Dear Cove friends,
I have confused within the company about controlling and distributing QMS controlled document. We control document by Intranet. All items with current version can be accessed any time by anybody (read only).
There are about 40 functions (sections) in our organizations that are required to use document differently. In normal practice, each of those print out concerned document and keep as master file in each area. That means we are talking about 40 binders at least.

1. However, do we have to print out or make copy to keep in our office or post at shop floor? ( I think we waste a lot of paper)
2. Do all document must be kept in the master file of each section?
3. Can we just only make the list for only document we concerned, then when need we can check from the Intranet or print out to use?
4. If we can do according to question no.3, how to satisfy QS-9000 req. 4.5.2 a “the pertinent issues of appropriate documents are available at all location where operations essential to the effective functioning of the quality system are performed?

Need your suggestion.

Regards,
QSMSO

Hi there,

1. No. Don't. At least not as long as those who need the documents can access them from the intranet. Are the printed documents controlled? Probably not..?

2. No. Why not consider the intranet to be the master list? In effect it is. A different master list in every section is trouble.

3. Yes (If I understood the question right). Just make certan that you don't save any printed documents after use.

4. I'll leave that one to the QS-9000 experts, but if you have intranet access close to those locations, you shouldn't have any problems.

/Claes

Here is what I have done in an ISO 9001:2000 implementation in a small electronic calibration lab. We wanted to take maximum advantage of the internal computer network, and minimize the workload of the document coordinator (me). Referring to the original questions --

1. However, do we have to print out or make copy to keep in our office or post at shop floor?
If the documents are on the company intranet, and if everyone has access to them, then the answer is probably No.

2. Do all document must be kept in the master file of each section?
The directory (web page) that people use to get to them on the intranet is the master file. Having separate files in different sections is just making trouble for yourself.
Axiom: no matter how much you try to prevent it the lists will become unsynchronized.
Corollary: the auditor will find it.

3. Can we just only make the list for only document we concerned, then when need we can check from the Intranet or print out to use?
We do allow people to print documents as needed. It is necessary in some cases, such as calibration checklists. But every level 2 and 3 quality procedure, and the quality manual, has a note in the footer of every page stating that if it is printed, it is not a controlled document. The only controlled copy is the one they can see on the computer screen. Paper copies are supposed to be disposed of after use. (Unless it is a form which becomes a record, then it is scanned back in before it is disposed of.)

4. If we can do according to question no.3, how to satisfy QS-9000 req. 4.5.2 a “the pertinent issues of appropriate documents are available at all location where operations essential to the effective functioning of the quality system are performed?
Again, if the documents are available on the intranet the only issue is having them available at the point of use. If everyone has access to the intranet in their work area, it should not be a problem. In our calibration lab, each technician has a laptop computer, and each calibration workstation has a network connection, so it is not an issue for us. It may be different in your situation.


Other points:

The only copy accessible to the users is the current one. If they have a need to see an old version they have to ask the document coordinator. In addition, the current version cannot be changed because (a) most users only have read access to that directory, and (b) all of the documents are digitally signed Adobe Acrobat PDF files.

The document access system is a series of html web pages that links everything together. I am also starting to put hyperlinks inside documents for additional linking.

This system also makes it easy for the auditor. We just give him or her a laptop and the account name and password we have set up for auditors, and let them roam. (The auditor account has rights to see everything but not modify anything.)

Document changes are handled by e-mail -- requests, approvals, and change notices. That provides an electronic trail that can be stored as needed. The change is official when a new copy of the file is placed in the folder on the server.

(A side benefit is that the lab stays cleaner longer now that there is less paper in it.)

Document changes are handled by e-mail -- requests, approvals, and change notices. That provides an electronic trail that can be stored as needed. The change is official when a new copy of the file is placed in the folder on the server.


Your program sounds GREAT!!!!
The PDF is something I'd like our company to use soon.
How do you electronically approve your documents?
We currently have one electronic master, with a few paper binders.
But our conversion to and "offical" online version is so new we have not worked out a system for approving them yet.

Any tips?

Bob_M said:

Your program sounds GREAT!!!!
The PDF is something I'd like our company to use soon.
How do you electronically approve your documents?
We currently have one electronic master, with a few paper binders.
But our conversion to and "offical" online version is so new we have not worked out a system for approving them yet.

Any tips?

Original hard copies are signed and dated and kept in a Master File in the QA Office. The pdf files show the personnel "Author" and "Authorizer" and the date. Where the signature would normally be, I just have this: (Signed). Our Document Control Procedure states this and I see nothing wrong with it. Also, there are "Uncontrolled" stamps near three printers and the procedure states that printed documents are no longer controlled. A throw back to to the 94 version of ISO, but so what? We have not been audited yet by a Registrar, however I don't anticipate a problem. The important thing is to make sure the procedure addresses everything you do. JMHO

:ko: :smokin:

Bob,

FWIW, I think either Jim's way or Energy's way will pass most audits. I use Energy's way despite it being a bit more work because I think it is a bit more "airtight" -- the handwritten signature on a hardcopy shows more positively that the doc actually WAS approved by that person. This seems to make auditors feel warmer and fuzzier and eliminates any chance of the approving person later saying "I never saw/approved that document" and having anyone take him/her seriously. But if you do not have those concerns and prefer the greatest ease, Jim's way should work. If it doesn't, you can always change.

Jim Wade said:

What some people do, Bob is to have a procedure for approval that results - for a successful review - in the master document simply being moved to a folder with appropriate protections

That way they can say "we know it's approved because it's in that folder". The document (uniquely identified by, for example, a title and a date) needs no e-signature or any other sign of approval.

rgds Jim

We say, basically, if it's on the "secured drive", it's the latest rev. The "master List" is there also, which contains the hyperlinked documents. This is no fun. Let's rumble!! :p :ko: :smokin:

Mike S. said:

Bob,

FWIW, I think either Jim's way or Energy's way will pass most audits. I use Energy's way despite it being a bit more work because I think it is a bit more "airtight" -- the handwritten signature on a hardcopy shows more positively that the doc actually WAS approved by that person. This seems to make auditors feel warmer and fuzzier and eliminates any chance of the approving person later saying "I never saw/approved that document" and having anyone take him/her seriously. But if you do not have those concerns and prefer the greatest ease, Jim's way should work. If it doesn't, you can always change.

Mike S.

