Hi

I am working in a company that design and assembles brakes. I am trying to implement ISO/TS 16949:2002. I am developing the Purchasing process but I found a number of things that are not clear to me.

1) I will evaluate my suppliers and I have two kinds of evaluations pre-selection and periodic. Pre-selection is for new suppliers and periodic is for the suppliers I already have. The question is, how can I implement the procedure? Do I need to evaluate (pre-select) all the suppliers I have already or can I start with the new suppliers?

2) In 7.4.3 "the organization shall establish and implement the inspection or other activities necessary for ensuring that purchased product meets specified purchase requirements. Where the organization or its customer intends to perform verification at the supplier's premises, the organization shall state the intended verification arrangements and method of product realease in the purchasing information."
What does this mean? What I understand is that if a customer wants to verify the materials we are buying from a supplier, the customer can go to our supplier's place and make the verification. We need to have an authorization from our supplier to do this, no? The issue here is that the company's president where I work considers it confidential information about where we buy our materials. That means that if one of our customer wants to verify our supplier the company's president won't let the customer go there. Do I understand this requirement ok? If I understand ok, what can I do so I can meet the requiremt?

3) I need to inspect all incoming products. This is the way we are doing this now it: We send the purchasing order with the materials we want + the print. On the print we show the critical dimensions and the inspection points. The supplier makes the inspections according to the print and makes a report before shipping. The supplier sends the report. If we are agree with the report they send the product. Does this meet the requirements of 7.4.3?

4) The company I am working for is a family company so everyone in the family can buy at anytime and they don't use a purchase order. They go to the supplier and get the product, that's it. Is it necessary to have:
* a purchasing order ?
* someone approve the purchasing order?
how can I meet the requirement 7.4.2 Purchasing information?

Thanks

Rosana some of my thoughts.

1) Dont conduct your pre-selection on your existing established suppliers - it will be a waste of time. You already have sufficient historical data to warrant having these suppliers (or otherwise).

2) This statement harks back to the good old days of the defence standards from which ISO9001 originated. It basically means that if your customer specifically requests in the contract that they wish to verify materials or other purchases you make at your suppliers premises then you have to afford them that right. It is kind of meaningless in that whatever the customer demands, and you accept in their contract you would be legally obliged to comply with - but note that this is contract specific, you do not have to do it for everyone.

3) If that method of control works for you then that is OK. The amount and type of incoming inspection done by yourselves depends on the other controls you exercise over your suppliers. We perform no goods inwards inspection.

4) The standard doesnt dictate how purchasing information is communicated. But personally I feel that a verbal agreement leaves you open to some risk.

Hope this helps.

1) State in your SP that effective xx/xx/02 all new suppliers are selected based on pre-select.
2) If you or your customer wants to inspect at your supplier it must be stated on your P.O.. I understand this is common for government and military orders.
3) We have various levels of inspection. All materials get a general inspection at the dock (check of paper work, amount,visiable damage). Most of our material comes with a cert. of analysis or conformance and are not inspected further. We do have about 30 items that are inspected by us due to criticality or problems.
4) Say what you are doing and say that by turning in the receipt to accounting is approval and remember this is section 7

Thanks for your answer M Greenaway

"1) Dont conduct your pre-selection on your existing established suppliers - it will be a waste of time. You already have sufficient historical data to warrant having these suppliers (or otherwise)."

I have 3 types of suppliers A, B and C. The A suppliers have an evaluation every year, B every 2 years and C every 3 years. So when I implement the procedure all the suppliers I have I will evaluate 1 or 2 or 3 years later depending on the category. Is this ok?

"3) If that method of control works for you then that is OK. The amount and type of incoming inspection done by yourselves depends on the other controls you exercise over your suppliers. We perform no goods inwards inspection."

So is it enough if I inspect my materials only at my suppliers location, or do I need to do something else? When we receive the material we inspect the amount of boxes and the weight too, but we don't inspect the critical dimensions, because our supplier sent us the report.

Another question: when we need to buy something do we need to have an estimate from 2 or 3 supplier so we can choose the supplier?


Thanks for your answer gpainter



"1) State in your SP that effective xx/xx/02 all new suppliers are selected based on pre-select."

XX/XX/02 will be the date I implement the SP, no? Do I need to write something in my SP that all the suppliers we have are accepted?

"3) We have various levels of inspection. All materials get a general inspection at the dock (check of paper work, amount,visiable damage). Most of our material comes with a cert. of analysis or conformance and are not inspected further. We do have about 30 items that are inspected by us due to criticality or problems."

Is this certificate of analysis from a laboratory or is it from your supplier?

I can say in my SP that we will inspect certain materials and our "first article" that will go to the Design department.

I would put down and it should be true: Based on past history,effective July 17,02 all current suppliers are on the Approved Supplier List.
Cert. of conformity - generally from a supplier- statement that the product has passed the inspection required by us
Cert. of analysis - generally from a lab on material integrity

gpainter

thank you for your information

gpainter

I am sorry I don't understand "Cert. of conformity - generally from a customer - statement that the product has passed the inspection required by us ".
Specifically who is "a customer" and who is "us"


Thanks again

Over this side of the world we have a standard BS/EN10204 which describes the types fo inspection certificates that can be issued.

According to this document a type 2.1 certificate is what you might commonly call a 'certificate of conformity' in that ti contains a broad statement on product conformity that is unspecific to an order or product, and does not detail inspections undertaken or their results.

A type 3.1.b certificate is what you might call a certificate of analysis in that it states specific tests undertaken against specific products supplied on a specific order, and provides specific test results. Typically from material suppliers this type of certificate will show the chamical analysis of the actual material supplied, and any relevant mechanical properties, such as hardness, percentage elongation, etc.

I would say that a material supplier who can provide a type 3.1.b certificate should not require any actual inspection of the material supplied, just verification that the certified material properties meet the specification required.

what means " the organization shall promote supplier monitoring of the performance of their manufacturing processes." ?

Thanks

Rosana

"1) I will evaluate my suppliers and I have two kinds of evaluations pre-selection and periodic. Pre-selection is for new suppliers and periodic is for the suppliers I already have. The question is, how can I implement the procedure? Do I need to evaluate (pre-select) all the suppliers I have already or can I start with the new suppliers?

A- Refer to 7.4.1.2; All suppliers except those registered to the TS and those "unless oyherwise specified by the customer" will require supplier quality management system development.

2) In 7.4.3 "the organization shall establish and implement the inspection or other activities necessary for ensuring that purchased product meets specified purchase requirements. Where the organization or its customer intends to perform verification at the supplier's premises, the organization shall state the intended verification arrangements and method of product realease in the purchasing information."
What does this mean? What I understand is that if a customer wants to verify the materials we are buying from a supplier, the customer can go to our supplier's place and make the verification. We need to have an authorization from our supplier to do this, no? The issue here is that the company's president where I work considers it confidential information about where we buy our materials. That means that if one of our customer wants to verify our supplier the company's president won't let the customer go there. Do I understand this requirement ok? If I understand ok, what can I do so I can meet the requiremt?

A- Refer to 7.2; This should be discussed and resolved during your quote review.

3) I need to inspect all incoming products. This is the way we are doing this now it: We send the purchasing order with the materials we want + the print. On the print we show the critical dimensions and the inspection points. The supplier makes the inspections according to the print and makes a report before shipping. The supplier sends the report. If we are agree with the report they send the product. Does this meet the requirements of 7.4.3?

A- Refer to 7.4.3.1; If the results are based on statistical and reviewed by you, Yes.

4) The company I am working for is a family company so everyone in the family can buy at anytime and they don't use a purchase order. They go to the supplier and get the product, that's it. Is it necessary to have:
* a purchasing order ?
* someone approve the purchasing order?
how can I meet the requirement 7.4.2 Purchasing information?

A- 7.4.1 requires that you have apurchasing process, 7.4.2 requires that you provide purchasing information.
Establish your process to allow for both types of purchases; w/ a purchase order and wo/ a purchase order.

TS allows us the freedom of achieving customer requirements far more efficiently than long lengthy procedures.
Identify the process, identify the inputs required for the process, identify the activities within the process, identify the desired output of the process. Link this together in a simple description or a flow chart and you have a process.

Sam,

Thank you

Rosana

Sam,

What do you think about :

what means " the organization shall promote supplier monitoring of the performance of their manufacturing processes." ?

Thanks again
Rosana

Rosana,
IMO, this means you as the organization will (shall) have evidence that you are suggesting to your suppliers that they should perform some type of performance monitoring on their processes.
The requirement is for you to "promote" it, not demand it.

Thanks Sam

I understand but could you give me an example?

Thanks again

Rosana

Rosana,
What I am doing is meeting with our suppliers and:
- presenting the benefits of performance monitoring; to the supplier and to us, the customer,
- Revising my supplier rating process to include performance monitoring,
- suggesting performance monitoring be implemented as part of corrective and preventive action when nonconfirming or suspect material is received.
Just a couple of thoughts. Any method that gets the idea to your suppler would work.

Sam,

Thanks. I am doing something similar to what you said.

Rosana

Sam

I am still working in this procedure "Purchasing" and I saw:

"Unless otherwise specified by the customer, suppliers to the organization shall be third party registered to
ISO 9001:2000 by an accredited third-party certification body."

What does this mean?
All my suppliers have to be ISO 9001:2000? what happens if they are not? Do I need to look for another?
What happens if I cannot find a supplier certified in ISO 9001:2000 for a product I need.

Thanks

Rosana

Hi Rosanna,

In my opinion, the thing is to inform your/s customer/s about the
situation of those not ISO9001/2000 certified suppliers and negotiate with the customer "permision" for buying products from them.


We did it in some ocassion, and customer just ask us to keep them informed about our suppliers' progress towards ISO9001/2000 certification.


Hope my opinion is of any help.


Xavier Gisbert

Rosana said:

All my suppliers have to be ISO 9001:2000? what happens if they are not? Do I need to look for another?

This is causing quite a stir! A strict interpretation of the clause indicates all of your suppliers must be registered….unless they are specifically waived by your customer. Now, if you have one vendor providing product for three separate customers, then EACH customer must waive the requirement. Using this strict interpretation, there is not much wiggle room. Based on the C-9 Sanctioned Interpretation of QS, I would suggest the strict interpretation will be used, at least until there is an official Sanctioned Interpretation of TS. Sorry

Rosana,
Contact your STA and advisse them of the situation. I am sure they will work with you on any supplier issues.

xgisbert, db, Sam

thanks for helping

Rosana

gpainter

I am sorry I don't understand "Cert. of conformity - generally from a customer - statement that the product has passed the inspection required by us ".
Specifically who is "a customer" and who is "us"


Thanks again should be Supplier and the Us would be your company