Hi,
I'm just been looking around at the ISO 9002 business and have a couple of points/questions from a consumer perspective. BTW I've just been reading about ISO all day and this site is by far the most informative I've seen, anyway...

Say I'm a consumer and I select an accredited company to do business with - and they don't deliver.

Their accreditation means that they should have a complaints process? Say they don't or they don't follow it.

So I want to complaint about it. So I want to take it up with the ISO body. How does the average joe know where to find them?
The quality endorsed ISOxxxx & logo doesn't have a phone number, web address or any other identifying information.

Shouldn't accreditation (besides the pretty logos) demonstrate a means to complain/contact the standards body about any 'quality' failings or to whomever their Registrar is, to ensure only legit, credible businesses are accreditted?

Then again, it is not exactly easy to firstly find a company's Registrar, unless you already know where to look.

Shouldn't the businesses processes be partly public? i.e. Perhaps this companies procedure manual is along the lines of "Take Order", "Take Cash", "Go to Casino" and they follow it to the letter - yet as a consumer I wouldn't exactly be happy with that, even though they had their procedures in place. How do I know if my chosen accredited business is actually following the procedures I expect and not smoking weed somewhere?

At least I'd expect the iso web site to have some information about a complaints procedure - but it doesn't have any references to complaints (How did ISO get accredited?)

Say I do complain to ISO or the business's Registrar, would I get the time of day? Do they often investigate complaints or do they send 'thank you for your concerns' letters out? Do they ever do additional audits or revoke certification?

With this and the apparently large problem with dodgy accreditation around, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that as far as I can tell so far, in practice accreditation doesn't seem to be any guarantee, assurance or insurance for the consumer (or their confidence) and can only offer at best offer 'some sense of security to consumers'.

Have I missed the point altogether, isn't a fundamental principal of the whole buzzword happy business of quality to provide quality outcomes to consumers?

Smullen

Looks like you have quickly recognised the major shortcoming of ISO9001 accreditation - you still dont know what you are getting, and it has little or no bearing onthe actual quality of product or service provided.

Your immediate course of action should really be to take up your specific concerns with your supplier. Also my advice would be to do a lot more in your supplier selection/appraisal than looking for an ISO9001 cert.

Shouldnt be the way I know, but that is the way it is, many of the threads in this forum touch on the reasons why.

If you know the registrar's name (ask the company if you don't have a copy of the certificate), it is a small matter to locate them on the internet. Simply www.registrar's name.com usually.

Contact the registrar with your complaint (they will want something in writing), and if the registrar is doing their job then on the next visit that complaint will be sent along with the other paperwork for the visit to the assessor performing the work. The assessor will look into the company's Corrective Action procedure and make sure that it is acting properly. They can use your name or other identifying information to check specifically on whether your complaint with the company was handled according to procedure. If the complaint sends a flag that there is something amiss within the company's processes (bad paint job,etc.) then the assessor can look into that specific function too because he has now been given a clue of something that might not be functioning right.

Other than that, there is nothing that the registrar can do.

If a flood of complaints about a company is received by a registrar, then the registrar will look much more closely at the company's processes and yes, they may uncover a true failing of the QMS which would require action on the company's part to maintain their certification.

As far as what kind of procedures a company has in place, you would be mistaken to think that a company can have any sort of procedures that they want and all they have to do is follow them in order to receive certification. They must follow ISO 9001 for certification.

Sean,
Lucinda is on the right path.

Go to Standards Australia, and click on the JAS-ANZ register.
http://www.standards.com.au/
Locate the company name your talking about and this will tel you if they're registered, what to, and whom by.
You can then complain to the certifier.
If you don't get any joy, complain to JAS-ANZ.

You might have been reading about ISO quality stuff all day, but, you clearly have a long way to travel in terms of knowledge and understanding.
A little knowledge is a adangerous thing!

Thanks for the feedback.

Looking back at my original post - I didn't really explain that I was strictly looking at the issue hypothetically.

The ISO 9001:2000 standard focuses on customer satisfaction, continual improvement & process management. Correct?

David I think you have hit the nail on the head with your comment:

"You might have been reading about ISO quality stuff all day, but, you clearly have a long way to travel in terms of knowledge and understanding.
A little knowledge is a adangerous thing!"

If it is so 'hard' for Joe consumer to learn 'what' an ISO9001 stamp of approval is supposed to give them - and it is so 'hard' for Joe consumer to know how to complain when he isn't given what he would expects - what does ISO9001 accreditation mean to him?

Like Lucinda says, to find the registrat "Simply www.registrar's name.com usually". That's fine for me, being at this forum and all, but what about regular people who aren't at this website?

