Here's a question.

I have an audit in a week (a week today). I have issued corrective actions to middle management and told upper management SEVERAL times about several issues. Nothing has been done. In the past, I have done some nice "Cover Ups". Nothing over the top out of line, just stepped in and done something that was someone elses responsbility only to save myself the hassle later of trying to explain it. However, this time I've decided, forget it. It's all very clear what they are all responsible for and they just aren't doing it. I am not a kindergarten teacher. Is anyone else in this kind of position? I'm just getting so fed up. I can over see the system but I can't run the whole bloody thing by myself!!!:mad: :(

I can't decide whether I should ball my eyes out or go postal. Decisions, decisions....:ko:

Help me.... or at least call the loony bin for me....

Remember the QMS is everyones system not just yours. Responsibility is a hard pill to take. If they want babysitters they need to look at your salary. $100 per week per child in my area. Responsibility by all.

Wow.. You seem to be on fire today ;). I think most of us have been in similar situations.

Yes, I have stepped in and fixed things that was someone elses responsibility. The only result was that it was considered my responsibility from then on.. Ouch...

Yes, I have sometimes after lots of nagging, coaxing and reminding decided to "Forget it" and let things run their course. One word of advice though: I assume you have done your nagging in writing and kept copies, or it may backfire: You know... "Why was I not informed?"

As for the looney bin, I have a feeling that most of us are halfway there from time to time...

Best of luck... / Claes

Claes Gefvenberg said:
One word of advice though: I assume you have done your nagging in writing and kept copies, or it may backfire: You know... "Why was I not informed?"



Claes I agree you should always document to CYA, however, no matter how much documentation you show them and show them how many times you reminded them they will always have an excuse or look to pass the blame. I guess that is one thing you have to learn to live with being in QA, is that when something goes wrong or does not get done it will always be QA's fault. Remember QA is "overhead" in most companies if not all (and I agree with that for the most part, but thats a different posting). I have also heard "well why didn't you follw up with me on this", as they sit there with a stack of e-mails you sent them on the subject. One thing I have discovered being in QA is that my job is very similar to that of a Kindergarten teacher or a babysitter, you have to treat the managers as over grown children, they "make money" for the company so they will always have the backing of Upper management. Until Upper Management sees how much money these problems are causing them to lose through lost business or fines then you have to take the lumps. JMHO

As far as going postal or bawling your eyes out, I say give me a gat and let me loose! J/k of course! Chin up Fire you will make it through.:)

I bet most of us can say "Been there, Done that". With this transition I've also taken that approach. All need to own it for it to be effective.

If one person does all the work and hands them process outlines, procedures, fixes their corrective actioins, etc...(fill in with most anything) it is an ugly cycle that will only end when you stop enabling!

This step is also frustrating and full of potholes, but keep your responses consistant and don't waiver (even if it does seem easier to just take care of it yourself). I'll keep my fingers crossed that you'll be more sucessful than me.

I'm fighting similar problems, even written RCAs on Corp support systems that have gone unanswered. This is further $%#% by site mgmt not forcing the issues with corporate management...I can only presume (well, maybe I should say I choose to presume this) they don't want to ruffle feathers and screw up possible future opportunities for themselves. QA Mgr even leaves some info out of mgmt rev mtg that is suppose to document this...so I just keep copies of e-mails that I send out.

Hence my recent determination to freelance... Gee, rereading this post and hate to see myself bit@$ and moan. You've all heard enough and a number are in similar boats. I'll make an effort not to do it again.

E Wall said:


.....This step is also frustrating and full of potholes, but keep your responses consistant and don't waiver .......


I think this is a very important point. No matter how much they squirm, keep politely hammering away at the basic point. It's their problem and they have to fix it.

James

E Wall said:

This step is also frustrating and full of potholes, but keep your responses consistant and don't waiver (leaves some info out of mgmt rev mtg that is suppose to document this...so I just keep copies of e-mails that I send out.

.......

Hence my recent determination to freelance... Gee, rereading this post and hate to see myself bit@$ and moan. You've all heard enough and a number are in similar boats. I'll make an effort not to do it again.
But Eileen... We enjoy your bit@$ and moaning.. We all do it every now and then here in the Cove. Then we can pull ourselves together and keep going in our real lives...

I think we all need to vent our frustration sometime. At least around here people will understand what's it all about.

Oh btw: Good luck with your freelance venture.

/Claes

Fire,

I've been there, too. You see by now you are not alone -- h*ll, you may be in the majority! I think you are right on. Sometimes it is easier on you and the system to do others' jobs for them, but there comes times when it is not easier or in the best interest of the company long-term for you to cover for them. In cases like this, do what you're doing -- let the audit expose them and hopefully they will catch **** for it. As others have said, though, CYA:ca: very well. Then, have a drink and let things unfold.

Mike S.

Fully agree,

Document the activities and let the chips fall where they may. I'm sure it will raise a few eyebrows. As said before, this is a team effort.

