Our company has detailed quality plans of how the various parts are produced with drawings. We have added a flow chart to the quality manual documenting the manufacturing process beginning with contract review ending in shipping. Are we required by ISO to have process maps for all the different departments?

:bonk:

J lean,
Ask yourself this question outwith the ISO standard, Regardless of the requirements of the standard, would it be advantageous (Profitable) for my organization to process map all processes throughout all departments?
Measure the need for process mapping by assessing departmental linkages, this will save you lots of time and stress.
Wallace.:evidence:

I wouldnt have thought it necessary to hav seperate departmental process maps so long as departmental responsibility is defined inthe overall map.

On our part we just one process mapping on our production department. :cool:

Vash

Hi j lean,

Are we required by ISO to have process maps for all the different departments?

I would say no. The idea is to map the processes, not departments.

Imho one of the major problem areas in any QMS is interaction between different departments. Mapping the processes instead would serve to clarify matters. They are what's keeping us alive anyway.

Let's say we have a process stretching over several departments: If you map this process only within a certain department, I think you're asking for trouble. It would take you right back to the department interaction problem.

/Claes

Exactly Claes.

Do not map departments - that is totally missing the point.

MAP PROCESSES.

I think process mapping is not a requirement from ISO9k:2K, but instead it is a just a tool to guide us.
Raffy

Raffy

It is a requirement to define in your quality manual your processes and their interaction.

Now this can be done in any way, however a process map is an ideal tool for this.

Raffy,

I agree with M Greenway. When I attended that Lead Auditor training course I had broght with me my draft of our new Quality Manual so I could make notes at night in my room while everything was fresh on my mind. While I was taking the test, one of the instructors for the course offered to review it and make suggestions. One of the first things he noticed and said I had to add was that I had not identified the interaction of the processes.

Since, I have add a very short and simple flow chart in my QM that identifies this.

Hope this helps.

Jamie

4.2.2c state that a quality manual shall include a description of the interaction between the processes of the quality management system. Does it mean that we have to map out the process from the start of customer requirement to product realization until customer satisfaction. That would mean a long mapping; wouldn't it?

we have been teaching process mapping as part of the tool box for auditing for years now.......

It makes sense. We used to call it a baseline flow for the DoD mil standard and used it to identify capabilities........I have been doing it so long, i think in flow charts.

I would say you should map processes but these may transend departments. Using deployment shart method of laying out the maps gives you and the users a better iea of how interactions occur. I use allCLEAR - it's fast and lays out the department responsibilities really well. It also allows changes to be made quickly and easily.

Wallace said:

Ask yourself this question outwith the ISO standard, Regardless of the requirements of the standard, would it be advantageous (Profitable) for my organization to process map all processes throughout all departments?

This excellent advice can be used in almost any situation! Well said my friend!:agree:

Hi, i'm new comer here. It's really great and exciting to see that there are a lot of ISO experts in this forum.

Refer to the topic discussed. I'm now preparing the EMS documents for ISO 14000. I also use the process mapping method for identifying the env. aspects in our organisation. I've asked all departments to come out with their own process flowchart to show the key activities in each department. In addition, they are also required to identify the inputs and outputs for each key activity as the base for identifying the potential aspects.

The procedure haven't applied to all department yet as our organisation decide to put effort in controlling the impacts in contruction operations (assumed as construction department) as our starting step. I still thinking of the effectiveness of using process mapping in all department, as this process is time consuming.

To me, these information are quite useful for the understanding of our organisation's operation. It also set as the base for us to reviewing the aspects by updating the relevant inputs, outputs as well as the activities.

So, do you think that shall i keep doing this?

Your advices are very much appreciated.

Thank you!!!:D

Hi Sir,
Originally quoted by M Greenaway:
"It is a requirement to define in your quality manual your processes and their interaction. "
I've read some of the previous threads that this came from Clause 4.2.2 of the ISO9K2K Standard. However, this implies confusion for me since, when we say process, are you referring to "Process Maps"? You know this could be debateable, sorry for asking, I'm just confused now :confused: and a bit frustrated :frust:
Does it mean also that a separate procedure for Process Mapping is a need? Please comment on this.
Is Process Maps same with Process Flowchart?
Thank you very much,
Raffy

Raffy

The standard says 'define your processes' but it doesnt mandate a method of how you do this.

However it is widely accepted that the 'best practice' method of defining a process is to create what is sometimes called a process map, or sometimes called a flowchart.

The differences between a flowchart and a process map are mainly that a process map has to define a process (obviously) and must show inputs, outputs, controls and mechanisms if one were to use the standard process model. Flowcharts do not necessarily do this, normally a flow chart will just define the process steps themselves and not show inoputs, outputs, etc. However a flowchart can be a process map if constructed correctly.

Hope this helps.

P.S. No you dont have to write a procedure on how to do process mapping.

Martin,

Would it be reasonable to say that if your processes have been in place for (20) years that they have been defined whether they were documented or not?

Best Regards,
Hank Fowler
:)

Yes Hank - custom and practice can 'define' a process.

And having read ISO9001:2000 again you only have to define the interaction between processes in your quality manual - not the processes themselves !

So documenting the processes in any shape or form is not mandatory in the standard.

Where does the word "define" come into play? The words I'm reading are "identify", "determine", and "description". Semantics? Of course. But do the words all mean the same?

Can you show "identification" without documentation? Can you show quality planning for the "planned results" for the "identified" process without documentation? (4.1 is the basis for my comments)
Can you provide quality planning for a process that you haven't documented? Simply by referring to the process in the quality plan you have "documented" it to an extent.

So I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Martin. I think that documentation of the "identified" processes absolutely must take place within the QMS in some shape or form. It's the whole basis for your QMS!

Yes Lucinda you are right when you say documentation in some shape or form, but not necessarily a single document describing a process from start to finish.

Does anyone have an example of how these process maps are to be constructed. Sure would appricate it.

We are a Steel Coil Processing Company. Some of our process's include Sales, Production, Receiving, Tension Leveling, Inspection, Slitting of Steel coils, and shipping.

Do I show one big process map for all of these processes????

Thanks
The Quality Rookie

If you look through http://Elsmar.com/Imp/ you will find a section on process mapping. It's not a big deal. It makes as much sense to call it process flow charting if the word mapping is confusing you.

Good representation! Thanks! And powerpoint no less!

A couple other representations, though quite a bit cruder and from another point of view, are:

http://Elsmar.com/Imp/sld033.htm
and http://Elsmar.com/Imp/sld037.htm
and http://Elsmar.com/Imp/sld039.htm

Just some thoughts... :thedeal:

From Jim Wade's split off post:

Marc - I also like your examples, particularly http://Elsmar.com/Imp/sld037.htm

Re that PPT example....

In practice, the Japanese company it represents (I have called them ZZ UK) use that simple diagram as the central icon in their management system.

Note: not QMS! The system is ISO 9001:2000 based but they, sensibly, avoid the devalued word 'quality'

Using Acrobat Readerand hyperlinks, users can click out from the central process picture to the rest of the system - including graphs of progress against objectives, procedures (they have a handful), forms and so on).

Just curious if anyone has a copy/template of the ISO 2k process flowchart from the standard.....e.g. Customer Requirements on the left of the circle and on the right was customer satisfaction on th right part of the circle with the elements of the in the circle?

I would save me a lot of time; rather than crafting a new one...

As always, the strong help the meek!

Thank you!!!:frust: :frust: :bonk: :bonk: :confused:

Jim....for some reason MS Outlook was not happy with you email address......could you post it here as an attachment?

Thank you for your time....

An example of process mapping bt HEINZ-WERNER ENGEL, 1998.
Regards,
Reinaldo Ramirez
Caracas, Venezuela:bigwave:

Originally quoted by M Greenaway:
"P.S. No you dont have to write a procedure on how to do process mapping."
Isn't is Document What You Do and Do What You Document? What if the auditor would ask me this kind of question? Where could I possibly defined it? In the Quality Manual? or on the General Process Specification?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
Raffy

Raffy

We stopped writing procedures for everything we do some 8-10 years ago.

ISO9001:2000 doesnt mandate a procedure for this so an auditor wouldnt ask for it.

Dont worry.

Does anyone have any recommendations regarding software for process mapping? I would like a package that is easy to use, easy to develope, and which could be developed to include six sigma etc.

Cheers

Max :smokin:

Any flow charting software will do - I prefer SmartDraw. Use a methodology like I outline in http://Elsmar.com/Imp/ and you'll do fine.

Regardless of what tool you use, remember flowcharting and process mapping (I was taught there was a difference) are just tools. How you use (or misuse) them determines their worth.

Just like FMEAs and the like. If you fill 'em out just to fill 'em out, they will be worth less than the time it takes to generate them. If you use the process of filling them out to fully understand your processes and how the processes tick, they will be invaluable! :thedeal: :smokin:

an excellent tool. I think in flowcharts. Needs to be in the auditor's tool box for sure.

I use Visio.........and am happy with it. Its drag and drop....and/or wizard based, talks to MS office nicely. Lots of good ones out there.

Jim Wade said:



Hi db

These two terms DO get thrown around and interchanged, don't they?

What's the difference in your opinion - both in appearance and in purpose?

rgds Jim

I won't say what I think about the reason, it's the flavor of the year thing, but the look, as explained at my latest seminar by AQS is this: Every block (process) has a series of inputs in the left and outputs on the right. Of course these maps were vertical and could be mutiple pages. I could do the same thing horizontally but it would get cluttered with my "puts". The advantage, as I see it, is that one starts to think about all the things that they need to do their job at that stage of the process map. Then they think about where their work goes. (their customer). In about 15 minutes per department, I only did two, my explanation of this method of creating a process map has yielded (2) Process maps that needed very little improvement. It appears that the Department Heads like the idea of showing how inportant their work is to the process.
So, a process map makes you think about the process block as a whole, while a flow chart process block is merely a step in the process that has it's input leading to it and it's output leaving it. JMHO, folks. I do know that our employees seem to like the Process Map idea better then the standard flow chart technique. Maybe it's easier to the layman. Don't know. Don't care. I'm starting to get them from different groups and that's all I care about. I'll finalize them in Visio, blend some together if possible and figure out how to release them as controlled documents. But, it's another step that I thought was going to be a giant hurdle.
:bonk: :ko: :smokin:

just like a procedure, you set the scope and purpose and format what ever you call it........both are a tool that can be used...you control the tool...the tool should not control you...****...even mix them...who cares if it does something for you or shows what you want it to.

what is the difference between a bread knife and a bagel cutter? Will the knife police come after you if you cut a bagel with a bread knife?

I typically do a baseline flow overview of key processes to complete a product. then I break them down by department (usually to see what work instructions/process spin offs may be needed) and sometimes even a task...what ever i need. i make the format meet my need,,,,if i need responsibility blocks i add them, if there are more than one output i add them..if i am doing "time/throughput" tracking i make it fit that need as well.

Am i just a simpleton? i don't get the confusion?

VISIO PROFESSIONAL IS THE BEST I HAVE EVER USED. IT'S INCREDIBLY POWERFUL BUT SO-O-O USER FRIENDLY.
GOOD LUCK !
:bigwave:

I have been given a trial CD from a firm called igrafx who are part of Corel.

They advertise various products including one which can be used as a six sigma tool using process mapping to evaluate process sigma.

Their basic package is very good, easy to use etc, the problem is that in order for me to buy the complete process package they want around $2000 :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :ca:

I don't rely want to spend this amount unless I can be confident it will work with my business (Manufacturing).

Are there any cheeper alternatives that include a six sigma function.

Thanks, Max

Sorry about the delay. I wanted to make a dramatic pause. Well, really, I was with customers and then took a 5 day weekend (no internet, computers, pagers or cell phones -- only me my fishing rod and four days of rain!)

Jim asked:

These two terms DO get thrown around and interchanged, don't they? What's the difference in your opinion - both in appearance and in purpose?


When working with a client and mapping their processes, I begin with a circle. On the left side, I list the obvious inputs, on the right, I list obvious outputs. Then, I add the points to the Cause and Effect diagram. We then begin listing all of the corresponding inputs from the CAED. It can be quite eye opening!

The process flow chart indicates the activities and decisions that occur during the process. This could be what goes in the center of the circle. The flow chart would show the steps in the process.

Both are different, because they look at different things. But they support each other.

Hope that helps.

Max, I used ABC Flowcharter from iGrafx for years. It worked well until I moved my OS from Win98 to Win2000 and found version 7.0 of ABC flow did not work under Win2000. So I got a trial disk from iGrafx and had major trouble converting my version 7.0 charts to their new "pro version". I finally gave up ... called iGrafx tech. support ... told them they lost a customer and then switched to VISIO.

Now, VISIO doesn't have a natural SixSigma interface, but it does a great job with flow/process charts. VISIO will also allow you to save your charts in JPG formats so you can send a picture of a chart to friends that don't have VISIO, but have Internet Explorer or a browser. VISIO also has a FREE viewer, so again your friends/co-workers don't have to have a VISIO license to view the charts you create (can't change them either).

Bottom line ... I am a former iGrafx user and don't recommend it for flow/process charts.

Please realize that all that is needed is microsoft Excel to do all the functions of any product develoment software. You can even import MS Project files.

:D

rrramirez said:

An example of process mapping bt HEINZ-WERNER ENGEL, 1998.
Good idea for ISO 14001 implementations.

I used to work with different software for flowcharting. As stated above Visio is very good, although recently I switched again to Flowcharter and found "swimlane charts" very useful.

but if dont try, you won't know what is good.

I am a current user of Igrafx Six Sigma product. It is not particularly user-friendly, inexpensive or well documented. It is, however, if you have the patience, powerful. It will allow you to not only constructs process maps or flow charts or flow diagrams or whatever you want to call them, it will also allow you to model them and then run the model so that you can determine cycle times and rates of nonconformance, among other things. It will also dump its output into Minitab where you can analyze the numbers to your hearts content, including designed experiments.
Marc Richardson

Recently I have found a product called ProcesGuide from QPR (www.qpr.com). I am testing a trial version now, but it seems really nice. You can create diagrams of different types. You can also published it on the web, and it really works.

QPR also offers a tool for Balanced Scorecard, that is also very good.
Regards
Sebastian

It's been a while since anyone voted in this thread - just thought I'd bump the thread up for visibility and for any new 'visions' / opinions.

An overall process map of your organization is enough. Too many process would only result too many requirements which were not a requirement by the new standard.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Raffy

Raffy

Beware that your focus on requirements of the standard blinds you to the requirements of your business.

Process mapping is a useful tool if the requirements of your business includes continual improvement.

I got into this discussion kind of late, but I agree with some of the earlier comments about which software works best. I have found that Visio is an excellent tool for flowcharting. It has to be one of the most user-friendly computer products I have ever used. :D

Another software package which I had used in the past (but is no longer supported by my company's IT department) is Micrografx Flowcharter... It's almost as easy to use as Visio and has a couple nice features which let you do a process walkthrough of certain types of their flowcharts - a step by step walkthrough of the decision tree.

Of the many other flowcharting programs I have tested over the years, the above two stand out as the best of the best.

PS: We use flowcharts to supplement our quality system documents... in everything from our quality manual to the lower tier documents such as forms, exhibits, and work instructions.

This is a perfect example of a valueless poll.

First, there is no real definition of what the poll creator meant by process mapping. There are many different methods for "process mapping", e.g. different flowcharting techniques, value streams, etc. One person might find one method excellent, and another a waste. IT IS TOO GENERAL A QUESTION.

Second, there are only two choices. If someone felt there was some merit to (what he views as) process mapping, he could not fairly answer "excellent" or "waste".

It does, however, promote discussion.

This is a perfect example of a valueless poll.

First, there is no real definition of what the poll creator meant by process mapping. There are many different methods for "process mapping", e.g. different flowcharting techniques, value streams, etc. One person might find one method excellent, and another a waste. IT IS TOO GENERAL A QUESTION.

Second, there are only two choices. If someone felt there was some merit to (what he views as) process mapping, he could not fairly answer "excellent" or "waste".

It does, however, promote discussion.

:caution: While I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions, Rob, sometimes there are better ways to phrase them. Even I am guilty of not wording my thoughts properly from time-to-time...but calling this poll valueless is somewhat harsh, isn't it? :truce:

Your last statement "It does, however, promote discussion." seems to contract the level of value you've placed on this poll.

Personally, while I find the results of polls interesting, the real fascinating and beneficial information is contained within the discussion. The poll serves as a kind of "foot-in-the-door" to us...peaks our curiousity...prompts us to read on....and sometimes even contribute.

Roxane,

...calling this poll valueless is somewhat harsh, isn't it?... Personally, while I find the results of polls interesting, the real fascinating and beneficial information is contained within the discussion.

Good point. I repent in dust and ashes. I too find the discussions the polls elicit highly informative.

My comments came shortly after dealing with some mis-uses of statistical data on the floor. Arghh, I brought that mood into the forum. :o

Statistics and Polling data can, however (by themselves, with no productive side discussions like we have here) easily be spun to mislead people.

One study showed that Ice Cream Cones caused Heat Strokes. They did a correlation anaylsis comparing ice cream cone sales at the beach with the number of heats strokes for the same summer. As one rose, the other rose. (A third factor, temperature, evidently was not considered).

With a little more thought, polls can be constructed to yield much greater accuracy in the results. I was a bit harsh though. :truce:

My comments came shortly after dealing with some mis-uses of statistical data on the floor. Arghh, I brought that mood into the forum.

Oh no...admitting you're human! :mg:

Statistics and Polling data can, however (by themselves, with no productive side discussions like we have here) easily be spun to mislead people.

One study showed that Ice Cream Cones caused Heat Strokes. They did a correlation anaylsis comparing ice cream cone sales at the beach with the number of heats strokes for the same summer. As one rose, the other rose. (A third factor, temperature, evidently was not considered).

Once again proving that the numbers will scream whatever you want if you torture them enough.

With a little more thought, polls can be constructed to yield much greater accuracy in the results.

Totally agree! :agree:

Oh no...admitting you're human! :mg:

You're reading my mind again Roxy! Must be the Force at work! :lmao:

Well, My opinion, even if process mapping is not a stated requirement in the ISO9001:2000 but its an excellent tool for clearing the interaction between "processes" and so "departments".. here is my task that i am working on right now since two days at my work on the way to get the ISO9000 implemented:

the task is originally assigned to me by my manager, the GM is to understand every single process, step, interaction and data transaction in the whole factory"not too big factory" and then start working with the flowcharts and the procedures and all...

now i thought ..... what about a tour with the organization chart!get a big sheet stick it to the wall, divid it to dotted boxes, title each box with a department's name... Walk through the factory with engineers and supervisors.. write down what they do,get thier documented procedures, a copy of thier forms an dthier comments and all what i can get.. go back to my wall... draw the flow "and keep the details later!" each one in his departments box... now while i am writing this reply i see this sheet... with about 15% almost done .... in the warehouse box, there are four flowcharts ... parallel to each others, linked with some lines "data flows and documents and process change" and these flow charts are linked together with the QC, Production,Purchasing,Planning,Sales departments through the main boxes that indicates each department...

I cant even tell,,, its making me feel i have the whole factory in my pocket.. great understanding for the whole work and all interactions between PROCESSES AND DEPARTMENTS.. once this finishes.. i think i will be finished with my next two tasks on the way to get the system running!

I hope i get your opinion about this...and even if i am doing any wrong, i will be happy to be corrected... and lets see if this reflects on the importance of process mapping

best regards for all
Tanahy

Well, My opinion, even if process mapping is not a stated requirement in the ISO9001:2000 but its an excellent tool for clearing the interaction between "processes" and so "departments".. here is my task that i am working on right now since two days at my work on the way to get the ISO9000 implemented:

the task is originally assigned to me by my manager, the GM is to understand every single process, step, interaction and data transaction in the whole factory"not too big factory" and then start working with the flowcharts and the procedures and all...

now i thought ..... what about a tour with the organization chart!get a big sheet stick it to the wall, divid it to dotted boxes, title each box with a department's name... Walk through the factory with engineers and supervisors.. write down what they do,get thier documented procedures, a copy of thier forms an dthier comments and all what i can get.. go back to my wall... draw the flow "and keep the details later!" each one in his departments box... now while i am writing this reply i see this sheet... with about 15% almost done .... in the warehouse box, there are four flowcharts ... parallel to each others, linked with some lines "data flows and documents and process change" and these flow charts are linked together with the QC, Production,Purchasing,Planning,Sales departments through the main boxes that indicates each department...

I cant even tell,,, its making me feel i have the whole factory in my pocket.. great understanding for the whole work and all interactions between PROCESSES AND DEPARTMENTS.. once this finishes.. i think i will be finished with my next two tasks on the way to get the system running!

I hope i get your opinion about this...and even if i am doing any wrong, i will be happy to be corrected... and lets see if this reflects on the importance of process mapping

best regards for all
Tanahy

It sounds terrific to me. I liked hearing your satisfaction with the method. That's very important because I get the feeling you have high standards.

:applause:

It sounds terrific to me. I liked hearing your satisfaction with the method. That's very important because I get the feeling you have high standards.

:applause:

Thanks Jennifer,
I am almost done with the big flowchart(s), I had a tour again in the whole factory yesterday, Imagined myself a bag of raw material "sugar ofcourse" :) and started moving with the flow, i felt i am moving inside the arrows of the flowchart and being hit by each test and every single step and being recorded on each document in the flow,that was terrific,I am so happy this way and feel i can so easily move to the NEXT step and i am sure i will need this sheet stuck on my wall all the project and it will always get updated and modified till the project is finished ! well, so yeah, my advice, its is not a requirement by the standards... but one of the best ways i could imagine to help you melt in process
Tanahy

I love process maps/flow charts. They are a easy quick referal as to the ongoing status of a product. They are a great training tool. When you have a new employee or transfered worker you can easily indentify the work to be performed at each station, inspection required and acceptance criteria. They can also identify the acceptance criteria for internal components supplied by other departments, (input/output).

CORRECT

You must define your processes and their interaction.

How you do it is up to you.

I use process control plans and flow charts. They are wonderful tools.

Yes , I can accept your opinion. the whole process mapping is necessary.

This old thread was bumped up today when somebody voted in the poll. As one previous poster questioned, what is the purpose of the poll?

After going through the whole thread, I realized that the poll could have been used to measure/indicate an important aspect - the acceptance of process maps over time. I believe that during the transition from the old ISO version, many were still used to the clause/departments approach and they think that process maps are a waste of time. 7 years later, things should have changed.

Unfortunately, there are no periodic summaries of the poll results to indicate anything. I am thus recording the first summary: 9th October 2007

Excellent tool - 81%
Waste of time - 19%

After going through the whole thread, I realized that the poll could have been used to measure/indicate an important aspect - the acceptance of process maps over time. I believe that during the transition from the old ISO version, many were still used to the clause/departments approach and they think that process maps are a waste of time. 7 years later, things should have changed.



I hope there has been progress....I am sure there are many who have adopted process approach and has seen the benfits....The problem is some people don't know how to use process maps or don't have time. Process maps are done to please auditors and customers.... We all like the concept of PDCA. Not many looks at the adequacy of planning activities.

I encourage my clients to align their processes with PDCA. Recently, I was helping one of them to construct a process map for production. After finishing the planning phase that contained capacity requirement planning, scheduling, and PM, my client started adding shortage material disposition in "Do" phase ...added requesting for quotation from suppliers, placing PO with the winners, etc......as an acceptable common process!!!! :mad::frust:I questioned why don't you set a system to assure that production is not stopped due to material shortage? The response was: "we don't have time" Too much planning will slow down our system.
I looked at their on time delivery data and they were delinquent more than 60%.

Is this client going to use a process map?:confused:

Is this client going to use a process map?

The sooner he starts to bleed (meaning his business facing financial crisis), the earlier he will wake up from that denial stage.