I have found out about a willful case of circumvention of our Control of Nonconforming Product procedure and the standard itself. Here's the scenario. A problem was found with a dimension out of tolerance, yet those in charge of MRB let this baby go (functionality mindset) even without keeping them seperate throughout the rest of the production process. So they got mixed up with good parts and now we have several thousand parts returned to check through. They also have left no paper trail for these nonconforming parts, which is directly contrary to our or I would think anyone's procedures, and definitely the ISO standard. After finding out all I can and these facts hold true, can anyone think of a reason why I shouldn't send a Nonconformance to the members of the MRB who failed to follow proper procedure?

In one word: No...

Judging from the facts given, a nonconformance should be the least of the MRB's worries. It's not only contrary to the standard. It's also contrary to both common sense and buisness sense.

/Claes

I think Claes is right-on. The ONLY possible reason I could think of not to do it is if I knew the MRB guys were a hopeless bunch of renegades and they would get by with it and my boss was in there and would fire me for doing it. Then I would KNOW, if I didn't before, I had to get out of that company. I'd drop the NC and only stay there 'till I could get another job, then scram, ASAP!

I quite agree that the MRB needs a non-conformance written.

How you handle this is going to be very important.

How long has the board been operating?
What is the track record of the board in the past?
How committed are they?

I will assume that they are not a bunch of idiots and already know that they screwed up royally. BUT do they know how badly they screwed up?

Do they know how much this has cost the company?

I suggest doing a cost analysis of the rejection and sorting as compared to other options available to MRB at the time. This way when looking at future decisions they will have greater understanding of the potential costs of their decisions.

This of course is part and parcel of your corrective action cycle to close the NC you've written.

JMHO

James

If you proceed to write up the MRB Board, tread carefully. Usually, they are upper managers who will not appreciate seeing that they willfully concealed defective product in writing. Also, results of Audits are available to External Auditors. Not a good thing, exposing cases of misconduct to others. :( Maybe I'm just a scaredy cat because I've seen too many times where the blame falls on those who least deserve it. Even though they can prove they aren't responsible. The key here is "prove to who?" That stuff truly rolls downhill. We all know the old saying about winning the battle and losing the war. Take a step back, a deep breath and give it some more thought. JMHO :ko: :smokin:

Issue the CAR. And let them know that for many registrars that intentionally shipping N/C product without a Deviation could result in suspension of the QMS registration not to mention possible lawsuit. Let us know what happens

Well thanks for all the response. I jumped in and wrote it up, so I'm waiting for the fallout now. I'm afraid I couldn't feel good about the job I'm doing if I let that one pass. Maybe I just take my job too seriously, but that's what I'm paid to do. No the MRB guys aren't a bunch of idiots, just too "functional" oriented sometimes. They realize they really blew it on this one, and they are taking a lot of heat from the VP. Then from me:bonk:

I hate to pour salt on the wound, but I figured I just might get some changes made if I took advantage of this opportunity to show them the error of their ways. I know it happens more than I see so their not fooling me there.

gpainter said:

Issue the CAR. And let them know that for many registrars that intentionally shipping N/C product without a Deviation could result in suspension of the QMS registration not to mention possible lawsuit. Let us know what happens

If they are registered, then I agree with it. If not, you don't have the "They could pull your certification" to use. All you have is your job to lose. I'm not saying to let it go. If the CEO is not on the MRB, he can do something about it. Pride comith before the fall. What you would do is not always the best advice to give. Your options may be many, as opposed to someone who has none.

:ko: :smokin:

Russ said:

I hate to pour salt on the wound, but I figured I just might get some changes made if I took advantage of this opportunity to show them the error of their ways. I know it happens more than I see so their not fooling me there.

So now you have their attention, and intend to use the opportunity to get some changes made. I'd say you're right on track. If the dust settles in the right places this mishap may turn out to your great advantage.

Good luck.

/Claes

We're having computer system problems, so I hope this goes thru okay, I gotta make it quick. Energy's post got me thinking that I engaged my typing hand before fully engaging my brain and explaining things out. What I would do would depend somewhat on the status of my QMS (registered or not, new or established registration, etc.) and the culture of the place. One way or the other, unless raising a stink would cost me my job before I was ready (see earlier post), I would want to see the MRB guys held accountable, otherwise things can get really out of hand. I've been there! Maybe, rather than documenting it formally so any customer or registration auditor could easily find it, possibly costing a customer or registration, depending on the culture, dragging the MRB before the head honcho for a little talk session would accomplish the goal with out costing the company bigger $ than already lost. You don't want to cut off your nose to spite your face. If the top dog is supportive, a "stern lecture" from him/her in private may be the best way to go. Again, it depends.

You are right in sending the CAR, whether registered or not. I just got done being a witness in a multi-level case over deliberate shipment of nonconforming product. The product was released in that case by the President/Owner. The legal basis of the case was that by stepping outside the documented procedures the owner stepped outside the corporate veil and incurred personal liability. The case was settled to the tune of several million.

KenS said:

You are right in sending the CAR, whether registered or not. I just got done being a witness in a multi-level case over deliberate shipment of nonconforming product. The product was released in that case by the President/Owner. The legal basis of the case was that by stepping outside the documented procedures the owner stepped outside the corporate veil and incurred personal liability. The case was settled to the tune of several million.

Ken,

Can't argue with your advice except to say that it's very unusual for that to happen. What was your involvement? Did you write a CAR prior to the Lawsuit? Was there a whistle blower? How was the President bagged? How did this deliberate thing become public knowledge? Would you have been culpable? A Customer would have to have absolute proof before initiating litigation. Was the Quality Group on the hook originally and had the data to back up their position? Just asking.:ko: :smokin:

To make a long story short, I was consulting for a small manufacturer that actually made the parts. The drawing called for 1117 material, his customer supplied 12L14 for the job. This was also reflected on a revised RFQ and the PO. I had my client keep a copy of all documents (which he lost) and kept a copy myself in the client's file, I had bad feelings about this. When the bolts reached the final customer and were installed they discovered breaking problems. Company A sued Company B who sued Company C who sued the company I consulted for. All suits were combined.

I got called in as the first witness by the lawyer for Company D, since I had the copies of the documents. The lawyer for Company A had me declared an expert witness in the field of Quality and ISO 9001. Review of the QM of Company C indicated that this stepped outside standard procedures. The documents were signed by the President/Owner of Company C. The case was adjurned and a settlement reached based on the fact that this was an action outside of the normal course of business which scared the h**l out of that President (he saw his houses, cars etc. going Bye-Bye).

I still make a wide detour around the fork lifts when I'm in Home Depot.
:vfunny:

KenS said:

I had my client keep a copy of all documents (which he lost) and kept a copy myself in the client's file, I had bad feelings about this.
:vfunny:

Sometimes you have to go with your instincts. You should have gotten a "bonus" for your efforts because it saved the day for somebody. I can understand your post about issuing the CAR as a matter of protection, now. If Russ could be found responsible for concealing knowledge of defective material shipped to a Customer, then I retract my original advice. If he was outside the loop, I'm still not sure I would like external parties seeing our dirty laundry.

I was once asked to sign a C of C by my boss and refused because it wasn't 100% to requirements. He asked me why and I said because we didn't do such and such. He told me to put down my exception and sign it. I did, fully confident that I hadn't compromised my principles. There are times when you must take a stand or find another line of work. I'm sure Russ did the right thing, I was only suggesting a different approach.:agree: :ko: :smokin:

NRG,

Can see your POV but for a diff. reason.

I was once involved with a company who's history was to use the QMS as a stick with which to beat staff. Needless to say, fear struck into the hearts of staff when quality was mentioned.

You should be very careful when looking to apportion blame.

Obviously, in this case this 'error' was very much deliberate and likely to be down to laziness and someone should definitely be made accountable, but should Quality be used to ensure that the person responsibile is brought to account?

Maybe a good way would be to allow top bod to bo****k responsible person and you raise the CAR for the specific reason that something went wrong, not because someone f***ed up.

JMHO, just be careful how it looks.

Laura said:

NRG,

Obviously, in this case this 'error' was very much deliberate and likely to be down to laziness and someone should definitely be made accountable, but should Quality be used to ensure that the person responsibile is brought to account?



Laura,

Obviously, the majority of the posts in this thread think so. I agree with you and do not enjoy being the policeman. Some Quality personnel are on a head trip and consider that part of the job. You know, right all the wrongs because I'm here and have the POWER. I would rather put the trash where is belongs and let them clean it up. And, there are lot of different ways to skin the proverbial cat without "writing" it up. If I were auditing a company and saw a report like that which accuses a group of Managers of collusion and concealing defective material, I would think two things:
1. How did it get this far as to have to be "written" up? (What was the motive behind it-ambition of frustration?)

2. Can I trust anybody else in this company but the shining star who took this drastic action?

Thanks for snapping me out of my trance. I'm getting too easy as I get older. How was it said, "There is no fool like an old fool". One of your neighbors over there fired that over. Oh yeah, Him!:rolleyes:

I had to edit this to show that I still agree with Ken if I can be held accountable for my knowledge/participation in such a seedy event.

What is bo****k? The other one was easy to figure out.:vfunny:
Nice to see you back.:ko: :smokin:

What is bo****k? The other one was easy to figure out.

bo****k is a slang term for male genitalia, as in balls.

Hope this has cleared it up for you.

energy,

Glad you had the b**ls to ask.


Seems to me that this is a proverbial case of "Being between a rock and a hard place". I just hope that I don't have to tend with a like situation. I guess I would say write it up and let the chips fall where they will. But then again maybe not.

:frust:

" If you proceed to write up the MRB Board, tread carefully. Usually, they are upper managers who will not appreciate seeing that they willfully concealed defective product in writing. Also, results of Audits are available to External Auditors. Not a good thing, exposing cases of misconduct to others." - Energy

" Well thanks for all the response. I jumped in and wrote it up, so I'm waiting for the fallout now. I'm afraid I couldn't feel good about the job I'm doing if I let that one pass. Maybe I just take my job too seriously, but that's what I'm paid to do. No the MRB guys aren't a bunch of idiots, just too "functional" oriented sometimes. They realize they really blew it on this one, and they are taking a lot of heat from the VP. Then from me." - Russ<hr>Knowing what it means to be bought out, management kicked out, and making the accounting sheets look good, I've seen a tremendous shift in policy that is unsettling. At this time, those of us who protect the customer to gain market share, are increasingly painted by new, foolish management who believes that QA is over-zealous and should "push-the-boundries" a little. After all, we are told, our competitors are getting the business because they are cheaper, despite the fact we have a superior quality rating. The method of this comparison is strong among our new, ambious production personnel, "yes-men" who only understand parts/head.

The new management simply can't understand why parts are scrapped. They too, like the post above, are purely "functionally" oriented. The MRB is a joke among production workers as the cage that magically makes everything good after it sits a few weeks.

As Energy stated, tread carefully, as often there is alot of politics.
Being in QA is a dangerous profession. Don't let it go, and you are wasting money. Let it go, and well, you know the outcome.

Resently I had a complaint from the customer, issued sort/reworks on all inventory. Our department was overrulled and the shipment went non-certified, despite what the customer was told. I made the COO, who did this, sign off on it. I forwarded the 8D to them, which said visual sorting was ineffective the first time, and requested they answer it within the 48 hrs the customer allows. Since they didn't want to lie in writing, they never responded, and a record of this was kept. Its possible this may accidently get faxed to the customer as objective evidence for the 8D -- every nonconformance is an accident here -- no big deal.

Either way, if management isn't in agreement, its easy to find a way to fire a quality manager. Document, document, document. I can not stress that enough. While you may try to fix the problem, you could find yourself being the pawn in the game. They like you when you charm a customer into not sorting everything, but ask you why you let it get to them, when you can't catch all the crap they are trying to sneak through behind your back.