It's all part of being in QA. My boss, the QA manager, got called on the carpet for things not addressed by others. Naturally he comes down on me. I handed him copies of the eight e-mails I sent him on the subject, along with 24 that went to the responsible department and which he was a CC. He claimed he was "blindsided" because I didn't "explain" it to him.:frust:

Actually, when the dust settled, it all worked out. It involved the final release of product to ship. As a result of the fiasco the GM assigned a certain Quality Engineer :bigwave: the final authority to approve shipment. All problems which could not be fixed to be brought directly to him. Have not had a problem with the last six tools.

Dearest Warrior Princess: So, you picked a bad week to quit smokin’ ? The Looney bin is one option. However, the food is bland and the uniforms are wrinkled. Plus, they’re yellow. Eeeee-gad ! Now, please understand that you are in the MAJORITY. We all have gone through this and some in addition to you still are AS WE SPEAK. Take a deep breath. You are NOT alone. Welcome to the land of QA, or codependency, as I like to call it. Take another breath and chew on the reality of the options I’ve taken in the past. 1) If you have covered yourself as you say (and I am sure you have), show it one last time, to your boss, explaining the effects of this apathy at audit time. I am sure that not only will C/A have a poor performance, but what about this lackadaisical attitude spilling into Mgmt Commitment, the Quality Policy, etc. Then, when they don’t respond (and I feel they won’t), present the facts to the audit team. Plain and simple. See what happens. The last time I knew that an audit team was coming and that they would uncover (easily) that the Mgmt Team didn’t give a shi% about compliance, I called a recruiter and here I am in NY. The thought of fabricating and covering up an ineffective system for certification purposes for the remainder of my working life was far too much for me to handle. Being solely responsible for an entire system? Check please. Or, 2). Get out of QA. I see it never getting to the level that it should be. So far, I’ve been lucky enough to find another a company that, at least right now, is delivering more than lip service about its commitment. But, there are too few out there and I would expect to be finding another vocational “opportunity” in the next few years, due to the mockery that our culture has made out of Quality and ISO. What a shame, but don’t take it personal. You’ve done more than you should have and I applaud YOUR commitment. SMILE and hang in there ! Now, go pour yourself a big Martini or the world’s largest Blue and I wish you the best of luck.

“Quality is job 1” to “Quality- only when it’s convenient”. What a travesty.


:bonk: :rolleyes: :truce: :bigwave:

KenS,

So how do you really feel about working for a person that will take the title of the job but not back up those behind them.

This is one reason that I think the Management Rep/Auditor needs to work for the top guy in the organization. Otherwise there is a system perfectly set up for the abuse that you have related.

At one time I was naive and as an inspector was told to throw away some truck mud flaps by the Manufacturing Manager. At a later meeting I was dressed down for throwing away parts that could have been salvaged. The Manufacturing manager was at the table and did not say a word other than his statement that these "quality people" needed to be leashed in.

That was my learning experience for going into the world of Quality.

If I want to be a foot step then I will be, and expect associated leadership, if I want to be an integral part of the corporation I will stand up to be counted and not give so much as an inch!!!!!

Could I be fired, Oh well, happened before, will happen again.:bigwave:

Hi guys!!

Thanks for making me not feel like I'm the only MR in the world that works for people who don't.:)

Perhaps they may be some truth to Jim's idea of they just don't know what the heck to do.

Are you showing leadership by properly analysing the causes of YOUR problem?

Are you meaning this with a bit of sarcasm? ie. It's MY problem so I should fix it. They themselves don't have a problem with it? That could be part of it too I guess.

I think they have a hard time seeing the big picture. If they look out the windows into the shop and see production down- big problem. But they fail to see how design guy screwing up on regular basis really causes them any grief, you know what I mean. I can look a seemingly small problem and picture the gigantic snowball careening down the mountain!!

It just seems that for at least the past year, anytime something wasn't being done, the only way I could assure that it would be done was to oversee it directly myself. Now I've got so much bloody stuff to do sometimes it's ridiculous!

Thanks again all!

FG:bonk: :frust: :bonk:

Did a search on responsibility (from MSN Search on the web) and came up with this quote that I thought was appropriate:

"In order to make up one's mind to be responsible for things it is necessary to get over the idea that one is being forced into responsibility."

This could easily be expanded to include:
"One should either accept it willingly or resign the position to another who will!"

That leaves the question yet to be begged....Why won't folks perform tasks they are responsible for?

I guess someone would make a mint on it if we could not only figure it out, but come up with an effective solution!
:bigwave:

I think we have all been there.
My advice is shock tactics.
Send out a memeo that you predict that the management will take a non conformance on Management commitment and you cannot be responsible, as said before it is everyones system.
Take a hit and then see what they say.
This can be effective.

Jim & Howard,

I think both of you have raised valid points. There is a time and a place for everything, and the actual situation must dictate the course of action.

I usually lean in favour of Jims "role model" approach (Let it hereby be known that I don't always manage to live up to it :o), but someday, sometime one may have to use the "shock tactics" suggested by Howard.

I have noticed that when you habitually try to be cooperative and generally nice (Ugh... hard work) people tend to come to the conclusion that you're a pushover, and act accordingly...

/Claes

I like the idea of looking properly at your CA process, and finding the root cause of your problem of lack of management support.

