There are many sources out there that provide data on what quality folks make. But how much do you think a quality consultant is worth? That is, if you had to pay a consultant to help you, what would it be worth to you? I know what I charge, but what am I worth?

Personally, I wish I could have talked my boss into hiring a consultant to get us prepared for ISO17025. Considering the help we've gotten from our assigned auditor for the price we've paid, any consultant would have been a bargain.

But with our company closely watching where every penny goes, it was decided we would go it alone. Gonna bite us but that's life.




Now, if the Cove didn't exist.............. :o



Just curious Dave. Are customers busting down your door looking for your expertise or has traffic slowed?

db said:

There are many sources out there that provide data on what quality folks make. But how much do you think a quality consultant is worth? That is, if you had to pay a consultant to help you, what would it be worth to you? I know what I charge, but what am I worth?

I don't know what you're worth. In Jan 2001, we contracted a consultant to assist with ISO9001:2000. That included apprx 11 visits, once a month until completion. We would complete assignments at that pace and be ready for a registrar in a year. Knowing full well that companies find it difficult to maintain this ambitious schedule, the consultant's terms were:

$1500 down
$4K each month for 3 months
Plus out of pocket travel expenses, billed at the end of each month.

Now, if the company decides to prolong the effort due to lack of resources or Commitment, he is paid up in three months and waits for you to call him again. If I were a consultant, I would insist on as much payment I could get up front as proof that the company is serious about this endeavor. Why would any company sign up for that and not follow through? Just ask me!
:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

Just curious Dave. Are customers busting down your door looking for your expertise or has traffic slowed? Interesting question Ken, there has been an increase in interest. My question, however was not to get a feel as to what I should be charging to get more clients.

I would like a new motorcycle, but thought of paying more for a new bike than I did for my car has kept me from making the deal. I might be able to charge a billion dollars for my services and still do a good business. But in the eyes of the customer, what am I worth? Sometimes we buy stuff cuz we hafta, not because we think they are worth it.

db,

In our area, daily rates seem to run $500 - $1,500 typically, depending on the specialty of experience. For instance, if I want someone that specializes in the software development industry, I'm going to have to pay more than I would for someone with a general manufacturing background.

I prefer to hire consultants at a half day rate. Rarely does anyone in our company have a whole day that they can spend with a consultant. So a half day a week or twice a week works better. You get a half day of instruction and then you can go back to your regular day-to-day duties and work on whatever assignment the consultant left you with in your free time before he returns.

Hank
:thedeal:

Do I remember an ageold quote say:

"Each one of us gets paid exactly what he is worth. Not a penny less, not a penny more"

:)

Ah the age old quote probably doesn't account for labor contracts and/or managements' refusal to negotiate a new agreement after the expiration of the contract, keeping employees working under the previous agreement for 3+ years after it expired because they have a lot more money and a lot more lawyers than the union does and the union has a no-strike policy.:mad:

[Deep breath]. But that's not really about consulting. Sorry. Carry on.:smokin:

Feel better now, Carl?

Ahem. I was gone for a moment. I'm back now.

Hmmm this is a loaded question :vfunny: I say any penny you pay a consultant is too much! J/K

Actually I have seen consultants charge from 600/per man day to 30K for the year to help them implement a system. I guess what it boils down to, get what you can from where you can. If you know a company with deep pockets can afford to pay more than charge them more (I know that sounds unethical, but who said consultants had any ethics. Once again JUST KIDDING!) and on the flip side cut the smaller companies some slack. I think Hfowler was pretty much right on most charge 800-1600 per man day plus expenses.

It's 2004. What are consultants charging?

I've noticed a drop in consultancy fee's.
I recently offered a service to a client who baulked at my $500. CDN for a full day system assessment and report. A full day being defined as between 6 and 10 hours.
Three years ago I was having no problem attaining $500. for a full day system assessment.
How times are a changing.
Wallace.

Business has slowed down from the last year.

Consultants for ISO 9001:2000 usually charge between $60-$120/hr.

My rates are very close to my competition, but they usually quote double the number of hours for a project.

I have picked up 3 contracts since the beginning of the year. My clients are not arguing over the rates but on total cost.

Since I have been Consultant too, I want to add my 2 (Euro)Cents:

The economy is depressed during the last year, so most companies have to save costs. Many of them have a hire freeze or even a zero expense directive. So it is hard to bring off new contracts. And this lowers the rates.

