Howdy everyone,

Just out of curiosity (and boredom) I thought I would do a poll to see how many people have engineering degrees and how many people have nothing. Feel free to post any thoughts you may have also.

Ummm........

Wow, make me actually think about this.:confused:

I guess I could probably add about 20 more options, but I'll leave it up to you to decide what you want to call yourself. :vfunny:

I couldn't decide what I wanted to do when I grew up and after getting out of the service I got a degree in Clinical Psych (doing the experiments not couseling). When there was no money in the lab work I got into the automotive field and went back for the Quality Engineering stuff. Now I want to go for the MBA but the $$$$ may keep me away, besides if I couldn't go full time it would take me way too long to get done.
:bonk: :thedeal: :confused:

BA: Biology
Minors: chemistry and anthropology.

skullsike said:

If you graduated from the college of engineering but the degree does not have engineering in the title,(such as mechanical engineering) but you still graduated from the college of engineering is that considered an engineering degree! :bonk:
I'd call that an engineering degree.

No engineering degree. Just have ASQ - CQE and am trying for CRE (2nd try)

Bill

BA: Journalism
Minor: Mathematics
Graduate work: Behavioral Science with a large dose of graduate-level statistics

I've seen Graduate "Engineers" who are still wet behind the ears come and go over the years and they normally run away screaming that they "just can't take it anymore" after about six months.
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Sorry folks but I did it the hard way. Long live apprenticeships I say.:frust: :frust: :frust:

HND in Mechanical and Production Engineering - currently topping this up to a BSc in Mechanical Design and Manufacture.

Associate Member of the Instute of Quality Assurance.

IRCA registered Internal Auditor.

Sorry folks but I did it the hard way.
Nothing wrong with that Geoff. When I started in the automotive arena I was assigned to work with a guy that had retired from Dearborn Gauge. Talk about someone who knew his way around a Bridgeport!!!!
The apprenticeship I did with him helped me get a job as a gage tech, and I went from there. I enjoy the new ideas from a raw engineer but it has to be moderated with the wisdom of experience.
Book smart is one thing and field application is another.

Hmmm... tough one. I have a Masters of Science in Quality Management. It's a joint degree from the College of Engineering and the School of Business Administration and I graduated with the Engineering students. So, what do I call it? I'm not an engineer, but have had industrial engineering courses and experience and work closely with the engineers in the plant (mechanical, electrical and industrial).

Cheers!!

Mike

well, you can go with psuedo engineer. 99% of the people I work with think that I am a metallurgist, even though I don't have the engineering degree. Or quasi is another term I use.

Have a good one!

Steel,

Being an engineer and having an engineering degree are, or can be, two different things, IMO. I've worked with some fine engineers who had no college degree whatsoever. I've worked with some folks who had an engineering degree that were poor to incompetent engineers. You seem to be a good example of the former. Performance is what counts in the end, at least to me.

Mike,

I have to agree with your comment. We have engineers here who think they are gods and are great out spouting their thoughts and opinions, but never do anything productive and are lost on the production floor. We also have technicians who handle all the issues and know more about the production floor than the engineers. Of course all of this has led to some great "debates" here. :vfunny:

How about a BAA? Industrial Supervision and Management

Sounds like a sheep :D

How does BSME sound.

20 years ago, and I haven't worked in the field directly yet.

Sorry - no degree here. Still doing it the 'hard' way. :p

Started working after school in a machine shop at age 14 - thought I might want to be a machinist when I grew up. 34 years later I'm still not sure what I want to be when I grow up. I've been working in the quality field for the last 23 years, first as a quality manager at a small hot-forge plant, and the last 15 years as a quality engineer at a large manufacturing facility. (Mainly automotive) For the last two years I have been earning my salary as one of those 'Six Sigma' guys. :frust: & :confused:

Anyway, really enjoy this site / forum - I've been using it as a reference for a long time and its been very helpful.

BS - Industrial Administration (Huh ?- production management stuff - a few engineering courses short of IE)
MS - Applied and Mathematical Statistics

Most engineers I work with think I have the diploma.

No engineering degree. Mine is in Biology, with excessive loads of chemistry and thankfully only two semesters of Physics.

So my resumes are tossed into the trash heap around here. What is it that makes companies confuse "quality" with "engineering" anyway??? What the heck difference does it make if I don't have 10 years experience with plastic extrusion or 10 years experience with pipeline field design, etc? Isn't the role of a quality professional to use the field knowledge of others to drive improvements?? Why in the world does everyone around here (my hometown, not the Cove) think that you have to have worked your way up from the factory floor?

Sorry..:o just blowing off steam. Can't you tell I'm still "looking"? The engineering degree requirement is really chafing my :ca: . After three months, I'm reaching the crossroads in deciding whether I should return to school and remain in quality, or just forget about it and move on to something else.

I guess the advantage to getting an engineering degree is that I might look really cute in glasses and a ponytail...;)

Hang in there, Lucinda. I know 3 months must be frustrating. :frust: I'm just guessing here, but I think the problem is that right now employers can afford to be really choosy as there are a good many people looking for not too many openings. Unemployment may not be way up, but I think many employed folks are underemployed and/or unsatisfied with where they are so there are lots of (employed and unemployed) people competing for few openings. So, companies are holding-out for someone with industry-specific knowledge thinking that is where they will get the best value -- which ain't necessarily so, but they think this way.

I know you're a smart gal, you just gotta get the chance to show it. I assume you have a good resume' -- have you had someone look it over with a critical eye just to be sure there isn't anything you might have missed? I assume you have also tried calling to follow-up on resume's you've sent and you have told everyone you know to keep you in mind if they see any openings.

Don't get too down -- it's not a reflection on your value as a QM or as a person. And feel free to vent more often here if it helps!

Good luck!

Ok, here's a degree pedigree from left field:

BFA in Fine Arts, minor in Museum Science.

All I can tell you is that life takes you some funny places.:eek:

Lucinda said:

No engineering degree. Mine is in Biology, with excessive loads of chemistry and thankfully only two semesters of Physics.

Why in the world does everyone around here (my hometown, not the Cove) think that you have to have worked your way up from the factory floor?

The engineering degree requirement is really chafing my :ca: . After three months, I'm reaching the crossroads in deciding whether I should return to school and remain in quality, or just forget about it and move on to something else.

I guess the advantage to getting an engineering degree is that I might look really cute in glasses and a ponytail...;)

Cinda,

My guess is you'd look cute in a shower cap. :biglaugh: Three months? Try 10 1/2 months. Age is also a factor and don't ever think it's not. I have no degree, of any kind. My resume opened with "An organized, detail oriented Quality Assurance/Control Professional with a record of advancement in positions of increasing responsibilities in the Quality Assurance/Control field. Experience includes Senior Management, Supervision, Quality Engineering, Hands-on Inspection Knowledge and disciplines and a broad awareness of the range of products, manufacturing and processes involved." Having held all types of titles, the basic functions remained the same. Imagine having the title of "Senior QA Engineer" without a degree? :vfunny: When I applied for this job, at a different company with the same people we have here in 1992, the ad was for a "Quality Engineer". Having "Senior QA Engineer" in my resume, got me in for a interview. After that, we are on our own. When asked why I think I should be offered the position, I said, unabashedly, "Well, you will get all kinds of QA/QC types (I'm taking suits here) with all kinds of paper (up the wazoo) applying for this position, but you will be hard pressed to find someone who has the hands on experience I have and with no qualms about getting my hands dirty. (After the walkaround and seeing what I would be required to do, I realized the position was really for a glorified Inspector who can assume the QA Mgr/Engineer/Safety Officer responsibilties when required). I also offered to work for a month, no compensation, to see my stuff. He said that he couldn't that , but, that got me a second interview and an offer, after 10 1/2 months of looking. I was 49. Lucky? Sure. But, I've been with them since then, with a short stint with another company due to a plant closing. The degree is not a measure of how you will perform in the workplace. Keep pluggin away. Like you, I saw that "degree required" a lot and, in my case, sent a resume anyway. Never got a interview from any of those. I said **** em and kept on going. Companies that put such stock in a degree, or specialized degree, can miss an opportunity to acquire employees that will perform as well as their "Schooled" counterparts.
An aside, what do you think I looked for in applicants? Trust me, a degree isn't one of them. Job history was far more important. But, that's me. See my signature? That's why I picked it! Good Luck. Keep us posted. :ko: :smokin:

I am sure you will find that most, if not all engineering degrees have little or absolutely no content on quality assurance or quality management - which is a story in itself !

M Greenaway said:

I am sure you will find that most, if not all engineering degrees have little or absolutely no content on quality assurance or quality management - which is a story in itself !