It may be that the CA's are trivial - in which case you need to look at your audit process and see how you can align audit findings with real business issues.

Or it may be that the manager perceives the audit findings as trivial, in which case you need to report them more effectively (i.e. aligned with real business issues).

Or it may be that the manager couldnt care less - in which case take him outside and kick him up the @rse. :vfunny:

Or you may be overloading the CA system by insisting on a CA for every single occurrence - in which case perform a Pareto (or is it Pereto ?) analysis and concentrate on the big issues.

Fire Girl,

As you can see, you are not alone.

It boils down to "Management Commitment". It seems the fire goes out and enthusiasm dies when the Registration Certificate is hung in the foyer, only to briefly revive the day before the compliance audit.

Now that i am old myself, I understand the saying of one of my mentors many years ago, "we grow so soon old and so late smart."

That's just the way it is.....

Sorry!

M, you are so right.

CA/PA is foreign to so many managers....they don't get it. they think its useless paperwork that they don't have time for. They don't see the value.......and that can be because the system doesn't reflect the need of the company. I say revamp it with their guideance so that they will feel responsible for it.

Write a CA (LOL) to the CA system and the responsible management team....for being ineffective to cover yourself.......as MR you recognize that the system isn't working, and needs to be addressed globaly at management review.

There are more ways to run an effective CA/PA program than filling out a tedious CAR form, a multi teired program works best for me...One that spans the whole gambet..from a simple action item log out of all meetings (even informal production meetings....AND forms a part of the internal communication requirement for the new 9k2k) and management review actions....to a full 8D, guideance on how to choose and the rules..........and a central location to hold the records.

CA/PA drives the system, if that doesn't work you don't have much of a system....IMHO

First time posting here so be gentle with me...
In my experience, people will place things in a low priority status unless the perceive either a benefit for doing them or a consequence for not doing them. We seem to be focusing on the consequences side of the equation. Have you tried getting the group to see the benefits of taking action?
I think that this represents an opportunity to use the tools to improve the process.
First, as has been pointed out, call a final meeting of all the recalcitrant players and inform them of the potential consequences of not clearing up their action items and the benefits of taking care of them. Show them the stack of unanswered emails before the audit, not after.
Next, ask the group to come up with the reasons they have not completed their action items. I would ask them to write them down on sticky notes. Then I would make an affinity diagram and categorize the reasons that were generated. After everyone had a chance to review and discuss the reasons given, ask them to generate more reasons and post them in the appropriate category. Then review the diagram one last time to eliminate redundant reasons and combine similar reasons.
Finally, say something to the effect that "Now that we have identified all the reasons why we, as an organization, find it difficult to close our internal audit action items, what are we going to do about it?"
Of course, there is a danger that this could turn into a session to vent and make excuses, but I think that calling everyone together as a group will create some peer pressure against that. It also casts you as a solution seeker, instead of in the role of pointing fingers after the fact and saying "I told you so."
Just my thoughts,
Marc Richardson

Pretty neat, Marc...

The only problem is that they may say "I don't have the time for that", or simply skip the meeting.

But I like your setup...

/Claes

I can appreicate something from each of the posts above. The "right" actions to take are certainly somewhat dependent on the culture of the company and your position in the company as QM. With that caveat...

However, let's not forget why Fire is so da*m frustrated: We're dealing with middle and upper-level MANAGERS who are continually failing to do their jobs despite repeated reminders and (probably) offers of help from Fire. I have to assume ISO would not exist there if TOP management had not decided, for whatever reasons, to implement it, which everyone knows requires effort from more than just one person. I'll bet most, if not all, of the guilty are "higher-up" the corporate ladder and make more bucks than Fire. But she's stuck babysitting them, begging, pleading, giving one more "last warning" for them to do their job (and has in the past done theirjobs for them). I'd have no problem with Fire saying enough of this bull*hit right now and letting the chips fall where they may with no further pleading and reminding on her part. Why now, after the decision to implement and maintain ISO has already been made by TOP management, should she continue to have to justify over and over again what is required and plead with those who are supposedly her "superiors" to get them to do their jobs?

Hey, everyone slips-up now and then and makes a mistake or forgets something. No problem -- I do it myself sometimes. But from my understanding we're not talking about honest mistakes, people who need help but can't get it, occasional forgetfulness, or something innocent like that here. Maybe its time to stop coddling and enabling the bad behavior of these so-called Managers and let their failures show. Fire, in MHO, has already gone above and beyond the required dilligence.

Feeling a bit cranky today...

Mike S.

[QUOTE] Fire Girl said:

Here's a question.

I have an audit in a week (a week today). I have issued corrective actions to middle management and told upper management SEVERAL times about several issues. Nothing has been done. In the past, I have done some nice "Cover Ups". Nothing over the top out of line, just stepped in and done something that was someone elses responsbility only to save myself the hassle later of trying to explain it. However, this time I've decided, forget it.