I think all consultants have the same problem and the Big Five are more in trouble because they have to fund the organizational overhead...

I have picked up 3 contracts since the beginning of the year. My clients are not arguing over the rates but on total cost.
How do companies 'find' you?

What about training business? My observation here is that even though consulting business is in low gear, there is a good market / money for focused training programs on topics such as FMEA, SPC, GD&T, MSA etc.

Also, do we have any Six Sigma Consultants on board? What's the scene like in 6S Consulting?

What about training business? My observation here is that even though consulting business is in low gear, there is a good market / money for focused training programs on topics such as FMEA, SPC, GD&T, MSA etc.

Also, do we have any Six Sigma Consultants on board? What's the scene like in 6S Consulting?

I would agree. We offer both consulting and training. The consulting daily rate is 1250, and the training rate is based on the length of time. For example, our 3-day TS Internal Auditor class is 695. Our Black Belt is 5800. The seminar classes have picked up rather dramatically, while the consulting end seems to be barely treading water.

What is a consultant worth? Short answer: Whatever the customer agrees to pay! (I'm a capitalist at heart!)

But that is a wide-open question. Consulting is governed by supply-and-demand as much as anything else -- there are other factors, but S&D is certainly a biggie. While there may be lots of "ISO-9001" consultants out there, there are fewer consultants with expertise, say, in designing space telescopes, or making synthetic diamonds, thus their per-day rates will be much higher.

In the quality tools, quality system, and general "business" training (supervisory training, conflict management, safety, etc.) categories I've seen a day rate range of less than $200/person for attendance at a community college training seminar to $1000/day for an on-site ISO consultant.

In the final analysis, some consultants were "worth" every penny paid plus some, and some weren't worth the waste in personnel time expended even if they had come for free.

How do company's find me?

Hopefully as a nice guy with a good sense of humor. :D

Companies usually find me by word of mouth. I have excellent relationships with registrars and auditors. Their recommendations carry a lot of weight.

Hello everyone - have not been around here for awhile.

Our consulting business was way down at the end of 2003. I found myself unemployed when my billable time dropped to about 20 hours a month. My biggest problem getting business was my bill rate - I was set at $125/hr, and was constantly being undercut by independents and even MMTC. Even though I had great client references, most potential clients would not justify the added expense.

I interviewed with a couple local firms over the last few months. One was only able to bill about $50/hr for FMEA and process improvement work.

I'm now out of consulting and back in the corporate automotive world, working on TS transitions and process engineering work. I did not see much security out there in the consulting world, especially since my no-compete would make it difficult to do any independent work.

Tom

My biggest problem getting business was my bill rate - I was set at $125/hr, and was constantly being undercut by independents and even MMTC. Even though I had great client references, most potential clients would not justify the added expense.

I interviewed with a couple local firms over the last few months. One was only able to bill about $50/hr for FMEA and process improvement work.
What am I missing here?
There was a period in my life when I was the "expert from afar." I was greedy and charged as much as the market would bear. I traveled with an entourage and billed for them, too, although their real purpose was to give the impression our firm had bench strength.

Despite all that, we were effective because we sold the value added aspect of our service to the guy who had the power to implement our suggestions before we ever gave one suggestion.

Are these prospective clients buying results or hours? Are the consultants selling results or hours?

Forty years ago, my Mentor in sales made the following pronouncements


People buy benefits, not things.
Salespeople should sell benefits, not things (i.e. "holes" not "drill bits")
All things considered, a person prefers to buy from a another person he perceives to be a friend.
One way to be a friend is to understand what the customer needs and sell him that. (That said, some customers need the ego boost of owning the most expensive thing.)
Every day since then, I see salespeople violate those principles and become "order takers" instead of sellers.

Once a seller becomes an order taker, he is at the mercy of price wars, because he has allowed his product or service to become a commodity. He is no longer selling benefits, he's selling things.

One result is an absolute certainty - when you sell "things," there is always someone who will sell those things cheaper.

Can you perceive a person to be a friend if you don't respect him? Can you respect the guy who says, "I have the same thing, only cheaper."?
Or do you think to yourself, "I wonder who sells it even cheaper?"

Finally, if you don't respect the person, why on earth would you respect the recommendations he makes?

The price is between $100~$300/man day! :o

This thread brings to mind one of my favorite quotes:

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional, try hiring an amateur first"
- Red Adair

This thread brings to mind one of my favorite quotes:

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional, try hiring an amateur first"
- Red AdairExactly! One of those quotes that doesn't need explanation, except maybe to say that Red Adair is a professional famous for putting out oil and gas well fires.

Unfortunately the "worth" of a consultant/professional can only be determined after they have completed the task.

Unfortunately the "worth" of a consultant/professional can only be determined after they have completed the task.

The same holds true for the "cost" of a consultant/professional. :eek:

I work as a consultant, my current customer had a "Quality Systems" consultant here for 2 months prior to my assignment they paid 650.00 a day (8 hrs) I charge per hour for time worked 55.87 an hour for this site. what I have found is that many "Quality" consultants are selling a bill of goods they are unable to deliver. The guy who was here prior to me said that the management was at fault for his inability to complete the 94-00 upgrade. I have been here 30 days and we are past our desk audit and ready for our first survaliance audit.

I think the bottom line is what you get for what you pay. This like most of my other customers found me via word of mouth I do not advertise nor do I "work" the industry so I use my past jobs to show what I can do for my new customers.

just my 2cents

ian

I think the bottom line is what you get for what you pay. This like most of my other customers found me via word of mouth I do not advertise nor do I "work" the industry so I use my past jobs to show what I can do for my new customers.

ian

I have a full time job, but it does leave sufficient time for a little outside consulting. I have done a variety of small tasks (primarily Excel data analysis, especially worker survey data) at $60/hour. Mostly people find me by stumbling across my various ramblings and postings around the internet. I had an executive at a bank in New Jersey read my page on how to analyze survey data, and then he called me and asked if I would analyze his annual employee surveys. Done it 3 years in a row now, only took 2 hours each year. A good deal for him, and a good use of 2 hours on the weekend for me. Those sort of things.

- Steve

Here in Ontario, the rate for reputed QMS consultants are approx. CDN$750/day (7~ 8 hours). TL9000 consultants are paid at least 50% more! I would suggest organizations negotiate “cost for the project” with the consultant rather than paying hourly.

I have not heard of any penalty clause or bonus clause for dragging the project or finishing early in Quality Management arena. If the project is delayed due to lack of planning from the consultant side (which is difficult to prove) then penalty should be paid by the consultant. On the other hand, bonus clause will offer an advantage in the next bid for finishing the current project early and within the budgeted cost.

Sounds fair?
Govind.

What about training business? My observation here is that even though consulting business is in low gear, there is a good market / money for focused training programs on topics such as FMEA, SPC, GD&T, MSA etc.

Also, do we have any Six Sigma Consultants on board? What's the scene like in 6S Consulting?

The quality business regularly undergoes an age old process sometimes called" putting old wine in new bottles." Six sigma has received a lot of publicity but its core concepts and tools are well-established.

When working at GE in the mid 1970s, for a few years, I deployed them according to the situation confronting me. Jack Welch who as a high profile CEO succeeded in getting top executive attention to the "Six sigma" idea was then in charge of another division (Plastics). But, there was no regular and effective cross fertilization between GE divisions back then.

"6S" consulting requires a consummate understanding of many business tools. The risk is that it will eventually fall into disrepute as the unscrupulous, the inexperienced, the "get rich quick" crowd rush to what they perceive as a Yukon. We have had it before in Q Programs, Q Circles, Management Audits, Benchmarking, Reengineering etc. Then everyone awaits a new bottle and it starts all over again.

Yawn!

But, yes, there are certainly 6S people in the Cove - but they are probably honestly labelled: Business Improvement Consultants. Good ones know all of the 6S tools peddled by various consultancies - especially the well known ones who always seem to be able to instantly offer courses on whatever is the new "buzz" or "bottle" - and a lot more besides.

I notice that there is a wide range of pricing out there. Since my company is still new, I am going by word of mouth, and my pricing is based on results, not hours. My partner and I are hard workers, and we get the job done.

Interestin that our first customer when he was "negotiating" the contract, whipped out a flyer that was faxed to him, and it undercut us by a bit. But, it was apparent that they only provided a prepackaged, general QMS Manual, and forms, and it wasnt tailored to the company's needs. When I showed him that, he decided to go with us.

I think a consultant is worth what his track record proves, and the word of mouth his work generates. :rar:

The answer is whatever the customer is willing to pay for the perceived benefit. It seems that nothing changes, just how it is packaged.

It all tends to be driven by what is the current hot quality theme. It cracks me up that Six Sigma became the hot ticket after Jack Welch threatened to club trainees to death (just kidding) if they didn't use the expensive training. Motorola started Six Sigma but never made the people use it to save money. GE, built an excellent structure to encourage its use and other companies copied at least the Green, Black and Master Black Belt concept.

After years of being on my own consulting for myself and about 10 other good individual life changed due to family medical issue. The time and dedication required to run a small business becam impossible to do well. I now find myself working at a fairly innovative supplier to the auto industry that still believes in vertical integration. I am not making what I did 15 years ago, but I don't have any platinum airline travel cards and don't miss the traveling all over the world (it's just a long ride to work). Our firm would be very hard pressed to pay anything more than $50 an hour for a consultant. $250 an hour consulting rates would be looked at by our executive committee as extortion and whomever recommended hiring him or her would be considered irresponsible.

I think the big fees are still possible at major companies where high level execs are your audience / sponsor. However, working with the supply base everything seems to be scaled back, including consulting fees.

Our firm would be very hard pressed to pay anything more than $50 an hour for a consultant.

I guess it is possible to find someone for $50 an hour. There are some guys down at the local bar who would probably do it for $10 an hour.

Having been in the consulting business you must surely be aware that a consultants value can't be judged on a cost per hour. The very reason you are consulting is that there is nobody inside the company who has the knowledge. The alternative is to throw some of your own people at it and try to figure it out for yourself at a cost of whatever their combined wages are. You may even decide to send someone to school at a cost of a few thousand plus expenses, and the employees wages while away. The fact is, you bring in a consultant because you need some specialized help for a short term. If you need something done and will lose a $100,000 contract without it, cost of getting it done suddenly becomes a lesser consideration. If, at the end of it all the job is done right, management will accept the cost and congratulate itself for getting it done. If, on the other hand the low cost consultant does a botch-up job, the irresponsible person who hired him/her had better hide.

When it comes to consultants, it is just like everything else; you get what you pay for. By all means, shop for a consultant. Find the best one you can on the subject and verify he/she is the best. Pick the consultant that will realize the best benefit to your company - and I'm not talking dollars per hour.

Dave

There are many people calling themselves "consultants". Indeed, I suspect the supply exceeds the demand. In the quality world, much that these people offer is a commodity and subject to the laws of supply and demand. The fact is that what they offer is readily available from any number of sources and cannot justify premium fees. But, there are a few people around (I stress a few) who by virtue of their experience and ability can deliver superior value for money. They have a franchise, as a result and are generally worth their fees.

If a client is concerned about the cost of hiring the right consultant, they are forgetting the benefit they wish to receive. Like any other expense, clients must consider the return on their investment. Of course, when it comes to consultants, management is wary because of the horror stories of rip-off and poor service. For that reason large firms tend to patronise the more famous consultancies and pay high fees. What they forget, of course, is that in the end regardless of how the consultant is employed, it all comes down to the individual doing the job. Size of firm is not an infallible indicator of integrity, reliability or quality, as events of recent years has demonstrated.

Hmmm this is a loaded question :vfunny: I say any penny you pay a consultant is too much! J/K

Actually I have seen consultants charge from 600/per man day to 30K for the year to help them implement a system. I guess what it boils down to, get what you can from where you can. If you know a company with deep pockets can afford to pay more than charge them more (I know that sounds unethical, but who said consultants had any ethics. Once again JUST KIDDING!) and on the flip side cut the smaller companies some slack. I think Hfowler was pretty much right on most charge 800-1600 per man day plus expenses.

I charge my clients 1200-1500 per day, and probably save them 10 times that much. Therefore, I don't need to work under a contract. We have a simple agreement. If they think they are getting their money's worth, then they can invite me back. So far, most of them invite me back. See, I can do all that and still have ethics!

If people ask me what my Project Coaching costs, my standard reply is "If it would cost, I wouldn't do it".
I devised a project management approach to help projects generally deliver successfully, in 30% shorter time, based on PDCA and ROI (see web site in member profile). After having coached more than 30 projects in 12 organizations, I dare to work on a no-cure-no-pay basis. I think any consultant should be prepared to do that.
If people think I am expensive (charging some $2000 per day plus travel), I suggest that we split the profit.
We calculate the average time overrun of 5 previous projects. Then we add the overrun percentage to the current project. Then I suggest to split the profit of every day saved. The result (after some calculation by the client): they pay me by the day.
Example of savings at a recent client: 40 people in the project plus missed/gained profits per day: $70,000 per day. If I can make them save many days, by coaching several days, who's talking about my cost?
Remember that the consequential gains of your advice usually is (or should be) way more than the direct implementation cost. Why else would you do it anyway?

If people ask me what my Project Coaching costs, my standard reply is "If it would cost, I wouldn't do it".
I devised a project management approach to help projects generally deliver successfully, in 30% shorter time, based on PDCA and ROI (see web site in profile). After having coached more than 30 projects in 12 organizations, I dare to work on a no-cure-no-pay basis. I think any consultant should be prepared to do that.
If people think I am expensive (charging some $2000 per day plus travel), I suggest that we split the profit.
We calculate the average time overrun of 5 previous projects. Then we add the overrun percentage to the current project. Then I suggest to split the profit of every day saved. The result (after some calculation by the client): they pay me by the day.
Example of savings at a recent client: 40 people in the project plus missed/gained profits per day: $70,000 per day. If I can make them save many days, by coaching several days, who's talking about my cost?
Remember that the consequential gains of your advice usually is (or should be) way more than the direct implementation cost. Why else would you do it anyway?
Welcome to the Cove, nielsmxhttp://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/bigwave-d2.gif . There's another way to look at this, of course. Unless you're in possession of a magic elixirÒ then we must assume that you're teaching the organization something they should be able to do for themselves (i.e., implement common sense), and your fee represents waste in addition to the money that's already been wasted by not using common sense.
Why else would you do it anyway?
One possible answer:
$2000 per day plus travelhttp://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/biggrin-a1.gif

First and foremost fees charged are a function of supply and demand. If there is a glut of consultants with similar skill sets, the rates go down.

I do statistical consulting and have rates that vary depending on the length of the engagement, and what other consultants would charge the client.

I could have charged one client 5x what I did, and they would have paid it since I was one of the few people who knew their process, and could help them meet a critical deadline. So it is all relative.

Yes, it is about implementing common sense. But common sense apparently is not trivial. The trick is how to help people to use the common sense. If using common sense saves a lot of cost and helping the people how to use their common sense (because nobody taught them before), then spending money on a coach is not waste.
It would be waste if the coach would not succeed.
Some people find the function of a Project Coach strange. One CEO told me: "I hired professionals. These people are supposed to know how to run a project." Well, if that were the case, most projects would run smoothly.
In sports, people know the value of a coach.

One CEO told me: "I hired professionals. These people are supposed to know how to run a project." Well, if that were the case, most projects would run smoothly.
In sports, people know the value of a coach.
Sorry, but the analogy doesn't hold up. In business, the CEO is analogous to the head coach in sports, and head coaches don't typically bring people from outside the organization in to do their jobs.
Mind you, I'm not in any way criticizing you, or consultants in general, or begrudging you your living. More power to you--you should charge whatever the market will bear. The value of any commodity in a free market is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, so if people are paying you $2000/day, then you're worth it.

If people ask me what my Project Coaching costs, my standard reply is "If it would cost, I wouldn't do it".
I devised a project management approach to help projects generally deliver successfully, in 30% shorter time, based on PDCA and ROI (see web site in member profile). After having coached more than 30 projects in 12 organizations, I dare to work on a no-cure-no-pay basis. I think any consultant should be prepared to do that.
If people think I am expensive (charging some $2000 per day plus travel), I suggest that we split the profit.
We calculate the average time overrun of 5 previous projects. Then we add the overrun percentage to the current project. Then I suggest to split the profit of every day saved. The result (after some calculation by the client): they pay me by the day.
Example of savings at a recent client: 40 people in the project plus missed/gained profits per day: $70,000 per day. If I can make them save many days, by coaching several days, who's talking about my cost?
Remember that the consequential gains of your advice usually is (or should be) way more than the direct implementation cost. Why else would you do it anyway?

Well put! I agree, we consultants should back up our work, or shut up. But it it saves a client 20,000, then I should get a piece of it. Although, I have yet to have a client take me up on the share the profits offer. However, maybe I should reevaluate my dayrate...

Welcome to the Cove.

The answer is whatever the customer is willing to pay for the perceived benefit. It seems that nothing changes, just how it is packaged.

It all tends to be driven by what is the current hot quality theme. It cracks me up that Six Sigma became the hot ticket after Jack Welch threatened to club trainees to death (just kidding) if they didn't use the expensive training. Motorola started Six Sigma but never made the people use it to save money. GE, built an excellent structure to encourage its use and other companies copied at least the Green, Black and Master Black Belt concept.

After years of being on my own consulting for myself and about 10 other good individual life changed due to family medical issue. The time and dedication required to run a small business becam impossible to do well. I now find myself working at a fairly innovative supplier to the auto industry that still believes in vertical integration. I am not making what I did 15 years ago, but I don't have any platinum airline travel cards and don't miss the traveling all over the world (it's just a long ride to work). Our firm would be very hard pressed to pay anything more than $50 an hour for a consultant. $250 an hour consulting rates would be looked at by our executive committee as extortion and whomever recommended hiring him or her would be considered irresponsible.

I think the big fees are still possible at major companies where high level execs are your audience / sponsor. However, working with the supply base everything seems to be scaled back, including consulting fees.

Let's say your company is very small. Let's say I offer to play a game with you. You give me $200, and 1 hour later I give $1000 back. Then you give me $200 again, and 1 hour later I give $1000 back. How long would you like to play my game?

The question is not how much a consultant costs. The real question is whether he/she is good enough and knowledgeable enough to give you $1000 back for every couple hundred you invest. Unfortunately, many are not. But then, many execs are not worth their pay...

I daresay, I don't think I have cost my clients any money, if they follow my proposals, or they wouldn't invite me back.

But for the sports analogy, say you have a $5 million NFL running back. If he could run for $2 million per game for Team A on Thursday night , Team B Sunday afternoon, team C Sunday night, and Team D Monday night. Each team pays $2 million for the expertise, saving $3M. The running back makes $8 instead of $5. It's the rules of the game, competitive advantage, etc. that prevent it from happening.

Goodness Gracious, $2,000 a day plus travel. I just figured out my day rate at my job and I am either grossly underpaid or you are just the cat's pajamas.

Good on you. At my paltry $743.50 per day, I should barely be able to comprehend what my computer is. I am only teasing you. Although it was kind of fun to figure out my monthly, weekly, daily, hourly and per minute rates. So my employer is losing $12.31 for every 8 minute smoke break I take. WOW!!

This is a sore subject for me, as I was grossly overcharged by a consultant and was essentially held hostage and had no choice to pay her outrageous sums. Many who remember the thread and the debate that ensued can tell you, you dont always get what you pay for. I do not dispute the fact that you are worth every penny and I love the idea of putting your fee where your mouth is (so to speak). I also agree with JSW05 - if you are training on subjects that should already be known then it is wasted and you are training on how to communicate, not how to make a widget.

More power to you and I wish you the best of luck in all that you do. Please do not be offended if I do not call you for your services :D :D :D

But for the sports analogy, say you have a $5 million NFL running back. If he could run for $2 million per game for Team A on Thursday night , Team B Sunday afternoon, team C Sunday night, and Team D Monday night. Each team pays $2 million for the expertise, saving $3M. The running back makes $8 instead of $5. It's the rules of the game, competitive advantage, etc. that prevent it from happening.

If I were the running back, I would vote for a change in the rules. The teams each save $3 million, the running back makes the $8 million he is worth, and the fans get to watch someone who is brilliant. Sounds like a win-win-win. Since the rules don't allow it, the running back should argue restraint of trade... Good thing I'm not a lawyer!

But it it saves a client 20,000, then I should get a piece of it. Although, I have yet to have a client take me up on the share the profits offer. However, maybe I should reevaluate my dayrate...

Welcome to the Cove.


If you want to look at it that way then why don't you offer to do the job and take a percentage of the savings as pay and better yet, if you end up costing them money you have to pay them a percentage.

If you want to look at it that way then why don't you offer to do the job and take a percentage of the savings as pay and better yet, if you end up costing them money you have to pay them a percentage.

Depending on the project, in a number of cases I have offered to do that. So far, they preferred to pay the fees. Maybe the fact I was willing to put it on the line, persuaded them that this was a legitimate offer. The real issue is not whether a GOOD consultant is worth his fee, but rather, how do you separate the good consultants from the weak ones.

I willingly subscribe to the premise a good consultant should guarantee his/her work.

On the lighter side . . . . (I hope this is appropriate!)

A guy walks into a pet store to get his wife a pet. All along one wall he sees one long cage, filled with Spider Mondeys. The sign on the cage says . . . .

$85.

While walking around, he finds 3 cages along the back wall. Each cage has one Spider Monkey in it. The signs on the 3 cages say . . . .

$1000, $1500 & $3000.

Hmmmm. So he grabs a clerk and asks about these 3 monkeys. "So how come all those other monkeys are $85, and these 3 are so much more?"

The clerk begins to fill him in. "Well, these 3 are very special, and unique. Take this 1st one for example. She understands English, and types 60 words per minute, with no errors! That's why she's worth $1000."

"Hmmmm. OK, so why is the 2nd one $1500?"

"Well, he understands 2 languages, and can program a computer in 5 languages! That's why he's worth $1500!"

"WOW! Man, so what's the 3rd one do to be worth $3000?"

The clerk scratches his head for a minute then says . . . .

"Well, he claims to be a consultant. But I've never seen him do a darned thing!"

:eek:

Carry on! (One consultant to another!)

"This is a sore subject for me, as I was grossly overcharged by a consultant and was essentially held hostage and had no choice to pay her outrageous sums."

Why do you pay outrageous sums if you are not satisfied? Insist on a satisfaction guarantee: no pay if you are not happy with the consultant's results at the end of a day. If the consultant is afraid you won't be happy, beware! As long as clients are paying outrageous sums for underperfoming consultants, the monkey story will perpetuate.

"This is a sore subject for me, as I was grossly overcharged by a consultant and was essentially held hostage and had no choice to pay her outrageous sums."

Why do you pay outrageous sums if you are not satisfied? Insist on a satisfaction guarantee: no pay if you are not happy with the consultant's results at the end of a day. If the consultant is afraid you won't be happy, beware! As long as clients are paying outrageous sums for underperfoming consultants, the monkey story will perpetuate.

It may be because most organizations would rather have an outsider try to help them than listen to their own internal resources who may have many solutions at their fingertips.

"What! Listen to our employees? Never happen.":mg:

I myself always enjoyed getting paid to tell someone the time and to use their watch to do it.:D

This is a sore subject for me, as I was grossly overcharged by a consultant and was essentially held hostage and had no choice to pay her outrageous sums.

No choice? Why?

There are good, ordinary & bad consultants like anything else: & I've had to fix up some of the plain awful work of the latter. I've also met people in the business world who've engaged consultants without ever checking them out first, nor having any kind of written agreement about who would do what & when & how much, not managed the engagement at all, and then have complained big time when it goes wrong & blame the consultant.

I've also been the subject of unpleasant comments from people while working: invariably by employees, & usually seeming jealous. They seem to focus solely on the fees, come up with a daily/hourly/whatever amount, & then compare to their salary, ignoring typical on-costs to the employer, & benefits. Consultants dont - we take the business risk of running our own business, pay all own insurance, running costs, etc. & don't get paid for holidays, sick pay, and so on. I'm not complaining: it's my choice, & I prefer to run my own business than work for someone else. And I also accept there will be down periods, periods of little/no work perhaps, and all the other things, like spending my weekends so the tax office can get theirs - don't get me started :tg:

I think there's a place for both employees & consultants. There are various times when it suits an organisation to get a consultant: eg, they need the resource, & don't want to be left with an employee.

I put my money where my mouth is - ie, I tell my clients that if they are not satisfied with my services, then I won't charge them. I think yes, we have to be prepared to stand by our services.

I ask every client: did I deliver value for your money? All have said yes bar one: she used the guarantee as a convenient way to take my work & not pay (but I know she subsequently used it). I'd still rather keep the guarantee and let her own karma catch up with her.

And yes - I've offered a choice between a fee, or a share of expected savings, improvements... every time, the customer takes the fee.

Recently started consulting with a few clients. Does anyone utilize a scorecard or other means of evaluation that the client can use to formally address performance of a consultant? Looking for suggestions or examples. Being new to the consulting end of the business I am looking for all possible ways to improve and deliver customer satisfaction to the highest level attainable. Thank you in advance

Recently started consulting with a few clients. Does anyone utilize a scorecard or other means of evaluation that the client can use to formally address performance of a consultant? Looking for suggestions or examples. Being new to the consulting end of the business I am looking for all possible ways to improve and deliver customer satisfaction to the highest level attainable. Thank you in advance


well, a scorecard would be nice, but often clients are not that well developed. So, I put together the means to measure some key metrics, and use that as a guage.

CAn you be more specific or show an example? Any help would be great.

CAn you be more specific or show an example? Any help would be great.

Companies that hire consultants do not always have well developed metrics, so that is a good place to start. With your help, they should develop good process measures.

So, if you work with them, and their scrap rates go down, or productivity improves as a result of the work you are doing with them, then you can deduce that your training and consulting efforts are having a positive effect.

A specific scorecard that measures your performance would be nice, but probably not practical.

There can be two situations:
1. You are already hired.
Then visit the highest relevant executive, walk into his/her room and ask how they will measure your results. This is a good start in case the executive has and idea, to set some metric. If the executive has no idea, it's also a good start: now you can suggest some metric to measure your results.

2. You are not yet hired.
Here is a potential problem if you don't have a lot experience about the performance you can promise. Several years ago I didn't dare, but nowadays, I work according to a no-cure-co-pay clause: if at the end of a coaching day I don't see big smiles on the faces, I cannot send an invoice. Because I always see the big smiles, I now dare to say this.
Also, I calculate with the people I coach what 1 day savings of what they are doing would bring: the cost of the saved day, plus the extra revenues because of being one day earlier on the market (the latter usually being much more than the former). Because a few days of my time usually shortens the activity I'm coaching with around 30%, we can quickly calculate whether my cost is too much, or (as in most cases) negligible.

Niels Malotaux, Project Coach

I am glad to see so many consultants that have time to assess their performance. I use a very crude method myself. If the client continues to use my services, I am doing a good job, otherwise I am not meeting their expectations. I have found that very few clients are "honest" when you ask for feedback while you are engaged on a contract, and once you are no longer doing work for them, will not tell you why they no longer use your services.

The standard answer I get is right now we do not have work for you....how can you get clients to tell you the real reason they no longer engage you for work?

I am glad to see so many consultants that have time to assess their performance. I use a very crude method myself. If the client continues to use my services, I am doing a good job, otherwise I am not meeting their expectations. I have found that very few clients are "honest" when you ask for feedback while you are engaged on a contract, and once you are no longer doing work for them, will not tell you why they no longer use your services.

The standard answer I get is right now we do not have work for you....how can you get clients to tell you the real reason they no longer engage you for work?

I don't know who you are referring to that is spending so much time assessing their performance, but the metrics I mentioned are primary performance metrics the company should be using anyway. We just make that one of the first orders of business to put in place. Then, there is something to measure to. After all, I am there to make them better and make them profitable.

My closing question to you is, what would you do with the truth if you could get it?

I would put it in the closet and start looking for Justice and the American Way, so as to complete the set.:cool:

I laughed right out loud. :lmao:

I've been averaging $50-75/hr.

I've been averaging $50-75/hr.Tell us what kind of consulting and the type of clients for that rate of pay, please. The location of the clients may also have a big impact on the fee.

I have found that very few clients are "honest" when you ask for feedback while you are engaged on a contract, and once you are no longer doing work for them, will not tell you why they no longer use your services.

My experience has been different: I have received honest feedback. I always ask for it after finishing an assignment for a client. I ask them 3 specific questions, one of which asks what I've done well, and another what I could have done better. I've had really useful feedback via this.

I suggest if you aren't getting any reasonable results that it indicates a possiblew problem - perhaps you need to consider how you're asking for feedback and where you could improve your 'getting feedback' process?

OK, they're 'still using me' is one measure, but frankly, it's a pretty blunt instrument, and not good enough. Any company who tried to use that as their single, solitary measure of 'customer perception of satisfaction' for 9001 would be laughed at. And rightly so, IMO.

I charge my clients 1200-1500 per day, and probably save them 10 times that much. Therefore, I don't need to work under a contract. We have a simple agreement. If they think they are getting their money's worth, then they can invite me back. So far, most of them invite me back. See, I can do all that and still have ethics!

I'd be interesting in knowing your current rate - how has the time between that post and the current financial crisis affected your rate?