M.,

It's interesting that you said that. I overlooked the fact that all our Engineers, mostly degreed, could care less about what we are trying to do with ISO. They are too busy doing their jobs and making us money so we can pay the bills. Well said. We are a different breed, degreed or not. ;) :ko: :smokin:

I only had 4 required classes listed under "Quality" to earn a "Quality Engineering" degree. Out of those 4 classes I had 3 weeks (about 6 classes) on the intent of ISO/QS etc.
I guess since the word "quality" is so ambiguous that even the world of higher education is afraid to tackle it!

Over here there is no such thing as a 'quality engineering' degree. I guess no-one sees quality as engineering, or maybe exclusive to engineering. There are 'quality' degrees but they tend to be BSc (science) degrees, or even BA (arts) degrees.

Strange huh !

I have no degree just a certificate in TQM from the local 2 year and a lead auditor and internal auditor certificate with several seminars under my belt. Luckily knowledge and experience played a big role in the job I have. I feel that degrees will play a lesser role in the future.

The piece of paper tossed somewhere in my basement say Mechanical Engineering. The transcript...somewhere else in the basement...says minor in Management. All my artsie courses from 2nd year and up were business-related.

First thing I learned upon graduation was the real world ain't nothing like school. Second thing I learned was that my work experience prior to graduation would save my butt in the real world.

A piece of paper is often indicative of your capabilities...capability to learn, capability to be logical, capability to think outside of the box. These are skills also learned at school...be it from an Engineering programme, an English programme, or even (I can't believe I'm saying this) a Political Science programme.

Every road in this journey of life is unique for each of us...that's why we always have entertaining discussions in the Cove.

BA: English
MA: English Literature

Current job: Corporate Quality Engineer


After years of teaching English (mostly composition, some literature) at the college level, the economy decided that I needed to find a new position (good economy = fewer students = fewer professors).

(As an aside, I taught a lot of future engineers because I was the designated remedial composition instructor.)

I started as an Admin Assistant at a local tier one supplier ("what else can an English major do?" I naievely thought). I volunteered do to internal quality audits and they sent me to a slew of training.

With those pieces of paper under my arm, I left and was an internal performance consultant with a national airline when the economy again intervened in my plans (bad economy = fewer people flying = fewer people working at airlines).

Now, I'm a Corporate Quality Engineer for another tier one supplier doing internal quality audits and internal quality consulting for a living.

That's what I call a career path--long and winding.

Colleen

AS - Electrical Engineering
BS - Business Administration, Operations Management

I took the 12 year plan. I fell into a job as a quality inspector, which turned into quality engineer, and I realized I did not want to be an EE. Switched to business after getting the AS degree. It was fun learning "how business worked" in school while often seeing the complete opposite in the real world. Had tons of fun in my last operations management class which was basically quality control learning things like SPC after already getting a CQE, CQA and CQMgr. After my professor told us ISO 9000 was called that because "it had about 9000 requirements" I started showing up only for tests.

BS: Manufacturing Engineering Technology
Minor: Japanese

This degree actually did have quality-related classes required! While I was in school, I did three co-ops, all of which were in the quality field. I taught the labs for one of the quality classes. That was about as much quality focus as I could get in any degree offered.

My question is how does a CQE rate versus a BS/BA?
There are millions of BS/BA people out ther, but only approx. 25k CQEs that have studied, and passed the body of knowledge required to be a quailty professional. Many with BS/BA cannot pass the examination. But, employers are so hung up on the degrees, they won't even interview you without one.
So, a CQE with 25 years hands on experience in quality engineering, and quality management is equivalent to what?
Any comments?:frust:

I've had some interviews where it seemed my CQE, CQA and CQMgr were worth more than my B.S. and A.S. degree. Degrees were "I see you have a degree", while the ASQ certs generated more interest.

I don't know that you could equate a CQE with a degree - CQE is much more technical and specific. Even with my major as operations management I only had two classes that really touched on any CQE material - and very basic level stuff in class.

The CQ Manager seemed to touch on much more of the B.S. Business Admin material - I even used some of my textbooks as references during the test. Since I took the 12 year plan to an AS (elect. eng.) and BS, I found the real world work experience taught me more than school did - professors seem to live the the fantasy world where all decisions are made on facts, ROI, etc. I think they need to add a "Corporate Politics" class as a basic requirement to see how things often happen in the real world. Perhaps all Dilbert books need to be required reading.

Not an Engineer either. I have a B.S. in Geological Sciences and an A.S. in Business Administration, how the heck did I end up with a medical company, after 10 years in Banking???

For positions I've applied for, a degree was generally required. In many cases, they don't care what degree you have. My experience has been that the CQE, CQMgr, and CQA just served to distinguish between one applicant and others meeting their minimum requirements.

I have three degrees, but none in engineering:

B.A., Anthropology
M.A., Social Sciences (Anthropology, Sociology, Geography)
D.P.A., Public Administration (Business Administration/Political Science)

My career has been mostly in the Federal and State Government:
7 years as an Archaeologist
23 years in Environmental field
5 years in Quality

It seems like my certifications are worth more than my degrees: RAB-certified EMS Lead Auditor, REM (Registered Environmental Manager), CEHS (Certified Environmental Health and Safety Manager), CEPL (Certified Environmental Professional in Louisiana)

I spent five years in the Quality field and missed getting RAB certification in QMS (too cheap to pay for two) or ASQ certifications.

Brent Smith

B. S. Civil Engineering (Virginia Tech, 1981) But no, never built any bridges or roads.

M. S. Operations Research (Naval Postgraduate School, 1988)

B.S. Chemical Engineering, University of Cincinnati
MBA Finance, Marshall University

Actually did work as a real engineer doing refinery process design, technical service, and even worked as an operator during a 3 month strike.

Also actually used my MBA degree doing business expansion ROI analysis, developing budgets, strategic plans and cost accounting systems.

Many people talk about fire fighting on the job but I actually did have to put out real fires.

Bill Pflanz

I have done B.Tech in Civil Engineering from Regional Engineering College and done my M.Tech (Post Graduate in Engineering and Technology) from UOR (Now is an IIT, Indian Institute of Technology). Post Graduation was in CAD (Computer Aided Design).

After that I have done MBA in Marketing.

This is an ongoing fun debate with me and my better half.

She graduated from a Top 10 Engineering School with a Bachelors in Ceramic Engineering. She later graduated from the same Top 10 Engineering School with a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. She has held some rather impressive titles and positions with Tier 1 suppliers, Aerospace and now a Defense Supplier. She started as a Quality Engineer and now is a Senior Supplier Quality Engineer. Here is her only detractor - she only has 4 years "real world" experience. She conducted 3 co-ops while in school, but other than that and her 4 years that is it.

I on the other hand, have a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice from an average school in the Midwest. My parents are so proud, they spent $100,000 for me to drink and party (oh yeah I got a real nice parchment with some calligraphy on it too) I have over 10 years experience in Manufacturing now. I started as a Line Lead on the Manufacturing floor and now I am in top management.

The fun debate is that I tend to advance more rapidly than my spouse with greater pay increases. Sometimes it causes :argue: but mostly in good fun.

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO ATTITUDE AND APPROACH.

Just some thoughts....

Here is my other rant on this subject. Bear with me. I think I have probably said this on here before, but it seems relevant here

I hire for a quite a few positions. Some of them Quality, some of them Engineering, some of them Manufacturing etc. Kids coming out of college nowadays have this sense of entitlement. They think they are owed something, or they think they are not worthy of an entry level position. Maybe it is California, I do not know.

My most recent hire was a Manufacturing Engineer. I wanted someone who could bring some current methodology and technology into our company. I wanted someone who could learn our business, someone who would be receptive to learning, someone who did not have 10 years of "bad habits", someone who could work on Process Improvement, someone who knew what a FMEA was, etc. I posted the position at several universities here in Southern CA. First off, I got more resumes from people with no related degree or experience. With my background, I lean more toward a philosophical fit (I am not a degreed engineer, see prior post for the whole story) Secondly, I wanted entry level, as I am only paying $40 - $50,000. I would ask in the phone screen what they were looking to make and I got everything from $55,000 to $90,000. (I actually had a third year BSME student tell me, he thought he was worth $90K). When I would find a candidate that was worth bringing in they declined and said the were going after the higher salary companies. (I paraphrased of course) I conducted salary.com surveys, monster surveys and I was right in line. Where was this coming from?

I finally had an advisor from CSULB call me and asked why I passed on his student (she was well degreed and well qualified) I told him she wanted $60,000 and that was not my pay range. He told me that I was under the market. Then it hit me like a Mack truck. The students are getting this sense of entitlement from their advisors and professors.

I ended up hiring a different great gal and she is taking the place by storm.

