nature are egoist and as such adament on what they say (even though they might be in agreement with you). Hence if the standard has mentioned Business Plan and if you have to do just this much to change the name from FINANCIAL STATEMENT TO BUSINESS PLAN, for heaven's sake just do it.

I think I have made a point, there is no point getting head on with the auditors and that too, the TS Auditors who has been given strong and sharp teeth to bite.

I agree with anandggp. It is always better to use the terms specified in the standard. After all the company is demonstrating the comliance to the standard, and changing any term might create confusion. Why do it, unless ofcourse there is a planned strategy to waste the time of the auditor in unproductive discussions?