Just had to Gloat.

I just sent all of the level 2 docs to our IT dude for installing on our intranet. It's been a long 8 months.

My thanks to Marc for the help and kick in the pants last April.

Now the fun begins. When folks begin to be audited to them.

ON WITH THE SHOW. :vfunny:

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND FOLKS:bigwave:

James.

JRKH said:

Just had to Gloat.

I just sent all of the level 2 docs to our IT dude for installing on our intranet. It's been a long 8 months.

James.

James,

What a lucky guy. I have to put mine on the intranet. Do you have Secretary, too?:p :ko: :smokin:

Congratulations James! :bigwave:

energy said:



James,

What a lucky guy. I have to put mine on the intranet. Do you have Secretary, too?:p :ko: :smokin:


No such luck ole buddy. I just ain't aloud to touch the intranet stuff. AH ain't edikated

Oh by the way, energy, NICE FISH!!

James

James,
- So is the information easily accessible (user friendly indexing to the links) or do you still have to be psychic to find the right doc?
- does everyone have ready PC access?
- can employees still access the files via explorer (back door)?
- are files issue/version identified?
- can forms be electronically completed and emailed?
- how will you notify people of changes?
- is everyone accessing the same info?
- what contingencies are in place for printed copies?
and on it goes.

Intranet systems are not effective unless well thought out.
Good luck.

David Mullins said:

James,
- So is the information easily accessible (user friendly indexing to the links) or do you still have to be psychic to find the right doc?
- does everyone have ready PC access?
- can employees still access the files via explorer (back door)?
- are files issue/version identified?
- can forms be electronically completed and emailed?
- how will you notify people of changes?
- is everyone accessing the same info?
- what contingencies are in place for printed copies?
and on it goes.

Intranet systems are not effective unless well thought out.
Good luck.


David,

There is always one who has to rain on the parade.:p :vfunny:

Seriously. Those are good questions and I have covered most of them with our IT guru. We should be in pretty good shape.

James

I'll add a little more water...actually just another issue to be addressed, which you probably already have but I haven't seen it mentioned:

What is the disaster plan? If, for whatever reason, the network/computers aren't functioning properly...how are the documents accessed?

We too, have specs and work instructions on an intranet - however not all departments have access. While this is being worked on (actually on hold due to shortage of $$$) Document Manual are still inplace where needed. Additionally, I still keep a complete document catalog in the office. In case of network/access failure - these documents are accessable 24/7 (since I'm only here 8/5) as a back-up.

BTW...I don't have a secretary either! In all honesty there isn't one at our site at all unless you count the receptionist - but she really doesn't fill a true secretary role.

:) Eileen

E Wall said:

I'll add a little more water...actually just another issue to be addressed, which you probably already have but I haven't seen it mentioned:

What is the disaster plan? If, for whatever reason, the network/computers aren't functioning properly...how are the documents accessed?

BTW...I don't have a secretary either! In all honesty there isn't one at our site at all unless you count the receptionist - but she really doesn't fill a true secretary role.

:) Eileen


Eileen,

I have a complete set on My computer and also a hard copy set in a binder. Changes must go through me and all of these sets (my computer, master copy and Intranet) must match.

James

E Wall said:

I'll add a little more water...actually just another issue to be addressed, which you probably already have but I haven't seen it mentioned:

What is the disaster plan? If, for whatever reason, the network/computers aren't functioning properly...how are the documents accessed?

:) Eileen

Overkill?
How long would anyone be without a document? How often are they accessed? If it were here, everybody would know the computors are down and not having access to documents wouldn't change a thing. They already know the procedures. What few standardized forms we have on the Intranet are password protected to maintain revision status so they are not filled in electronically. The majority of forms which become "records" are identified and not on the Intranet. Every department has paper that is particular to them and we refuse to "control" them by doing them over with revisions, form numbers. You don't have to. Just identify by record name, owners and location.
Our main problem would be our computerized sales system for the Distribution side of the business. Internet Sales, etc..But, like losing electricity to the facility, there is nothing to do but wait. I do not believe anyone can cover every emergency. And shame on any Company that needs to access the Intranet to know how to operate their business. JMHO. :bigwave: :ko: :smokin:

James,

What kind of network? Is it a dedicated "Knowledge Management" software? Lotus Notes?

-Atul

Energy

You are quite right - it is overkill.

Lets face it no-one but auditors ever look at procedures, and most good auditors only give them a cursory glance anyway.

:mad: Some of the comments made just astound me and show quite often that there are those that don't bother to see either the content of a post, what context a post is made in (whether unable or unwilling), or are just looking to spout off. While I usually just consider the source and ignore it...I've about had it with a select few. :frust:

While I agree that many Level 1 & 2 documents aren't looked at frequently, that isn't what I was talking about. Anyone reading the post should have identified that. :frust:

I clearly stated "We too (meaning also) have specs and work instructions posted on an intranet". These are the level 3 docs and I didn't think I needed to spell that out - apparently a mistake on my part (*snicker* NOT). I then went on to describe what was put in place as a precautionary measure (which James stated he does the same thing).

There does have to be some 'worse-case-senario' planning...regarless of which level they are...but the measure should be commensurate to the expected use.

Any questions?

E Wall said:

:mad: Some of the comments made just astound me and show quite often that there are those that don't bother to see either the content of a post, what context a post is made in (whether unable or unwilling), or are just looking to spout off. While I usually just consider the source and ignore it...I've about had it with a select few. :frust:

Any questions?

As far as I know, one (or two) members can still have opposing views without feeling the wrath of the omnipotent. Take your own advice and climb down off that horse. And, yes,this will make it's way in a private message so go ahead and delete it.

It is not overkill to have a contingency plan. No matter whether it is a level one or level three doc.

We get floods around here, and have the distinction of being the nation's county with highest tornado occurrence (or so I've heard). We aren't talking just a few hours of electricity outage. We're talking losing everything.

But for those times when the network goes down (and it happens from time to time for various reasons), not everything stops around here because we've set up certain files for synching on shut-down. All of the approved forms and templates, etc. are available on an offline basis. Individuals choose whatever folders they would need on an emergency basis and synch those as well. For anyone who has never set this up (and particularly if you travel alot and want to take network info with you and don't want to go through the task of transferring to C: drive and then deleting on your return), it is available on Windows 2000.

E

Dont know if i was a target in your last post, but sorry if it appears I have a different opinion to yours, or anyone elses for that matter.

Just think perhaps we should consider 'risk' before we overburden ourselves with backup copies kept in paper and electronic formats in offsite bombproof shelters.

Most servers go down from time to time, and most get back up within a few hours.

Risk is an important issue that is rarely considered or addressed properly in the formulation of a QMS (there I go taking us off the thread again - naughty me).

JRKH said:

Eileen,

I have a complete set on My computer and also a hard copy set in a binder. Changes must go through me and all of these sets (my computer, master copy and Intranet) must match.

James
James,

Me too, exactly as you describe. So how about those atomic tornadoes?:ko: :smokin:

M Greenaway said:

Energy

You are quite right - it is overkill.

Lets face it no-one but auditors ever look at procedures, and most good auditors only give them a cursory glance anyway.

Mgreenaway unfortunately not everyone has a steel trap for a mind like the one you do. People do tend to forget from time to time and need to refer back to the procedure. Is it overkill and are auditors the only ones that look at procedures, maybe for your company, but where I work, I would have to disagree. Not everyone works in the world of making simple widgets (or what ever you do). We are performing testing on medical devices and there may be times when we don’t perform a particular test for a long period of time and yes the technician may need to refer back to the procedure. So, your computer system is down and will be for 3 days. Now what do you do, sit around and wait for your system to come back up, which in turn holds up the testing and pisses the client off. Well if you had one set of paper records, you could use them and get the job done. How often will this happen, probably not very often, but I like to look ahead and cover the what ifs rather than waiting for disaster to happen and then scrambling around when it does happen. JMHO

M Greenaway said:

E

Dont know if i was a target in your last post, but sorry if it appears I have a different opinion to yours, or anyone elses for that matter.

You don't?:vfunny: It certaintly wasn't me! :rolleyes:


Just think perhaps we should consider 'risk' before we overburden ourselves with backup copies kept in paper and electronic formats in offsite bombproof shelters.

Risk is an important issue that is rarely considered or addressed properly in the formulation of a QMS (there I go taking us off the thread again - naughty me).

This thread jumped the track awhile ago. You're forgiven!:agree:
:ko: :smokin:

E Wall said:

*SNIP**
Any questions?

Yeah.... Why are you at work on your birthday?!?! Or are you checking from home - and if so... again... WHY?!?! :confused:

Happy Birthday!!! :vfunny: :bigwave: :D

Cheers!

energy said:


This thread jumped the track awhile ago. You're forgiven!:agree:
:ko: :smokin:


I think I'd be more surprised if we had a thread that didn't jump track (except the humor thread).

James:vfunny:

JRKH said:

I think I'd be more surprised if we had a thread that didn't jump track (except the humor thread).

James:vfunny:

James,

See what you did? Spankings are in order for the unruly! Knock off that hooray for me stuff! Aren't you glad you announced such glad tidings? An old Hindu once told me, "They will come at you in all hours of the night" I had no idea. :biglaugh: :smokin:

You all crack me up... Glad humor has been restored though!~

My ire was up because of comments from Energy "How long would anyone be without a document? How often are they accessed?" and "And shame on any Company that needs to access the Intranet to know how to operate their business. JMHO." Practical business practice - nobody is expected to have a photographic memory...level 3 documents exist because we would rather the operators use them rather than relying on often faulty memories. Therefore, having the documents available is necessary - and since there is no 'computer or office' support after 5 p.m until 7 the next morning - some contingency plan has to be in place.

Also, at least in our case, the server problem is grand scale - it is run out of Atlanta, GA. Additional problem currently exists, which isn't what was planned for but am dang glad I'm ready for it anyway - since this is a sub-contracted service with a supplier that hasn't been paid (we're in bankruptcy) no telling how long support would take to if it went down (and I'm talking possible 5days plus).

BTW, thanks to all for the Birthday wishes, some were posted others were IM or e-mail. Michael - I worked from 4 a.m. to 1 p.m. yesterday - not the best plan on my birthday but had to be done. I usually work 7-4, but came in early to conduct internal audit interviews with some 3rd shift folks.

ISO GUY said:

So, your computer system is down and will be for 3 days. Now what do you do, sit around and wait for your system to come back up, which in turn holds up the testing and pisses the client off. JMHO

Nope,

I carry my fishing pole and my cell phone in the truck. Call me when they come back up. 3 days? Holy Schmoley. I've been working a long time and never experienced anything that comes close to that. The worst thing that has ever happened was a problem with our server and I couldn't post for 1/2 day. Really bummed me out! :bonk: :ko: :smokin:

Energy I am with you on this one.

Once heard this definition of a scientist which adequately fits some quality professionals:-

"A Scientist (or quality professional) is someone looking for a black cat in a dark room that isnt actually there."

M Greenaway said:

Energy I am with you on this one.

Once heard this definition of a scientist which adequately fits some quality professionals:-

"A Scientist (or quality professional) is someone looking for a black cat in a dark room that isnt actually there."

Kind of like the BOOGEY MAN :eek: :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

energy said:



Nope,

I carry my fishing pole and my cell phone in the truck. Call me when they come back up. 3 days? Holy Schmoley. I've been working a long time and never experienced anything that comes close to that. The worst thing that has ever happened was a problem with our server and I couldn't post for 1/2 day. Really bummed me out! :bonk: :ko: :smokin:

I agree Energy that it may never happen, however, you probably have IT people that care LOL we dont. I just like to plan for th worst case scenario.