BTW she has a degree in Library Sciences.

Just some thoughts.....

This is an ongoing fun debate with me and my better half.

She graduated from a Top 10 Engineering School with a Bachelors in Ceramic Engineering. She later graduated from the same Top 10 Engineering School with a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. She has held some rather impressive titles and positions with Tier 1 suppliers, Aerospace and now a Defense Supplier. She started as a Quality Engineer and now is a Senior Supplier Quality Engineer. Here is her only detractor - she only has 4 years "real world" experience. She conducted 3 co-ops while in school, but other than that and her 4 years that is it.

I on the other hand, have a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice from an average school in the Midwest. My parents are so proud, they spent $100,000 for me to drink and party (oh yeah I got a real nice parchment with some calligraphy on it too) I have over 10 years experience in Manufacturing now. I started as a Line Lead on the Manufacturing floor and now I am in top management.

The fun debate is that I tend to advance more rapidly than my spouse with greater pay increases. Sometimes it causes :argue: but mostly in good fun.

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO ATTITUDE AND APPROACH.

Just some thoughts....Statistically, women earn less than men (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/01/business/women.html).

:topic:

I know this is not in line with this topic, so maybe it will get moved, but I heard an intersting article on NPR a few weeks back.

There was/is a advertising, marketing firm in Chicago that hires approximately 120 graduates a year. (Yes, 120 a year!) They recruit from some of the top schools in the nation. There are no preset salary ranges, if the firm feels you are worth $100K right our school and you ASK for it, you get $100K. You get the drift. So here is the rub. The managing partner did a study for one year. Of his 340 or so applicants for 2002 here are the statistics, 216 male candidates and 124 female candidates. 61% of all candidates were caucasian, 19% were African American and the remaining were a mix of approximately 5 ethnicities.

When it came to the final interview with the managing partner, discussing salary, the female candidates ASKED for less salary vs. the male candidates. Not just less by a couple hundred, but predominately across the board 33% less. African American candidates ASKED for less salary vs. Caucasian candidates. A smaller gap of only 18%. The minority mix of candidates also ASKED for less salary vs. the Caucasian and African American candidates by approximately 14%.

Is this the typical "White Male Bravado"? Are women programmed to think they are less than equal? Are minorities in the mindset they are not worth as much?

NO

The same managing partner did another study in 2003. Pretty much the same numbers (for sake of space) but the final interview was conducted by an African American Woman Senior Partner. The numbers were almost all reversed. White males asked for less, White females asked for more and African American women asked for the most.

What does that say? This story was truly a driveway moment.

Just some thoughts.....

I really love NPR. They always have these stories that you don't hear anywhere else.

This is very thought provoking, especially for those companies that are trying to attract more women and minorities.

I can't speak to the differences in race or ethnicity, but it has been my experience that I get far less feedback interviewing with a man vs a woman. I get less body language, less eye contact, and fewer verbal cues. So I'm less sure where i am in the interview and if I've hit the mark. Or maybe, being female, I am not attuned to the male cues? That could certainly be.

As an archetypal WASP executive, I knew I was an intimidating figure as I sat in my pin-striped three-piece suit across the table from job applicants. I also knew (and consciously tried to keep it from swaying my decision) that I was intimidated and fearful sitting across the table from females and people of different ethnic background because of horror stories I heard from other WASP executives of discrimination suits, women trying to use "charm," and other, worse, experiences. As a consequence, I was much more uptight and certainly less expansive and friendly when interviewing these folks. This only enhanced my intimidation factor and probably made them more fearful and uptight in return. It was a vicious, self-perpetuating cycle.

The only times I was able to break such a cycle and have a meaningful, friendly, productive interview was if I could find and focus on some point in the cover letter or resume right at the beginning of the interview to give the applicant an opportunity to open up and do some talking about a topic where he/she wasn't trying to impress me with technical skill about the job.

For example, if one of the resume items was from a location far away, I could ask, "I see you once worked in Timbuktu. I've never been there. What was it like?" OR "I see you went to 'mega university.' Did you have have time to join any of the bajillion groups and organizations on campus? What was it like?"

Once they loosened up, I was able to loosen up. If anything, the ability to make some small talk during an interview is important from both sides of the table. If something happens to prevent that (fear, prejudice, language barrier), then the barrier can be almost insurmountable, unless the employer is absolutely desperate to have the skill set represented by the candidate.

As an archetypal WASP executive, I knew I was an intimidating figure as I sat in my pin-striped three-piece suit across the table from job applicants.

Wes, you have nothing on Admiral Rickover. Now, there was an interviewer that was out to intimidate you. Yes, I went through such an interview.

women trying to use "charm,"

Oh no, not CHARM! :mg: Bold, brazen hussies! :lol:

I have a Masters in Engineering and an MBA. Mostly cause I love to learn (definitely not for the money).

I am trying to steer my kids towards the skilled trades.

A friends son has dropped out of college and is apprenticing as a stone mason. She hates it, I think it is an excellent choice. No one want to do real work anymore, he will always be in demand and his own boss.

If I had it all to do again I'd be an electrician or moldmaker.

Me?

Bachelor's in Applied Science, chemical engineering. Still waiting on a clear explanation of the differences between an applied science degree and an engineering degree...most grads these days are applied science grads. Getting two years' worth of work experience through my school's co-op program definitely helped in the job market. (Helped the bank account, too - you can't pay for school by flipping burgers through the summer!)

Is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? Don't know. I come from a line of engineers, and it's no question that chemistry and math are my strengths - the combination of the two what drew me to engineering in the first place. However, I know what my weaknesses are as well - a little too well - and it trips me up from performing because I don't believe strongly enough that I can do it. Would I prefer lab work to plant work? Definitely.

Gaining knowledge from those around you can also be difficult when those around you automatically assume that you're a pompous :ca: just because you're a young engineer. I don't claim to be brilliant - in fact, I'm often told that I go too far the other way and underestimate myself...and hearing the old "you've got a lot to learn" from those who are attempting to stroke their own egos can be quite frustrating. I know that I have a lot to learn. I never claimed otherwise.

Just a thought - there is another side to the coin as well.

Me?

Bachelor's in Applied Science, chemical engineering. Still waiting on a clear explanation of the differences between an applied science degree and an engineering degree...most grads these days are applied science grads.At least 18 credit hours

One related thought - I heard on multiple occasions at the American Society for Quality annual conference (WCQI) this year the quote:

"Quality isn't just for engineers and mathemeticians anymore"

As an engineer, I don't quite know whether to be offended or not, but perhaps the quote does explain ASQ's turning its back on the "traditional" members. . .

I also are wondering that if it is neccessary to have a engineering degree if you want to work for quality. my curiosity. folks

One related thought - I heard on multiple occasions at the American Society for Quality annual conference (WCQI) this year the quote:

"Quality isn't just for engineers and mathemeticians anymore"

As an engineer, I don't quite know whether to be offended or not, but perhaps the quote does explain ASQ's turning its back on the "traditional" members. . .

Steve and other engineers -- don't be offended. Be jubliant! It's about time those "other working folks" figured out what you learned many moons ago -- these tools and techniques in the world of quality work anywhere! If more people understood them, maybe we would have an easier time with our managers.

Now, of course, most of these non-engineer/math types will not ever have the level of comprehension that you do, but at least they will understand what you are doing conceptually. How cool is that?

I'll share a story of a student of mine who works in a co-op (intern) position for a health care group that does much of its work at schools (kind of like a rent-a-school-nurse program). (As an aside, for those of you who haven't heard from me before, I teach a quality improvement course at a local university.) Now this student is a marketing major, and works at this health care group in that capacity. One day, the office manager (the intern student's boss) was lamenting about ways to provide better staffing, so students didn't have to wait so long to be served. The office manager needed to get a 'handle' on the scope of this problem. AHA! thought the intern, I know about run charts, pareto diagrams, and C&E diagrams. She took a chance, and talked to the office manager. She told her she had some ideas about how to analyze the problem. The office manager was pleasantly surprised, and thanked the intern for taking this initiative, even though is wasn't part of her job. Last I heard, they were working the issue. The office manager told the intern that she was glad this university had such a practical focus!

I just love it when we get another convert!

Rachel,

Now that you have asked about Bachelor of Applied Science, I just realized why it is easy to be confused by higher education terminology. There was another thread about what is the difference between a college and university in the U.S. I received a bachelor of science degree in chemical engineering through the University of Cincinnati's College of Engineering. That means that I went to both a college and university at the same time. :confused: Confused enough now?

More than likely we have the same degree and learned the same thing. My university was one of the earliest or maybe even the first to offer co-op programs in the U.S. In fact, all engineers are required to co-op and the degree actually takes 5 years since you alternate between classroom learning and working in the profession during the middle 3 years. What I earned paid for all my tuition and books. Since it is a local university and I could live at home, I came out of college with no debt and a new car.

My last job was with a bank and I was not the only chemical engineer there. Who knows where you may end but it may not necessarily be doing what you do now. I think I was described as a a pompous :ca: by some people when I was young and then again when I was older. When you are young, you hear that you don't know anything and when you get older you hear that you just know the past. It sounds like you need quite a few more years of seasoning before you really see the other side of the coin.

Bill Pflanz

All the way from an AA in aircraft instrumentation and electronics, a BA two Master degrees and finally finished with a doctorate in Systems. :bonk:

More than likely we have the same degree and learned the same thing. My university was one of the earliest or maybe even the first to offer co-op programs in the U.S. In fact, all engineers are required to co-op and the degree actually takes 5 years since you alternate between classroom learning and working in the profession during the middle 3 years. What I earned paid for all my tuition and books. Since it is a local university and I could live at home, I came out of college with no debt and a new car.

Sounds similar. Five years, no breaks, four months at school, then four months at work; repeat five times (or as many as desired, in some cases); finish with eight straight months of school and then walk across a little stage in a polyester gown in a non-air-conditioned hall in mid-June and think "what just happened?". Had some help - didn't pay for it all myself - not at $4000/4-month term (and that's just tuition!) - but co-op did help me to break even. (Note: the author thanks her enginerd father, who had the foresight to plot her brother's climbing tuition seven years earlier...and thought "holy &$%!".)

I think I was described as a a pompous :ca: by some people when I was young and then again when I was older. When you are young, you hear that you don't know anything and when you get older you hear that you just know the past. It sounds like you need quite a few more years of seasoning before you really see the other side of the coin.

Yup, that's the truth. And by that point - who knows if I'll still even be following the engineering path?...I always was more partial to the "chemical" than the "engineering" of it, anyway.

When I was applying to school, it was a toss-up between engineer and pharmacist. 'Twill be interesting to see if I chose the right path...or whether frustration will shoo me out the door!

I always was more partial to the "chemical" than the "engineering" of it, anyway.
Many have been tripped up by too much time with the "chemicals" and not enough with the engineering.:biglaugh:

Many have been tripped up by too much time with the "chemicals" and not enough with the engineering.:biglaugh:

I checked your profile and obviously you are a child of the 1960's. Of course if you remember the 60's then it has been said that you must not have been there. :D

Peace brother. (we need a smily peace sign, anyone have one?)

Bill Pflanz

I don't have an engineering degree, however I -=DO=- hold a Masters Foreign Going, Any Ocean, Any Tonnage.....must be pretty close (and if I could get a damm JOB doing it, I'd make more $$$ than most engineers, too :bonk: )

I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and MS in Industrial Engineering from Texas A&M University. I have 3 conference presentations on TQM and right now I work as a ~Quality Engineer with a great but confused company.

My boss has a MS in Plant Life or something like that but he is a great boss. Most of the people in my company do not have a degree but experience and I think they do an awesome job however on the other hand most of them are sacred cows too.

I get a hard time explaining people that its not an operator's fault but process failure. However as soon as something happens, the first reaction of most - "I didnt do it, they did it".

I think an engineering degree definately helps you out in your Problem Solving skills. And if you were active on campus with various leadership roles, it makes you better at People Skills. Combine that with the social skills from partying and the right attitude, thats the best Quality Engineer person in my opinion.

AA Engineering
ASQ CQE, CQA, CRE
Every since I got the ASQ CQE certification, I have worked in positons that required a BS in Engineering. In most of my jobs, I knew someone at the company to represent me, then was hired based on my experience and interview.
I have been laid off from four jobs due to downsizing or a merger.
I've been a Final inspector, in-process and incomming Inspector and Supervisor, Supplier QE, Sr. Supplier QE, and Sr. QE for manufacturing support and MRB.
The last time I was unemployed for 9 1/2 months and feel that the lack of a BS degree had the most effect on not getting interviews (too much competion with BS degrees.)
I have been working on contract as a Senior Quality Engineer for a year, hired to help improve the Quality System after an internal audit. Conducting internal audits, writing Process FMEAs and Equipment FMEAs.
They were finally able to open a regular positon for me. The Sr. Quality Manager hired me based on my experience as a Sr. QE, but can not offer that title as a regular employee because the Corporation does not have a BS or equivalent policy. So they plan to offer a job tiltle of Internal Quality Autitor which requires a AA degree.

I have enrolled in a BSQA degree program through CSU Dominquez Hills, Extended Education program.
I dropped out of school working on a BSEE over 20 years ago.
I have to take about 43 units to get a BS in Quality Assurance with specialty in Metrology. I had to start out with Fundamentals of Quality and Fundamentals of Metrology (which would have been undergraduate classes had I started school there.)
I noticed the classes offered to prepare for the ASQ CQE test are the MSQA courses at CSU DOminquez Hills. So it will take me two years to get the BSQA and it should be pretty easy, but time consuming.
I will see if I can get an agreement to switch my postion back to the Quality Engineer range once I get the BS. Plan to continue on for the MSQA.

Jim

Nothing personal, but I think that the "English" example is very sad and somehow explains the level of quality in North America.

Nothing personal, but I think that the "English" example is very sad and somehow explains the level of quality in North America.
So it's your opinion that auditors are responsible for product quality???

So it's your opinion that auditors are responsible for product quality???
By the way you've formulated it, your question is asking for a cliché answer: given that "Quality is Everyone's Job", auditors are also responsible. I am not a strong supporter of the audit system and of the "audit mode" everyone turns into from time to time during the audit period. As a mater of fact my remark was targeting the lack of understanding (therefore- consideration) that some companies show to Quality; the "English" example showed clearly that any one can fill a key position in Quality and if they have good communication skills they are subjected to career advancement, or even- and this is rich- consulting. (It is interesting you didn't ask what "quality level" I was talking about, and thank you for that).

By the way you've formulated it, your question is asking for a cliché answer: given that "Quality is Everyone's Job", auditors are also responsible.
But you made a statement that linked the "quality level" in North America to the "sad" idea that a person with degrees in English has a job as an auditor. I can't help it if the best answer you can come up with is a cliché.
As a mater of fact my remark was targeting the lack of understanding (therefore- consideration) that some companies show to Quality; the "English" example showed clearly that any one can fill a key position in Quality and if they have good communication skills they are subjected to career advancement, or even- and this is rich- consulting.
I think you just compounded the original insult. In fact all you've presented is a a series of non sequiturs. The fact that a person with an advanced degree in English has an auditing job is apropos of nothing, and you have no way of knowing whether any individual is competent or not if your judgement is based strictly on the academic background of the person in question. In point of fact, I once worked with a wholly incompetent QE who had two advanced degrees in engineering, and one of the best all-around quality people I have known had a degree in Recreation and Parks Administration.
(It is interesting you didn't ask what "quality level" I was talking about, and thank you for that).
I didn't ask because the answer was implicit in your post; I doubt that you would consider it "sad" that an English major was contributing to something you perceived as positive.

After reading this thread, I am compelled to respond.

I have no engineering degree, not even a BS degree, heck I dont even have a math degree. I have a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice (Pre-Law). I have worked my katookis off and managed to become Director of Quality Systems. Not to be arrogant, but I am pretty darn good at it. The only reason I am in the position I am in - HARD WORK, LOYALTY and DEDICATION. To achieve a top management position it is REQUIRED to be an effective communicator, no matter the department. I will be honest kokodril, your comments are a personal affront to me and those like me.

Here is a real world example - Steve Jobs, founder and prez of Apple - dropped out of college. Where did he get his creative side? Dropping in on a Calligraphy class, just for fun. Shame he did not have a Computer Science degree.

My father has a degree in Botany. He is currently the Director of MIS for the second largest heavy truck manufacturer in North America. Too bad he did not have that MSCE certificate or a Computer Science Degree.

As for the Quality in America and your comment - I will not even dignify that with a response, save for the fact my company (not because of me necessarily) has beaten out several EU and Canadian manufacturers from some huge new business opportunities due to our level of Quality.

To be completly candid, I find your comments offensive and obtuse. In the future, please focus your comments and attention on the question or scenario set before us all in this forum and leave personal attacks out of the picture. Opinions are great and we all like to read different viewpoints, however when it attacks an individual or an individual's background then it is uncalled for and out of line.

I take it this response was directed at Kokodril?

Yes it was. I apologize if it came off as misdirected.

I have a BSc Media Technology with Business.

Not really anything to do with what I do now, although I learnt my project management skills at Uni and obviously the Business things are handy to have if you work in this area.