We also have a concern here about electronic approval signatures on blueprints by Engineering. It's not allowed because they do not have that "warm and fuzzy feeling". Some things are best left alone if we feel "cold and bald".
:rolleyes: :ko: :smokin:

I know what hyperlinks are, but I'm not sure how to use them effectively. I might want to in the future. I use MS WORD for my docs. Maybe someone can enlighten me. Consider this scenerio:

I have a doc called "QSP-530 Rev. A - Testing Whozits". In this doc is a reference to "QSP-515 Rev. B - Hardness Testing", which is a part of how whozits are tested.

If I revise QSP-515 to Rev. C, don't I have to go back to QSP-530 (and any other docs that reference QSP-515) and change the hyperlink in QSP-530 so that the new rev of QSP-515 is called by the hyperlink?

I figure there is probably a way around this, but I've never sat down to figure it all out. Any ideas from the hyperlink experts?

Mike S. said:

I know what hyperlinks are, but I'm not sure how to use them effectively. I might want to in the future. I use MS WORD for my docs. Maybe someone can enlighten me. Consider this scenerio:

I have a doc called "QSP-530 Rev. A - Testing Whozits". In this doc is a reference to "QSP-515 Rev. B - Hardness Testing", which is a part of how whozits are tested.

If I revise QSP-515 to Rev. C, don't I have to go back to QSP-530 (and any other docs that reference QSP-515) and change the hyperlink in QSP-530 so that the new rev of QSP-515 is called by the hyperlink?

I figure there is probably a way around this, but I've never sat down to figure it all out. Any ideas from the hyperlink experts?

As long as you always name the "current" doc the same file name, you don't have to worry about the hyperlinks. So, if you are saving obsolete copies somewhere, rename them. Current document is H:\QMSWeb\QSP515.doc, but maybe the old one(s) is H:\QMSWeb\QSP515B.doc and QSP515A.doc

Actually, I don't even save old versions, unless there is some really good reason to. I have the changes summarized in the revision database. If I do save an older version, I keep it in an entirely different drive or a different folder on the same drive, one that is not accessible by anyone other than a couple of people with administrative rights.

Hope this helps!

Mike s.,

Steel has it right. When you browse for the file in word that you want to include in your "support" file, you select the latest revision. Dump the old ones and track revisions in the revision section, usually within the document itself. I believe it was Laura M. that introduced me to the method. I love it. We won't get into the security aspects, because you need a secure drive with read only access and hope you don't have criminals in your company who want to create havoc. Smart ones. That is if you can't make pdf files. If you want an example, I'll send it to you regular e-mail, like Laura did for me. But, you have to supply me with your e-mail, Lean!:biglaugh: :ko: :smokin:

More food for thought.

If we use hyperlinks do we need to continue using document references at all ?

In Word text you can hyperlink off of any piece of text. So your text might read 'and if a non-conformance is found you follow the Control of Non-Conformance Procedure' and just hyperlink off this text.

aint technology a wonderful thing !

Thanks muchly, Steel and Energy. As soon as I saw your posts I experienced one of those "well, duh!" moments -- meaning I was being kinda dense (again). Sounds like a plan the next time I set-up a doc system or rejigger the current one. I'm a stickler for keeping old revisions of stuff for "knowledge preservation". In my biz, I or one of my co-workers find the need fairly often to go back and look at the old stuff. Heck, we even have a customer who orders to old as well as new rev's if you can believe that one! I'll just dump the old rev's. into an "archive" folder.

(BTW, Energy -- or should I say Jim: How did you figure me out?:biglaugh: :vfunny: :rolleyes: )

M Greenaway said:

More food for thought.

If we use hyperlinks do we need to continue using document references at all ?

In Word text you can hyperlink off of any piece of text. So your text might read 'and if a non-conformance is found you follow the Control of Non-Conformance Procedure' and just hyperlink off this text.

aint technology a wonderful thing !

M, I do that all the time. Anytime I refer to another controlled document, I link it then and there. One thing that I might mention...I don't do MSWord in web creation, but use an actual web publishing software. FrontPage, which now does belong to mickeysoft, but did not always.

This is a great time saver for me, because if there are any major re-writes, or a deletion of a document, I can (prior to deletion) check all of my hyperlinks, open each document that linked to the one to be deleted and make whatever revisions I need. Kills two birds with one stone.

I still put a complete list on each web page of all the referenced documents...just in case someone wants to quickly find some form that is filled out, or some other doc that they can't remember the name of.

Any other tricks of the (hyperlink) trade that anyone can suggest? Possible pitfalls? Helpful hints?

I think I'll do a small "dummy" (appropriate, huh?) document set w/ hyperlinks for practice before I do it for real just to make sure I've got my T's dotted and my I's crossed.

Mike S. said:

Any other tricks of the (hyperlink) trade that anyone can suggest? Possible pitfalls? Helpful hints?

I think I'll do a small "dummy" (appropriate, huh?) document set w/ hyperlinks for practice before I do it for real just to make sure I've got my T's dotted and my I's crossed.


Use relative links instead of absolute, just in case you ever have to move your web to another server.

Flat webs are easiest to maintain.

If you use color in your text, make sure not to use the colors you use for hypertext (either link or viewed link)

Remember, links usually default to look like underlined text, so be judicious (sp?) in your use of underlined text elsewhere to avoid confusion of users.

I think that these are probably the biggies, I am sure we could write a book if we put everyone's experience together.

Bob_M said:

Your program sounds GREAT!!!!
The PDF is something I'd like our company to use soon.
How do you electronically approve your documents?
We currently have one electronic master, with a few paper binders.
But our conversion to and "offical" online version is so new we have not worked out a system for approving them yet.

Any tips?

I think everyone else jumped in and said everything I would have. Thanks to Energy, SteelMaiden, Mike S, Jim Wade and M Greenaway in this thread -- and to all of the others we have "obtained" the ideas from before, epecially Laura M and E Wall. That said, here I go to expand at length on some of the high points.

Changes to existing documents are requested by e-mail. The need for new documents may be identified that way or by other methods as well.
The OLD version of the Microsoft Word source document is saved in a separate folder with a separate name -- "QP4230 document control.doc" might be saved as "QP4230 document control 20020514.doc" if the earlier version was dated May 14, 2002.
The process owner, document coordinator and other affected team members run everything through whatever is needed to produce a draft revision. (At this point it is still a Word document.)
If necessary, the draft is sent to everyone for review. It is sent by e-mail using Outlook's voting and tracking feature. Everyone votes yes/no on approval, can edit it, and you can tell who has not even read it yet and ping on them.
When ready for final approval it is sent to whoever does that, again by e-mail. Outlook again is used to record the votes.
When the document is approved, several things happen. (1) The document coordinator converts the Word document to an Adobe Acrobat PDF file. (2) The file is digitally signed (an internal feature of Acrobat 4.0 and later) and appropriate security levels are set. (3) The document coordinator copies the new PDF file to the document folder on the server. Since it has the same name as the old one, it instantly replaces it and no hyperlinks have to be changed. (4) An e-mail is sent to all users telling them of the change. A read reciept enables Outlook to track who has read it.
The e-mail messages are moved to a public folder in Outlook, so they can be viewed by any user. That provides the paper trail. After a defined period they are archived.
We do not use revision numbers or letters. The date the file is saved is in the footer of page 1. As long as the document is a Word document, that date is kept updated by the system (it is a built-in field that you can insert.) When it is printed to a PDF file the save date is frozen and is treated as the revision date and version.


Hyperlinks can be placed in either the original Word document or the PDF file. I find putting them in the Word file easier. Basically, any time there is a reference to another document or form I try to make it a hyperlink. This also works for links inside files, and if you make a Table of Contents using the Word field then Acrobat will automatically link that for you. I have also found that, if you want to link to a file that doesn't exist yet, the easiest thing to do is put a dummy file with that name in the folder. When the "real" one is created, it will automatically replace the dummy.

Digital signature - this is NOT an image of your pen-on-paper signature. A digital signature is based on something called public-key encryption. (A web search on that term will give you more than you ever wanted to know!) When you digitally "sign" a document, your private key is used to make a short encrypted "digest" that is attached to the file. Other people can verify who signed it and when, and verify that the document has not been changed since then. (Secured PDF files are hard to tamper with anyway, but this also makes any tampering attempt easily detectable.) The system uses your "public" key to do that. But nobody (with the possible exception of NSA?) can use that to discover your private key. Signatures can be added on top of each other if needed, in case the number of signatures must equal the number of pages before the document can be released. :vfunny: Also, assuming you practice good password control, nobody can forge your digital signature. The only way it can get onto a document is if you put it there. ("Good password control" means at least never ever give your password to anyone for any reason, no matter how trusted they are.)

Other administrivia: the PDF file on the server IS the controlled copy. The web page that serves as the index IS the master list. The footer of each document page has wording to the effect that if it is on paper, or if it is not on the designated file server, it is not controlled. While everyone can read documents on the server, very few have the rights to add, remove or modify them.

By the way, all of this asumes that everyone in the company has access to the computer system ...

____________
Graeme

Graeme said:

I think everyone else jumped in and said everything I would have. Thanks to Energy, SteelMaiden, Mike S, Jim Wade and M Greenaway in this thread -- and to all of the others we have "obtained" the ideas from before, epecially Laura M and E Wall. Graeme

Graeme,

Correct me if I'm mistaken. Was it you that said word was too "unstable" for hyperlinking from document to document? I wanted to password protect, say my procedure and hyperlink to documents/forms contained in it. When I tried to password protect in "form", Word would not allow me to protect it adequately. I guess I could could go back, way back and check. I remember that you can protect in "form" making it unalterable, only once. We won't get into the safecracker who broke my secured document into little pieces and returned it to me edited. That's why we went pdf documents, but hyperlinking is the way, even in Adobe. Clean and neat.
Martin, why not? The link shows up when you move the cursor over text. Maybe, too much of a guessing game for the ones who want easy?
:ko: :smokin:

SteelMaiden said:

Flat webs are easiest to maintain.


Steel,

Can you please explain what a "flat web" is and contrast it with the alternative (a bumpy web?:rolleyes: ). Thanks!!!

If you use a web publishing software, (and maybe using word, I am not that familiar with creating webs entirely from Word) you can just save all your documents in the web, sort of like saving all of your files in a my documents folder, no matter what they were created with. That is a flat web, no hierarchy. On the other hand, you could save the html files in a nested, or tree type hierarchy, similar to saving your typical MS Office documents in seperate folders (maybe by type, or subject) inside another "parent" folder on some certain drive.

The less you need to jump from level to level, folder to folder, however it is easiest to envision, the fewer chances you have for broken links to occur.

There are some things you can do with nested, or hierarchy based webs that you can't with flat webs. You can add bots to all pages in one level but not the rest in a hierarchy based web, in a flat web, you either add a bot to all the pages in the web, or you have to add it individually to whichever pages you want it on.

Just in case someone wonders what a bot is....I know when I started designing webs, I did not, it is an html page that you can insert into other html pages. I typically use a bot to add navigation tools to each html page. It seems like for Q-stuff, your navigation requirements are much more complex and/or lengthy than what the navigation banner templates you can insert handle well. A template of navigation buttons typically only fits 3-5 buttons nicely on the screen, but I usually end up with 8-10 navigation buttons by the time I add links to environmental, safety, the intranet home page, quality home page + policy, procedure, WI, forms, reference doc indices, etc.

The nice thing about html and placing documents in a web is that I can create a search page using the template and any employee, or auditor, can type in a search phrase or word, and get a list of all the documents that contain it. You can't get that with .pdf files (at least as far as I know, I may be wrong). I know my web is secure, because the only way you can edit it is to have both a copy of the software and the proper admin priveleges, whereas 450 people have access to MSWord here and several are very good at computer stuff!

Hope I answered your questions, I know just enough to be dangerous, but not enough to make sense half the time!:biglaugh:

SteelMaiden said:

I know just enough to be dangerous...,

I don't know about that. You sound pretty well versed in this stuff to me. Thanks!

energy said:
Correct me if I'm mistaken. Was it you that said word was too "unstable" for hyperlinking from document to document? I wanted to password protect, say my procedure and hyperlink to documents/forms contained in it. When I tried to password protect in "form", Word would not allow me to protect it adequately.

Energy,
I dimly remeber a discussion of those issues (some seldom-used synapses are suddenly firing!) -- that was sometime around the middle of last year, I think. June and July, according to Marc's most excellent search engine. Without taking the time to search for our offline e-mails, I will take a stab at not digging myself in deeper. I think there were two issues involved - using hyperlinks and using Word's "forms" to make a protected document. This discussion is about the links, so I'll stick with that.