Better prepare for magnetic tape deterioration then ISOGUY, see the link below:-

http://www.vidipax.com/articles/tidal.html

I suggest you back up to CDROM

ISO GUY said:

I agree Energy that it may never happen, however, you probably have IT people that care LOL we dont. I just like to plan for th worst case scenario.

ISO Guy,

You hit it the mark. We have two IT guys and we spend a lot of $$ to keep everything running. Our equipment is relatively new because we have only been here a couple of years. I would venture that there may contingency plans that I don't even know about. If you look back at James posts, he has a IT guy and is comfortable with his sytem. I just got a little cranked when after all that, he kept getting warnings like he never considered the system going down. And, he has paper backup. I considered some of the posts overkill and paid the price for saying so.
Later Guy:bigwave: :ko: :smokin:

Seems like a risky thread to post on but what the heck. Here's my 2 cents worth. I can't remember all of the turns this thread has taken but here goes:

Every biz is different -- if you don't think you need a backup plan and no one needs to look at your level 3 docs to do their job, fine. That won’t fly with everyone, though. In MY world, servers do go down for more than a half day (3 days recently). Viruses do get past the AV program and knock-out critical files on occasion. There is some small threat that a fire, tornado, or other disaster could hit us. Many of OUR level 3 doc’s. do need to be accessed to know how to do our jobs. Heck, I wrote some of them myself but I still need to reference the doc to remember what it is I said we do! Some of the tests or production steps are quite complex and individual customer focused, so in many cases you need to reference the L3 doc to remember how to do it for a particular customer. There are lots of different customers and a darn near infinite number of part numbers – almost every product is custom. There are also some calculation/simulation programs that save tons of manual calculation that are used almost daily. And not every work station has a computer to access.

So, we put the master on the computer server, have a hard copy backup on site, and send a data backup to an offsite location on CD every week just in case. The cost for this modest “disaster plan” for data is quite small in both time and dollars, and for the cost it is a great insurance policy. If you don’t need it great, do what works for you, but to say as an unqualified blanket statement that no one does or should need to look at procedures/WI’s, etc. to do their jobs is quite shortsighted IMHO.

E Wall said:

You all crack me up... Glad humor has been restored though!~

My ire was up because of comments from Energy "How long would anyone be without a document? How often are they accessed?" and "And shame on any Company that needs to access the Intranet to know how to operate their business. JMHO."

My point was that because a server goes down, the world doesn't end. People don't sit there scratching the heads wondering "What do I do now? Of course, like others, we do daily backups and store off site. We just aren't so wedded to the Intranet that we can't function without it. Our Distribution Unit which controls all inventory and Sales Orders would be seriously affected if they lost their database. The contingency plan there is routine maintenance, and back up every day. But, if it crashed they would only lose Internet Sales which are piddlin! Customers still call, orders taken, product pulled and shipped. Inconvenient? For sure. Absolutely necessary to function? Not! Sorry for raising anybody's ire. As for procedures, the people who use them, wrote them. They do not need to see them. New people have access to hardcopies in two places. They are there because the wonderful world of ISO says so.:agree: :ko: :smokin:

I certainly didn't think my little gloat would arouse so much spirited debate. (Ya never know with the cove)

To clarify,

I got the idea to use the intranet from a combination of 1) discusions on these boards some months ago, and 2) suggested by my IT guy.

The idea is to provide ease of:
1) Access to documents form any computer terminal
2) Protection of documents from unauthorized tampering
3) Make it easy to distribute changes
4) Allow for printing of instructions at (or near) work stations.

As it stands now, we will have:
1) Working set of doc's on an intranet
2) "Master" set of docs on the QM's Computer
3) Hard copy set controlled by QM
4) Doc's to be added or changed on the Intranet, must be sent to IT by the QM.

The system may not be failsafe, but I its as close as I can get for now.

Thats my story an' I'm stickin' to it.


James:thedeal:

M Greenaway said:

Better prepare for magnetic tape deterioration then ISOGUY, see the link below:-

http://www.vidipax.com/articles/tidal.html

I suggest you back up to CDROM

Actually we back up to DVD, I am sure you have heard about it over there since you guys invented everything else! "MGreen Nice weather we are having! :vfunny:

Mike S. said:

Seems like a risky thread to post on but what the heck. Here's my 2 cents worth. I can't remember all of the turns this thread has taken but here goes:

Every biz is different -- if you don't think you need a backup plan and no one needs to look at your level 3 docs to do their job, fine. That won’t fly with everyone, though.
Well, I think I've let this one play its self out, but I haven't gotten to page 3 - yet. I thing the above is precisely the problem that arises in the context here. Someone recently asked me if the "One size does NOT fit all" in my 'signature' was a sexual connotation. Well, I guess it could be taken that way but it was - and is - my 'Grand Statement' that what works in one company does not necessarily work in others. I don't care if the product and processes are similar or even the same. I put that in there as I want people to understand that advice and information here is REFERENCE information and to look at their company, think of the experiences of others, and apply a system that meets your company's needs and requirements. one person says "Who ever looks at..." and another fires back "We do here..." and a small turf / ideological battle ensues.

Folks - we have to remember to take this all less personal. I think it serves it's purpose well, but the personal stuff is a bit much. We've been through this a number of times since last fall and as humans we're supposed to be able to learn from the past. I know politicians don't but we can.

When you folks fly at each other it appears to me typically to be because you are looking at your situation and it doesn't fit your situation and/or (loathed word follows) paradigm. So it's wrong to you. The cross section of prople is meant to bring out questions precisely because of similarities that may or may not exist. My point is, I have to say I felt all the questions thrown at JRKH were appropriate. Just people asking about "What if..." or "How did you...?" Some saying "Did you think of...?" I thought they were appropriate.

Well, it looks like everything is over and that everyone has kissed and made up. I'll see as soon as I post this and go on to page 3.

But before I do - James, congratulations on what you and the others in your company have achieved. You have a way to go, but it sounds like you're firing on all cylinders. Don't let the effort bog down. QS-9000 is a bit more than ISO - please don't forget that.

Now - on with the show.

ISO GUY said:

Actually we back up to DVD, I am sure you have heard about it over there since you guys invented everything else! "MGreen Nice weather we are having! :vfunny:
My ISP for this server backs up daily. I back it up myself at least every 2 weeks. I consider my risk to be a worst case loss of 24 hours of database entries (these forums).

At home I used to back up to 4.7 gig DVD-RAM optical disks and before that CD-ROMs and before that Bernoulli disks, and before that to floppys (yup - the little ones - I had over 600 of them at one time). Now I have that wonderful, if bought used, CheechWiz Server. 80 gigabytes. I back up my other computers to that one. If that one goes I have a backup on optical disk for the main system and for all applications. So if the CheechWiz server goes down my two Macs have the 'originals'. (Hey! I'm redundant!)<hr>If you want to ensure against worst case (short of nuclear war) you mirror to a server in an alturnate city or to two other servers in two alturnate cities (one of my past clients did this - their data was too important). In fact, if a system went down in one city, one of the other cities auto-magically picked up all traffic within 30 seconds and kept mirroring to the third. They could not afford downtime. Each of the 3 masters were in completely different states.

One the other hand, one client did a daily backup and kept the backup in the trunk of one of the company cars out in a fenced lot (if the building burns down.... scenario).

I have had others that only had a computer or two that were mostly used to print letters and signs. They didn't back up anything.

Hows that?

My interest in what James has achieved was from a different point of view. So here are a few more queries to add to my earlier post :

Is this a completely paperless system ( barring your hard copy set in a binder)? What were the arguments for and against implementing such a system? Who all have access to the company intranet (Managers, Supervisors, operators)? How long before you can judge the success (or failure) of the system?
Thanx,
-Atul.

Atul Khandekar said:

My interest in what James has achieved was from a different point of view. So here are a few more queries to add to my earlier post :

Is this a completely paperless system ( barring your hard copy set in a binder)? What were the arguments for and against implementing such a system? Who all have access to the company intranet (Managers, Supervisors, operators)? How long before you can judge the success (or failure) of the system?
Thanx,
-Atul.

Atul,

Let's take them in order.
1) No. It's not intended to be paperless. The Idea is to use this to store and control the documents.
2) To tell the truth most of the arguments were played out in the Cove a while back. Don't remember the threads.
3) Read/Print access is available to all managers and supervisors. IT has access to loading the Intranet, and I have access to docs for revising.
4) Dunno how long to judge the system. Right now I don't forsee a problem.

James

James,
Thanx for the reply.

A few more questions..if you don't mind..

Is the system limited to QMS only or will you be adding other things - tech. reference library, training etc..? What kind of programming effort was invloved?

-Atul.

Atul,

Right now it is limited to QMS. Our IT man is working out the programming. It will take him a little while as we are still debugging another new system.

I am not in on how the programming occurs. I know that the system will be read/print only and that printouts will have non-controlled document label on them.

After we see how well this system works we may indeed expand it to include other areas such as training etc. but we have no definate plans at this time.

Has anyone else on the board used their intranet as Atul suggests?

James

James,
"They will come at you at all hours of the night. " Remember that? I will not post any of my perceived good news because it will soon become a gastronomical discomfort that would cause me to question my good fortunes. Do your own thing. Do not wait for congratulations or kudos. There is always a better way, according to some. Don't even ask them. Go for it. You're on the right track.:) :ko: :smokin:

Energy, sometimes you're just a disgruntled pessimist. ;)

Marc said:

Energy, sometimes you're just a disgruntled pessimist. ;)

I represent that remark!:biglaugh: :ko: :smokin:

energy said:

James,
".....Do your own thing. Do not wait for congratulations or kudos. There is always a better way, according to some. Don't even ask them. Go for it. You're on the right track.:) :ko: :smokin:


Energy,
Well my friend 2 fridays ago I was in such a good mood about FINALLY getting these documents together that I bragged. Just a quick YIPPEE to my friends swimmin' in the cove. I can't believe we are on the 3rd page with 40 responses to this.

You just never know what you start when you post here.

James

Rather than start another bragging thread, I'll just commandeer this one...

I'm proud to announce the fact that our ISO9001 certification audit was passed last week with flying colors! Just 5 minor NCs (3 of which were so trivial that they've already been corrected and in my opinion didn't even deserve to be mentioned).

This is in an organization that was downright allergic to procedures and documentation when we started this effort 18 months ago...

Granted, I was able to leverage a great deal from my division's parent company -- I'm more than happy to share the credit -- although getting a French division to accept US procedures was non-trivial as well...

Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to boast. :cool:

Bruce

skullsike said:

9001:2000 cert. now under the belt


Now Im getting bored!:smokin:

Congrats!!! and say a few prayers for me.... We start our transition audit on Monday. This afternoon I was informed we have a customer that wants to.... hmmm... let me rephrase that... will be conducting an audit on Friday.... :rolleyes: As if I don't have enough on my plate... :eek:

Enjoy the peace!!! I can't wait for Turkey Day!!!!

Cheers!!

Mike

skullsike said:

9001:2000 cert. now under the belt


Now Im getting bored!:smokin:


Congratulations. I know the feeling, things have gotten pretty boring around here as well :vfunny:

*whew* :D

ISO-9001:2000 transition audit is now history!! We've passed our audit and are recommended for registration to the new standard. :smokin:

Now, if I could only relax... but alas - we have a customer audit happening tomorrow morning. :confused: :bonk:

I'm waiting for all this bordom everyone keeps talking about... :ko:

I am really going to need Thursday and Friday off....

Cheers!!!

Mike