I am however only young and am laways learning! Would like to get some more qualifications in the project management field though.

BSME here... :bigwave:

I thought I had replied to this but I had only voted. No degree (Sorry). I should have as they are so cheap when compared to the U.S

I only have the following:


Trade Qualification as an Electrical Fitter,
Advanced Certificate in Aircraft Electrics,
Certifcate in Vocational Instruction,
Certificate IV in Workplace Assessment and Training,
Associate Diploma in Applied Science (Engineering), and
Diploma in Front Line Management (Dip Mgmt).


QA was a natural progression after 20 years in the services working on Aircraft.

No degree.

Sometimes I wonder if I should even be reading this forum. I am greatly outclassed by most/all of the regular posters on this site.

I have a vacational certificate in machine operation, I went to jobcorps to become a machinist after getting out of highschool and three years of scrubbing toilets for a living. On a field trip in jobcorps I took an interest in Coordinate Measurement Machines. I have been doing that for ten years now and am currently with a company that is very "lean". My current title is Quality Technician. My duties include pushing paper, floor inspections, programming the CMM, and now writing QMS/EMS operating procedures and combining our TS 16949 quality system with our ISO 14001 environmental system.

Thats my career path. I voted vocational in the poll.

No degree.

Sometimes I wonder if I should even be reading this forum. I am greatly outclassed by most/all of the regular posters on this site.

I have a vacational certificate in machine operation, I went to jobcorps to become a machinist after getting out of highschool and three years of scrubbing toilets for a living. On a field trip in jobcorps I took an interest in Coordinate Measurement Machines. I have been doing that for ten years now and am currently with a company that is very "lean". My current title is Quality Technician. My duties include pushing paper, floor inspections, programming the CMM, and now writing QMS/EMS operating procedures and combining our TS 16949 quality system with our ISO 14001 environmental system.

Thats my career path. I voted vocational in the poll.
Good for you! Shows us all the value of perserverence in creating a niche for yourself.

No degree.

Sometimes I wonder if I should even be reading this forum. I am greatly outclassed by most/all of the regular posters on this site.
I think that the thing that distinguishes most of the regulars here is not academic achievement, but experience and a willingness to share it with others. I'm sure you qualify on both counts, so you shouldn't feel outclassed. BTW, I don't have a degree either, and if I did have one it would probably have been in liberal arts or science as opposed to engineering. As Paul Simon said, my lack of education hasn't hurt me none, and as Bob Dylan said, you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing:D .

:topic: liberal arts or science as opposed to engineering.

IMO, you qualify on experience alone for a Phd in "Liberal" Arts. :lol:

:topic:

IMO, you qualify on experience alone for a Phd in "Liberal" Arts. :lol:You're skating on thin ice.

B.S in Systems Engineering
B.S in Engineering Management
Working on M.S in Systems Engineering


Its not that hard. I know people who have degrees in social sciences, yet have turned out to be excellent engineers. Its all about attitude, aptitude and hard work.:agree1:

I'm an statistician. What am I doing among engineers. But I met a quality manager who was Micro Biologist & working in the packaging factory as a quality manager. His efforts paying off.:applause:
Another thing which sometimes bothers me is that those people who are qualified & have experince don't get jobs in their field of study. positively

Higher National Certificate (Vocational qualification) in Manufacturing/Mechanical Engineering
Working on BEng at the moment to be upgraded to MEng after. Then onwards as IE/CEng

:D

BS Industrial Engineering.

Steel,

Being an engineer and having an engineering degree are, or can be, two different things, IMO. I've worked with some fine engineers who had no college degree whatsoever. I've worked with some folks who had an engineering degree that were poor to incompetent engineers. You seem to be a good example of the former. Performance is what counts in the end, at least to me.

This always pissed me off.
I've worked for a couple of place where you were not allowed to give someone the word "engineer" in their title if they did not have an engineering degree. I had a guy with a computer science degree I wanted to make a QA Engineer.
HR: "Nope. You can make him an 'engineering technician' though".
Me: "But he's way more than that."
HR: "All of our engineers have degrees"
Me: "He's got a degree in computer science"
HR: "But it's not Engineering"
Me: "You know, the best Engineer I ever worked with, who had a tremendous influence on my career, had no more than an Associates in Drafting. He solved every problem put in front of him."
HR: "But that was not this company"
Me: "Look - think about this - An Engineer is as an Engineer does. Does our president/CEO have a degree in Entrepreneuring?"
HR: "No, there is no such thing".
Me: "No - in fact our CEO never finished college. That's public knowledge."
HR: "Um, yes but..."
Me: "Just think about it, OK?"


I got laid off a couple of months later. :lol:

No degree.
Handed in my notice as an inspector but got offered this job and took it. (life is one big surprise)
I just have an eye for detail and a nose to tell me that something is wrong. Am inquisitive enough to keep asking questions and have enough knowledge of life to know BS when I hear it.
Oh and am not too proud to know that I don't have the answers but someone else does and they're someone elses procedures/processes anyway, so they can tell me how they can get it right. I just monitor and make sure they do.:magic:

Hmmm, thought I'd responded to this thread, but on checking I haven't. None of the poll choices exactly fits:
BS in Metallurgy & Materials Science from Carnegie Mellon University 1974 (Yes, that is an engineering degree, not a science degree.)
MBA with an emphasis in operations from the University of Pittsburgh 1990
CQA - 1999
RAB 16 Hr lead Auditor Course - 2004
ASQ Manger of Quality and Organizational Excellence (MoQ/OE (?)) 2006
All of the above & $ 1.05 (I live in PA) will get me a half decent cup of coffee. :)
I've worked as a metallurgist, lab manager, field engineer for industrial gases - probably the most fun job, and currently as a QA (ISO 9001 & ISO/TS system) engineer.

Interestingly enough, many of my metallurgy professors did not have PHD's. A number just had their BS - of course, they were recognized as experts in their field. One was consulting with the US government regarding premature wing failures in F-15's - used all sorts of examples for our class in mechanical metallurgy that were probably classified. Another, had been involved in the investigations as to why Liberty ships were failing in the North Atlantic during WWII - he'd retired from the US Navy as a rear admiral.

A great group of eccentric men who made learning interesting and fun by bringing actual examples into the classroom.

Of course, we also had folks like the one professor from France who believed in oral finals - an extreme shock to someone who had grown up in the American system of schooling. :eek:

Alas, they're all retired and long gone from CMU. The metallurgy department is much more uniform and PHD now.

For working in the quality field it's much better to have an Engineering degree.
Now as a student I'm taking a large training course on safety management and all my colleges that are from other different areas, are passing a hard time here.
But in Portugal even the Prime Minister is engineer…:biglaugh:

I have a Bachelor's of Science with a concentration in Engineering Physics. Pretty close to an engineering degree. I took the Engineer in Training exam and passed it. I used to have a CQE.

BS Architecture
BS Manufacturing Engineering
75% completed MBA
CQE
CRE
CQA
RABQSA QMS LA
ADEQ level 3 license in Water treatment and watse water treatment

BA Technical Theatre
Then a Masters of Aeronautical Science.

I still want to continue collecting degrees and certs.

Industrial Engineer in Spain (7 years) and Master in Safety (1 year)

with allow me to have the capability in: Mechanical, Production Engineering, Civil Enginnering, Chemestry, Electricity areas.

The title in Spain is global and allow you to sign all projects within the Industry.

:notme:

No engineering degree, 25 years experience at the same company, 8 years in quality department as an inspector, 17 years working in the gage field doing calibrations and designing gages. Now i'm listed as a Qality Engineering analyst.

For working in the quality field it's much better to have an Engineering degree.
Now as a student I'm taking a large training course on safety management and all my colleges that are from other different areas, are passing a hard time here.
But in Portugal even the Prime Minister is engineer…:biglaugh:


Prime Minister is engineer Really?

Prime Minister is engineer Really?

http://www.portugal.gov.pt/Portal/EN/Primeiro_Ministro/

Thanks for the info Jim. Doesn't that tell a tale.:thanks:

He's a cutie too! Nothing like a hot Prime Minister! ;)

He's a cutie too! Nothing like a hot Prime Minister! ;)


Rosie, Rosie, Rosie, thats naughty

Rosie, Rosie, Rosie, thats naughty

:D Hey, I'm just saying...