For example here in Australia, if you have a problem with a bank you can call the banking ombudsman, you can go their website and fill out a form - and whilst I realize the purpose of QM is not solely to 'police' businesses, how credibly is it without an external 'policing' mechanism that is both 'readily available' and transparent?

Example:
ACME makes bolts. They cut costs by making an inferious product and deliberately falsify every document along the way. They are audited every year but pass with flying colours because they are lying, and the auditor is ACME-REG, run by ACME's CEO's brother.

Now Joe Consumers truck's wheels fall off between the bolts are inferior and not to the specifications. Joe would obviously call his lawyer, but in addition to that shouldn't Joe contact whomever 'accredited' ACME?

Now Joe contacts ACME-REG whom accredited ACME. ACME-REG run by ACME's brother says there is no problem with ACME.

Clearly ACME and ACME-REG should lose their accrediation and be banned from every acrediting, or being certified.

So does ISO have a clearly defined mechanism for Joe to complain about this arrangement and abuse of the system?

Judging by ISO's website, they have aknowleged they do have a problem with this sort of activity (a press release on the site), but the release doesn't actually say how to complain.

--
Example 2.
ACME2 makes great bolts and delivers in 14 days. Joe Consumer is unhappy because he didn't get his order for 14 days and complains to ACME-REG. It is a frivious complaint because ACME2 puts "Orders filled in 14 days!" on its invoices, it web site etc.

Even though it is a frivilous complain, is ACME-REG required to respond to it, call ACME2 & conduct an immediate investigation - which in this case would amount to 2 telephone calls?

---
I havent been clear in the purpose of asking these questions. I am simply trying to establish what ISO9001 means to a consumer - in practice - versuses what it should mean. I can see no websites that talk about ISO**** like this, and really shouldn't if be in a FAQ somewhere, perhaps
Q1. 'How ISO9001 cuts costs'
Q2. 'How ISO9001 benefits consumers'

I don't know - maybe I do need to learn more, but these shortcomings seem serious to me. i.e. You should not have to be an expert to find out -what- ISO9001 provides a comsumer with should you? There should be a very simple, readily accessible means to find out whether a process has not been followed etc.

Just my 2cents.

Thanks

Sean.

Sean,
All that anger!
JAS-ANZ is a better system than most countries have, so start finding out a few facts before ranting and raving.
Are you sure your Australian?

David,

No anger here until I visisted the frontpage page of the JAS-ANZ website. Java/Flash nightmare that crippled my computer.

Will go have a beer or something.

Sean

Sean - I think you are asking some very good questions but unfortunately there aren't any quick routes to a solution.
To start with, ISO as an organization doesn't accredit anybody. ISO simply writes the standard. I think if you look deep enough ISO looks at accreditation as a money making industry for registrars and consultants. The ISO standards are there as a baseline or guide for any good business throughout the world. It gives you a place to start. The fact that someone puts their name on a paper to say my company complies with the standard is supposed to give you, the customer, a warm fuzzy feeling that I have a quality system that at least meets the minimums outlined in ISO.
The actual fact is that, "on this day, in the events they looked at" APPEARED to comply. Every audit carries a disclaimer which says (para.) "I certify everything is fine unless I missed something".
I agree with Martin - your best action is to take it up with the supplier. If you can't resolve it, go somewhere else. That is really the driver to good quality. If customers don't buy from low quality suppliers (accredited or not), the quality will either improve or the supplier goes under.
Lucinda and Dave are right on in refering you to the registration body, but as has been said, there is little that they can do other than monitor.

Dave

smullen said:

Looking back at my original post - I didn't really explain that I was strictly looking at the issue hypothetically.

Example:
ACME makes bolts. They cut costs by making an inferious product and deliberately falsify every document along the way. They are audited every year but pass with flying colours because they are lying, and the auditor is ACME-REG, run by ACME's CEO's brother.

Now Joe Consumers truck's wheels fall off between the bolts are inferior and not to the specifications. Joe would obviously call his lawyer, but in addition to that shouldn't Joe contact whomever 'accredited' ACME?

Now Joe contacts ACME-REG whom accredited ACME. ACME-REG run by ACME's brother says there is no problem with ACME.

Thanks

Sean.

Registration to the ISO Standard will not protect anyone from fraudulant or possibly criminal behavior. Hypothetically, You purchase a UL (Underwriters Laboratory) Approved appliance from a major retail store. It has a large scratch in the cabinet. They refuse to honor your return due to Customer abuse. What do you do? Complain to UL about the retail store's shoddy customer treatment? Consider that Logo as representation of a company that has gone through the registration process. Not protection against criminal behavior by a few. Try to prove it. ISO isn't intended to be an Police Force for an unhappy customer, no matter how important the Customer thinks their complaint is. JMHO:ko: :smokin:

ISO isn't intended to be an Police Force for an unhappy customer, no matter how important the Customer thinks their complaint is. JMHO This might be 'just your humble opinion' energy, but I agree that it is dead on! ISO is not the better business bureau or the local consumer advocate.

ISO and QS did not stop the Firestone tire disaster. Both Ford and Firestone thought they were doing a good job.Their registrar could not find anything worthy of pulling the registration. Even if the registrar is not "Acme's brother', the registrar still might not find any hidden data or problems, whether the data is hidden intentionally or not.

Won't touch on Ford or BF (as seen from their registrar's hot-seat...!) but I can recall this phonecall we once rec'd from some lady who wanted to complain about some paint that she bought! We tried to explain that we have nothing at all to do with the product itself but she kept ranting and raving and was incredulous that we, as the registrar, did not "back" this product.

Sean, it's not about the product. Your hypothetical situation regarding the bolts doesn't speak to the certification of the management system, which is what the registrar looks at. It is a reality that bad parts make it through inspection and installation. The bad luck is that it was your hypothetical vehicle which rec'd the bad bolt (one of the statistical few). But that doesn't mean BEANS about the company's management system. Perhpas if you were to examine that system you would find (as ACME-Reg might have) that they have a vigorous testing and inspection program and that only one out of 15 million parts is found to be bad, and out of those only one out of a thousand aren't detected.

To the consumer, ISO 9001 doesn't imply a quality product or any sort of guarantee or "seal of approval". But it IS supposed to mean that the company cares enough about doing things the right way that they went to the effort of getting certified. And it also implies that should there be a problem with the item, their customer service staff will be interested in hearing about it, and possible resolving it.

It is not a legal avenue.

Sean

I hope that this thread has been helpful for you. It seems to me that the discussion is dead-on. Ultimately I believe that dealing with an ISO certified company means little to the consumer. Registration to the standard, or better: real compliance with the standard, would mostly benefit other businesses which are looking to establish long-term supplier relationships. The certification doesn't mean that the company will never supply nonconforming material, but that they have systems in place to prevent this, and systems in place to make it right when they do, and systems that try to improve continuously.

energy's comment about UL is not a complete analogy I think in that ISO certification is for companies, but UL certification is for specific products. A UL logo indicates that the product has been tested and found to be electrically safe. Which doesn't guarantee that you will never purchase a defective TV or radio, but it does mean that the product shouldn't blow up, start a fire, or electrocute you because of a faulty design.

db's comment about Bridgestone/Firestone is very apt. All automotive suppliers in the US must be certified to the QS9000 standard which is even more involved than the ISO9000 series. And yet thousands of substandard tires were delivered with tragic results. Quality system registration really means very little to the consumer. It is not legally binding, and, unfortunately, it is easy enough for a company to obtain a certificate and be compliant with the standard in name only.

When this work day ends, I believe I'll join you in having a beer or something! :smokin:

Regards,
Carl

As a side note;

Carl used to talk about self-certifying to ISO 9001. I have always maintained that ISO 9001 needs to be absolutely voluntary. The best way for this whole QMS thing to work is for no one to know you are registered. That way, it is purely for your benefit and never for show! Only those organizations that really wanted it would use it.

Sean, et al,

I don't think there is a need to expand on anyone else's remarks, they are right on track (system not product certification).

However given the huge (and costly) overtures of late concerning major corporate legal difficulties (including World Com in my neck of the woods), I feel that there will be a growing desire of organizations to begin to toe the line regarding their certifications and other methodologies of operating their company. There have been companies in the past who had registered QM Systems in place that were brought into litigation over product defects (not non-conformanities-- there is a legal difference). I'm not sure how they turned out, most are probably still in court. The feeling of late is that if a company has a registered quality system then the powers that be must be side stepping quality requirements on purpose to save a buck or two (this from the plaintiff's point of view...).
The defense would always state that the company went to great lengths to ensure quality practices were adhered to as evidenced by their successful continueous assessments by their registrar.

The problem arose from the 9k:94 standard which had one requirement concerning improvement. Hopefully the 9k:2k edition will help resolve this area due to having around 18 requirements for improvement (mostly in conjunction with the word continuous). The fine folks in Geneve, Switzerland, I believe has now decided to make improvement a very major concept for all who would like to have an ISO 9k:2k "banner" flying over their organization!!!

I know how frustrated you must feel dealing with a certificated company producing "certified junk", let me assure you that a lot of organizations are shuddering at these new requirements. Some will change and improve, others will continue to kick against the bricks and will either end their certifications voluntarily, or else be dropped by their registrar.

Just a note about complaints...most honest and sincere companies listen to their customers and value their input-- even if they are not a registered firm, after all they have been doing this for centuries because its a sound business policy. Personally, if I had a problem with a product and could not get reasonably prompt service or if I received abusive service, I wouldn't be doing business with them again EVER.

Sean, additional thoughts:
The ISO system of standards (hundreds exist) are probably not known to the average consumer. Horror of horrors, I have found that in many organizations, most employees do not know or even understand the requirements, which for most organizations a great load is placed on the Quality Department (after all it is a Quality Management System) to educate the staff on their role and how the standard will affect or infect their sales, purchasing, manufacturing department, to name a few. In all honesty, a lot of Quality Managers may not fully understand the requirements and how to apply them to their organization. The results are calling in outside consulants for assisstance.

There are a lot of sites that give information on the ISO Standards, and as you will find out, this is about as good as you can find, a lot of really fine, knowledgable folks who, like me, must eat and sleep this stuff!

Concerning " external police" that is what makes the entire system unique and why it works. There are a lot of methodologies that appeared since Henry Ford (and even earlier) most if not all can be a very effective operational tool for managing quality, however there always existed the knock on the door whereby your customer wanted to conduct an audit of your organization to see if you were truely able to fulfill his needs. The ISO standards for Quality Manaagement stands in the place of your customers, for this reason, most registered firms have found that customer audits have nearly gone by the wayside, because they rely on your registrar to continueously assess your compliance (and continuous improvement under the 9k:2k edition) and therefore do not feel compelled to spend resources, both human and monetery, to audit their supplier's facilities. Kinda of a win-win situation.
Proof? Our organization historically underwent 14-20 customer audits annually with an average of 3 auditors for 3 days (some of these happen to overlap another's audit schedule). It was always a painful expierence for all our staff. Often, an organization may spend between 6-15 manhours for each hour an auditor is at your facility. Since our registration in 1998, we have had only three audits by any of our customers, all of which were, of course, successful.

As far as the benifits of achieving registration goes there have been numerous articles in various quality journals over the past couple of years. The data is very generalized but remember that ISO registration benifits are a direct result of the committment from upper management. One of the best ways to determine the impact on an organization would be to find one in your area that has had their system registered for at least a year (results take time to measure effectively) and talk with the Quality Director/Manager. I think you will find that most will be forthright with you. A good, effective QMS is just like a baby. It is born, but takes a lot of time and nurturing with love for it to mature. Those of us who implement standards effectively and who have great desires for the well being of our organization, like to talk about it just like any proud parent of a toddler. Look at the folks who post in this forum for one.

Hope this helps sooth your feelings some.

All the best all you lads down under.

Gary

Gary,

Excellent posts! For someone with just 4 posts, you exhibit a talent for saying what you mean in an understanding way, specially for us slow folk! Welcome to the Cove and I, for one, look forward to your future posts. "A star has been born". Don't let that go to your head. :agree: :ko: :smokin:

Energy.

However sad it appears, I had 3 male friends in my life. My Son, My Brother, An you, you scrawnny asswipe. Oh well, I was never a man for many words..

Let's have some fun with this thing. I originally had it next to the story about companies not doing the proper thing, well, bbb,bbb,bbb, we all know Peryy Johnson makes their money, so does the mob!

Has anyboby at PJ Headquarters started talking Spanish, or is that for just the "workers that get their 683.87/week. in different money..???????
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goodbye!!!

Jim
Kevin
Randy
Laura
Howard
Carol
Rick

I know I missed a bunch of people that I care about and for that I am sorry

Marc, thanks for the ride!

What's up Al?

Al Dyer said:

Energy.

Let's have some fun with this thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goodbye!!!

Jim
Kevin
Randy
Laura
Howard
Carol
Rick

I know I missed a bunch of people that I care about and for that I am sorry

Marc, thanks for the ride!

Al,

What's so funny about a post from the bottom of the abyss? As Ken has asked, What's up?:( :ko: :smokin:

Energy,

TKS for the comments. Got a LTL though...ain't done no talkin in no chat room before....

I hope to learn from all of you and also toss out any thing I feel might be of help. Just keep me reined in if I loose it.

Y'all have a good'un over the holiday!

Never thought of this place as one of those. I always envisioned a Chat Room full of mindless babbling idiots just looking for a life.
Well, maybeee...................:eek: :ko: :smokin:

I always envisioned a Chat Room full of mindless babbling idiots just looking for a life.

Here, we are looking for a QUALITY life...

Geez energy, you should know that by now!:bonk: