Just received word from a friend that Ford yanked their Q1 over some bullstuff issue. The company president just notified Ford that if they did there would be no more shipments, that they will consider all Ford contracts void and will not accept any future Ford business.

Awaiting developments. Will let you know if (how quickly) Ford gives in.

What are they supplying Ford with? If they are not a sole source supplier I doubt Ford will "give in".

I'm not sure if they're sole source - I believe they are. I enjoy seeing, but have rarely seen (only once before), a company stand up and tell Ford to go fly a kite after being beaten up over some trivial issue. I can say the company's Q1 status was definitely revoked effective today.

I can't go into any specifics for obvious reasons, but according to my contact people at the company involved supposedly are cheering.

The company your friend works for may consider the items "trivial" but it is pretty obvious Ford does not. Without knowing the specifics it is hard to say. However if they are not a sole source supplier to Ford it may hurt them more than it does Ford espically if Ford is thier largest or one of their largest clients. Just some thoughts.
:bigwave:

Obviously, Ford is not the only (or even major) customer for this company. It would be interesting to see if Ford gives in ( and set a precedence?)

Atul Khandekar said:

Obviously, Ford is not the only (or even major) customer for this company. It would be interesting to see if Ford gives in ( and set a precedence?)

Atul, you assume that Ford is not their largest customer. I don't think Ford will give in, remember for every supplier that does not want fords business there are 50 more waiting in line to serve them.

I just have to ask what specifically was the noncomformance, Ford does not just arbitrarily yank Q1 unless there is a reason or ongoing deficiency.

Does anybody think that Ford would pull the Q1 unless they had another source?

More power to the owner that told Ford to kiss his A**, he obviously has other concerns that don't include Ford.

I think there is more to the story?:bigwave:

And I'm sure this person will blame it on the employees when comes time for the layoffs.

A few more details trickled in. Dispute was over a MMOG requirement which Ford originally verbally waived. Company has been Q1 since about 1991.

Sam said:

And I'm sure this person will blame it on the employees when comes time for the layoffs.

No - Ford is not the majority of their business so they can afford to say "....enough is enough..." so no layoffs (my, that was a serious note!). Bottom line to me is any company stupid enough to pin their fortunes on one or two accounts, especially automotive, are down right speculative and are high risk bets.

My delight is I have several clients who do Ford work. I've been to Ford supplier meetings on Rotunda (one of which I wrote here about in a thread and both Ford and Omnex let me know they knew with Ford 'talking to' one of my clients who knew what was happening so he said "And your point is?" to the Ford guy!). I've watched Ford cost these and other companies a small fortune (including paying for me...) over really stupid stuff. Then they want a price reduction.

But, Ford's financial picture is most telling. Couple that with Dan Reid admitting last winter that QS didn't show the savings they anticipated (which many of us predicted back in 1995) and his unbelieveable gall to blame the failure on the auditing, I just have to laugh out loud. I well remember the QS-9000 Interpretations. What was that one release - something like 45 pages of 'Interpretations'? Give me a break.

On the other hand I will say what I have said many times: If you want to dance with Ford, or any other huge, obnoxious company, you have to follow their lead and do as they say - right or wrong. So you deserve what you ask for.

The last thing in the world I would want to be (i.e.: you'd really have to pay me a lot of $) is a quality manager (much less a QE) at an automotive supplier because I'm not a masochist.

Dance with the devil and live with the devil. Otherwise, dance with many devils and drop those which you don't need.

Even without knowing details, I'd like to comment on the "trivial". Don't forget that Ford increased the number of STA auditors from 25 to 150 for Q1-2002 and these guys need to prove their reason for existing.
Keep us up to date on developments.

Hermann said:

Even without knowing details, I'd like to comment on the "trivial". Don't forget that Ford increased the number of STA auditors from 25 to 150 for Q1-2002 and these guys need to prove their reason for existing.
Keep us up to date on developments.

When did this take place?

My source says that it happened during last year following the Explorer/Firestone problem. STA was generally given more boot.

This all goes back to the control issue that I talked about.
http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4101

End of day yesterday Ford rescinded it's Q1 revocation pending a meeting by upper management from both companies tentatively scheduled for (get this) 'sometime' next month. Now, what does that infer?

Marc said:

End of day yesterday Ford rescinded it's Q1 revocation pending a meeting by upper management from both companies tentatively scheduled for (get this) 'sometime' next month. Now, what does that infer?

I don't know what does it infer?

Does it infer that Ford is "giving in" I highly doubt that, as I said before for every for every 0ne supplier that doesn't wants Fords business there are 50+ waiting in line. Does it infer that your friends company is maybe giving in, could be and maybe a month is needed before your friends company can fix what they messed up. Or maybe it infers that Ford is not as bad (the devil as I have seen it put) as people say they are and they are willing to work with your friends company and help them solve the problem.

What do you think it infers??

Skullskie what do you mean "wow what customer focus"?

Ford increased the number of STA auditors from 25 to 150 for Q1-2002 and these guys need to prove their reason for existing

I was at the meeting last year to kick off the Q1 2002 initiative (9-11-01 coincidence?) and again when we were targeted for the Q1 grilling. From what I have seen this year, they (Ford) are very serious about this, however, Purchasing/buyer has been given more say in the scoring for the supplier.

Yes they did increase the number of STA's, but the worse part of it is that these people are mostly right out of school. For those of you who don't remember or have never been through the "old way" of doing business with Ford, man your battle stations. The STA's make the registrar audits look like a walk in the park. We sat in a conference room for 3 days getting grilled, raked over the coals, etc. Our buyer was told not to attend and the STA sent had visited our company once before. It was brutal. Actually was asked "If your Quality Manager and Supervisor was killed getting out of their cars, how do I know I would get good product delivered?" I still have nightmares and that was in '96!
:eek:

To me it infers the standard power trip and that if they need it no standard matters - everything is negotiable. No the the company has not changed its stance on refusing to agree to Ford's terms. It may do so based upon a significant price increase as I understand their position, which I would expect.

You may doubt that Ford gave in. I don't know what else you call it when the STA who revoked the Q1 status is told by upper Ford management to reinstate the Q1 status, but I call it giving in.

I remember a few years ago - like 1997 - Ford required Intel and Motorola to obtain at least QS-9000 compliance and GM required registration. Motorola said OK and I made lotsa bucks. Intel said go fly a kite and - needless to say the QS-9000 requirement was dropped for Intel.

It sorta reminds me of the Fed Ex ISO registration and the RAB's 'exemption' for Fed Ex. Iffin youse is big enough, youse can dictate da terms.

Marc said:

To me it infers the standard power trip and that if they need it no standard matters - everything is negotiable. No the the company has not changed its stance on refusing to agree to Ford's terms. It may do so based upon a significant price increase as I understand their position, which I would expect.

You may doubt that Ford gave in. I don't know what else you call it when the STA who revoked the Q1 status is told by upper Ford management to reinstate the Q1 status, but I call it giving in.


Or maybe the STA was wrong in their judgement.

As I said before without specifics it is hard to tell what actually happened. I don't know how big your friends company is that supplies Ford or if they are a sole source supplier. If they are a sole source supplier that changes things. For some reason there is a lot of people who have ill feelings towards large companies like your Fords. If your friend wants to feel like he made Ford come crawling back thats fine. If we had the whole story maybe it would come out that Ford is being a nice guy and willing to work with thier supplier as should all companies. JMHO

I wonder how much of this could be related to the self-imposed reduction of the supplier base by the big 3?

I guess what comes around goes around. I know many companies that won't even complete an RFQ, and if they do they include such a margin that they hope they don't get the contract.

In the case of Ford, they should be thinking about avoiding financial ruin as opposed to screwing with the suppliers.

On the other end, the suppliers might want to worry that these companies will reverse their stance on outsourcing, bring the work back in-house, keep the unions happy, and produce what they want when they want with limited delivery delays.

Just a thought!

"It was brutal. Actually was asked "If your Quality Manager and Supervisor was killed getting out of their cars, how do I know I would get good product delivered?"

Randy S,
Sounds like something from a citizenship test; If the president and Vice president die, who becomes President?:D

I just like to see the little guy win once in a while. :thedeal:

I did not read all the reply's but I have to commit.

I am overjoyed that this company told Ford to take a leap. Wasn't QS-9000 suppost to replace Q-1 and so on.