As well as that - we say "where there's muck there's money". So what more could you want looks and money. Let's hope for your sake he doesn't use oh de toilet.:bigwave:

This always pissed me off.
I've worked for a couple of place where you were not allowed to give someone the word "engineer" in their title if they did not have an engineering degree. I had a guy with a computer science degree I wanted to make a QA Engineer.
HR: "Nope. You can make him an 'engineering technician' though".
Me: "But he's way more than that."
HR: "All of our engineers have degrees"
Me: "He's got a degree in computer science"
HR: "But it's not Engineering"
Me: "You know, the best Engineer I ever worked with, who had a tremendous influence on my career, had no more than an Associates in Drafting. He solved every problem put in front of him."
HR: "But that was not this company"
Me: "Look - think about this - An Engineer is as an Engineer does. Does our president/CEO have a degree in Entrepreneuring?"
HR: "No, there is no such thing".
Me: "No - in fact our CEO never finished college. That's public knowledge."
HR: "Um, yes but..."
Me: "Just think about it, OK?"


I got laid off a couple of months later. :lol:

Hope you're working again Discordian!

...as for me - BSME from PSU

The above quote brings to mind a couple stories;

I worked for an Independent Test lab in the construction/fenestration industry right out of college (they created a Quality Engineering position for me upon graduation - I was working full time as a Technician thru college). I passed my E.I.T. exam and was working with a P.E. at the company. I asked him if he thought I should go through the requisit experience and get my P.E. license. He relayed to me that he had been a member of the local PSPE (PA Society of Professional Engineers) chapter and upon receiving his P.E. lisense, the group welcomed him to the next meeting with open arms. His response was, "Just because I passed the P.E. exam, doesn't mean I'm any smarter today than I was yesterday before I got the license." ...Comment was obviously not well accepted from the group.:notme: I think this endorses all the Quality Professionals that don't have degrees in a round about way.

The second story was for another company I worked for that was paying for and recognizing "mail order" engineering degrees. I had one of the guys I worked with come up to me and ask, "Since you have a "real" engineering degree, what do you think about these "mail order" degress?" My response was that if the the company was willing to pay for the degree and recognize if for promotion, then by all means - GO FOR IT! My only caution was that, getting a degree from a "non-acredited" "university" may not carry a lot of weight outside the four walls of the current company (to Discordian's point above).

I guess some companies have adopted the "can't call 'em and engineer without a degree" mentality from the E.I.T./P.E. perspective (see Story #1). If you talk to those folks, the only "engineers" are professionally licensed. I've been a Quality Engineer, Senior Quality Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, Senior Manufacturing Engineer, Principal Engineer, Design Engineer and now back to "just" a Quality Engineer in my current position - all as an "Engineer in Training" (E.I.T.). I guess it all depends who you work for and the job you do!

Just one humble opinion...:)

Hope you're working again Discordian!

...as for me - BSME from PSU

The above quote brings to mind a couple stories;

I worked for an Independent Test lab in the construction/fenestration industry right out of college (they created a Quality Engineering position for me upon graduation - I was working full time as a Technician thru college). I passed my E.I.T. exam and was working with a P.E. at the company. I asked him if he thought I should go through the requisit experience and get my P.E. license. He relayed to me that he had been a member of the local PSPE (PA Society of Professional Engineers) chapter and upon receiving his P.E. lisense, the group welcomed him to the next meeting with open arms. His response was, "Just because I passed the P.E. exam, doesn't mean I'm any smarter today than I was yesterday before I got the license." ...Comment was obviously not well accepted from the group.:notme: I think this endorses all the Quality Professionals that don't have degrees in a round about way.

The second story was for another company I worked for that was paying for and recognizing "mail order" engineering degrees. I had one of the guys I worked with come up to me and ask, "Since you have a "real" engineering degree, what do you think about these "mail order" degress?" My response was that if the the company was willing to pay for the degree and recognize if for promotion, then by all means - GO FOR IT! My only caution was that, getting a degree from a "non-acredited" "university" may not carry a lot of weight outside the four walls of the current company (to Discordian's point above).

I guess some companies have adopted the "can't call 'em and engineer without a degree" mentality from the E.I.T./P.E. perspective (see Story #1). If you talk to those folks, the only "engineers" are professionally licensed. I've been a Quality Engineer, Senior Quality Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, Senior Manufacturing Engineer, Principal Engineer, Design Engineer and now back to "just" a Quality Engineer in my current position - all as an "Engineer in Training" (E.I.T.). I guess it all depends who you work for and the job you do!

Just one humble opinion...:)We're all Egineers in Training.

I consider myself to be an engineer, with interests in quality, technology and science.

B.S. Metallurgy, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
M.S. Metallurgy, Case Western Reserve University
M.B.A. Business, University of Kentucky
ASQ Certifications:
CQE, CQA, CQM, CQT, CQIA, CMI, CSQE, CRE, CSSBB, CCT, CQPA, CSSGB
28 years in quality, with about 22 years as a quality manager spread over three different companies, including manufacturing coal mining tools, manufacturing MRI scanners, and a metals testing laboratory.

I currently write and edit materials to help people prepare for ASQ Certification exams. I am quite active in local groups of ASQ, SME and ASM, and am also a member of SAE, SCTE and IQF.

Wes R.

Wes, what do you do with your spare time?:)

Hi Ralph,

I go on the ASQ Discussion Board and Elsmar Cove!

For ASQ 0919 Wabash Valley, I am newsletter editor, auditing chair, database chair and on the executive committee. For SME 275 Wabash Valley I am treasurer, newsletter editor and webmaster. For ASM Wabash Valley, I am secretary, newsletter editor and webmaster. The easy part is all three of these groups typically have joint meetings so much of the newsletter and web information is the same.

My wife does ask me to help around the house or yard from time to time.

Wes R.

Hi Ralph,

I go on the ASQ Discussion Board and Elsmar Cove!

For ASQ 0919 Wabash Valley, I am newsletter editor, auditing chair, database chair and on the executive committee. For SME 275 Wabash Valley I am treasurer, newsletter editor and webmaster. For ASM Wabash Valley, I am secretary, newsletter editor and webmaster. Wes R.

But other than that, you don't do much of anything, do you? :D

Hi Jim,

I know you guys are poking fun at me, and I am trying to poke back, to have some fun as well.

I have a web site at http://mysite.verizon.net/res7bc4p/ It currently has pictures from our trip to Florida in the middle of May, 2006.

I also have a site for our daughter at http://www.yourluckyfind.com/

I very much enjoy puzzles and have a large collection of items like Rubik cubes. I have the 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 and 5x5 along with 3x3 picture and several other variants. One really good site is Jaap's Puzzle page http://www.geocities.com/jaapsch/puzzles/

He has a very large collection of puzzles, pictures of them, and solutions.

Wes R.

Hi Ralph,

I go on the ASQ Discussion Board and Elsmar Cove!

For ASQ 0919 Wabash Valley, I am newsletter editor, auditing chair, database chair and on the executive committee. For SME 275 Wabash Valley I am treasurer, newsletter editor and webmaster. For ASM Wabash Valley, I am secretary, newsletter editor and webmaster. The easy part is all three of these groups typically have joint meetings so much of the newsletter and web information is the same.

My wife does ask me to help around the house or yard from time to time.

Wes R.


Wes,
I used to belong to the Marion/Muncie section in the mid 70's when I was QM at the now closed General Tire Reinforced Plastic Division plant.
Used to go to a unique resturant in Wabash. It had 3 sections for your selection. On the street level at the front was a piano lounge. Then at the rear of this area was a formal dining room. Upstairs was a western bar with saddles as the bar stools, and margaritias were served out of a freezer dispenser like used at Dairy Queen. During Happy Hour they were 2 for a dollar. I used to take customer reps there for dinner and entertainment. One night the rep from Mack Truck and I had a few margaritias, and he almost fell out of the saddle.:rolleyes:
Gald to see you have time for "Honey Do's":)

Hi Ralph,

That sounds like an interesting place. Wabash, IN is north of Indianapolis. The Wabash Valley ASQ Section is centered in Terre Haute, Indiana, about 70 miles west of Indianapolis.

Wes R.

Howdy everyone,

Just out of curiosity (and boredom) I thought I would do a poll to see how many people have engineering degrees and how many people have nothing. Feel free to post any thoughts you may have also.


BA in Business Administration

Coury Ferguson

Hi Ralph,

That sounds like an interesting place. Wabash, IN is north of Indianapolis. The Wabash Valley ASQ Section is centered in Terre Haute, Indiana, about 70 miles west of Indianapolis.

Wes R.

Wes, I didn't realize the Wabash ASQ section was that far away. I heard that the owner of that resturant was killed in an auto accident and the resturant closed shortly thereafter.

Wabash Valley refers to the area around the Wabash River, which runs by both Wabash, IN and Terre Haute. We traced where the river starts, and it is in Ohio, southeast of Lima. It ends by going into the Ohio river at the southern border of Illinois and Indiana.

Wes R.

MS in Chemsitry, now the MR for a tape company.