I have had problems in the past using hyperlinks with older versions of Word. At that time I was using the corporate standard of Microsoft Office 95 :o with Microsoft's add-on HTML Helper sort of snuck in when nobody from IT was looking. That did have stability problems. Later on in the year, our lab installed Office 97 on our separate "stealth" LAN that IT did not know about. That and later versions of Word have "Save as HTML ..." as a built-in command. That works better for me, once I ironed out a few quirks. I learned that:
Links work best (for me, anyway) when I use a "fully qualified path name" to identify the target file. This is because I do writing on my workstation but the final files will be on a server. If I try to use "relative" addressing the system assumes that the target file is on my local drive. So I make sure that the link points to something that looks like "\\stealthserver\webroot\pdf\Quality-Manual.pdf".
Things also go better with a dummy. A dummy file, that is. If I am going to link to a file that has not been created yet, I have found that I need to have something in the directory for Word to find. For example - I was recently writing a new QP on handling proficiency test artifacts and needed refer to (and link to) a form that I had not created yet. I whipped up a quick one-line-of-text document, made it into a PDF file with the name I was doing to use, and stuck it on the server. Word seems to be happier when it can actually reach out and touch the file. When I eventually created the form (and everything was approved), copying the real thing to the server automatically replaced the dummy PDF file.

Earlier in this thread I think I said
Hyperlinks can be placed in either the original Word document or the PDF file. I find putting them in the Word file easier.
That is, it is "easier" for me and the way I work. There may be "better" ways. I have had trouble in adding links after the fact to a PDF file - they often end up appearing as if they were a clumsy afterthought. Also, if the links are in the Word document then reviewers can check them out.

__________________
Graeme

SteelMaiden said:
If you use a web publishing software, ...

Ah, yes ... I actually do have FrontPage (and a lot of other tools) at home - a better system overall than at the office, in fact. And a better budget. Operating on a "stealth" basis to hide from the corporate IT control freaks limits what we can spend money on. Also, when our network guru (not me!) set up the servers, he elected to simplify his life by not installing the Internet Information Services.

My understanding is that IIS (or some other compatible web server) is needed for some of the bots and other features of FrontPage.

I have a hierarchical (?) folder tree to organize stuff, and the top level is just a collection of HTML pages. Everyone's Internet Explorer is set to the lab homepage as the starting point. It's not as flashy as more advanced ways of doing it, but it works. (And frankly, a few of the guys are intimidated by the keyboard - and then they have to turn the thing on!)

Also I wanted to stay close to the bland look & feel of the rest of the corporate web pages, for when our little secret is discovered and forced onto the main system.

Graeme

Graeme said:

---X---
I have had problems in the past using hyperlinks with older versions of Word. At that time I was using the corporate standard of Microsoft Office 95 :o with Microsoft's add-on HTML Helper sort of snuck in when nobody from IT was looking. That did have stability problems.

---X---

Tell me about it Graeme... I walked into that trap too, and it hurt. Using Word 95 for anything like that is a no-no, as far as I'm concerned. I'm currently using the Word 2000, and it works very well. (I bring it to it's knees now and then, but I'm notorious for pushing software beyond it's limits - I keep asking more and more of it, until it snaps :ko: )

/Claes

Graeme said:

Operating on a "stealth" basis to hide from the corporate IT control freaks limits what we can spend money on. Also, when our network guru (not me!) set up the servers, he elected to simplify his life by not installing the Internet Information Services.

Graeme

Yes you doo need all the internet services installed to use all the "good" stuff like searches etc.

A fix for your relative/absolute link problems???? Work on a working copy of your files, then publish the changed files to your viewing web. That is also a little safety net in case you do what I do occasionally....SNAFU or FUBAR control:biglaugh:

Nothing like a web, I have found that publishing documents with some sort of uncluttered, but lightly colored background makes it easier on the eyes, and people will spend more time reading documents than if you publish using a plain white "looks-like-a-piece-of-paper" format.

As for IT or whatever your company uses for the computer-folk. I guess I am really lucky, but before I transferred here, one of my stipulations was that I got full tech support from them for implementing an intranet. (I wasn't that lucky at my last div. I had to fight for everything I got in the line of computer/network support) I think when my top manager approved a requisition to place a LAN with or without their support, they got the picture:ko:

Good luck, may the force be with you!

SteelMaiden said:

The nice thing about html and placing documents in a web is that I can create a search page using the template and any employee, or auditor, can type in a search phrase or word, and get a list of all the documents that contain it. You can't get that with .pdf files (at least as far as I know, I may be wrong). [/QUOTE]Yes you doo need all the internet services installed to use all the "good" stuff like searches etc. [/QUOTE]

Steel,

Even if you're stuck without the fancy stuff you can always search for a phrase or word using the Windows "Find" search function and narrow your search parameters as appropriate (folder, file type, date, etc.). This function has saved me some very loooong manual searches more times than I can remember.

P.S. 'Find' does work with .pdf files.

Graeme said:

Energy,
I think there were two issues involved - using hyperlinks and using Word's "forms" to make a protected document. This discussion is about the links, so I'll stick with that.
________________
Graeme

The "forms" thing came up because I wanted to protect the document in forms, instead of "tracked changes". At the time I thought by protecting in "form", it would not able to be edited by unauthorized personnel. We now know that it can be edited with some hocus pocus. Carol X was the party pooper who busted my bubble after I issued a challenge to anyone who wanted to try to open my "secured" document. I think it took her 10 minutes and that included time to send it back to me with a wise crack. Smart *ss! :p Actually Smart Girl. We went to pdf files because of that.

Here's where the connection to "linking" came from.

I wanted to link to a procedure off of a master List. I also wanted to link to documents listed in the procedure, and again to documents contained in the referenced documents. I couldn't continually link by protecting the document in the "form" option. Tracked changes allowed linking back and forth. Of course, tracked changes would show you that somebody was messing with it when it was printed. They can't save because it's on a secured drive with read only access. Much ado about nothing, but I was younger then!:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

All,
My company is in the midst of going from controlled paper system to an electronic one. Our new system uses Microsoft SharePoint Portal Server. The software is the platform for our corporate intranet. The software has a hierarchical permissions system and can be searched easily and specifically. Lists of different types of controlled doc’s can be brought up very easily. Has anyone else used this software? Are there any potential trouble areas I need to be wary of?
Todd
-Walk in balance-

I love the idea of all this being stored electronically. Many moons ago I worked for a company in a QA tech position. All the results were entered on the computer. The only problem we had was when the server went down. The plant ran 24/7 with or without the server and we had to do testing every 20 minutes. That is alot of data to just kick around until the server was up. How can you still have access to forms/documents you need if you experience technical problems? I would be sooo happy if someone could give me a solution to this because I want to move to an electronic system. I am sure an auditor would want to know too.

Allie said:

I love the idea of all this being stored electronically. Many moons ago I worked for a company in a QA tech position. All the results were entered on the computer. The only problem we had was when the server went down. The plant ran 24/7 with or without the server and we had to do testing every 20 minutes. That is alot of data to just kick around until the server was up. How can you still have access to forms/documents you need if you experience technical problems? I would be sooo happy if someone could give me a solution to this because I want to move to an electronic system. I am sure an auditor would want to know too.

Personally, important data such as test results, shouldn't be trusted to electronics, working properly or not. Does everybody have access to a computer? If so, enter it, print it and store it. If you are confident/comfortable with your back up systems, trash the paper the next day. Who uses the info? Have them print it and maintain a hardcopy folder as records for a pre-determined time. This electronic paperless system is not a cure-all for all situations. Acquire an old file cabinet and use it. There's plenty of room, especially for records of results. Electronics for records? Scary, but not impossible. You have to know your system and the back-ups available. Off site, damage proof storage and so on. JMHO
:smokin:

I was more worried about not being able to access the blank forms/documents if the server was down. It's not a big deal to hang onto a hard copy of records like you say.
I just don't want to leave the employees with no access to the blank forms if they need them. I could have a master hard copy of all forms, but that defeats the purpose of a paperless system. Any suggestions?

Allie:

It sounds like you will need some type of paper available in case the server bombs. What we do with pretty much all of our forms is have a controlled copy of each printed on yellow paper and placed in 8 1/2" x 14" binders. These binders are kept near selected copiers. We have 3 of these binders on site - you may need more or less.

Then, we put out the word that bad things will happen to anyone caught using a yellow copy to fill out!

I can't remember who, but I shamelessly borrowed this system from someone. It's simple, and it works. Hope it helps

Craig H. said:

Allie:

It sounds like you will need some type of paper available in case the server bombs. What we do with pretty much all of our forms is have a controlled copy of each printed on yellow paper and placed in 8 1/2" x 14" binders. These binders are kept near selected copiers. We have 3 of these binders on site - you may need more or less.



Craig/Allie,

Call me an oldtimer, cuz I am :vfunny:, but I have a Master Log Book with all documents/procedures (originals) with authorizing signatures in my office. You can distinguish them from copies because the originals are in color, particularly our header logo. When we went paperless, I never trusted the idea of a completely paperless system for documents. Too many horror stories about servers crashing and losing good stuff. I do not trust that the IT person will remember to keep the backups as prescribed. He's only human. Print them. Store them. If you really want to get Anal about it, fire proof protect them.JMHO:smokin:

All,
Our servers are brand new and the doc. control system is backed up twice per day. The system has an automatic power backup generator as well. Worst case, a server bombs, the data can be re-installed on one of the other servers within a couple of hours. It more or less goes to a risk/benefit analysis. I’ll take the risk and the benefits. I hates paper (sorry old timer).
Currently our filled in forms (records) and instrument generated data (records) are retained for a short period of time. I would like to see the forms go to portable electronic notebooks (PDA’s perhaps) and the instrument data electronically recorded. We’ll probably be there in a couple more years. My opinion is that electronics are getting more reliable, more powerful and less expensive. It’s too tempting.

Todd
- walk in balance -

Okay guys I just read all that you have had to say and unfortunately I have not seen the info I am looking for.

We use Word and Excel but our problem is that for a single process we have a minimum of three Word documents and sometimes an Excel spreadsheet. The docs provide the specifications, instructions, checksheets and calculators. We have a hard time maintaining the links. i.e. the spec in one doc changes which would trigger a change in the operating doc check sheets, another in the inspection requirement doc and perhaps the excel calculator. I hope you get the gist of it.

How do you link individual line data, protect the document and yet still allow operators to enter info where required. Read only doesn't work because they need to enter data and besides hasn't anyone else ever encountering someone saving a read only file to a location where they have write access and making changes?

Any help would be appreciated as we are meeting weekly and trying to find a solution.

Karen-Dawn :p

Karen-Dawn said:

Okay guys I just read all that you have had to say and unfortunately I have not seen the info I am looking for.

How do you link individual line data, protect the document and yet still allow operators to enter info where required. Read only doesn't work because they need to enter data and besides hasn't anyone else ever encountering someone saving a read only file to a location where they have write access and making changes?

Any help would be appreciated as we are meeting weekly and trying to find a solution.

Karen-Dawn :p

Karen-Dawn,

Just might be that you cannot go paperless. Have you considered that? It's a great way to go, but, has it limitations. IMHO, nobody here can tell you how to do it unless they sit down at your desk and see what it is you want to do. I would venture that you have to give more people access to make changes. In that case, why protect it? The Boogey man? As for linking individual line line data, good luck. You are asking for something that this thread does doesn't address. This is about taking traditional documents and eliminating hardcopies by using hyperlinks. Sorry you haven't seen the information you're looking for. We try. :bonk: Try starting a new thread where the electonic geniuses can apply their mettle. Believe me, they're here. Graeme? :p :smokin:

Hullo Karen, and welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

Karen-Dawn said:
---X---
How do you link individual line data, protect the document and yet still allow operators to enter info where required. Read only doesn't work because they need to enter data and besides hasn't anyone else ever encountering someone saving a read only file to a location where they have write access and making changes?

Any help would be appreciated as we are meeting weekly and trying to find a solution.

Karen-Dawn :p

Good questions. I agree with energy (Well it happens :eek: ;) ). Let's start a new thread based on them. A quick comment would be that it is tricky to mix procedures and records, but it can be done.

/Claes

Paperless systems can create headaches when we try to think in terms of tradional document control of hard copy documents, but the thought process is very similar.

You can protect certain areas of documents created in Excel by just protecting the relevant fields. I am not sure how to do such a selective protection in Word. As for copying the protected document by a user to their own drives where they can make changes - yes this can happen, and could probably be done with any electronic system. The only way to avoid this is to instill the discipline of using the 'controlled' documents at the appropriate address on the system, and requesting any changes through the proper channels. This can be monitored through internal audit - but bear in mind that these documents are not bank notes, and people are probably not that interested in circumventing the system that they go to such extremes.

Also I dont think traditional hard copy documents are any more secure. I could scan them, run them through OCR software, make my changes and produce a print even with signatures on.

Personally I prefer MS Access for any data capture.

I'm using a similar system K-D, with 1 addition. I put our procedures & Flow Charts in .PDF format (Acrobat Writer). It also has a link tool which will send the person to the form necessary for the job. For example; the calibration tech pulls tools in for verification, he pulls up the flow or procedure follows for which tool s/he is doing and clicks on the appropriate box or record # and they are sent to the excel sheet to be used. They also have the option to print the form for manual use or input data (i.e. gage R&R) for electronic storage. The format of the form is what is under doc control not the data entered. We also have data in Access format set up the same way - control the "Report" format. Acrobat is inexpensive ($150) and can be used in a number of ways. I find it easy to use and control of the document is more flexible than the straight word or excel file. One other issue we have found, compatibility between upgrades in MS Office can be a problem. I have 2 Access data bases right now in Office 95 format, due to the changes in Access they can not be upgraded at all. The macros that we used are not compatible with 98 and above so we have 2 systems that are not upgradable until we delete the old and start a new data base. Lesson: Be careful how much customizing you do to the MS programs, it may come back to haunt you. Mr. Gates didn't make all that money by giving away free upgrades!!!!
:bonk:

Karen-Dawn said:

The docs provide the specifications, instructions, checksheets and calculators. We have a hard time maintaining the links. i.e. the spec in one doc changes which would trigger a change in the operating doc check sheets, another in the inspection requirement doc and perhaps the excel calculator. I hope you get the gist of it.

Karen-Dawn :p

KD,

Are you looking for a way to upgrade the links everytime you change the Mother document. Something that will do this automatically? My limited experience with hyper-linking in Word and Acrobat is that the associated links have to be changed manually. As for Access and Excel, I defer to Martin or Randy. When you say "trigger" a change, do you mean that this happens without manual input? Or, are you saying a change "triggers" you to go and manually change the links? I don't get the gist of it yet, I guess!:confused: :smokin: :bonk:

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input and I am not about to give up. I pretty much have the ability to change how we design and control our procedures, checksheets and data collection all I really need are some fresh ideas on how....

The current system consists of probably way more specifications than what most of you are used to. (Basically an NEC modelled system that was forced on us about 10 years ago). "Time for Change". So say we have a product dimension cited in a product spec., now that same dimension is also written on a checksheet in an operating spec and on a check sheet in an inspection spec. And...finally the dimension is needed in an Excel 'calculator' that say gives the operator the 'area' when they enter length and width. We are looking at a lot of time to revise/release each document whenever that initial part dimension changes, not to mention that we occasionally miss updating one of the needed changes in the thread. What I would like to do is link all the docs so that when you change the initial product spec, the checksheets and the spreadsheet change as well. But, operators cannot have access to changing the intitial product spec but need to write to the checksheets and the calculators...

I hope this defines my dilemma a little clearer.

One easy transition I can see is moving all the separate docs to Excel and use a separate page for each doc type (eg product spec, operating instr, inspection instr, start up checksheet, insp checksheets and finally applicable calculators). However, by giving operators write permission to complete the checksheets and use the calculator they can change the actual product dimensions as well... Is there a possible way to make Excel work or is there a better way?

Thanks Muchly, Still believe you can help me.

K-D:confused:

moving all the separate docs to Excel and use a separate page for each doc type

K-D,
I believe that is the only way to do in your current setup. What I would do is have the Product Spec sheet protected so the dimensions can't be changed. When you move to the calculations, reference the cell with the required dimension and hide the formula. All the operator will be doing is typing in the findings and the program will do the rest.

Have you thought about an SPC software?? Some of them are very cheep.

Thanks Randy,

But 'protection' is the concern right now. Is there a way to really protect the spec info from operator changes. (Anyone can hit a button or two and turn cell protection off.)

Karen-Dawn

I was just looking into a password protect when I was notified of your message on the board. Here is what I found, it's out of the help file.
Limit viewing and editing of an individual worksheet
When you protect the worksheet, the cells and graphic objects that you did not unlock in steps 2 and 3 are protected and cannot be changed.

Switch to the worksheet you want to protect.


Unlock any cells that you want to be able to change after you protect the worksheet.
How?

Unlock any graphic objects that you want to be able to change after you protect the worksheet.
How?

Hide any formulas that you don't want to be visible.
How?

On the Tools menu, point to Protection, and then click Protect Sheet.


To prevent changes to cells on worksheets or to data and other items in charts, and to prevent viewing of hidden rows, columns, and formulas, select the Contents check box.
To prevent changes to graphic objects on worksheets or charts, select the Objects check box.

To prevent changes to the definitions of scenarios on a worksheet, select the Scenarios check box.

To prevent others from removing worksheet protection, type a password, click OK, and then retype the password in the Confirm Password dialog box. Passwords are case sensitive. Type the password exactly as you want to enter it, including uppercase and lowercase letters.

If you assign a password, write it down and keep it in a secure place. If you lose the password, you cannot gain access to the protected elements on the worksheet.

Hope it helps.

K-D,

I agree with Randy's idea. You can also use MS Word if most of the stuff is text, pictures, etc. and insert a small Excel spreadsheet to do any calculations with.

As far as protection so the spec's. cannot be changed, I'm not sure why you are so worried about that. Has this been a problem? Isn't turning on sheet protections enough security to keep floor-level people from making changes? Seems to me it would take a maliscious employee to do that, in which case a person like that will always find ways to cause problems. Besides, they could only change it on the open file, not the "master", right?

Am I missing something?

I just tried Stew's suggestion with a dummy spreadsheet and it seems to work, the password seems to follow the file even if you move it to a new folder.

I agree that keeping malicious employee's from screwing things up is almost impossible but I am sure you have all experienced more problems than you ever wanted to related to the 'not so experienced' user, just hitting the wrong keys:frust:

Thanks-Muchly I will definitely submit these options at our next meeting. I have to admit that I have been reading these forums for awhile now but as a first time user, I am genuinely impressed!:D

K-D

Karen-Dawn,

I see in an earlier post that Energy thinks I may have something useful to contribute. :bigwave: I will try. (By the way, your name is really catching to me -- my wife is a Karen and her youngest sister is a Dawn!)

From your descriptions, my opinion is that you may need an electronic system based on something a little more powerful than Word and Excel. Your people are having to enter the same data multiple times, something that is never a good idea because every keystrove is an opportunity for error. (As my spelling sometimes shows!) You probably would be better served by using a relational database system (Microsoft Access 97 or later, as an example of one) and a set of purpose-designed forms, reports and data entry screens. However, setting this up is not really for the novice ...

I think the first step is to organize your information into two types - data that describes what the product is supposed to be, and data that shows what actually happened when each item was made.

The data that describes the product is your specifications and tolerances, part numbers, revision date, contract numbers, NC instructions and so on. This information would be entered in the database by the responsible person in the office, and not routinely changed after that. It is more or less "permanent" information. When you create a procedure, form, instruction or checklist, the document can link to tables and fields in the database and automatically plug in the current data when printed. ("Print" can be to paper, but it can also be to another document, or to a PDF file.) Even better, in many systems the documents and forms can actually be stored in the database!
The data that describes what happened includes the measurements made during production, and can be entered using custom screens. A typical sequence would be to enter a tracking number (which would then pop up the part specifications), and then the data. Calculations can be handled as well, so a separate spreadsheet may not be needed. at the end, the data is stored in the database, and can be retrieved as needed.


Setting up the database requires expertise with relational database systems. Creating the documents with links to the database requires experience with ODBC or SQL links. (Word's MailMerge feature is a simple example.) Creating custom data entry and viewing screens requires expertise with Visual Basic for Applications (assuming the database is Access.) And all of it requires time, patience and re$ources.

With a properly designed relational database system, you should hardly ever have to enter a data item more than once. Everything should be grouped in small units (tables) of organized and related information, related to one thing that stays the same (the part number?). A real database guru can probably explain it better, but here is a simple example:
One table contains the part numbers. That number links to other tables that have different information -- Dimensions, Revisions, Units_Made, Contracts, and so on. The dimensions table conains the part number (it has to, to allow the linking), the dimensions, the tolerances, and the current revision date (another link). The Units_Made table contains the part number (for the link), a unique tracking number (serial number?), and whatever measurement data was collected for that specific piece of stuff. And so on.

I usually think of a relational database like a special type of file cabinet. Open a drawer and pull out a file folder. That folder has some of the information you want, and it also tells you where to find other information. In an "ideal" system (as opposed to the real world that we live in) a particular piece of information lives in only one file folder. All of the other files that use that information simply have a pointer telling the system (you) where to find it. The big advantage is that if a change is needed, only one thing is changed, one time. The drawback is that is may take the computer a couple of microseconds longer to retrieve it.

Feedback time -- have I helped, or simply added to the confusion?

K-D,

You can do the same kind of thing Stew expounded on regarding Excel in Word. Use section breaks to select certain sections of the document that you want to protect from changes. The Word help file will explain all of this protection stuff -- it is pretty easy. The stuff (text, formulas, specifications, whatever) inside the protected section of the doc can be read but cannot be changed -- you cannot even get the cursor to go there -- unless you supply a password as in Excel.

Either protection method is as idiot proof/jerk proof as you will likely ever need. Anyone who goes to the trouble to crack a Word or Excel password (it is doable) will cause much more trouble than changing a spec. on a quality procedure.

Good luck. Maybe next time you visit you'll be able to help someone else.

Thanks Graeme,

I do understand what you are talking about as we use Visual Manufacturing for tracking most (if not all) the items you mentioned. We have discussed that we may have to use a database system like visual (or Access which I am not familiar with) to do what we want (more the links to operator set points, etc. used for set-ups and inspections... However, we have also recognized the need for the resources ($) you mentioned and want to avoid if at all possible.

Muchly Karen-Dawn

And yes I am more than willing to help in the future if/when possible. Although I may sound somewhat 'out-of'it' when it comes to computer programs my real expertise is in designing, implementing Management Systems and Auditing (Internal and External).

Later.:bigwave:

Karen-Dawn said:
---X---
And yes I am more than willing to help in the future if/when possible. Although I may sound somewhat 'out-of'it' when it comes to computer programs my real expertise is in designing, implementing Management Systems and Auditing (Internal and External).

Later.:bigwave:

Brilliant! That's what we are looking for. :D

I was thinking about another way of handling the documents: We do it by putting the them in a limited access part of the network. Everyone has read access to the documents via a menu on our intranet, but they get a copy via a cache. They can alter the copy, but they can never touch the original file.

This works out pretty well when we want to update procedures: The owner updates a copy and sends it to me in a mail. Then I move it to the restricted partition.

/Claes

hello all,

can you list all the programs needed in going paperless?
These are the only programs I can think of! I think microsoft Word can be converted to acrobat.

1) Acrobat -- for general documents
2) Frontpage -- for html format (so it would sort of act like a switchboard for files)


cheers!

I'm not so certain about frontpage, but I would suggest some database program for keeping track of the files and feed the intranet with a menu.

You should also consider buying a ready made application. It may be cheaper than the manhours it takes putting it together yourself.

/Claes

FrontPage is great for the extra security you get...i.e. only a few folks are set up with the security to actually add/revise documents, but you don't need it. Word will let you save stuff as html. (background: I find it easier to control the docs through a web publishing software - FrontPage - than have word documents on the web. You can open a web page and then go to file and edit, save it to your own drive and voila! you now have an uncontrolled copy. Using a web publisher you can make the documents "look" unique and something filched off the web and changed in Word won't look identical)

You will probably want a decent flow charting software, you could not pay me enough to use word or excel for flow charting:rolleyes: Decent does not have to be expensive, just user friendly. I use Visio, but SmartDraw is supposed to be good also.

I would also suggest some good graphics software, Corel and MS Image Composer are 2 that come to mind. A scanner always comes in handy especially if you want to include any pictures from handbooks, or photos into your work instructions. And, of course, your Acrobat readers on the employee machines and the full blown version on the machine where you do your doc control.

You should think about a dedicated server or space on one, don't try to serve this kind of project off of someone's desk top. A server can be as simple as an extra desktop unit, or as complex as you want it. We use a modular server set up, but everything here is very automated and computer driven.

When you set up your web, have a working copy that you use to make your changes in. When approved, publish the changed documents onto the "master" web. This ensures that 1) you always have a copy of the entire web at your fingertips (vs having to wait to upload a backup from yesterday and possibly losing something) 2) if you do make a mistake and everything is FUBAR, you have the master to download back.

Comments have been made about a database to control documentation, and yes that works well, and as mentioned there are lots of off-the-shelf things you can use. Buying a document control software, or web-hosting type set up will reduce the amount of other softwares you need. It depends on your product. It all kind of goes back to the "one size fits all" - NOT! You can control the documentation without the database, and if you use FP there are report functions that give you a lot of information about rev's, etc. If it is a small company and you are just getting started on a documented quality system, you can probably get by without creating a database. Once you are into it and your system is stabilized, you will be able to tell exactly what you need as far as a database goes. So, there are many ways to go.

hope that some of this is useful to you, good luck.

We use an intranet based manual. I'll use word in a pinch, but really perfer to hand code the pages. Really a breeze after you put together the template pages.

One question I do have is how everyone handles issuance of Process Prints, Control Plans, etc. for jobs? Do you use a central place (QA, Gage Lab, Tool Crib) to issue these or do you keep them available at the point of use and update accordingly? If you issue them when the job gets set up, do you discard them after that run is done, or do you return them for storage until next time? I'm working on just such a "central storage" project and would like everyone's input on the pro's & con's of this process. I'm all for electronic storage and discarding the documents after use. This way the documentation they get is always the newest revision. What works for you?

I gotta stop volunteering for these projects!
:bonk:

Can anyone tell me how they handled control of forms electonically? I have my documentationa available on an intranet on many computers throughout the company. Quality Policy, manual, procedures and work instructions are pdf with security on pritning and modifing. The forms are word or excel files password protected for modifing but can be printed.
I should say some can be printed, as other forms are part of a database and are available to the user who has the datbase program. Then , I have forms that are actually stickers. I was thinking of stating on the page that you will be notified if there is any modifiaction or new forms are entered into the system. It is your repsonsibility to discard all unused form(s) in your posession.
Does anyon ehave a procedure that they may be willign to share that shows how they control electrnic documentation?

Just a thought...why don't you write the procedure describing what you do. Then compare it to your standard and see if it works.

Anyone else have any ideas or thoughts?

We don't have sticker forms, but I believe that there are many Cove members that do and I look forward to their responses.

All of our documentation is maintained electronically. Only designated people have the ability to modify and approve the forms. I will be honest here, we do not protect the fields of our forms (I believe there is the capability to prevent identified fields from being modified and leaving others blank so that they can be completed)...but we have great group of people who understand why we have a Business Management System and they don't mess around with things. Or perhaps they're afraid of me. Or perhaps a bit of both. :o

We keep revision logs to show changes made to electronic forms (including software forms and databases).

Not sure if that helps much.

but we have great group of people who understand why we have a Business Management System and they don't mess around with things. Or perhaps they're afraid of me. Or perhaps a bit of both. :o


same here....especially the "they're afraid of me" part...yeah, right, these guys might be pussy cats, but they are still not very afraid of me!

anyway, forms are word or excel, published on internet as pdf files so they can be printed (but not modified). As far as revisions go, anyone can suggest a revision but it must be approved by the document owner and myself before it actually gets revised. We created our own software that allows you to pull up the doc, push a button to bring up a "copy" that you can edit, then when you save it, it goes into que for the owner to approve, then it comes (automatic) to my que.

I woudl like to save a great deal of time with the approval on work instructions in particular , as there are more of them. I have just moved the QM and the procedures to electonic ocntrol with the expception of the original QM and procedures with the original sign off by myself and the plant manager.
Now , so far I'm stating that I am mianitnaing a revison approval book of the revision page of the work instructions becuase the past history was written .
This is a pain , in fact now i have to control this book, I heard that typed in signatures were acceptbale? Does anyone have thoughts on this? How woudl I move to this? And do I need to keep a master list of the docuemnts and their revision status or is there another way.
My approved supplier list is in a database, do I have to put a revison on this and list it in my master list? I wnated to move to a modification date showing up.

I woudl like to save a great deal of time with the approval on work instructions in particular , as there are more of them. I have just moved the QM and the procedures to electonic ocntrol with the expception of the original QM and procedures with the original sign off by myself and the plant manager.

Why is the approval process so cumbersome? ISO doesn't tell you what your approval process is supposed to be...you need to develop something that works for you. If it ain't working, it's time to fix it.

We have the department manager's responsible for approving documents in their areas. It would be far too impractical for me to have all members of the Management Committee approve my documents, so it falls to our General Manager. Production-based documents are approved by the Production Managers, and so on.

Now , so far I'm stating that I am mianitnaing a revison approval book of the revision page of the work instructions becuase the past history was written .
This is a pain , in fact now i have to control this book,

We don't keep a history of the page revisions...that would be too time consuming. We change the document, record the change in the document's individual revision log at the end of the document, send for approval - the end. Each document has its own "Reason for Change" table at the end of it. We do record the section where the modification occurred, though, but not the page number.

I heard that typed in signatures were acceptbale? Does anyone have thoughts on this? How woudl I move to this?

We allow for electronic signatures through our approval process. When a document is sent for approval, in order for the Approver to approve/disapprove the document, s/he must first enter in their password. It's a feature of our document control software which it sounds like you do not have. For those people who are using Word or Excel, do any of you allow for electronic signatures and how to you ensure that they are "valid"?

And do I need to keep a master list of the docuemnts and their revision status or is there another way.

You need to be able to know what the status is of all your documents and most organizations do this through a master list. Our document control software does this automatically for us.

If you're using Word/Excel, I suppose you might be able to argue that your directory that lists all the documents is your master list, but I would then ask how you know what revision the documents are at. If you filed them like "F-876 Internal Audit Report (rev 6)" that should work. Does anyone use that kind of filing system?

My approved supplier list is in a database, do I have to put a revison on this and list it in my master list? I wnated to move to a modification date showing up.

How do you know what level your list is at? How do people know that they have access to the latest version? That's what a master list is supposed to help with...and access rights to electronic documents.

It may be overkill but working with formal CM tools allows me all the control I could ever need to ensure I have adequate change management. I port docs to our intranet web server where they are considered to be the master versions. Any asset downloaded or printed is considered uncontrolled (it is stated in the footer of the documents or elsewhere). These documents are secure pdf files. I keep the working versions in MS VSS.

As far as approvals go, our procedures state that if the document makes it to intranet, it has gone through the review and approval process as appropriate for that particular asset/document. There is not enough time in the year to make sure the right folks get their "John Henry's" on every document, procedure, form, etc. The standard does not tell you what you have to specifically do regarding approvals and signatures, etc. One should do what is most cost effective and efficient for the organization.

Digital signatures are cool if you use them but the process can be a bit interesting in getting it all setup and folks trained on using them.

You may want to check into a really great tool called "Agile Product Lifecycle Management" or AGILE PLM. Here's the link:

http://www.agile.com/solutions/agile9/index.asp

It is a module based application so you can build up a system for your particular needs. It has CM capabilities, reviewing-routing-approving documents, and much, much more functionality and features. I used it extensively at a former employer and was very impressed with it. Do not let it overwhelm you. Take a look around their site and see what they have to offer.

On a much more simpler note, you can use the "Routing" feature of MS Office to move documents, spreadsheets, presentations around the organization for review and approval. It works pretty well. Here's a link for more information:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/assistance/HA010552481033.aspx

Have fun...Good luck! :)