After browsing for awhile, it seems there is a consistent tone of frustration in most threads. It prompts me to post a poll :thedeal:

I love my job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I know that with my skills and abilities, I could excel anywhere (the greeter at Wal-Mart, for example). I have two simple rules for success. First is to do my best under all circumstances. I have a hierarchy that begins with God, then my family, then my profession, then my industry, then my employer and ends with me. I make this hierarchy well known, and have never had a boss attempt to circumvent it. The second rule is actually from the title of a book: “Pain is inevitable, misery is a choice”.

If I do my best, under all circumstance and I deny misery, then I will be joyful in all I do. After all happiness is ruled by the external, joy by the internal.

The motivational speech is now concluded.

And give up all this?

How much does it pay?

tarheel said:

After browsing for awhile, it seems there is a consistent tone of frustration in most threads. It prompts me to post a poll :thedeal:

Your choices show that there is possibly consistent tone of frustration on your end. The only positive choice for someone to express satisfaction is "Deliriously happy". That's a negative answer, also. So, I can't vote. Try "Very satisfied" or "Satisfied". I was delirious once from a reaction to Penicillin.
:ko: :smokin:

Well, that rather depends on the option, doesn't it?

Actually, I'm quite happy doing what I do. Of course I get frustrated every now and then, but show me a profession where that doesn't happen...

Still, that doesn't mean that any other job is out of the question. I'm interested in many other areas, and I could certainly consider a change if something interesting comes up. Why limit yourself? It would have to be good, though...

No, I didn't vote. My alternative isn't there.

/Claes:p

Can you smell my rubber burning.

I get no satisfaction what so ever from this profession.

Jim

I think the question was aimed at the profession, not the ideology.

I would like to think that I will always be a 'quality' person, perfectionist even - maybe thats the problem.

Claes Gefvenberg said:

Well, that rather depends on the option, doesn't it?

Actually, I'm quite happy doing what I do. Of course I get frustrated every now and then, but show me a profession where that doesn't happen...

Still, that doesn't mean that any other job is out of the question. I'm interested in many other areas, and I could certainly consider a change if something interesting comes up. Why limit yourself? It would have to be good, though...

No, I didn't vote. My alternative isn't there.

/Claes:p

Ah, Claes, I wasn't as strong as you. I saw a poll and felt compelled to vote, but I agree with you...my preferred option was not there.

I love what I do. My father exposed me to ISO and Quality during suppertime conversations while I was in high school and instilled in me many of the associated philosophies (e.g., OTIS - On Time and In Spec).

However, do I see myself in Quality for the rest of life? There are many days when I wonder when I will get out for good behaviour and then there are days when I wouldn't consider leaving. As a minimum, I want to expand my skills to involve the EMS (just beginning to do that) and Health & Safety.

As a student pilot though who is being strongly encouraged by her Chief Flying Instructor to go for her commercial license and as someone who wants to get her MBA, there are still many options out there.

I suppose the first thing I should do, though, is grow up....but who wants to do that ?!?!:biglaugh:

I would teach - in the field of stats, preferably.

Ideally, we should all do something different. That means quality has been incorporated to the rest of the functions, and we are not needed. Ah yes, in another life.

Laura M said:

I would teach - in the field of stats, preferably.

Ideally, we should all do something different. That means quality has been incorporated to the rest of the functions, and we are not needed. Ah yes, in another life.

I suppose you're right, Laura, about the function of quality people. I was always told that QA should work with the end goal being that QA has no more work to do...in other words, work to put ourselves out of a job. Rather depressing when I think about it, which is why I want to branch out into fields such as EMS, H&S, and even aerospace standards. I contemplated going into law for a while, but my family promptly informed me that I'd be disowned if I became a lawyer. :D

As for teaching, though, don't think I could handle that. I love the training aspect of my job, but that's different. A few days with a small group, lots of case studies, role playing, and some lecturing. Actual teaching would drive me insane...but the summers off would be appreciated! ;)

. Actual teaching would drive me insane...but the summers off would be appreciated! Don't think of teaching just at a school. I am a consultant/trainer. I train in a variety of locations on a variety of subjects. It is almost like I change employers often. It is the greatest!!!!!:smokin:

[QUOTE] energy said:

Your choices show that there is possibly consistent tone of frustration on your end.



I should add satisfied, but I could not figure out how to add another choice. I noticed a long time ago that very few people retired from the quality field. They either died young or got out and retired from another field. I'm still trying to figure out what that means. I think I know the answer, but I'd rather not contemplate it!
:thedeal:

db said:

Don't think of teaching just at a school. I am a consultant/trainer. I train in a variety of locations on a variety of subjects. It is almost like I change employers often. It is the greatest!!!!!:smokin:

It's all semantics.

I just associate teaching as something different from training. They're similar, don't get me wrong, but the word 'teaching' brings back memories of bumpy bus rides (and the occasional bus-catching-on-fire situation), essays, reports, pop-quizzes, and the oh-so-dreaded homework.

Training, to me, means being in front of a group of professionals at a common location with a common purpose...to learn! But the idea of changing employers frequently appeals to me, as well. Only downside?...I'll never know for certain where the washroom is! :rolleyes:

However, both teaching and training share two major traits in common....communication and enthuasiasm. To be an oustanding teacher or to be an outstanding trainer means you need to have amazing communication skills and a love for the subject about which you are communicating. If you are missing either, your students pay the price.

RCBeyette said:


I suppose the first thing I should do, though, is grow up....but who wants to do that ?!?!:biglaugh:


If you grow up, you will realize you are probably to smart to be in quality! I feel so proud, I made the regular forums contributer list today!:p

Tarheel, you just beat me in posting!:ko:

Congrats on becoming a regular contributer. :)

[QUOTE] Jim Wade said:

A thought: can a person truly 'in Q' ever leave?


You gave way to much thought here Jim, but you are always interesting!
:bonk:

I noticed a long time ago that very few people retired from the quality field. They either died young or got out and retired from another field. I'm still trying to figure out what that means.

I don't believe your statement is entirely correct. The old-time Q's hang around the Cove all day and make silly comments. (Oh my, I've just joined that list!):bonk:

tarheel said:

[QUOTE] energy said:

Your choices show that there is possibly consistent tone of frustration on your end.
I should add satisfied, but I could not figure out how to add another choice. I noticed a long time ago that very few people retired from the quality field. They either died young or got out and retired from another field. I'm still trying to figure out what that means. I think I know the answer, but I'd rather not contemplate it!
:thedeal:

Yes, I'm satisfied. Not as satisfied with my accomplishments. Quality is a tough sell to those not inclined to look at it as something worth while. As Jim said, maybe I should have taken a sales course.
As far as retirees from this profession, I have met many. They usually end up as ineffective consultants swayed by their own, here it goes again, paradigms? When they no longer choose to work for anyone, they become advisors in the field due to their tenure. Hey, how could you last if you weren't on the ball? Just ask me. I'll tell you. Bah Humbug! :rolleyes: :ko: :smokin:

When I gave birth to my first, I decided to get out, thinking motherhood and quality management don't go hand in hand. I tried some other things for a few years until I realized that quality is me. It is part of who and what I am.

Frustrated - many times, but what job doesn't have some level of frustration.

Rewarding - you bet, knowing I have done my job to the best of my abilities.

JMHO

CarolX

Jim,

Funny that you mention about being a salesman when talking about Quality.
I believe it was my previous jobs that help prepare me for the Quality field: I was a salesman, mathematics teacher and a bartender all of which, I believe, help me be a better Quality person the last 20+ years. But i don't know if I could ever go back to any of those jobs again.
I could change jobs to something else for more money, but to what? I have little desire to go back to my former jobs.
So that brings up the question: What does Quality career person go to?

Mooser

I can't really vote because I'm in Operations Engineering so no I wouldn't want to leave the engineering field but part of my responsibilities are quality systems as the process engineer.

I have been in the quality field a long time, I started as a QAI for submarine systems while I was in the Navy. What I enjoy the most about the field is troubleshooting or problem solving. I'm not into the inspection portion, although my group establishes the frequencies and some tolerances. I like to tweek processes and see what happens. To look at it another way is - I really have a different job to come to every day.

"Quality is a habit, not an act" - I forgot who said that - any of you guys want to help me out there?

About the profession - if it pays the bills it's as good as anything else to me, I guess.

The fun in it is to enjoy what you're doing - if you don't, maybe you should get out (I think that should apply to all professions).


qualitymanager

:bonk:

I wouldn't think twice, I'd be gone. Everyday this company wants to side-step the very system it wants me (ME, not US) to write and implement.

My boss just now came by while I was preparing to type this, with an idea to "get-around" something that is proving to be difficult...

Plus, 3 years of A2LA audits and 3 different methods/procedures for measurement uncertainties. Two of those audits were even by the same auditor, two different years, two different ways of doing it...

:ca:

JerryStem said:

:bonk:

I wouldn't think twice, I'd be gone. Everyday this company wants to side-step the very system it wants me (ME, not US) to write and implement.

My boss just now came by while I was preparing to type this, with an idea to "get-around" something that is proving to be difficult...

Plus, 3 years of A2LA audits and 3 different methods/procedures for measurement uncertainties. Two of those audits were even by the same auditor, two different years, two different ways of doing it...