Actually, the Wabash River starts in Cranberry Prairie in Merce County, OH (West Central, near the Town of St. Henry) then winds it's way up to Ft. Wayne, IN.

Actually, the Wabash River starts in Cranberry Prairie in Merce County, OH (West Central, near the Town of St. Henry) then winds it's way up to Ft. Wayne, IN.

Hi Shaggy1812,

The map I have shows the Wabash River starting at latitude N40 deg 21.0160' longitude W84 deg 45.3034'.

That is in Fort Recovery, OH, South of the Dark Mercer Co Line Road, East of route 49, and North of Denise Road. That puts it on a bearing of about 232.8 deg True, a distance of about 7.57 mi, from St. Henry, OH, but who is counting.

Thanks for the update.

Wes R.

:applause:

Not BSEE, BSME or anything that says Engineering. However, have over 25 years of mechanical experience in aviation, rail and industrial combined in the QA sector. Have a BS and MA in Management. I'm working in getting my BSME during my off time. Learning is a never ending process and don't let your age hold you back...;)

:applause:

Not BSEE, BSME or anything that says Engineering. However, have over 25 years of mechanical experience in aviation, rail and industrial combined in the QA sector. Have a BS and MA in Management. I'm working in getting my BSME during my off time. Learning is a never ending process and don't let your age hold you back...;)

Welcome to the Cove, sminiz :bigwave:

I just happened to watch a excellent documentary about Leonard Cohen (http://www.leonardcohenimyourman.com/) over the weekend, and I was reintroduced to the great chorus of his song Anthem, which seems oddly apropos:
Ring the bells you still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There's a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

hehe...

Well, Quality Engineer (Title) and I am a high school drop out (with GED)
13+ years OJT... It has worked completely in my favor! Although, I still want the paper!

:cool:

I have 3 sheepskins in Electrical and Industrial Engineering. I recently returned to the Quality field and received my CQE in June. Now I think I'll start collecting certifications. It's a great way to renew your understanding of Quality processes.:o

The reason that you should have an engineering degree is that you will be required to pass the following test upon graduation. If you cannot pass the test you will probably do poorly in the quality field.

Engineering Graduation Test

Instructions: Read each question carefully. Answer all questions. Time limit: 4 hours. Begin immediately.

HISTORY: Describe the history of the papacy from its origin to the present day, concentrating especially, but not exclusively, on its social, economic, religious, and philosophical impact on Europe, Asia, America and Africa. Be brief, concise, and specific.

MEDICINE: You have been provided with a razor blade, a piece of gauze, and a bottle of Scotch. Remove your appendix. Do not suture until your work has been inspected. You have fifteen minutes.

PUBLIC SPEAKING: 2500 riot-crazed people are storming the classroom. Calm them. You may use any language except Latin or Greek.

BIOLOGY: Create life. Estimate the differences in subsequent human culture if this form of life had developed 500 million years earlier, with special attention to its probable effect on the English parliamentary system. Prove your thesis.

MUSIC: Write a piano concerto. Orchestrate and perform it with flute and drum. You will find a piano under your seat.

PSYCHOLOGY: Based on your knowledge of their works, evaluate the emotional stability, degree of adjustment, and repressed frustration of each of the following: Alexander of Aphrodisias, Ramses II, Gregory of Nicea, and Hammurabi. Support your evaluation with quotations from each man's work, making appropriate references. It is not necessary to translate.

SOCIOLOGY: Estimate the sociological problems with might accompany the end of the world. Construct an experiment to test your theory.

ENGINEERING: The disassembled parts of a high-powered rifle have been placed in a box on your desk. You will also find an instruction manual printed in Swahili. In ten minutes a hungry Bengal tiger will be admitted to your room. Take whatever action you find appropriate. Be prepared to justify your decision.

ECONOMICS: Develop a realistic plan for refinancing the national debt. Trace the possible effects of your plan in the following areas: cubism, the Donatist controversy, the wave theory of light. Outline a method for preventing these effects. Criticize this method from all possible points of view, as demonstrated in your answer to the last question.

POLITICAL SCIENCE: There is a red telephone on the desk beside you. Start World War III. Report at length on it socio-political effects, if any.

EPISTEMOLOGY: Take a position for or against truth. Prove the validity of your position.

PHYSICS: Explain the nature of matter. Include in your answer an evaluation of the impact of the development of mathematics on science.

PHILOSOPHY: Sketch the development of human thought. Estimate the significance. Compare with the development of any other kind of thought.

Good luck

Bill Pflanz

ENGINEERING: The disassembled parts of a high-powered rifle have been placed in a box on your desk. You will also find an instruction manual printed in Swahili. In ten minutes a hungry Bengal tiger will be admitted to your room. Take whatever action you find appropriate. Be prepared to justify your decision.


Answer - Take parts, leave room, spend the 4 hours playing with my new toy. Expect 'A' :cool:

BS, Manufacturing and Supply Chain Management :whip:

Hoho, I have engineering degree, but I had always put Degree: B.S. in my English resume!! interesting, I think I will change it from then on, haha. actually I totally didnt know how to translate it!!!!thank you very much.:biglaugh:

I have an associates of arts degree. Have been doing quality since 1991, and an automotive quality engineer since 1997.

[QUOTE=Lucinda;42143]No engineering degree. Mine is in Biology, with excessive loads of chemistry and thankfully only two semesters of Physics.

So my resumes are tossed into the trash heap around here. What is it that makes companies confuse "quality" with "engineering" anyway??? What the heck difference does it make if I don't have 10 years experience with plastic extrusion or 10 years experience with pipeline field design, etc? Isn't the role of a quality professional to use the field knowledge of others to drive improvements?? Why in the world does everyone around here (my hometown, not the Cove) think that you have to have worked your way up from the factory floor? "

I am a degreed mechanical engineer but I have strong opinions on this subject. I think the demand for college degrees is way out of hand and has dumbed down what is required and the quality of the education received.
Most of the people who came up with the design concepts we consider engineering classics in aircraft and automotive design were not engineers.
I will take a bright motivated analyst and problem solver capable of critical thought over a degree and no means of applying what they learn.
I can't understand why we demand QA Managers, Senior Technicians and process "engineers" to have a degree of some sort? Don't even get me going on requiring an MBA for VP and Director positions.
I am convinced that this has resulted in a boatload of impractical, unserviceable designs for engines, appliances that have consumers and field technicians just shaking their heads and fists in frustration!

Ooh this does touch a nerve with me!
Mary

I hear ya, Mary!

I've just been through this with my company, where anyone with "engineer" in their title must be a degreed engineer. Luckily this was not in place when I hired my best employee, a QE with an Associates degree.

I am not dumping on degrees, because I do think they're important, but I am dumping on stupid rules. In quality it's more about your outlook and approach than it is about a degree. People who are problem solvers and process oriented naturally gravitate towards this field. That is a personality style, not a degree.

BS in Chemical Engineering and minor in material science. I fell into Quality and a friend of mine said "you'll never get out" - I think she might have been right!

Wes,
I used to belong to the Marion/Muncie section in the mid 70's when I was QM at the now closed General Tire Reinforced Plastic Division plant.
Used to go to a unique resturant in Wabash. It had 3 sections for your selection. On the street level at the front was a piano lounge. Then at the rear of this area was a formal dining room. Upstairs was a western bar with saddles as the bar stools, and margaritias were served out of a freezer dispenser like used at Dairy Queen. During Happy Hour they were 2 for a dollar. I used to take customer reps there for dinner and entertainment. One night the rep from Mack Truck and I had a few margaritias, and he almost fell out of the saddle.:rolleyes:
Gald to see you have time for "Honey Do's":)

Wow did this bring back memories!
My sister, a former Wabash resident ,was the original manager of the place you are talking about when it opened. The guy that opened it was a real character who was the very definition of being a self taught success without a degree.
In the 70s he foresaw two trends:
1. Retail relationships directly with companies like Sears and KMart. He delivered his merchandise tagged and ready to rack for each retailer before anyone else was doing it.
2. Sports licensing before anyone really did it.
He bought (I think it was) NCAA logo rights for a song and started a T-shirt and sportswear business that made millions.
It all ended when he died in a sudden accident and no one in his company had his vision and leadership to carry it on.
I remember sitting on one of those saddles and watching a very young Loretta Lynn singing in that club.
Off topic but still a pleasant memory!
Happy Holidays,
Mary

Wabash was also home to Crystal Gail. I did not see her, but saw pictures of her in the paper in a parade there

smth between BSc and MSc (5 years of studies!: (
in Production Automation and Control Systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_State_Oil_Academy

MA in Quality Assurance and Reliability
http://www.technion.ac.il/technion/qar/

Degree: bachelor of mechanical enginerring
Minor: computer science
Graduate work:Product engineer

I put "Vocational (or similar)" because thats what I belive in the US what I'm going for in college here in Canada is considered. Mind you don't got the paper yet at the end of April I will. :)

Tool and Die in College is a Dipolma so thats Vocational I think. :confused:

Dimitri

Associate Degree: Medical Assistant
BS: Molecular Biology
Some Graduate work in Oncology

Left the Acedemic/Research world to be a full time mother

Walked into a local printing business looking for something to fill my days after the kids got older and ended up in Quality Systems Management.

Life can takes some strange turns.

[QUOTE=Lucinda;42143]
I can't understand why we demand QA Managers, Senior Technicians and process "engineers" to have a degree of some sort? Don't even get me going on requiring an MBA for VP and Director positions.
I am convinced that this has resulted in a boatload of impractical, unserviceable designs for engines, appliances that have consumers and field technicians just shaking their heads and fists in frustration!

Ooh this does touch a nerve with me!
Mary

Having a qualification such as a certificate or degree does put you in a different society of people. First of all recognition, if nothing else. That's why I find it valuable and practical to have the qualifications required for that position. Keep in mind that going to school and obtaining recognition is part of your resume history. It is the side of work that brings to the industry the way which things should be done and thinking advancement. This is not to say that a schooled person is smarter than the average Joe, but that if average Joe would have gone to school to advance, it would have made him/her more knowledgeable of what is available.

In short, an MBA for a VP or Director job qualification, would be right (in my opinion) to put forward on a job posting.

I kind of backed into Quality Management. After High School I became a draftsman. We all know what happened to them! In the early 80's I started programming CNC machines. I really enjoyed that until 1996 or 1997 (I forget which) when my boss drafted me to take over the Quality Department. I never did get a degree and it has hurt me professionally. When quality managers find out that I don't have an engineering degree they seem to treat me differently.

Doug

This matter is very interesting and actual for the Portuguese politics!
In fact we are having a front page newspaper national discussion about our prime minister being an Engineer or not.
He has a bachelor Engineer degree given by a public institute in Lisbon (3 years of school). Here this is not sufficient to have the professional title of engineer. So he went to a private University to study for more two years. He finished these two years and he called himself Engineer.
The problem is that the “Engineer’s Association” doesn’t recognize that University’s degree and so the man can’t be called Engineer.
As Portugal is a place were academic titles are very important for everybody, this problem with the prime minister is being considered a national issue...
:notme:

So here, if you want to be an Engineer, you must have at least 5 years of a recognized University.
Is this the same everywhere?

Back in the middle 60's, my home state of Illinois only required a 4 year degree in ANY field from a recognized college or university PLUS a passing grade on a state-administered examination. I took the exam and got my Professional Engineer license, good for everything from mechanical engineering to civil engineering (not electrical - different exam, same prerequisite to take the exam.)

Life is a lot different today:
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/068013800002500R.html

Initaly an apprentice in the Royal Navy then disabeled out after an accident with a fire supression system.

BEng Hons (Batcholer of Engineering) In Production Engineering
Several exams in Quality from the IQA including their Advanced Diploma

So here, if you want to be an Engineer, you must have at least 5 years of a recognized University.
Is this the same everywhere?

Brazil is the same way... being an ex-portuguese colony and all...

By the way.... as previous people have posted :

Post Grad : Quality and Productivity (Brazil)
Major : Business Administration (Rhode Island)
Minor : Computer Informations Systems (Rhode Island)

I am a Mechanical Engineer,retired from Indian Railways.

Currently working as Director (Technical & Export) in a filter manufacturing company. Q/A is also under my wings.

I qualified as a Combat Engineer specializing in Demolitions and Mine Warfare in the Marines. Does that count?

I learned through experience. I began when I was 17 as an inspector and am now the Director of Quality. From personal experience the knowlege that I posses is more than a degree could substantiate. Not to say that knowlege is not important but, to say a degree is just a paper. You can never be in control of your career until your hands are on the controls.

I qualified as a Combat Engineer specializing in Demolitions and Mine Warfare in the Marines. Does that count?

In my books it does as look at the name "Combat Engineer". Mind you, you probably blew up more things then you can shake a stick at. Whereas most Engineer's not trained by the military don't want to see what they are working with go "poof" as might be the case if you were told to blow up a bridge with those specializations. :biglaugh:

Still a Engineer just a different type of engineer. :agree1:

Dimitri

I qualified as a Combat Engineer specializing in Demolitions and Mine Warfare in the Marines. Does that count?

Former Marine myself I can attest to Yes Randy, it does count.:magic:

BS - Industrial Engineering Management
MBA - Masters Business with concentration in Human Resources

got involved with ISO standards in College when they were new - never left the quality department!

BSc Microbiology & MBA

Nothing as glamorous as blowing stuff up!:D

What is a degree? What is education anyway?

Is it not a measure of how much you can remember on a given day? Biased by perhaps a set timeframe in which to relay such information? :whip:

Hmmmm?

Nope, not for me (though I got a 2:1 in Business Management) :bonk:

Bachelor of Science Mechanical Engineering.

BSEng - Mechanical from Univ. of Tennessee @ Chattanooga
MBA - Univ. of Michigan

Having read a sample of the replies and having over 20 years of automotive experience, here's my 2 cents:

I believe the engineering degree gave me a disciplined approach to working through problems. I have met many brilliant and talented non-engineers and also many completely stupid well-degreed engineers.

The degree helps, but working hard and learning on the job will always be necessary.:magic:

Bachelor of Science in Microbiology
Diploma in Business Management

Couple of other diploma like Pathology, Total Quality Management

I have an associates in Nondestructive Testing, and landed a job as a QA Tech at an auto supplier. The plan was to work until my then boyfriend (we're married now) finished school, and then move to wherever there was a decent job. Nine years and several titles later, I'm still here and still learning the hard way.

I've seen Graduate "Engineers" who are still wet behind the ears come and go over the years and they normally run away screaming that they "just can't take it anymore" after about six months. Sorry folks but I did it the hard way. Long live apprenticeships I say.


Geoff has it right for sure. I have 40 years experience..more experience than most "engineers" are old.. you got your book learning and you got your hard knocks learning.. When was the last time you used a fast fourier analysis to test your quality program, or even calculus, not to mention Art101

and no, no degree; but over 180 Semester Units. I just didn't like the choices, so I made my own.

Amen to that! I have a bunch of credit hours, no degree as of yet. Currently working toward a BS in Management (Aren't BS and Management closely related?? :yes: ) in my spare time.

Quick input of my $0.02, I recently worked with a PhD EE...who came to me and my associates (none of which had HIGHER than an associates) for the basics...makes you feel good, but gets irritating when you think of the pay scale delta!

:mad:

B.S. Sport Management
Minor: Business Administration, Communications

M.S. Safety and Environmental Management

Life leads you down some strange and unique paths to get you to where you are.

I am a Master's Degree Holder in Mechanical Engineering. It helps me a lot to interpret improvement opportunities in the field of my occupation (Oil and Gas).

BSME a long time ago, plus one masters and most of a second.

I started with my current employer as Chief Engineer about 13.5 years ago. Before the Quality/Regulatory job was split and I became Regulatory Manager, I had a vague Senior R&D title, solving problems and creating product concepts, plus providing tech support for OEM sales. Now my business card says Regulatory Manager / Research & Development.

Metallurgy - Foundry

Master degree in Statistics with Specialization in Quality assurance.

No engineering degree for me. I graduated from the Royal School of Military Engineering as a Materials Technician and a Combat Engineer. On leaving the British Army (Royal Engineers) I worked as materials engineer on civil engineering projects in some interesting parts of the world. I have a lot of respect for engineers and would have liked to become a chartered civil engineer.

Four years tax-free in Saudi Arabia working for Bechtel I saved enough to take a two-year sabbatical to earn a Masters degree (Materials Protection and Construction Management).

From years of dealing with defective product I learned about management systems and process management to identify the root causes arising long before sorting the good from the bad product by inspection and testing. My love of management systems and process management took me into some post-post-grad research from which I developed and published in 1985 the people>processes>system approach to developing process-based management systems.

My BS 5750 lead auditor training pulled it all together for me in 1986. I am now a newly minted chartered quality professional but sometimes regret not working to become a chartered systems engineer.:read:

Mechanical Engineer :notme:

Have a great day!
:D

Just read the article linked here in "Design News" magazine. If this is the case, I guess there are a LOT of US who have to answer this thread as "NO"!

http://www.designnews.com/article/48016-Are_You_An_Engineer_If_You_Don_t_Pass_The_P_E_.php?text=professional+engineer

...only in "Litigation Happy" America! :frust: