Hi all

Has ISO9001:2000 made any of you guys re-think your audit schedule ?

If so - how, and if not - why not ?

Martin, I'm not sure why it should. I do believe we need to re-think HOW we audit, and that might cause us to change our schedule (assuming the change to auditing by process). What are you trying to get at????

Although it has not caused me to re-think the schedule, I believe that we all still have to have both system and process/product audit schedules.

The system audits of course would have less frequency than the process/product audits. Process/products are where we should put the most effort as they are generally more cost effective and provide actionable results in a timely manner.

MHO

Hmmm interesting question. Yeah with 9K2K we figure we don't need to do internal audits anymore so we have scrapped scheduling them altogether, since the company I work for is perfect and we see no value added from doing them. We called our registrar and said hey we don’t need to do internal audits, continual improvement, or have a quality manual and we gave our justification and they certified us. “Hey, nice weather we are having”.

Of course it has not caused us to re-think our audit schedule, we are still required to do them based on status and importance. I will still do they audits in a process approach as I have in the past, and the frequency will all depend on how that particular area of the company is doing. The one difference is now I can audit the QA dept. and tear them apart as long as I do not audit what I am responsible for.

you asked the question M.Greenaway, what do you say?

I am always rethinking the audit schedules/plans/programs...continuous improvement?

:biglaugh:

Seriously, to be effective you should always be rethinking the schedule. What works today doesn't necessarily work tomorrow, priorities change and the audit schedule needs to keep up with them.

If you are thinking of the "process approach" stuff then what needs to be addresses is how were you auditing, what was covered? Is it still effective? Does it still meet the requirements? Everyone needs to look at the facts, then adjust what doesn't make sense. For my clients, I don't need any changes...but looking at some companies I audit they need MEGA changes, some don't...but even the ones I see that need changes, always needed them...I never thought they were using the audit program to their advantage/CI...but sometimes my hands were tied by the shalls and I had to allow it.

. What works today doesn't necessarily work tomorrow, priorities change and the audit schedule needs to keep up with them.

Excellent Barb! I would also like to add (if I may) that even if it does work, there may be a better way tomorrow.:smokin:

in auditing there is always a better way.....:lick:

especially now that Randy has passed QMS-LA!:thedeal:

I did not re-schedule my audit cycle or change the number of audits I currently perform, but I did “open-up” the ole’ flexibility window by updating my Audit Plan with the following frequency/schedule statement:

"On a yearly basis, a minimum of two (2) internal audits are to be conducted with at least one (1) surveillance audit conducted in between. At a minimum, these internal audits are to be conducted so that all required audit reports are completed (i.e. audit results documented) a minimum of two (2) weeks prior to any scheduled surveillance audit."

Of course an audit can still be conducted whenever required (i.e. more than 2), I still accomplish the same number of audits per year (i.e. 4 … 2 internal and 2 surveillance), but most importantly I won’t get written up anymore for delaying an audit (for any valid business reason) and forgetting to update that %$#@*& schedule.

Well what I was originally thinking with this question was that companies I have worked for have constructed the audit schedule around departmental activities, or departments themselves.

With the new process approach should we be auditing our processes ?

If so would this be any change ?

Or would this approach only be a significant change to companies that constructed and audit schedule around 1994 clauses ?

An assessor once suggested to me a 'themed annual audit plan' for ISO 9K2K.

That is to plan the audit around departments and audit their processes with a view to looking at the theme for that particular year's audit . Now this theme has to be one of the eight Q Man principles.

So for example, you audit a dept's processes keeping in mind continual improvement, or mutually beneficial supplier rekationships.

At the time, it sounded good, but I never got round to implementing it.

Good job too, because on thinking about it, I don't think this themed approach would work at all.

By this reckoning, it would take eight years to complete all of the QM principles.

Hmm!:bonk:

My thoughts too Laura. Focussing your audits on a certain element of the standard excludes all the rest of it, and theming them on one of the eight management principles is quite bizarre in my mind.

Hello All
Prior to 9001:2000 we had a very rigid schedule, blindly checking all departments across all of our sites every year. The audits were totally ISO compliance based and weren't adding any value. Since taking over the QM role and achieveing 9001:2000 I made some signficant changes, we now have three level of internal audit:

1) Compliance assessment. Each functional area (process) will be formally checked at least once during the lifetime of the certification against our procedures and processes and the ISO standard.
2) Effectiveness assessment. Each project or process will be checked as required (although in practice around every six months at the moment) for things such as, effective and efficient implementation of the processes, opportunities for continual improvement, capability of the processes, trend analysis, effective and efficient use of resources, improvement activities, or process and product performance results and expectations. This also has the effect of spot checking against the process/ISO.
3) Spot checks, requests, etc

These are scheduled to dovetail with our surveillance visits.

This are adding value and making my job as QM and auditor much easier, eg, level 2 and 3 can be done at my desk or by phone.

The audit process is a tool for improvement to sustain and improve our business and customer satisfaction, not to tell us we aren't doing x or following y from a certain document.

Any help?
Adam

Tell me how an 'audit for improvement' would work, and how you would determine effectiveness in your audits.

Adam said, " This are adding value and making my job as QM and auditor much easier, eg, level 2 and 3 can be done at my desk or by phone."

Since you mentioned that you have already achieved 9001:2000 registration I assume by your statement that your registrar accepts the fact that you conduct level 2 and level 3 audits from your desk or phone? He/She does not require you to perform a so-called "normal" audit by face-to-face interview? How about schedules? Do you identify what you are going to audit before you perform the audit, or do you "just do it" and let the results guide you and follow the flow?

I have always beleived that an audit is an independant review of the process or product ... and how the info is gathered (i.e. personnel interviews, reveiwing reports, data or information) is irrelevant ... as long as the results provide meaningful information to help identify problems so they can be fixed and to identify what works well so improvements can be made. Keep it simple.

Here's another radical thought ...

How about performing what would be called "a continuous audit/review." On a whenever schedule ( i.e. as appropriate)employees are interviewed, data/information is reviewed (attending meetings etc.), ideas are discussed, measurements are taken, surveys are conducted, etc.. Notes are kept by each auditor on a running log type entry. Once every 3 or 4 months (maybe 6) each auditor reviews their own log and formats the data into a summary type report and submits it to the Management Rep. Is this method in accordance with 8.2.2? Doesn't this method perform the real purpose of an audit ... to find issues and improve the system?