:ca:

Jerry,

My guess is that you're between 29 and 40 years of age. Like aging, the Quality rat race gets easier. The grass sometimes looks greener on the other side of the fence. And, sometimes you step in cow pie up to your knees, when you jump it. It's just a matter of conditioning and ultimate acceptance! :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

Thanks for the info Jim.

So anybody out there disputing Aristotle?


qualitymanager

qualitymanager said:

Thanks for the info Jim.

So anybody out there disputing Aristotle?


qualitymanager

Don't buy it! I play golf all the time, but I'm certainly no good at it. I think I went into quality with a quality mindset. I had to learn the techniques and philsophies, but that didn't change my core beliefs. I know plenty of career quality guys that aren't "quality mindeded" and never will be.
:thedeal:

qualitymanager said:

Thanks for the info Jim.

So anybody out there disputing Aristotle?


qualitymanager


Well, it’s hard to argue with a man who has been dead since 347 B.C. But, I will address the use of this phrase and it’s connection to leaving the Quality field. Excellence does not necessarily mean Quality, as intended to be used in this topic. People in all walks of life can demonstrate the “habit”. The carpenter, plumber, roofer, etc. can be excellent and never even get close to understanding what we call the “Quality” World. This topic is about thinking of the possibility of leaving “Quality”, again, as we know it. True, I know that I had a Quality job done on my roof. But, there were no Quality Managers or Inspectors to make sure that the Roofer did it right. I’m the Customer and I say it was a Quality job. The roofer has made excellence a habit. He didn’t need a Quality Manager to tell him that it was acceptable. Oh, how nice it would be if everyone approached his or her jobs with that kind of attitude. Every time a company has relied on disposing of their “Quality” group, they pay the price. As for ever working yourself out of a job, not in your’ s or my lifetime.

Now, the fun part. How does one know when they have achieved “excellence” in their respective field? It really sounds good. The kind of thing that can only be shared in the Mutual Admiration Society or a Mensa meeting. Is it the look one gets back when they stare in the bedroom mirror? Those beady, bloodshot eyes visible in the rear view mirrors of our automobiles? :vfunny: No, it would have to be the consensus of our co-workers, subordinates and our Supervisors. Only, when no one stands before us with a word of advice that means anything, can one begin to feel (imagine) that “excellence” has become their habit. The problem there is, that person may be the only one who believes it. In other words, you’ll never know if you have achieved excellence, for sure. It's in the eye of the beholder. Another lofty goal dangled before us by an ancient philosopher passed on by those who share the same view that it is achievable.

Call me prejudiced, but a “Quality” person is like the skillful member of a Champion Sculling team who mans the rudder/tiller. Without the cadence and careful control, the team will falter. maybe even go in a circle because the oars on the left were excellent. Oarsmen are excellent in their position but they need focus and some steering to achieve victory. For someone desiring a better life outside the Quality arena, they could always strive to be Number 1 Oar. It’s just not for some of us. With its ups and downs, I never regret not jumping ship.:vfunny:
:ko: :smokin:

That was quite eloquent, Energy... :bigwave:

Unfortunately, you've unmasked yourself... you can never again claim not to be a skilled wordsmith... :D If excellence is indeed in the eye of the beholder - then I think you have achieved excellence... if in nothing else - the attitude you just expressed.

My belief is a little different... not much, but a little...

When I'm at work in my shop, I don't need someone to tell me that the chair I've just made is a "quality" piece of furniture. I feel it from the deep sense of satisfaction I have in knowing that it is the best job I could have done. The satisfaction is enhanced when someone admires the work and it is even more enhanced when someone who understands what it took to make the chair admires the work.

What I wonder is how many people on the shop floor start out with an innate sense of job satisfaction - but loose that satisfaction because no one admires their work?


Smile everyone........ its Friday.... :thedeal:

Tarheel, energy et al.,

OK my recollection (or probably the translation from Greek) came across as "quality" rather than "excellence" so there was room for arguing the semantics - that much I concede.

As for getting out of the field - if "excellence" is your habit it may not translate from one field to another (golf, anyone?)

On the other hand if we view "quality" as per Crosby's "conformance to requirements" it's more likely (I think) that if you change your line of work that you retain your "quality" approach to meeting requirements (whether it is delivering sandwiches on time, or manufacturing to a tolerance of within .01 mm). I'll agree with tarheel that some people never follow this definition & claim to be in the "quality field" (I expect the discussion on when you are really in the "quality field" has occurred in some other thread).

To look at what I think Taguchi was pointing toward (minimum loss to society), I believe that wherever I work & in whatever occupation I'll always keep that focus in mind - how is the product or service that I'm helping to deliver going to affect your children in our time and beyond.

This approach to quality (maybe classifiable as humanitarian) is not just product or output focussed in a narrow sense, but speaks to what I see quality as being able to impact - human civilisation.

If this post has you wondering..... the psychiatriac hospital doctors haven't certified me yet :vfunny:


qualitymanager

During a reorg (aka: downsizing) two months ago, I was moved from Quality Manager to Customer Service Manager. I miss my old job very much and would love to be back doing quality full time. Quality is reasonable and rational, whereas customer service tends to be frantic and often emotional. However, I agree that we bring quality with us wherever we go. I have brought my toolkit with me to the new job and will see if I can't plant a few seeds.

I would move back to quality in an instant if I had the opportunity.

Would I leave Quality Given the Option? Yeah give me a slice of apple pie and half a hotdog and I will change jobs!:bonk: Actually I am very happy in Quality!

RosieA said:

Quality is reasonable and rational,
.

I don't think in 20 yrs I have ever heard anyone call the quality field reasonable and rational. You must truly be a Goddess of Quality. Although, I can certainly understand why you would want to leave customer service, thats a no-win job if ever there was one. :confused:

I find more gray areas in quality than in any other job I have ever attempted. More power to you, with your attitude, you are definitely meant to be a quality person. :thedeal:

Quality is reasonable and rational - it's just the people you have to deal with, sometimes..... :frust:

qualitymanager

I was the Mechanical Quality Engineer at a company that was developing an implantable medical device. About 2 months ago, half the company (including me) was laid off, in part because the device has serious "quality" issues and manufacturing of the product halted.

While the experience with the medical device company was great, I believe that the root cause of the failure to develop a "quality" product may be due to an inability to develop and implement even rudimentary business (hence quality) processes.

The quality engineers recognized the situation about a year ago but were unable to effect the necessary changes throughout the organization.

About a week after the layoff, I started work at another company. My title no longer includes "quality" but I am still firmly commited to the principles of a reasonable quality system.

Woooosh, that would be the sound of me leaving. I am getting sick of butting my head against harder heads :argue: that want a QA system but don't want to do anything about it. :mad:

I feel better now. :lol:

Greg B

This little survey assumes we are actually employed in the field. Since my factory job was lost in 2001 I have been consulting for a reluctant (that's being nice) market. In rural areas (and many metropolitan areas too) manufacturing is on its way out. So, I am trying to head into services and lifestyle businesses.

Some of these already "get it," such as the regulated fields of medicine and banking. Most, however, still think Quality is satisfying a set of characteristics: a hot hamburger. They don't understand what it really is, how we get to the point of supplying a good product or service.

Unfortunately my Phase II grant proposal was not accepted for funding, so this is going to be a very long slog unless someone recognizes the need for Yours Truly in their team. :bigwave:

Interesting survey - yet as I am not "in" quality (never have been) there is no way for me to answer. I suppose I could state I am happy where I am, but there are certain criteria (not just money) by which I would consider leaving my current job. This job will eventually go away as the Hanford site completes its environmental restoration, so it is a matter of considering do I want to wait 'til they make me go, or if I get an "offer I can't refuse" I might leave early.

Steve Prevette
Occupational Safety and Health
Fluor Hanford

and evenings at City University

Technically, aren't we all in Quality? When you read over some of the posts in the Introduction thread and a few others, how many times have we read people wishing that their fellow employees would realize/recognize that Quality is not just limited to the Quality (Assurance/Control) Department? (that's a rhetorical question)

We're all "in" Quality (I guess that's why you used the " ", right, Steve?) whether the business card says that or not. :)

I used to enjoy being an electronics engineer - but got fed up with the low pay and short sighted management style in the UK. Engineers are great at analysing problems and finding solutions - so quality assurance is one way to use my engineering skills. It can be a frustrating job although my last role was operational development and quality management and that suited me fine until company financial problems resulted in mass redundancies.

Now that I'm looking for a new role, I see a range of jobs with the title Quality Manager ranging from £15,000 pa (approx $22,000) to £80,000 pa (approx $115,000). I don't think that the objectives of quality management (improving processes, reducing waste, improving organisational efficiency etc) are generally understood. At the low salary end, QMs are responsibile for inspection and have little influence - at the other end they are key contributors to an organisations strategy, policy and overall effectiveness.

Pity QMs don't have the same respect and pay as HR !

Brian

Technically, aren't we all in Quality?

We're all "in" Quality (I guess that's why you used the " ", right, Steve?) whether the business card says that or not. :)

Good point, so I will respond "I am deliriously happy in quality! " :magic:

I voted happy but also have the problem that I have been "in quality" in a variety of ways. Over the years I was a full time quality manager, other times mainly in quality but with additional responsibilities, other times as a quality professional doing more of the technical work, and other times mainly doing other work with a little quality.

Looking back at the knowledge and experience gained, I have resigned myself to the fact that I have been forever contaminated by the quality bug. At this point, it doesn't make any difference what job I am in, I will support the quality concepts and use the quality tools whenever possible.

It is too bad that society sometimes equate liking your job and doing it well with how much money you make. I will admit that there is no such thing as so much money that a company could throw at me that I would not accept it but I also don't want to run my life around money either.

Bill Pflanz

IT in Trinidad & Tobago....

Good point, so I will respond "I am deliriously happy in quality! " :magic:Some may be surprised that I voted "skid marks."

I freely admit the following:
As I became more and more knowledgeable about Quality Systems, Regulations of Government Agencies, Standards, etc., I realized "I get it."

I don't have those prickly feelings of hairs standing up because I fear some great "unknown." I have the patience and the curiosity to ferret out root cause. I'm basically lazy, so that means I embrace FMEA and mistake proofing with a passion because it's so much easier to do it right the first time.

You readers probably guess that nobody intimidates me and I am very good at persuading folks to follow my lead because I always answer the question for others who ask, whether out loud or implied, "What's in it for me?"

Given all that, I would much rather

act in a play,
tell funny or sad stories,
write a novel,
live on a sailboat in Hawaii
work as a forest ranger or naturalist
shoot pool
play poker
do magic tricks
swim with dolphins
fish for sunfish with my grandchildren
canoe down the river that runs behind my house
watch egrets and Great Blue Herons angle for frogs and fish in the wetland on the other side of the river.
Quality is just a small part our lives, why wouldn't we leave it in a heartbeat if anything else grabbed our interest?

The poetry in the soul of a Quality Manager... Well put Wes

Unfortunately most people think that we're even more boring than accountants

Okay, now that the thread is re-energized, I need to change my vote. I am anticipating getting out of quality, getting out of manufacturing, and getting out of paychecks starting in January. Going back to the simple life. Ahhhh... :D

At the time of my posting the poll showed 16 votes (25%) for each category. Something's fishy about that.

I also liked Wes's summary.

I consider my job in quality to be a means to an end. That is it. It feeds and houses my family and me (I like you people, but I'd rather be with my family than you - no offense :D ). That being said, as long as I'm here, and since I've acquired a fair amount of experience and knowledge in the "Quality" field over the years, I might as well do the best I can and get the greatest amount of joy (and entertainment) out of it.

One thing nice about this field, even if we started a career in something else, the tools of quality give us a marked advantage.

At the time of my posting the poll showed 16 votes (25%) for each category. Something's fishy about that.

I also liked Wes's summary.

I consider my job in quality to be a means to an end. That is it. It feeds and houses my family and me (I like you people, but I'd rather be with my family than you - no offense :D ). That being said, as long as I'm here, and since I've acquired a fair amount of experience and knowledge in the "Quality" field over the years, I might as well do the best I can and get the greatest amount of joy (and entertainment) out of it.

One thing nice about this field, even if we started a career in something else, the tools of quality give us a marked advantage.Yep. Rob "gets it" too!

Rob & Wes,
You have something I wish I had more of... peace. I still get caught in the war with the system in place by management and complained by everyone else (but we know how much they hate to change). Anyway too often I feel like the 'monkey in the middle'. :confused: :argue:

Mooser

Ahh, but peace is such a relative term. :rolleyes: As indicated in the article I submitted on 10 things management does to undermine quality, I too experience very real hassles. But keeping perspective is SO important! You do what you can, and shed the anxiety of the things you can't do much about. Don't sweat the petty things (and don't pet the sweaty things either).

:topic: I once bought my wife the book "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" (Guys: I'm not recommending that approach). She threw the book at me (literally), and scowled until she found out her best friend had read it - THEN IT WAS OK! Go figure.

You do what you can, and shed the anxiety of the things you can't do much about. Don't sweat the petty things (and don't pet the sweaty things either).You too? That is very sound advice... :agree: ...And I keep telling my wife the same thing. She admits I'm right (Not an everyday occurence, I assure you... :rolleyes: ) but tells me that she is quite unable to stop worrying... Oh, well.

/Claes

:topic: I once bought my wife the book "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" (Guys: I'm not recommending that approach). She threw the book at me (literally), and scowled until she found out her best friend had read it - THEN IT WAS OK! Go figure.

Also :topic: A coworker was just telling me about a story in the Wall Street Journal about great gifts to buy for your wife and it recommended lingerie. A letter to the editor was just written shortly after about a guy (about 50 years old) who decided to take the advice and bought his wife some sexy underwear.

His wife threw it back at him and said if she wanted to wear dental floss she would buy her own.

Do you want to see if that advice would work better for you?

I already decided that with 27 years invested, it would be too costly to risk my marriage to give it a try. :lol:

Bill Pflanz

If you would have posted this survey when I was at my last company the answer would have been IN A HEARTBEAT but the new company that I am working for seems to get it so I am happy!!!

I vote the word 'deliriously' should be stricken from the record.

I mean, I'm not about to 'leave' quality (I actually trying hard to 'enter' it). But how does the word 'deliriously' possibly describe this field.

I just walked into a chief engineer to chat a lot on some process conditions and I noticed the recent addition of a home-made button entitled 'ISO SUCKS'. such is life. you have people that don't care and people that don't cooperate. Chemistry is a tad friendlier this way -atoms are amiable enough little guys, and even the computers/instruments seem friendlier then getting someone to really change anything when issued a corrective action request.

Moreover after herculien efforts, there isn't a herculien reward (monetarily).

I'm seeing signs everyone that demings and jurans influence seem to slipping. And if that ain't it, perhaps even ISO itself will follow TQM's lead into the acronyms industry use to believe in.

challenged-yes, and I have my reasons to continue (and even expand), but definitely NOT delirious. that is not delirious in a good sence.

J

But sometimes being delirious is not such a bad thing.....


Craig H.

It's all about the Benjamins!$$$$$$$$$ :biglaugh:

I voted that Iam deliriously happy being in Quality function. I have been in Quality for 18 years now and I do not have any regrets. I was an Operations manager for 2 years in between. But, still had Quality function under the portfolio.

Being In Quality offers responsibility to represent the Customer for the product and processes. Internal process owners are supposed to treat their next process as an internal customer. But, I think these concepts are ideal, cultural based. :argue:

It comes down to the Quality function to ensure that the process is effective? Or the Products are acceptable to customer?

Well take the Scenario;
Quality department is a Support function. Yes, we add value ( atleast we strongly feel) to the products and processes.

For those who strongly feel that their Quality department is a value add to the organization, be a devil's advocate and critically analyze activity by activity; deliverable by deliverable.

Then try asking a Question to yourself:
If your organization decides to close down the Quality department completely and transfer Quality functions to manufacturing and process engineering, Do you think the organization will come to a stand still without your department?

This is a painful, yet practical answer, NO.

Three fourth of the poll still does not prefer Quality!

We, as Quality professionals are very vulnerable during difficult times of the organizations. Organizations cannot get away from not doing Quality Functions. Customers will lose confidence. But these functions can be transferred to related departments like Manufacturing and Process engineering and the organization can still run.

These are my thoughts.

Govind.

Its my first day at this forum, and i never thought that people outside egypt may be same as inside here and how bored they are from working with quality sometimes... but i have my FIXED opinion about this issue, actually , about WHAT WORK IS and why we work, regardless the money issue, if you are getting paid teh same from two jobs, which one you will select?

for me, i will choose the one that my effect on it will be higher, my achievements will be more effective and my role will make bigger differences, dont you all believe that Quality Engineer is one of the most effective persons in his place? dont you believe that a change you made in your organization may change a whole cultural minds and a whole trend of your company and way effective changes in your companies profites and incomes?

to be working with all departments.. grapping all the experience from every one and MUST understand all what is going arround you everywhere, wow, i cant even tell, we can bear the paper work, and the yelling of some people that hates rules and changes, and the pain in the back from too much sitting on our disks just to watch a Quality system rising the company from a level to a higher level

wish you all best of luck in your careers

I just dont see what is so exciting about quality? When I first started I loved the challenge but after 10 or more years of getting beat up by customers, and kissing :ca: I wonder to myself is this it? I feel more like a used car salesman. How do you get out of a rut like this?

I enjoy quality immensely, but would leave it completely given the right opportunity, which in my mind at least would be sitting on a stool placing screws on widgets 8 hours a day. I wish I was joking, but I'm not. The stress level inherent in either Quality or maybe it's just this industry is starting to wear on me. I'm very good at what I do and I actually DO enjoy doing it, but when saying "Welcome to Walmart" 8 hours a day starts to sound attractive, maybe it's time to think career change.

Would I leave quality field...or just quit being a quality manager?

If someone gave me enough money right now to open an icecream shop, I'd be there in a heartbeat! Of course, I'd take everything that I have learned about customer satisfaction and put it to use. So, in essence, I would not be leaving the quality field, just putting it to use where I would be guaranteed 100% commitment, 100% of the time. lol!

Being a Thruway toll taker has appealed to me for a long time, Steel.

It's just tough to stay satisfied with a job that involves being the front man for the company on every problem that comes along. QA people face a lot of negatives every day. We never have the thrill of booking a really big order, or the rush of selling a new customer on your company. Our wins are quiet ones that no one notices because problems DON'T happen when we're really good.

The one thing that I most love about QA is teaching people how to do problem solving or reducing the little problems that add up to frustration for people. Unfortunatly, I'm not getting to do a lot of that on my current job...too busy mopping up the messes caused by a serious lack of management commitment. :(

Being a Thruway toll taker has appealed to me for a long time, Steel.

It's just tough to stay satisfied with a job that involves being the front man for the company on every problem that comes along. QA people face a lot of negatives every day. We never have the thrill of booking a really big order, or the rush of selling a new customer on your company. Our wins are quiet ones that no one notices because problems DON'T happen when we're really good.

The one thing that I most love about QA is teaching people how to do problem solving or reducing the little problems that add up to frustration for people. Unfortunatly, I'm not getting to do a lot of that on my current job...too busy mopping up the messes caused by a serious lack of management commitment. :(
Amen to that. I too spent tooooo much time getting us out of meeses that should have never happen if management was on the same page as me.
Mooser. :agree1:

As you probably remember from some previous posts, my company was recently "mostly" bought out by another company. I was appalled - though not particularly surprised - to see that neither company paid any real attention to the Quality function in the process of deciding who gets what, who does what, etc. It was clearly an afterthought. It's no fun being a "necessary evil." So yup, I'm sending out resumes and looking for a new career track, away from Quality. Which is a crying shame, 'cause I'm **** good at what I do. I'm one of those odd people (like lots of the Covers!) who just "gets" what a quality system is all about and what a good one should look like.

oh well..... sigh..... thems the breaks.

Steel, what are you thinking about doing? I'm at the same point you are. I am ready to get the **** out of manufacturing for good. I'm so tired of fighting with management about a 32 cent cost reduced part that nets us $6400. in extra profit but causes a $600,000. return.

I just don't know what else to do, or how to get an interview when my resume doesn't look anything like the job I'm applying for.

Any thoughts?

Rosie, I'm looking at anything that sounds interesting. I've got some resumes out there for manufacturing supervision, sent one regarding a tech writing job, even sent some out to jobs I won't mention here for fear of getting laughed off the board, but I'm really trying to keep my mind open. I've been tailoring the resume I send to the position I'm applying for, leaning it more or less away from quality as seems fitting for whatever I'm applying for - some "creative license" with the details without tripping over the ethical line!

Actually, the job I'm LITERALLY praying for is an ad in the local paper to work for the State as an Ombudsman, inspecting nursing homes for compliance and investigating complaints from family members. I think it'd be a nice blend of my Quality/Systems background and my sensitivity to the elderly (especially since none of us are that far away from BEING one!).

Good luck, Rosie... I feel your pain. I'd say "they'll miss us when we're gone" but I think you and I both know that's not true.

You clods have it easy...try to convince line supervisors and their leadership that you can get more production out of folks if they aren't on restricted duty because of work related injuries. DUH!!!

It got to a point at a recent meeting that I told all the management folks to write on a list all of the laws and regulations they choose not to comply with, sign it with me as a witness, and I wouldn't bother them any more. Talk about blank stares :lmao:

We ladies prefer to be called "Clodesses", Randy.

Steel, I think you'd be a great Ombudsman, and the Nursing Home world really needs the oversight. My 90 year old mother was in one for 6 weeks a few years back, doing rehab on a fractured knee. The stuff that happened in 6 weeks made both if us have a horror of her ever having to go back. I'm quite sure that she'd commit suicide before she ever went back.

Good luck to us!

I was appalled - though not particularly surprised - to see that neither company paid any real attention to the Quality function in the process of deciding who gets what, who does what, etc. It was clearly an afterthought.
"though not particularly surprised" is the operative phrase here

just my :2cents:

if somebody thought about how anything would affect quality or the quality system, I'd probably die of a heart attack. would that be a recordable/lost time incident? :mg:

It would be "lost time" but it would take a while before anyone realized it - like I said, afterthought! :bonk:

You clods have it easy...try to convince line supervisors and their leadership that you can get more production out of folks if they aren't on restricted duty because of work related injuries. DUH!!!

It got to a point at a recent meeting that I told all the management folks to write on a list all of the laws and regulations they choose not to comply with, sign it with me as a witness, and I wouldn't bother them any more. Talk about blank stares :lmao:

That's a good move, Randy. In my past, if reason, morals, laws, and facts didn't convince folks of what they should do, I refused to sign-off and I gave the Top Dogs the opportunity to sign-off on it personally. That usually got their attention -- but not always.

As a thought -

If it weren't for all the incompentent people out there, most of us wouldn't have a job.

and probably more politically correctly -

"How would they know to do anything different?" - Dr. Deming

Steel, what are you thinking about doing? I'm at the same point you are. I am ready to get the **** out of manufacturing for good. I'm so tired of fighting with management about a 32 cent cost reduced part that nets us $6400. in extra profit but causes a $600,000. return.

I just don't know what else to do, or how to get an interview when my resume doesn't look anything like the job I'm applying for.

Any thoughts?

I am enjoying this most entertaining thread. But, what we really need is an incentive to stay that derives itself from a serious national leadership for "quality".I recall, as some of you might, an article appearing in (I think) the Washington Post about the poor state of product quality at a Chinese factory that made regrigerators. At the time fridges were of the most sought after consumer products and customer complaints had reached a crescendo. Solution: according to the article, top and key managers were asesmbled before the entire workforce and shot!

Now, perhaps there is hope for not long after that article appeared the rise of work outsourced to China and the relocation of European and American factories to mainland China began. So, if the CEOs of those companies then knew of that article, surely they MUST be serious about quality! Given such political support, maybe then you would want to stay in Quality. (Should the Baldrige Award have a similar counterpart whereby the national makers of shoddy goods are assembled on the White House lawn and shot?)

(I have a copy of that old article somewhere - when I find it, I will give more details so that you can make it a central part of the CI and motivation programs in your firms) :lol:

If it weren't for all the incompentent people out there, most of us wouldn't have a job. Or perhaps a different kind of job? Maybe we could finally work with what we should have been doing all along, but never seem to have the time for: Improvement... setting the bar at hights previously not seen?

Then again... Alas, you're probably right, and maybe for the better. Removing all the incompentence out there would probably mean that those few still around wouldn't be human anymore...:mg:

/Claes

Solution: according to the article, top and key managers were asesmbled before the entire workforce and shot!

I'm ready to shoot myself. Who needs the CEO to do that?

I'm ready to shoot myself. Who needs the CEO to do that?My take:
All unhappy jobs are attributable to management (either by failing to supply proper resources or by making bad decisions about priorities.)

Regardless of the degree of hardship in any position, we can usually find a ray of light for ourselves. We need to approach the hardships like any other quality problem.

Sometimes, the problem is a narrow one caused by one or two individuals in positions of power. Investigation usually shows the primary problem is the individual in power is ignorant of the ramifications of his actions (or lack of actions.) If the root cause is really ignorance, it may be alleviated with "judicious" education - judicious, because no one wants to be the messenger executed for bringing bad news to the king.

In rarer cases, the roadblocks are created by individuals who know the long-term ramifications of their actions, but choose them because their personal agendas are to show short term results and leave. The best solution is to contact lots of headhunters and use creativity to get the roadblock hired away.

The last resort is to blow the whistle on an incompetent or otherwise nonperforming manager. Real caution is necessary here - revenge or vengeance does NOT improve the job conditions for the whistleblower. In over 40 years, I have NEVER seen a situation where a "whistleblower" who points out the incompetence of a superior-ranked employee gains benefits by staying with the company. (some do ok with percentage of lawsuits or fines, but most whistleblowers have a prolonged "bad" period. [advice: if you blow the whistle, do it anonymously!])

In many cases (not the majority), the problem is a systemic one:

the business is becoming obsolete with inadequate resources to change products or services
outside competition is eroding markets
the company is "in play" and energy and resources are spent dealing with takeovers or mergers
Most job coaches would counsel looking for new employment if caught in a systemic situation.

I hate quality!!! As a job anyway. It seems that most of it is common sense or at least should be and yet they pick or hire some poor sap to do a job so they have a scapegoat for management shortcutting systems of thought that are basic. I have been at my current position for almost two years putting together their quality system on my own. I have had no help from anyone at the company (they did bring in a consultant who spent sometime giving me some input but he was way overcomplicating things so I did not ask him back after a few visits). Can I have a tissue?
There should in reality (my opinion) be no need for a quality department except for the potential exception of statistical evaluation because some do not have the brain power.
I can not wait until I get out of this thankless profession. It will be soon. I am raising support to do long term missions.
I am done venting. Careful the skid marks are still hot.

Mark

There should in reality (my opinion) be no need for a quality department except for the potential exception of statistical evaluation because some do not have the brain power.I agree. In the best of worlds the Q dep. should be unnecessary. In the world we live in, alas... ...different story, I'm afraid.

/Claes

There should in reality (my opinion) be no need for a quality department except for the potential exception of statistical evaluation because some do not have the brain power.
MarkIn point of fact, I have seen several operations (including one of my own) where the Quality "department" was primarily a knowledge base and overseer of the measuring instruments and Standards. The folks in the Quality Department trained and evaluated capability of operators who performed and recorded their own in-process inspections. First Article Inspections were essentially "redundant" events. The operator who made First Article would do all the measurements of characteristics according to a Control Plan previously designed and agreed to with operator, Quality department, design engineer, and customer. When done, he would find another operator to do a redundant inspection with his own (the other operator's) instruments. If there was a discrepancy between readings not accountable with "normal variation," then, and only then, would Quality department perform a third FAI. The check sheet with the results of the two operators' readings went to customer along with tagged sample. If everyone was happy with readings, production continued.

The good part - every operator had more pride in finished product and picked up important skills in measuring, SPC, customer-interaction. Customers were encouraged to ask questions directly of operators, who gave direct and honest answers. Quality department folk were considered partners and mentors instead of police.

The bad part - a much smaller Quality department.

Evolution of the concept - operators asked for and got direct read instruments which were wired into computers to eliminate hand entry of readings. Operators asked for and got bar code scanners to deal with travelers with each order. As production equipment became more and more computerized, operators asked for and got manufacturing cells which gave each operator more control over a larger part of each product. As operators became used to working with manufacturing cells, they asked for and received training in design of experiments so they could optimize their production. As all these things evolved, operator turnover dropped from 60% per year to less than 10%. Dollar production per man hour doubled in two years and doubled again in the next two years.

MRB (Material Review Board) was multi-discipline and operators were empowered to call a meeting of MRB any time to clarify suspect material whether incoming, in-process, or outgoing. They acted like owners and customers simultaneously!

We created a special conference room with chalkboards, screens, TV and VCRs, and PowerPoint projectors just for the operators to use as a meeting, training, and interview room. MRB members came from all over the plant to meet in their conference room.

Operators went to trade shows and machine tool showroom demonstrations. They interviewed and cross-examined tooling representatives about new materials and shapes. They demanded and got samples to use in their DOE. Finding a willing and knowledgeable audience, the tooling salesmen came with new ideas and innovations. One such collaboration resulted in a new production design of an existing component which had been traditionally made in three operations on different machines now dropped off complete from one machine, raising the Cpk from 1.3 to 2.5 - all done by a collaboration of operators and tooling salesmen.

Best part - without any emphasis on the part of management, production department had a remarkable increase in cleanliness.

If I had my druthers:
I'd like to see the inspection business disappear from the Quality department, but elevate the inspectors to trainers and ensure EVERY organization had a department of Quality trainers to train the entire organization.

On a positive note:

"Quality been very, very good to me"

as I pack up to go off on an Alaska cruise.

every operator had more pride in finished product and picked up important skills in measuring, SPC, customer-interaction. Customers were encouraged to ask questions directly of operators, who gave direct and honest answers. Quality department folk were considered partners and mentors instead of police
Wes

What a great result to hear about. Three cheers. I enjoy the Cove but overall I find it pretty negative. You restored my faith in Quality.

:applause:

I too have had a "Change the World" experience in quality.

Would you care to share how you made this happen?

I am willing to bet that a passionate and visionary leader factored heavily in this success.

If you did this without management support, please, please tell us how.

Caster

Wes

What a great result to hear about. Three cheers. I enjoy the Cove but overall I find it pretty negative. You restored my faith in Quality.

:applause:

I too have had a "Change the World" experience in quality.

Would you care to share how you made this happen?

I am willing to bet that a passionate and visionary leader factored heavily in this success.

If you did this without management support, please, please tell us how.

Caster
The apology:
Somehow I missed this response by Caster. I apologize. It is a glitch of the software that polls keep popping up as "new" entries each time someone enters the poll, but not a new message. On busy days, I tend to skip over polls for that reason when an old poll comes to the top again.

The answer:
The scenario listed above was part of a multi-year program. Back in 1990, I was fretting during early retirement from my previous life as an investment banking executive.

An old acquaintance who had purchased a number of machine shops and consolidated them into one location called in a panic and begged for help. He was a tremendous salesman, but an incredibly lousy businessman who was in deep financial trouble - so deep, he had no idea how deep.

When I showed up for a visit, the place was in a shambles, dirty, with a messy underequipped office, creditors calling, etc. He literally begged me to "save him or shoot him to put him out of his misery."

I agreed, for a substantial piece of the action, to come out of retirement and turn the business around ("re-engineering" before the term got over-used and became a bad taste in everyone's mind.) We intended to groom the company for one or both of us to exit by selling off to the employees down the road via an ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan.)

I had free rein and lots of experience from my investment banking days in remaking a company to make a good impression on new investors. We had little cash and lots of debts, but I was creative and savvy in dealing with money and credit to get best value for my dollar.

We dumped all low profit business and concentrated only on high profit, high tech, niche markets. We dumped outmoded equipment and brought in new, high output computer-driven models. We cleaned up the place so it sparkled like a machinery showroom. Every single person we hired and every piece of equipment we bought or leased had to pay its way and generate a big ROI.

Every technique in Quality, business building, marketing, operations, "partnering" and outsourcing I could read or learn about was considered with a FMEA-type approach before adopting or implementing. Instead of seeking benchmarks to model our organization after, we resolved to BE THE BENCHMARK. We took to mistake proofing in a big way and literally thrilled prospects, suppliers, and customers when we shared our ideas with them.

We packaged product to exactly match production quantities for a single shift at a customer's plant to make his life easier in tracking inventory. We strove to have Quality achieve "direct to production" status, bypassing incoming inspection, resulting in lower soft costs for us and customer, offsetting any increase in "hard costs."

We engaged in lots of concurrent engineering with customers (an adjunct of Contract Review) which made us an integral part of the customer's team so we by-passed the "auction" process for business and entered into "negotiated" pricing instead. The soft costs saved by us and customer justified higher hard costs.

Always, always, I kept my eye on the bottom line, but realized we had to spend money to make money. We made sure we were the best paying account for all our suppliers and constantly kept our pool of suppliers "in the loop" about upcoming projects.

We did everything we could to be customer-centric and empowered everyone in our organization to deal with any and every customer, "owning" the situation until it was resolved. Even our janitor was empowered to answer the phone and access a customer's account on the computer to answer a question or to go out in the shop and turn the call over to the actual operator working on the customer's order. We empowered everyone because it made economic sense to do so, giving us a solid reputation as the "can do" folks who gave answers, not excuses.

Alas, my fellow stockholder and friend got a terminal disease and died. His disease was an exclusion in the key man insurance policy because of a family history. His heirs had no interest in selling off as a going business to an ESOP, which meant taking back a substantial amount of bonds from employees as payment, and I was forced to sell off accounts and the machines and personnel to run the accounts for ready cash.

Truth be told, as good as I was at running the machining business, I never really liked it. I only liked the "action" of perceiving and solving problems.

Unfortuanately, the answers listed for the poll don't fit any of my responses.

I'm not 'deliriously happy' in Quality, but I do enjoy my job (at least most of the time). I've turned down other job offers, for more money, to continue doing what I do, where I do.

On the other hand, I've also applied for a position with LESS money, which would entail commuting daily (I -=LOATHE=- commuting) simply because it was a position I truly wanted, and thought that I would do well at.

I worked for a number of years in the Merchant Marine (ending as 2nd mate, working towards my Master's Foreign Going), and would happily go back to that in a minute, if I could get some reasonable assurance of job stability.

...if I could get some reasonable assurance of job stability.


What's THAT?

OH!! "Job Stability" ... I remember now, it's what my father and grandfather used to talk about ... disappeared somewhere in the 80's, right? :(

Well, job stability is a kind of funny thing. In my current position, I am confident that, unless I screw up, I will have a job for as long as the company continues to exist.

When I worked on the boats, however, it was a unionized position; I could be bumped by someone who got laid off from a totally different company. And with the ongoing reduction in the Great Lakes fleet (to say nothing of our lack of a deep-sea fleet) the jobs just aren't there any more.

I could go on and on and on about it...how we priced ourselves out of existence, the infighting among unions, etc etc, but it would bore most of you.

But gods, do I miss it :(

I will bail on the quality job once I hone my poker skills. You can watch me late nights on the Travel Channel on the World Poker Tour.

I would not leave the quality world. Since quality can be applied in almost any sector you can change jobs and still have a great quality time!!

I have always enjoyed working in Quality Assurance. I think that it's because I continue to believe that we are truly "Here to Help". It's the helping that makes it fun.
Unfortunately, many people in other organizations see the Quality group as a hindrance or a roadblock to some kind of shortcut they are trying to take. That makes it frustrating...when you know personally, that you are trying to do your best to allow flexibility and change, while protecting the integrity of the quality system.
Anyway, I voted that I would leave for more money. That wouldn't necessarily be my answer of choice...but was the best of the four. I have a great job, lots of variety and challenges and make pretty good money. What I have come to hate more and more, is the beaurocracy and the "one-way" show of respect and loyalty. Our management has come to believe that they are entirely responsible for the success of the company and that the rest of us are all expendible. We are supposed to respect and be loyal to them, but the favor is not returned. So....I'm outta here as soon as my new business takes off :biglaugh: (knock on wood). A lot of other people are jumping ship as well. I don't know who's going to do the work when all of us expendible people are gone....but I'm sure that management will figure it out. :lol:

Didn't vote, but it reminds me of the old story about a guy who ran into an old college buddy of his at the circus. The guy was shoveling elephant dung. His friend expressed surprise. "You graduated at the same time as me, with the same degree, and I've got a great job and I'm making a lot of money. How come you haven't found a better job?" His friend didn't hesitate before replying, "What, and quit show business??"

Your choices show that there is possibly consistent tone of frustration on your end. The only positive choice for someone to express satisfaction is "Deliriously happy". That's a negative answer, also. So, I can't vote. Try "Very satisfied" or "Satisfied". I was delirious once from a reaction to Penicillin.
:ko: :smokin:

Opportunity to "Get Out"? SEE YA! (Skid Marks) You can only go through life being the "Bad Guy" or the "Whipping Boy" for so long.
It's hard not to grow weary in well doing.
In a culture where Quality is the ENEMY of Manufacturing / Production the days are long and the life span is short.

I also did not see a choice that suits my condition.

That would be, "Not if I could help it."

I am pretty sure by now I will be leaving this field as I know it behind, as there are so few places for me to use most of the skills discussed in this forum. I'll probably let all my certs lapse, and my membership to ASQ because I feel like none of it has applied to me for years.

I will continue to lurk and offer insight/input on what I know best, training and managing/measuring human performance for all-around value. I'll always be a Deminguite, so my passion will always be there--I just might not get paid for it unless I can do something like eventually become a school principal and employ the great things I know in that venue. And this would be a very good thing to do, as public education could surely use what we know.

Never give up!

I am pretty sure by now I will be leaving this field as I know it behind, as there are so few places for me to use most of the skills discussed in this forum. I'll probably let all my certs lapse, and my membership to ASQ because I feel like none of it has applied to me for years.

I will continue to lurk and offer insight/input on what I know best, training and managing/measuring human performance for all-around value. I'll always be a Deminguite, so my passion will always be there--I just might not get paid for it unless I can do something like eventually become a school principal and employ the great things I know in that venue. And this would be a very good thing to do, as public education could surely use what we know.

Jennifer!...you surprise me! :) Of all the people who visit and participate in the Cove, I certainly did not expect to read such a post from you! (and I'm this is a nice, concened way)

You make "Quality" sound like a narrow field and, doing what you do, I would have thought that you'd be one of the more vocal in our group about how Quality is beyond just product characteristics and how it goes beyond just the Customer.

Training and managing/measuring human performance has "Quality" stamped all over it! Perception. Satisfaction. Effectiveness. Improvement. Are these not words fundamental to what "Quality" is?

Quality is not just a dirty world used in Manufacturing, followed with a spit to the floor and a crossing of one's self. :)

We're seeing Health Care and Education increasingly becoming aware of the tools that Manufacturing has known about for some and, more than that, actually using them to their benefit!

Do we ever truly leave Quality? Or do we, to be more specific, simply adapt to its concepts, embracing them in our daily routines and advocating them in our attempts to improve?

Jennifer!...you surprise me! :) Of all the people who visit and participate in the Cove, I certainly did not expect to read such a post from you! (and I'm this is a nice, concened way)

You make "Quality" sound like a narrow field and, doing what you do, I would have thought that you'd be one of the more vocal in our group about how Quality is beyond just product characteristics and how it goes beyond just the Customer.

Training and managing/measuring human performance has "Quality" stamped all over it! Perception. Satisfaction. Effectiveness. Improvement. Are these not words fundamental to what "Quality" is?

Quality is not just a dirty world used in Manufacturing, followed with a spit to the floor and a crossing of one's self. :)

We're seeing Health Care and Education increasingly becoming aware of the tools that Manufacturing has known about for some and, more than that, actually using them to their benefit!

Do we ever truly leave Quality? Or do we, to be more specific, simply adapt to its concepts, embracing them in our daily routines and advocating them in our attempts to improve?

No, we never truly leave Quality as long as we feel strongly about it. We just go underground sometimes.

It has been a struggle to shift out of manufacturing and into another place where I don't have to stop being who I have become.

I headed for education knowing that there is much to do here. Some have succeeded wildly in their Quality efforts. Most others appear to be operating within a well-established set of parameters that don't include quality as we know it.

Everyone who understands the subject's premise agrees that Quality within Maine's manufacturing (that which remains, ever less) is at least 15 years behind that of other areas' progression. That simply means few people here understand what we are all talking about. There are still jobs for quality professionals, but vastly fewer and many have left the field here so as to work at all. Last I heard, my last employer's ISO coordinator was selling pocket pagers to make a living. Other colleagues are going into things like landscaping and construction work. One does what one must.

Meanwhile, non-manufacturing industries are indeed making a good deal of progress in quality management, here as well as elsewhere. I have also noted that in all cases I have encountered (certainly not all there have been, to be fair) these industries are not using quality in the same way as manufacturing does; their quality professionals are seldom referred to as Quality and they are already embedded in the industry. That is, I have never seen a medical facility hire someone from outside the medical field to do this work. The typical qualification demand has been RN. Finance also wants insiders to do their quality programs, even as much as they resemble what we know.

And while one of us could argue that Quality is transferrable and an industry learning curve is scalable, to the people doing the hiring this is not so. And since they are doing the hiring, their say so is the one that matters.

Now I hasten to be clear that I am passionate, but obviously never aggressive enough--or done a good enough at self-marketing, or what have you--to have succeeded in transitioning from a different field straight into a leadership position, or even in support to the point of my considerable capability. So perhaps the balme is entirely my own, that I never found placement in the many places I looked. I decided I might be aiming too high.

So, I do it the old fashioned way. Starting at the bottom again, with a degree in technical education, I got my first education job as a sub and now as a teacher's aide. Soon I will certify as an Industrial Arts teacher and from there I can develop an education professional identity. After 3 years of classroom teaching (and I can get a business club going as well, perhaps using some excellent materials from University of Nebraska's NxLeveL program) and Master's in Education Administration I can press for Assistant Principal positions and use what I know to influence the system from within.

This is why I say "Stealth quality versus no quality."

Nonetheless the Quality Progress magazines almost never contain anything that connects with me anymore, and no one I have met in the education field (aside from university professors) knows what a Quality Engineer is. Even the Education group newsletters from ASQ look foreign, much beyond most of what is happening within my area. So, why stay certified in a specialty that clearly aims at manufacturing?

I do not want to sound depressed, but I do wish transitioning didn't take so long.

I now understand the stealth quality reference....and applaud you for it! The educational system won't know what hit 'em! You go, girl! :applause:

I now understand the stealth quality reference....and applaud you for it! The educational system won't know what hit 'em! You go, girl! :applause:

Ha! Thankee, we will see. Never give up!

The educational system won't know what hit 'em! You go, girl! :applause:
I'll second that, Jennifer! I'm a big fan!!

Me - I've been doing some considering lately. I'm no where near ready to leave my current job - but I have plans to go into sales. Perhaps I can keep my current employer as a "client" and still take care of the internal audits, document writing, metrics, etc. They could replace the purchasing agent with someone at a lot less than what I make - and I could come in a couple of days a week. It would be ideal if they will let me go into sales here...but if not, I'll go sell someone else's stuff.

I would not leave the quality world. Since quality can be applied in almost any sector you can change jobs and still have a great quality time!!

I will eventually leave the quality profession. Death and retirement will see to that. When will either of those occur? (Not too soon, some of my habitual detractors probably think!) ;)

It would be ideal if they will let me go into sales here...but if not, I'll go sell someone else's stuff.
I was trying to decide whether the "gatekeeper" or "resume" thread were more appropriate for this question - feel free to move it or perhaps a new thread.

What would you suggest for someone who wants to move into other areas, but still work for the same company. Your current employer does not want to go through the pain of replacing you because "you do such a good job". :rolleyes:

I was trying to decide whether the "gatekeeper" or "resume" thread were more appropriate for this question - feel free to move it or perhaps a new thread.

What would you suggest for someone who wants to move into other areas, but still work for the same company. Your current employer does not want to go through the pain of replacing you because "you do such a good job". :rolleyes:


Perhaps, Cari, one might probe the company's statement. Being someone who does a "good job" does not always infer that same person is considered by management as "a valued member of the team who we cannot afford to lose."

If moving to another position necessitates obtaining appropriate credentials, then it is worth working towards them. Of course, you would need to decide where your heart lies i.e what is the position you WANT, and then work towards it. (I am not trying to be trite.)

Sometimes quality people can show they are sufficiently adept, expert and knowledgeable in an area such that management sees (eventually) you can deliver a greated added value by moving to that position than in remaining in "quality". But, if your company does not concern itself with assessing the added value its people do or could offer, and maximising it, it has serious problems, in this competitive world.

Of course, if the company is such that disregards your personal career ambitions and skill set, is it really a company deserving your efforts and loyalty? Likewise if the company claims "its people are its most valuable asset" and that it is "an investor in people", should it not take seriously your desires and support you? Once again, if not...