Yes, any quality manager has been in this position at one time or another. At some point, everyone has to decide whether it is more important to be right or to be employed. Only you can decide that for yourself. I took that stand and became unemployed, but surprisingly my stress level went down, and I found a better job. Going postal is not a bad idea though, surprised we don't hear more quality people doing it. Maybe we're to smart to get caught. Hang in there, I would sure hire you!:thedeal:

Dawn,

Never forget that your company pays the auditor.
You would have to have made a total balls up of the whole thing not to get through.
No jumping on your sword, you're paid to get things fixed and improve them, not blab to the auditor.
You're a professional - your anticipate and steer.

You didn't mention if this was an initial full evaluation, or a periodic surveillance audit, but either way, don't panic.

PS1 - you know where the gaps are, band-aid as many as possible. Raise Corrective Action on others - at least the auditor know you know and are doing something about it - hopefully.

PS2 - Don't whinge too loud to your management, as they may turn around at the end of it all and ask what the big deal was about. You know better than anyone whether the problems will affect certification or not - that should govern your actions at this late date.

ALTERNATIVELY:

B-O-U-R-B-A-N

I am so pleased with the response to this post! You guys have posted some great stuff!

I took yesterday off because I was so sick. It was nice to be in a semi state of consciousness, high on Neo Citrin. People can keep their high priced illegal narcotics- over the counter stuff is enough for me!!!!;)

So, I am mostly back. I am not worried about losing my job. I do my job well, as well as the job of the QA Mgr, and several others. This is kind of my point. I hate stuff not being done, or done right. I would rather step in and do it. But it seems the more I do it, the more I have to do it. Nobody ever wants to take responsibility for anything. I can't be responsible for everything. I spoke to management about this at the last meeting. I told them I don't mind facilitating things, but I can't do it all! Our QA Mgr left a few months ago and they still haven't replaced her, so I'm kind of filling in that position.

No jumping on your sword, you're paid to get things fixed and improve them, not blab to the auditor.
I know I get paid to get these things fixed, sort of. I think I get paid to make sure other people fix them. I can make suggestions (and I usually do) but I don't feel that it is my responsibility to fix all the problems. I hate nagging people, but if I don't things don't get done. I definitely feel this is largely a management issue.

[QUOTE] Jim Wade said:
When colleagues don't do what we want, rather than giving up or taking confrontive action, we have the option to look, as you say, for the reasons/causes for their lack of action or disinterest. This is simple good practice. Presumably we preach it, but we must also practice it.

I like your emphasis on benefits. That's key. We must know what benefits will be of value to the people we are trying to get to act.

Why should we expect them to do stuff just because WE think it's important? What makes (or would make) it important for THEM?
__________________________
Maybe I'm taking some of these posts wrong, or maybe after a crappy week I'm just being grumpy, but it seems the tone of many of these posts (not just Jim's) suggests Fire needs to do more handholding and babysitting -- needs to show these higher-ups why they should do their job, why ISO is important, etc. etc. Lots of emphasis on Fire doing more, more, more, when she's already doing several jobs at once but not so much emphasis on the people who aren't doing their jobs doing them. I don't get it.

Of course diplomacy, tact, helpfulness, encouragement, explaining reasons/benefits, value, etc. etc. is the first and even second course to take in this situation but she's DONE THAT already and, as so often happens, she has gotten taken advantage of for her efforts. Fire doesn't seem like an unreasonable bit*ch looking for trouble or someone who has not tried her darndest to make it work. It's been all one-sided from what I see. When is enough enough? Everyone has to do things that they might not like to do and/or agree with at times. I don't like doing some of the financial reporting and corporate paperwork that I have to do, but I voice an opinion, and if I'm overruled, I get over it and do the work because it is part of my job as defined by my superiors and not because someone held my hand over and over again and tried to explain why it was, after all, "important to ME". It ain't all fun and games -- that's why we call it work! Maybe some of these ISO/QMS activities fall into this category for the people at Fire's company, but too bad. Get over it and do it! And shame on the Top Dog if he's not supporting her on this.

Some of you guys (us guys) can get pretty snippy and feisty pretty quickly here in the Cove, so I have to wonder if everyone has really been so tolerant and understanding and patient and willing to handhold in their own experiences in the past, or if a bit of hipocracy is not creeping in here.

I don't mean to insult anyone here, honest. But really, I think there's way too much emphasis on what else Fire can do and not enough on the slackers. JMHO

Mike S.

mike...in theory you are correct, but in the real world...the one where everyone is wearing a dozen "lean" hats......people assign their priorities and the quality system stuff tends to drop down the list until it means something personally. SO in order to move it up the list again, the MR needs to provide the motivation so that the appropriate people take responsibility. Too many take the easier route and do it themselves.

driving responsibility is a management tool...and manage is what the MR does, isn't it?

Jim Wade said:
....My firm runs sales training workshops for Quality Managers to help them better present their case to management - ......

rgds Jim
Now, *There's* a good idea. Most of us can find room for improvement in that respect. (I've been on about that before, so I won't ramble...)

/Claes

Hi Barb,

You said "mike...in theory you are correct, but in the real world...".

First, I don't work in theory too much. I've been on the "real-world" front lines of quality for over 14 years, many of them "lean" years. As of today I wear 2 major "hats" and a few minor fill-in ones. So I'm not coming from some theoretical, academic, or utopian world. Maybe your "real" world is just different than mine. That's okay.

You say "the MR needs to provide the motivation so that the appropriate people take responsibility".

If the only substantive "motivation" (recall the thread on that term!) to follow the QMS comes from the MR/QM the company is in major trouble with their QMS. Of course we need to provide some of it sure, but we're way too low on the ladder to do the bulk of it (motivation) ourselves. We do what we can, but we can't do it all.

You also said "driving responsibility is a management tool...and manage is what the MR does, isn't it".

Yes, we MR's/QM's do manage. Most of us do it pretty well. But what the heck are those other supposed "managers" or "leaders" doing? Wasn't Fire managing as best as could be expected (from what we can read)? Doesn't ISO itself, as well as most so-called QMS experts (both those working in "theory" and "the real world") , preach constantly the need for "top management" committment? So why are the thread writers not crying out about that lack of "TOP MANAGEMENT" committment here? Do they get a free pass? Remember how our buddy Energy AND his consultant was handcuffed and making little progress for a long while until the new "Sheriff" showed-up and "motivated" some people? I don't think that both our outspoken, motivated Energy and his consultant were both guilty of not "providing motivation" or "driving responsibility" or explaining the importance of things to the best of their abilities, yet until the new "Sheriff" (read Top Management committment)came along, things were dragging badly.

Maybe we have to agree to disagree on this one. That's okay. Peace and have a good holiday.

:truce:

Mike S.

[QUOTE] Jim Wade said:


There are other basic skills that many QMs lack, One is effective communication;
__________________
Nuh-uh, nuh-uh. Take it back or I'm gonna stomp my feet and throw a hissy and cry!

Mike S.:p

each company has its own set of issues

I agree the management team needs to drive the QMS commitment, absolutely, but one of the team should be the leader and that is typically assigned to the MR. Even the president typically relys on the MR to advise and guide him/her. if the MR doesn't have that authority, then that person is probably the wrong choice or wasn't communucated properly to the team. My comments were based on that assumption. I have lived in both worlds for nearly 30 years.

:truce:

Hi guys!

I'm here at work on a freakin' Sunday! I should be home fighting off black flies and working on my yard. But I still hate to fail!!

I spoke to one of the top guys on Friday before I left. I informed him that I am not running around busting my *** helping people of choose not to help themselves. If people are just lazy and won't do what they are supposed to be doing, what else can I do. I have written corrective actions and they are not really being dealt with. I have actually spoken to the plant mgr specifically about a situation that is still not being dealt with. I don't have the authority to fire anyone (lucky for most of these employees!!). I have tried every approach known to man. I have tried the friendly coaching approach, I have tried the angry screaming approach. I got nowhere. So really, what do you do? I personally think we need some fresh blood in here to wake things up. If I start some people fresh, they won't know any other way of doing things. Who knows! Perhaps I should just find another job and move on.

If anyone knows the secret to this game, please share with the group.

Thanks everyone!

FG

Hi guys!

I'm here at work on a freakin' Sunday! I should be home fighting off black flies and working on my yard. But I still hate to fail!!

I spoke to one of the top guys on Friday before I left. I informed him that I am not running around busting my *** helping people of choose not to help themselves. If people are just lazy and won't do what they are supposed to be doing, what else can I do. I have written corrective actions and they are not really being dealt with. I have actually spoken to the plant mgr specifically about a situation that is still not being dealt with. I don't have the authority to fire anyone (lucky for most of these employees!!). I have tried every approach known to man. I have tried the friendly coaching approach, I have tried the angry screaming approach. I got nowhere. So really, what do you do? I personally think we need some fresh blood in here to wake things up. If I start some people fresh, they won't know any other way of doing things. Who knows! Perhaps I should just find another job and move on.

If anyone knows the secret to this game, please share with the group.

Thanks everyone!

FG:frust:

Jim...good points

Fire Girl said:

Hi guys!


I have tried every approach known to man. I have tried the friendly coaching approach, I have tried the angry screaming approach. I got nowhere. So really, what do you do? I personally think we need some fresh blood in here to wake things up. If I start some people fresh, they won't know any other way of doing things. Who knows! Perhaps I should just find another job and move on.

If anyone knows the secret to this game, please share with the group.

Thanks everyone!

FG:frust:

Fg,
There is no secret. Just the day to day routine of the Quality Professional. People object to the "Q" word, but it's the word that every body turns to when the sh*t turns sour. Fact of life. Maybe it IS time for a new career. This will never change. Just remember, the grass always looks greener until you step over the fence and slide around in your boots.:vfunny: :smokin:

Quote from Jim:

"What sort of business downside has there been because of this causal analysis work not being done? For example, how much business has been lost? what unnecessary cost has occurred? what value in credit notes has been raised? has anybody been injured? have you lost a customer?"

I think Jim makes a fine point here. Upper management is frequently promoted beyond their intelligence, but if there is one thing they all agree on, it's money. Talk about motivation! If you have someone who isn't doing their job, tailor your response to their inaction to show how it is costing the company money. Sometimes showing how MUCH they are flushing can be VERY effective. It's clear that a QMS will eventually fall apart and fade away without management support and that support can be quite strong when they realize the alternative will affect their bottom line. And, in some cases, their bottoms!

Fire Girl said:

I have tried every approach known to man. I have tried the friendly coaching approach, I have tried the angry screaming approach. I got nowhere. So really, what do you do? I personally think we need some fresh blood in here to wake things up. If I start some people fresh, they won't know any other way of doing things. Who knows! Perhaps I should just find another job and move on.

If anyone knows the secret to this game, please share with the group.

Thanks everyone!

FG:frust:


Fire Girl,
How I handled avoiding this type of problem is when I mapped our organization chart I created a dotted line form my position to that of our top manager. Per clause 5.5.2.b of the ISO Standard which states “Top management shall appoint a member of management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority that includes ….. b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement….

In our Corrective Action and Preventive Action documented procedure I made the following statement, in a clause called “Action and Verification”:

1. The Department Manager assigned for taking action must respond, by the due date. Extensions of the due date will be granted if justified. Copies of overdue CAR’s are given to the General Manager for intervention.

So far no one wishes to butt heads with our General Manager and if they ever do at least I’ll have it documented that our General Manager was aware of the problem.

Jim Webb - Not a bad idea! It still requires the GM to be supportive, though.

Fire -- There are no secrets to this game -- at least no more so than one of the "secrets" to winning lots of baseball games is having more good players on your team than the other teams do. Those who don't have to beg, plead, cajole others in their companies to do things they are supposed to do don't have any "secrets" you haven't tried -- they have a better cast of co-workers than you do. Maybe part of that is culture set by Top Management, maybe some of it is luck, among other variables.

However, IMHO, I doubt many (if any) of the experts in the Cove would have any better luck than you're having with your problem if they were in your shoes.

Mike S.

One placed that I worked at, we had a QS coordinator who got sick for the 3 days prior to the audit. This person would then use that as the reason for the C/A's still being open. It worked!! Of course we also paid the registrar an extra $25,000.00 a year to pass us!

This is why the quality systems fail. When management does not support it.

We all feel for your position.

Fire,

I'd appreciate if you could answer Jim Wade's questions regarding what the real or potential costs/business downsides of these incomplete CA's are. This seems to be Jim's argument as to why, possibly, you've gotten so little support.

However, even if this is the case (i.e. if Management sees addressing the CA's as not being worth the effort or cost effective) I still say Management is derelict in their duties for not having the decency, courtesy, and management skills to sit down with you and explain their position and work out a compromise that is suitable to all instead of just ignoring your continued pleas for help thereby leaving you flapping in the wind and stressed-out. Is this the way good management should work -- ignore your employees/co-Managers if they are on the wrong track or they come up with ideas you don't agree with? Not where I come from.

Mike S.

Jim Wade said:

1
What is the business downside that, presumably, has happened, is happening or is about to happen, because of management's behavior? Or is this all about fear of a 'nonconformity' that they (perhaps correctly) could care less about?

2
Are the managers trained and skilled - and supported by their management - in using the tools and techniques necessary to find and eliminate root causes?

rgds Jim


This same company! A former Quality Manager was put in charge at the Vice President level. Three manufacturing sites.
He's new plan to get managers informed "Each staff manager was to take an Internal Auditing class and preform 1 audit. Time frame for them to complete task 18 months to 36 months. Not a good plan at all, from someone who should no better. :bonk:

The quality system needs to be part of each managers preformance evaluation. This is why assocaites with no authority are responsible.

Answer to number 2 is, it is need to be in each managers/supervisors job discription and preformance review. Until they are required to be accountable, nothing will change.

Fire Girl said:

Hi guys!

I'm here at work on a freakin' Sunday! I should be home fighting off black flies and working on my yard. But I still hate to fail!!

I spoke to one of the top guys on Friday before I left. I informed him that I am not running around busting my *** helping people of choose not to help themselves. If people are just lazy and won't do what they are supposed to be doing, what else can I do. I have written corrective actions and they are not really being dealt with. I have actually spoken to the plant mgr specifically about a situation that is still not being dealt with. I don't have the authority to fire anyone (lucky for most of these employees!!). I have tried every approach known to man. I have tried the friendly coaching approach, I have tried the angry screaming approach. I got nowhere. So really, what do you do? I personally think we need some fresh blood in here to wake things up. If I start some people fresh, they won't know any other way of doing things. Who knows! Perhaps I should just find another job and move on.

If anyone knows the secret to this game, please share with the group.

Thanks everyone!

FG


Firegirl,

As others have said, there really isn't any great secret to "the game", just plain old slogging. Based on everything I have read here it may just be that it is time to pack up your bags and get out.
Certainly there are things that we can do to help the system perform. But our purpose should be to coach, train, inform, and document. It should not be picking up after professional "children" who should know better.
Do what you can to cover your back, and let the chips fall. who knows, maybe it will get some conversations going and you can resolve some of the issues.

Good luck Girl. We're all pullin for ya.

James

Of course I too have deal with this problem of mgmt responsibility. It should be added to the CQE! Anyway, I have a different perspective which may prove helpful.

Everyone in management (including QA Mgrs) do what they are reinforced to do by their boss. Look honestly at your internal culture and the specific personalities on your management team. What do they reinforce? Is it getting parts out the door? Some homemade measureables? Perhaps your company is very engineering focused and they reinforce problem solving?

You have to understand what mangement is being measured on. Based on this you need to develop a strategy for getting the executive team to evaluate and monitor the responsibilities you are trying to elevate.

In my company the quality steering committe is an excellent avenue for elevating corrective actions and putting it on everyones radar screen. But as I said, every company is unique and you need to understand what works in your culture.

Helpful?

At one time in my career I was an optimist. If I could only show these misguided fools how helpful this quality stuff is, they would look at me like I am their saving grace.

Life is much simpler than that. I do what my boss wants me to do. Especially in this new age of downsizing. Dont take this to mean that I have lost my business or moral compass. I have not. What I mean is, I learned the "rules of my company" and focus my staff and organization on the elements which I believe are the right thing to do.

Bottom line - If you want managers to complete corrective actions get your executive staff to tell everyone that this is important and create a medium where they can monitor progress on a regular, scheduled basis. ISO9000 already designed the system to work this way. Thats why companies have steering committees comprised of the executive staff. Thats why you review corrective actions in this forum!

To light the fire...
First, put a managers name on the corrective action, then show his boss in the review that he isnt getting it done.
Second, hold your executive staff's feet to the fire either directly in the review or get the third party auditor to light the fire.

There may be exceptions where this doesnt work, but it should work in most situations.

-Steve.

I posted earlier in this thread concerning an incident that provoked the approval of a procedure covering release for shipment. A procedure I had been trying to get through for some time.

Yesterday it was the normal "D**N THE PROCEDURES, SHIP IT OUT!" that caused me to send out an e-mail referring to the procedure being violated and containing the following line. "Please inform me upon what authority teardown and shipment has commenced."

Within 30 seconds all had stopped, the QA concerns were addressed, and then teardown/shipment restarted. Even without the support of my boss (the QA Manager) things can work out.;)

Jim Wade said:
1
What is the business downside that, presumably, has happened, is happening or is about to happen, because of management's behavior? Or is this all about fear of a 'nonconformity' that they (perhaps correctly) could care less about?

2
Are the managers trained and skilled - and supported by their management - in using the tools and techniques necessary to find and eliminate root causes?

rgds Jim

One of the things I have learned is to be careful what you document as a formal corrective action. It is a good idea to at least bounce these things off the boss to make sure he agrees something should be formally issued. Many times, the quality people feel they need to issue a formal corrective action for everything, and they end up causing themselves more grief. If you can get buyin up front, your more likely to get issues resolved. Don't create a huge papertrail if it is not really important.:bonk:

KenS said:

I posted earlier in this thread concerning an incident that provoked the approval of a procedure covering release for shipment. A procedure I had been trying to get through for some time.

Yesterday it was the normal "D**N THE PROCEDURES, SHIP IT OUT!" that caused me to send out an e-mail referring to the procedure being violated and containing the following line. "Please inform me upon what authority teardown and shipment has commenced."

Within 30 seconds all had stopped, the QA concerns were addressed, and then teardown/shipment restarted. Even without the support of my boss (the QA Manager) things can work out.;)

KenS,
How right you are. Many times we have had issues where the inspector rejects a part only to be told, "Well 'Soandso' said it would be OK". Our response is," well you get Soandso to sign for it because I won't. As you can imagine, the problem gets fixed, because old Soandso is real lenient until it's his name signing the paper.

Several good points have been made in the last few posts. the culture is the thing. You have to learn it. Find the ways it works, and the ways it doesn't. Define the personalities you are dealing with and who will help or hinder your efforts. You have to work with what you've got.
However, if the culture is of the "Good ole boy - we've always done it this way and never got caught- that quality thing is just a joke - the boss knows it and so do we - we've gotten rid of other toublemakers before" type, you may be better off just packing your bags and hauling your behind out of there. Before they do get caught.

James

FG, It's the 31st of May ... How did the audit go?

Well, I am pleased to say that we did quite well on the audit- surprisingly.

I came into work at 4am on audit day. I just kind of organized books, etc. The Plant Manager tried to fix the design stuff- I told him not to. Oh! The day before the audit, the design punk asked me to sit down and go through his books because he didn't think they were very good. He also thought maybe the procedures should be changed again. I told him it was his problem- I had my own job to do.

So I sat in while the auditor questioned him. If he was any further out in left field he'd be playing tennis!!!! Not a clue!! He has been in this business for like 10- 15 years. He has been trained and brags to everyone how smart he is. If I had not been in the room there would have been some major crashing and burning. I should have let him flop in there but I just couldn't sit back. My bad.

So we got one minor and two opportunities for improvement. Not too shabby. There had better be some MAJOR changes now. Everyone wait while I hold my breath....

Thanks!!

Fire Girl:biglaugh: :ko: :biglaugh:

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. If your people are like ours here the reaction will be just the opposite unless someone higher up actually witnessed your manuvering to save the day. Most likely reaction I think you'll see:
"Hey we only got one finding, so obviously things are okay...you're just overreacting."

I hope for you that I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just jaded from my own experiences...Best of luck!

E Wall said:

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. If your people are like ours here the reaction will be just the opposite unless someone higher up actually witnessed your manuvering to save the day. Most likely reaction I think you'll see:
"Hey we only got one finding, so obviously things are okay...you're just overreacting."

I hope for you that I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just jaded from my own experiences...Best of luck!

On the money. And, if there had been a major, it would have still been FG's fault because that's why she's there (as viewed by Mgt). The responsibility for anything bad would be yours and the because it was of a minor nature, they think you were worrying for nothing. Never changes. Never will. That's why it's imperative that you document all your suggestions, concerns, gripes, etc.. When the time comes for the blame game, produce the evidence that you tried to address the issue. Good job, Fire Girl!
:ko: :smokin:

FG, Unfortunately I have to Ditto Ditto with Energy and E Wall. The ultimate attention getter will be the loss of the registration, bit that's bad for all the hard working employees (like yourself) that really try to live by following the processes.

Makes you wonder if this is such a common reaction (and I agree it is) then how come the outside auditors don't write-up top management more often? Is this a major finding or not? Seems like most of us QA/MRs that responded on this thread have a similar problem as FG, why don't the registration auditors see it? Or is it that they see it ... but they don't want to write it up (i.e. nobody wants to get rid of customers).

MrPhish,

I hear what you are saying, and agree that your point about writing up top management. We have had some other threads recently that took the approach that if a registrar doesn't perform to your satisfaction, you should change them. After all they are a supplier to you. So here we see the curnundrum. A registrar who is easy on the company, may actually be harder on the QM/MR and be more desructive than one who is tough. However the one who is tough runs a greater risk of being dumped because of it. I know I am oversimplifying by not addressing audito competance etc. but it is another piece of the puzzle.

I can just imagine FG, or any of us, going into our boss after an audit and saying, "we need to change our registrar.
"Why?, the boss replys, " we just passed with only one relatively minor finding."
FG resonds, "That's just it. There should have been at least 3 findings and two of those should have been majors against managment."
The boss looks up incredulously and says............................

I can't continue this converstation, it's just tooooooo depressing.

Firegirl. Congratuations on the successful audit. You hang in there and keep swinging. And if you need to move on, I know of an opening in Australia.....

James

MrPhish said:
Makes you wonder if this is such a common reaction (and I agree it is) then how come the outside auditors don't write-up top management more often? Is this a major finding or not? Seems like most of us QA/MRs that responded on this thread have a similar problem as FG, why don't the registration auditors see it? Or is it that they see it ... but they don't want to write it up (i.e. nobody wants to get rid of customers).

Oh, I think they see it, but I have yet to see our registrar put pressure on top management.

/Claes

Jim Wade said:

However - maybe we should feel for the managers' position, also. There are still [at least] two unanswered questions which might color our advice:

1
What is the business downside that, presumably, has happened, is happening or is about to happen, because of management's behavior? Or is this all about fear of a 'nonconformity' that they (perhaps correctly) could care less about?

2
Are the managers trained and skilled - and supported by their management - in using the tools and techniques necessary to find and eliminate root causes?



Question #1
I don't think it is so much that they don't care about the problem, but more that they would rather not deal with it. Upon further investigation (my own) it seems this is largely a personnel issue. Other employees are fed up with this worker because he continually does not do his job. The downside you ask? The downside is that frequently he passes off his severely messed up design jobs to other personnel. He is supposed to be training the other workers and he doesn't know what he is doing himself. It looks like it is a bigger mess than I realized!

Question #2
This is a very small company. The owner and his son are upper mgmt and then there is the plant mgr. He has a lot of mngmt experience and he is good at problem solving. If I had to guess, I would say that he does not get a lot of support from upper management. That would be his biggest problem and likely why things aren't dealt with. He knows what the problem is and what needs to be done but not much backing to do it. Get it?

The more people I talk to, the more I think this is fairly standard. Management does not want to deal with problems because of bad vibes. I would rather deal with everything out in the open. But I'm not the personnel manager so.....

FG:

You can lead an engineer (horse) to a quality system (water) but you can't make him follow (drink) it.

The owners will react according to their personality and their comfort level - avoiding the confrontation. It really boils down to the top dog(s) avoiding the confrontation with the company 'clown'. We all have a company clown.

I really liked the visualizatiion of the 'snowball coming down the mountain', yes that is how all of us QA people think!

Perhaps identifying a cost in time spent to process, track, follow up, and work on, vs. a cost to company in defective product, recalls, delays, customer dissatisfaction would be beneficial.

Take the 30,000 ft view on the company's bottom line of product, and profits. Research the beginnings of the snowball, and demonstrate the end result of the avalanche cost to the company.

"the lack of... has resulted in customer complaints...failure to deliver on time...engineering re-work took xxx hours last month..." and attach a dollar figure to it, based on shop labour rates. Certainly not a simple exercise.

Money always lights up an owners eyes, and while the eyes are open, make sure that the root cause appears!

Their problem now. :bonk:

(insert picture of clown with noose around neck...)