From Automtoive News dated May 27, 2002. :thedeal:

Ford blames its suppliers of quality issues.

Great Caesar blames everyone but himself. When was the last time a vechicle price went down after shafting the supplier for 5 or 7%.

Ford needs to do a 6 panel on its self.
Root cause 1. Ford management does not know how to run a company. Bill is consumed with telling everyone he is as smart as Henry. :bonk:

Root cuase 2. Engineering Ford needs to either do ithe design correctly and get all the information out to the suppliers or let the suppliers do the design and choose the best one.

Root cause 3. Start dumping bad suppliers! Threat, Threat, Threat no action.

Root cause 4. STA's. Need trained in Quality, Manufacturing, Accounting etc. Some do not know what their jobs are. They no buz words. 6 sigma, DOE, etc. have no clue as to what they do!

Root cause 5. Bad Union!!

Root cause 6. Too many name brands!!!

I will stop, this could take all month

:truce:

Has anyone dealt with a Ford Q1 revokation under TS16949? To make a long story short, we were revoked for delivery performance on parts to Ford's service. We are notifying our registrar, and our understanding is we will go on probation due to Ford's complaint. We were zinged for late deliveries, no product quality issues. What we are having a hard time swallowing is that we are getting a "black eye" on our certification due to a company that is less than 1% of our business.

Is there any consideration given to volume? Does anyone have any past experiences with how registrars deal with this situation? :(

Most of our product ends up in Japanese product. And they don't care too much that we are TS certified. They just want us to meet their customer specifics. The Ford service problem was created primarily by us trying to deal with increased OE demand. Something fell short and the service was it. We are addressing the capacity issues we have.

Has anyone dealt with a Ford Q1 revokation under TS16949? To make a long story short, we were revoked for delivery performance on parts to Ford's service. We are notifying our registrar, and our understanding is we will go on probation due to Ford's complaint. We were zinged for late deliveries, no product quality issues. What we are having a hard time swallowing is that we are getting a "black eye" on our certification due to a company that is less than 1% of our business.


I'm still interested to hear about anyone else's experiences dealing with Ford on a Q1 revokation leading to a certificate probation. Is there any way to avoid the probation?

Thanks!!
Boots

We supply Ford with several million parts per month with little problem. We also supply the customer service division with a few hundred parts. One of our European plants is always having delivery performance problems which in theory could cause revokation but our STA prevents this escalating. The fault lies partly with Ford's ordering system.
The bottom line is that only your STA can decide, so he is the person who you have to explain to in detail what the problem was and how you can prevent reoccurance.

We have been supplying for a number of years, also. It's nowhere near the majority of our business. But until this, our facility had not had a problem. This is a first for us dealing with a possible cert. probation generated by a customer complaint. We have taken corrective actions and had started the process before the issue was raised by Ford.

Talk with your STA BEFORE you talk to your registrar. You will receive no mercy from the registrar.
Actually the process is "decertification process to ISO/Ts 16949:2002" and not "probation". Refer to annex 4 in the "rules".
With the Ford Q1 you will be required to show 6 months of "no problems" before Q1 is re-instated.

We read through it. Our understanding is that this does initiate the decertification process, but effective corrective action and accepted review by the registrar and Ford stops the decert.

One other thing to think about. Is Ford your only "TS" customer? In other words, should Ford drop you as a supplier, would you still be eligible for TS?

We're also Tier 1 to Chrysler. Since I posted the message, the decision was made by Ford not to revoke our Q1 status. :D (Our mgt and the Ford STA must have had a good meeting!) We did have 3 less than stellar months for service parts delivery, but apparently the years of being a good supplier did mean something afterall. Our "immature" data for August is much better.

It is still bothersome that something that is less than 1% of your business can jeopardize the certification.

Why go through all this trouble with only 1 percent of your business. What is your top management thinking. I would drop Ford when long-term contract is up or if they are just buying by individual purchase orders then start responding with "no bid".

Remember the old adage. Concentrate on the 20 percent of your business that makes 80 percent of your profit.

I agree, but the catch is that we have more Ford production business but very little Ford service. The ford service is 1%. Ford seperates Production deliveries from service deliveries in their measureables. We were hit on the service delivery rating. I think we have our act back together on it, so hopefully, we won't have this issue again.