What would you suggest for someone who wants to move into other areas, but still work for the same company. Your current employer does not want to go through the pain of replacing you because "you do such a good job". :rolleyes:

One thing that has worked for me is to do work for others even if they aren't in your organization. If you have a contact in another organization and you know they are working on a project you could contribute to, see what you can do to get authorization (or take authorization or create authorization) to work on the project. Granted, you have to be sure it doesn't negatively impact existing assigned work, and if you company financial system may require you to charge time to that other group, but it is amazing what a few success stories can lead to.

For me, I officially report to safety and health, but probably at least half my time is spent outside of safety and health, and I even now have some work orders from other companies at Hanford that Fluor Hanford is allowing me to work on.

Cari, my usual approach has been to evaluate what a company says versus what they do.
For example, when I joined my current company, they stated that they had a policy to publish job opening to internal candidates first, before going external. Initially they did so. More recently, they've filled the position of EAF manager, QA manager, electrical engineering manager, 1 technical (metallurgical) customer support position, 2 technical sales positions, and 3 QC tech positions without internal posting. Some of them would be a step down, some I have no interest/background to pursue, and some I would have liked to be considered. These are positions within the last year, and we're a small company - about 170 employees.
I try to determine when the disparity between policy and reality become too great, and take action at that point. Usually the action has been to look for another place of employment. In hindsight, I think I've done better than 50/50 on deciding to move. Of the companies/plants I left, 3 no longer exist, 1 went bankrupt but did reorganize, and 1 totally eliminated the department/ plant in which I worked.

Ruts exist, and people get tired of being in them. If there is no relief such as the special projects described by Steve, your good people leave. Hope you're able to sell your employer on a switch to sales, so they can keep your experience handy for a transition.

Yep. Sad to say, folks, PDCA is a good system to follow when you look at your job status. In today's climate, more and more top bosses say to the lower echelon, "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?" Just consider the matter of the "disappearing pension." It happens because of fraud (Enron), mismanagement (KMart & Sears), external forces (United and other major airlines), but the effect on the worker is the same:
:magic: POOF! and the pension goes up in smoke, despite all the rosy promises, and even partial payments made to the workers.
Every factor of your job is ALWAYS on the line. You have to remain vigilant and sometimes confer with others to see if your perception is correct when you think you are getting the short end of the stick. Once you are sure, then ACT! How you act (fight, leave, or lay down) is up to you.

I'm actually entertaining a job offer TODAY that will take me out of Quality systems and into training in the mental health field - my degree is actually in Psychology. It looks attractive next to a building level of frustration with doing quality in an environment where it is no longer really supported (major management change a year ago). And I honestly don't think it's just here that support for quality systems is degrading. I hear more and more people talking about quality systems just being a great big game. If I ask myself if this place would continue the quality system if the Big3 came out tomorrow and said it's no longer REQUIRED, the answer is no - they'd drop the quality system before the day was out. And while I know that's not true of everyone or every place, it is unfortunately quite true in much of manufacturing. That's more and more debilitating to work under that realization.

sigh..... :(

I'm actually entertaining a job offer TODAY that will take me out of Quality systems and into training in the mental health field ...

Being around us also gave you lots of practice! :rolleyes: But seriously, if you go, you don't have to be a stranger.

:lmao:
You're right... if nothing else my many years in manufacturing have REALLY prepared me to work in the mental health field!!! :bonk:

my degree is actually in Psychology
Steel,
You know what they say . . Those who need it the most are the ones that go into it!!!!
I can say that , my first degree was a BS in Clinical Psyc.

Sounds like we crazy people sure know where to find like-minded people - in QUALITY! :lmao:

You could always set up a Dr. Steel forum on here...



...of course you would probably be booked solid for the next 20 years :confused:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

You are sooooo right! :applause:

I'm actually entertaining a job offer TODAY that will take me out of Quality systems and into training in the mental health field - my degree is actually in Psychology.... :(


Go for it - remember what Taguchi had to say about Quality.

If you can be of greater benefit to the society by leaving the "Quality" field, then, IMO, you are truly following the Quality philosophy.

QUESTION: Would you leave the Quality Assurance profession given the option?

I don't see how it would be possible for me to leave the quality profession. Quality principles 'tried and true' have been ingrained in me since early childhood. I worked with my Dad from the time I was a very small boy. He is a retired master craftsman (cabinet maker/carpenter) from the 'Old School' TOC. Mom is a perfectionist! My first part time job (while in high school) was working for a man who taught me well about 'customer satisfaction' and solid quality principles.

So, all my life 'quality' has followed me like a little puppy. If I were forced to take a job on the 'dark side' quality would tag along with me. Quality and I are inseparable. :rolleyes:

I agree with many of my QA colleagues. I cannot vote, because my answer is not there. I love what I do, but as a contractor/consultant that is not on the east or west coast, it is hard to find work. Also, when I do discuss a contract, it is always with someone who doesn't wish to pay for the service or expertise. It is frustrating to find so few people who understand that QA prevents loss of revenue ( as in fines, loss of time, rework, warning letters, etc.) but we do not generate revenue.

I recently applied for a post as Production Manager (which also does quality and safety) in a pallet making company. Today I also had the opportunity to apply for a quality engineer opening at a nearby formed fiber manufacturer.

I dare to hope I can re-enter the field! :cfingers:

Jennifer - good luck with your applications. I know only too well the frustrations of job hunting and trying to stay in the area you want/need to live in. Northern New England (VT, NH, ME) is a grand place to live, and of the 3 I think Maine is the best.

Have kicked myself several times over the years for taking a lateral transfer to Pittsburgh so I could get an MBA rather than having stayed in NH or moved to ME. Got the MBA, but also got caught in a 25% RIF in engineering force.

Again - good luck with those opportunities.

If you teach quality I will learn it. I love that subject & I want to learn stats from quality proffessional who are actually working in the field.

I would teach - in the field of stats, preferably.

Ideally, we should all do something different. That means quality has been incorporated to the rest of the functions, and we are not needed. Ah yes, in another life.

I actually left the quality field six years ago but I did it specifically for quality reasons. I felt like I was on the effect side of the cause and effect relationship. I seemed to see and catch a lot of defects and miscommunications but it was impossible for me to fix things proactively. From that point on, my preference has been to worm my way to higher levels so that I can have more of an overall affect on quality. Before, I was definitely on the receiving end of quality related policies (even as a QA Manager). Now, I get to apply more quality principles that I think have a better ROI.

-Alex

There is one more choice for leaving the quality field - early retirement. If I stay active in quality it will not because of the desire for more money. I am also not interested in working in a corporate bureaucracy where there is no support for change. There is some satisfaction in just helping people for no financial gain. I also plan to continue to teach part time but that is definitely not for the money or even because it is easy work or without frustration. It does provide a certain amount of enjoyment in helping others to learn.

Bill Pflanz

Just my 10p worth. I left a calibration quality role to become a driving instructor, promises of better money, own boss and all that. I gave that job up to rejoin the quality life again as there was even less support from the largest driving school in Britain than in my previous job with 8 staff! I now work in a company of 24 and love it.
Paul

I actually left the quality field six years ago but I did it specifically for quality reasons. I felt like I was on the effect side of the cause and effect relationship. I seemed to see and catch a lot of defects and miscommunications but it was impossible for me to fix things proactively. From that point on, my preference has been to worm my way to higher levels so that I can have more of an overall affect on quality. Before, I was definitely on the receiving end of quality related policies (even as a QA Manager). Now, I get to apply more quality principles that I think have a better ROI.

-Alex


Amen Alex!

I often feel like the "effect" in the Cause-Effect chain...

I too am shifting my focus, but the final push may require a new employer. I am currently working on getting into grad school to get a Masters in Engineering Management. I want to get into a position where I can become proactive, where I can hope to stop the insanity BEFORE it becomes "institutionalized".

I will never leave quality, it is part of my personality, a major part of the way I think. No matter what the job, it will always be done in a "quality" manner.

Brian

I spent the the majority of my past in product development, performing 1st article inspections, programming CMM's, I loved the work, no hassles.

Now..... on my third ISO implementation I almost feel like a bad car salesman (as shown in the movies).The only difference being that I truely believe in my product.
I just feel that the uppers really don't care, they don't understand the value in the systems. The certification is either to fly the flag to impress the folks at the country club or because their biggest customer is demanding it. I feel like the poster child, hey look , we have a quality manager!, I know, if they thought they could get rid of me and keep the same amount of business, I would be gone. That statement alone shows the reason that they get the business, because of the quality systems, but they don't see it that way.

I own a business with my wife, so I am also on the other side of the fence.
I practice what I preach.
I feel like i'm making a difference but not for the right reasons.
I will always be a quality oriented person, just feeling a little frustrated that the true reason for doing all this, is not understood.

Thanks for listening,
Ed
To answer the question... I think I would run

I'm starting to believe that a person either has the process and quality gene or they don't. If you do, then your first (and overriding thoughts) tend to gravitate towards quality and process with every job you perform. If you don't, then your probably in a different gene pool. Haven't really thought about what that pool might be like (maybe more of a pond? :biglaugh: ).

As a Development Manager, I like to consider the following when I'm initiating a (software) project. (this is a quick and dirty list of how I try to get stakeholders involved with the design, then get all designs ironed out before beginning construction, and then finalizing with formal testing - both internal and external testing).
1. Work with customers to get accurate assessment of what is NEEDED.
2. Work with internal stakeholders to assess internal NEEDS.
3. Investigate time needed to implement NEEDS (requirements).
4. Plan the implementation and testing.
5. Implement
6. Test internally
7. Review product internally
8. Test externally (beta test, usability test, etc.)
9. Close out project with Production team

The point here is that I want a quality product that meets the customer needs AND is easy to maintain/support/enhance from a selfish point of view. If I can meet both needs, then I feel like I've hit the target. Also, spending time up front to design correctly, produces a better engineered and better quality product. Theroetically everyone (80%) are happy.:agree1:

...The only difference being that I truely believe in my product.
I just feel that the uppers really don't care, they don't understand the value in the systems....

I understand your pain...

You probably already do this, but remember, it is our job to be the missionary and convert the heathens.

Do we preach effectively and live out that would help them want to do it?

Hey i'm with you. I've worked in various quality related roles in a broad range of food manufacturing environments and have never been fulfilled in the role. Most times I feel like i'm just going through the motions while production does basically what they want. The only time the QA dept gets any attention is when they are preparing for an audit and everyone scrambles to create the image that everything is under control and were doing what we say we are doing. I'm so tired of entering a production or packing area only to here the whispers of "shh, QA's comming" . I've decided Sales and Marketing is where it's at. They get the big bucks and all the perks.

From the Sales & Marketing end, you get to manage customer expectations competely. I guess the only real worry you'd have is whether you've promised something that can't be delivered. Make sure you keep the animals on BOTH sides of you, well fed.

I took a stab at being Operations Manager for a small manufacturing plant.

I hated it. After years of quality engineering in product development and quality management in FDA (drug and device) regulated industries I was totally unchallenged.

After 6 months I had my resume back out for QA Management positions.

I've been back in QA for over two months and my job satisfaction is WAY up.

Today I am depressed and would leave.

I have no budget, I must not upset my colleagues. My colleagues refuse to read my emails, and don't want any processes or procedures. Upper management don't support quality, and considering anyone who does this work deserves to be disliked!!

Probably the best bet is to hide in my office and do nothing.

Sorry to hear that things are that bad. Times like that, you have to ask yourself, why should I care if no one else does. And then start looking for a different job!

One thing I've learned, if upper management isn't behind your quality process 100%, then it will fail 100%. :nope:

Hello and welcome to the Cove, :bigwave: Probably the best bet is to hide in my office and do nothing.I can certainly understand that urge, but that would probably just make things worse. I am sorry to hear that you find yourself in such a dismal situation. Can you tell us how it happened? Many of us have been in similar situations, though hopefully not to such an extent.

/Claes

Stupidly I offered to move over to quality because I saw the need and find it very stimulating and interesting.

The Boss wants a system but does not really understand. Second Boss bad mouths me behind my back, says I cant do the job, sends out public emails saying to everyone, I know we don't like the system that is being built bla bla bla. They think the quality function is to be disliked!

They appear to think that the ideas behind the system like written SOPs and CAPA are my own creation and too fancy. They do not even understand that these processes etc are standard for a regulated industry. I have no budget and so I cannot even commission training. I recently commissioned a very experience auditor to give some impartial advice. They refused to attend the meeting and said I was wasting my time and money!

No need to go on, I expect you get the picture. I don't understand the response, or why no one appears to understand the benefits of quality!

Thanks for your replies. Not so depressed today!

:)

Dont blame yourself, they are 'just not ready yet' - as a great man once said !

[QUOTE=Sleepless]Sorry to hear that things are that bad. Times like that, you have to ask yourself, why should I care if no one else does. And then start looking for a different job!

Remember the "Starfish" story, if you don't know it, you can search "starfish" story on the internet and you'll find it.

We can always make a difference! As long as we still care and never give up!!!!!

Good Luck:

The Starfish story is good and contains values I believe in, ie. every penny counts.

But I'm also a practical person. If you're spending 90% of your energy with only a 10% return (i.e. 10% acceptance of the quality policy) vs. 90% of your energy for a 100% return, which one would provide the most benefit (for everyone invovled)?

My advice is to do your absolute best and give it time. If things aren't working, it's time to move on.

NOTE: doing your best means more than just creating and using the QMS, it means finding effective ways to communicate it too. ;)

The Starfish story is good and contains values I believe in, ie. every penny counts.

But I'm also a practical person. If you're spending 90% of your energy with only a 10% return (i.e. 10% acceptance of the quality policy) vs. 90% of your energy for a 100% return, which one would provide the most benefit (for everyone invovled)?

My advice is to do your absolute best and give it time. If things aren't working, it's time to move on.

NOTE: doing your best means more than just creating and using the QMS, it means finding effective ways to communicate it too. ;)That's an interesting take on the story if we are talking the same story The Starfish
Once upon a time there was a wise man
who used to go to the ocean
to do his writing.
He had a habit of walking
on the beach
before he began his work.
One day he was walking along
the shore.

As he looked down the beach,
he saw a human
figure moving like a dancer.
He smiled to himself to think
of someone who would
dance to the day.

So he began to walk faster
to catch up.
As he got closer, he saw
that it was a young man
and the young man wasn't dancing,
but instead he was reaching
down to the shore,
picking up something
and very gently throwing it
into the ocean.

As he got closer he called out,
"Good morning! What are you doing?"

The young man paused,
looked up and replied,
"Throwing starfish in the ocean."

"I guess I should have asked,
why are you throwing starfish
in the ocean?"

"The sun is up and the tide is going out.
And if I don't throw them in they'll die."

"But, young man, don't you realize that
there are miles and miles of beach
and starfish all along it.
You can't possibly make a difference!"

The young man listened politely.
Then bent down, picked up another starfish
and threw it into the sea,
past the breaking waves and said-
"It made a difference for that one."

There is something very special in each and every one of us.
We have all been gifted with the ability to make a difference.
And if we can become aware of that gift,
we gain through the strength of our visions
the power to shape the future.

We must each find our starfish.
And if we throw our stars wisely and well,
the world will be blessed.

Sometimes we do things when we can't possibly know the outcome. My grandfather planted seedling trees when he was 86 years old. It's 45 years later and they are beautiful trees. How sad it would have been if he had not planted them because he couldn't see a positive result!

...
They appear to think that the ideas behind the system like written SOPs and CAPA are my own creation and too fancy. They do not even understand that these processes etc are standard for a regulated industry. I have no budget and so I cannot even commission training. I recently commissioned a very experience auditor to give some impartial advice. They refused to attend the meeting and said I was wasting my time and money!
...

Let me throw in my 2 cents...


Sounds like you may not have had enough involvement in drafting the procedures; did those people who have to follow the SOPs and CAPA get the chance (with you running to them occasionally to 'check' if what was written is what they actually do) to contribute?

Also, you say the procedures are standard in the industry, but are they aware of the regulatory requirements? I mean, down to the specific clause and paragraph in the relevant requirement (document).

Assuming they are 'normal', rational people (I will use that assumption first :agree1: ), their involvement in procedure-writing should give them greater ownership. At this stage you can go to those most strongly against your project and say something like "It seems we have some challenges with the way the procedures are written. If you have time, can we review them together?"

Try for one-on-one meetings, or small groups (I don't know how big your company is; maybe that isn't practial for everyone).

When you get to the meeting, say something like "The requirement states xyz ; how would you suggest we meet that requirement?" and start writing down what they say.

At this stage is it more important that they support the system (even if it means re-writing, or at least reviewing all necessary procedures with key people) or that it stays as it is with the strong opposition you seem to be facing?

Good luck.

Yes. I tried all those things. I read and re read the guidlines to be sure, met with them to discuss what is required. They said I did not know what I was talking about. They said they outsource everything so they dont want or need a quality system. They will have a process for audit and audit themselves. They do not consider that upper management or the quality department will have access to the results of the audits?


I am reviewing my CV and will be walking

I would leave the Quality Profession only to complete my career in the Operations side of the house to get a full-blown overview on how a company works.

Coury Ferguson

After 22 years in the quality field, the last eight as either a quality engineering manager or quality assurance manager, the field of quality has developed into one as a necessaary evil - (very evil). If given the opportunity, yes, I would leave it.

Current job as quality engineer manager - management DOES NOT want to have a quality system in place. Quality has NO input to operations, there is no tactical or strategic planning performed, everything is run by the seat of the pants.

In my 22 years, I have never seen an organization run as cavilier as this one. I was hired to develop an ISO-9000 quality system, but management will not support any efforts in that direction. Managers have told me that a quality system restricts what they can do and COSTS too much.

I feel strongly that too much emphasis is put on the latest gimmicks and not enough on , "Does this person know how to get the job done in the quality world"? i.e. SSGBB versus CQE. Having 22 years or experience in quality covering, medical devices, contract manufacturing, defense and aerospace manufacturing, cancer research, automotive and having CQE, CQA, CQMgr and SGB , RAB ISO-9000 audit certifications counts as nothing now that the latest gimmicks are lean, lean 6S and SSBB.

YES, I would leave the field.

As long as quality is considered as a cost instead of Free - quality in this nation will suffer.

Quality is Free - Phil Crosby is still a book all quality professionals should read.:nope:

TNHunter,
You sound very fus