Added in edit by Forum Moderator 3-26-2008:
Here's a thread that began long before I registered and ran over a year (December 2002 through January 2004.) Despite some detours, it deals primarily with the traumas of being laid off and struggling to get a new job in a tough economic climate.

We have several current threads going about job hunting and getting interviews along with packaging yourself via resumes and cover letters to present the best picture to a prospective employer.

I think it's worth the time to revisit this thread and see that being fired (no euphemisms here) is not unique. It happens to many people through no real fault of their own. Being fired means it's OK to feel sorry for yourself for a little while, but then you have to start work full time on the new job - "job hunting!" It's strictly commission, you don't get paid until you make a sale!

When you hunt for that job, make sure all your tools and weapons are in first rate shape. The most important tool is attitude! I'll be taking that topic up soon in the "gatekeeper" thread http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325
This seems like a good place to put this.

My Fellow Cove Members,

The holidays are upon us and it is a time for rejoicing. There are probably a few who will do just that at this little piece of news. But, I’m a big boy. Enjoy.

Energy has been given the old heave ho, the walk of shame, handed his hat, booted or using the preferred term, “terminated” from his place of employment for the last two years. (Just about the time I joined the Cove.) Top Management has decided to abandon attempts at ISO registration and maintaining a Quality Department, therefore my services will no longer be needed. I believe there are posts recommending doing just that. What a Christmas present. The Managers who refused to cooperate and contribute their share to the ISO effort will enjoy Christmas with the family “employed”. I believe it was Jim Wade who said that we have to be Salesmen. I think it was Mike S. who expressed anger that the Mgt Rep/QA Mgr could lose his/her job because others ducked responsibility for successful implementation. Well, you were both right. I couldn’t sell them. I relied heavily on Top Management to force a commitment. Many of my posts complained at the lack of Top management’s commitment, but that was here in the Cove. When you are told that “we don’t have time for crap right now” from your boss, back to work you go. Unfortunately, that boss has also fallen into disfavor with the “Grinch who stole Christmas” and has been re-assigned, but still working. And, that’s what it’s really all about. Mike S., that’s the thin line we walk. You just hope that it doesn’t happen.

So, I will join Lucinda and others who may be seeking employment. At the age of, soon to be 60, it won’t be easy. The employment picture is bleak and it looks like a long haul. Posting is not the same without a nice office and weekly checks, but I’ll drop by from time to time to read and stay abreast of the latest trends. No jokes. You have to be in the mood. Later Y’all.

Bill :bigwave: :smokin:

Sorry to hear that. You'll find another 'Master' soon, thought, so enjoy the free time as best you can.

Energy - I am sorry to hear your news. I am on the other side of 60 and I sure know how I would feel in the same situation. With the ecconomy what it is, that is a possibility I face and worry about daily.

I have often wondered what I would do if it came to it and have always thought I could at least pick up some time auditing, teaching, or consulting. With your experience and knowledge you would be a value in all of those areas.

I sure wish you the best and will let you know if I hear anything through our suppliers and customers in your area. Be sure to let me know if there is anything I can do to help - you have my e-mail.

Dave

energy,

Sorry to hear the news. Cheese has a bad habit of getting moved!

I do remember having mentioned in one of the threads a few months ago that you would make an excellent consultant, just as Dave has said here.

Whatever you decide to do, I do hope you would stay on with the Cove and wish you all that is best in your future endeavors.

Sincerely,
-Atul.

Bill, this stinks!!

The first thought that came into my mind is that they don't deserve your services, anyway. Leave them to swing in the wind.

Several here have mentioned that you would make a great consultant. I agree. You seem to be eager to help others, and you have a lot of knowledge to share. If your sense of humor in person is anything like it is on the 'net, getting along with clients should be a natural for you.

Great luck with whatever you decide to do. I'll keep my ears open...

Dam*it, Energy, I didn't want to hear something like that today! But of course neither did you! While I wish you could have left on YOUR terms, not theirs, I agree that they didn't deserve you, that you were being forced to live with the lack of support by others, forced to do most all of it yourself, thereby making your job nearly impossible (I know the feeling well). Imagine the Mfg. guys being told to do their job alone with no support from Purchasing, Engineering, QA, HR, or Finance! I'd like to see them get a taste of that medicine to bring it into better focus for them! But I'm preaching to the choir...

Between you and Lucinda this is getting depressing. I understand your concern with age possibly being a barrier. Hopefully you can get in with a company that will see the benefits, not the drawbacks. Tell 'em how you outworked the young whipper snappers, what a vast range of experience you have, and how you'd be a great mentor. Maybe offer to come on board as a consultant first to get their trust. Use the 'net; use networking anong friends and associates; especially consider calling suppliers you worked with who might have liked your style and asking if they have any leads for you. Ya never know. And take the time to write a killer resume' -- I think that is VERY important. Perhaps you can get some advice as to how to handle the age issue at www.workforce.com, a forum-type web site similar to the Cove that deals with all types of HR related issues and seems to have lots of participation. Ask a HR dude what gives them a warm feeling when dealing with older applicants.

Keep dropping in here to stay sharp and stay out of the dumps. If there is anything I/we could do to help, let us know.

:(
Energy, I'm truly sorry to hear your news. I'd like to be able to say something that might lift your spirits, but I don't know what that would be.

I, too, will keep my ears to the ground and relay anything I hear about (for you to Lucinda!).

Please stay in touch here at the Cove and let us know how your search is progressing.

Hang in there and I wish you the best possible holiday season.

Bill

Energy,

Sorry to hear about things. I hope you stick around the cove until you find something else, that way we can all listen to you complain about your new job. :vfunny:

Get some extra fishing in for me :bigwave:

KRAP!!!:mad:

Is there any way that you can use this in a positive fashion? I don't know what kind of alphabet you can place behind your name, but you ought to try to capitalize on what you have. As a couple of others have said you can become a consultant (also called a Corporate Mercenary or Corporate Whore by some because we sell ourselves to the highest bidder) or even take a shot at getting some training gigs like I do.

Start checking with the ISO training providers listed in Quality Digest or on the RAB page as a start.

Keep in touch

Your friend

Randy Daily:bigwave:

Have been in a similar situation recently.

I am approaching 60 at a rather rapid pace.

Some thoughts:
* When talking with headhunters, I made sure they understood my age.
* I did not try to stay in the same industry.
* I slimmed down (about 20 pounds), got a couple of new suits and power ties, and a new set of eyeglasses.
* Practiced my interviewing skills.
* Read eveything on the Internet related to older persons in the job market.
* Used monster.com. A key here is to ensure your title really grabs atention.
* As stated above, solid resume is another key. By now you know all the tricks -- talk about accomplishments, use money and data to support, etc.

I got a job offer in about five months. The group is fairly young (I am at least 20 years older that the oldest), but the manager wanted someone with experience to balance the group.

Nothing anyone can say can ease the pain right now. But know that you are respected by those of us who hang out here and I think that counts for a lot.

Good luck.

I feel really humble and thankful for the kind words and praise. Thanks for the private messages, too. I promise to keep in touch. I miss the Cove involvement as I knew I would. Peace. I have a long shot in the works. If it happens, it won't be until after the holidays. If not, this advice helps a lot. Thank you all.
:smokin:

Dear Energy,

It sure sounds like this company didn't deserve you. The same goes for Lucinda. We all have enoromous respect for your skills. It's a pity that your company chose the dark side. My motto is: "Time wounds all heels" Your ex-boss WILL get his. ;)

After many years in a job and career he hated, my husband quit his job 2 years ago. He evaluated his personal interests and decided to make a career out of his enjoyment of computers. He got A1 certification and 6 months after quitting, got a new job as a computer tech in our local school system. He had previously spent 10 years teaching, understands the environment, and is the happiest I've seen him in years. He was 50 when this happened, and his reliability and people skills were greatly valued in a world where most techs are pretty young and nerdy.

Take a look at your personal interests...I'll bet there's something there that you can build on.

I'm rooting for you! :bigwave:
Rosie

Oh golly sweetpea. I am absolutely stunned. You could not have shocked me more.

Your resume is super. It won't take you long to find something. Now spend a few days in your bathrobe and then enjoy the Christmas season the way you probably haven't had time to do in years.

I'll send you a PM later. Gotta run now..Take care,

Cinda

Good Luck and remember it will turn out to be the best thing that happened to you. Keep the faith!!

Energy,

Not much to add ("when one door closes, another opens" etc., etc.) to what has been said before, except:

From my experience, I'd suggest that whatever you get into next, you enjoy it. Nothing wrong with getting back into the same situation as before provided it makes you want to get up in the morning and face it :vfunny:

Please contnue to visit as I've come to appreciate the "energy" of your contributions.

qualitymanager

I knew buying that company would prove fruitful sooner or later.
Please re-enlist - I couldn't stand another consultant on the cove slipping into sales mode.
Besides, the man doesn't pay that badly.
I expect you'll be back whingeing about other senior mangers in no time.
Perhaps now is a good opportunity to fly to Texas and visit Lucinda for a bit of scuba diving.
Strewth, you could fly a bit further and come croc' wrestling with me and Steve Irwin.

Regards,
Bill Tomasso

David Mullins said:

I knew buying that company would prove fruitful sooner or later.
Please re-enlist - I couldn't stand another consultant on the cove slipping into sales mode.
Besides, the man doesn't pay that badly.
I expect you'll be back whingeing about other senior mangers in no time.
Perhaps now is a good opportunity to fly to Texas and visit Lucinda for a bit of scuba diving.
Strewth, you could fly a bit further and come croc' wrestling with me and Steve Irwin.

Regards,
Bill Tomasso

David,

I said in the original post that there would be those who would rejoice in my bad news. I never thought you would be one of them. For those who don't know, the name after regards is the same name as the brother of the CEO who did the dirty deed. Thanks for the laugh. I bet you're a hit at funerals, too! :confused: :(

It's said that things happen for the best. Someone much smarter than I pointed out what absolute nonsense that is.. but that we each can try to make the best from what we've been given. Best of luck to you.

Energy, I was in the same situation last year. Came back from vacation and the boom was lowered. It took awhile to lick my wounds, but I was lucky to find a job, although at a 40% paycut, but I am still counting my blessings. Hang in there, I know it is tough. :(

energy said:
I never thought you would be one of them. (


And I'm not.


Also, I haven't wrestled croc's, but I have wrestled reindeer.

David,

For a moment there, I thought you were Bill Tomasso masquerading as an Aussie Bloke. The mind is a terrible thing when the wires get frayed. Later Guy.:agree: :smokin:

tarheel said:

Energy, I was in the same situation last year. Came back from vacation and the boom was lowered. It took awhile to lick my wounds, but I was lucky to find a job, although at a 40% paycut, but I am still counting my blessings. Hang in there, I know it is tough. :(

tar,

It happened ten years ago when I was 49. Been there. It also took 10 1/2 months to find something. 40% cut? That's not bad. It's better than nothing. It's only been a week, but those old feelings-long forgotten, didn't waste anytime getting here. I received an e-mail from the consultant on the ill-fated ISO attempt yesterday. One sentence in the personal message stood out. "You gave it the old college try, but ran into the proverbial immovable object." That sums it up, for me. Probably why I'm angry and upset. Is it a performance issue? Maybe. But if any part of that "immovable object" reported to me, they would be sitting where I am a long time ago.

Me? I'll probably take 30%. That is, if there is an offer!! :vfunny:
:smokin:

Energy,

Sounds like the consultant nailed it right. If it were truly a performance issue (on your part), and if the company were a decent one, you would have received a verbal warning and if necessary a written warning detailing the specifics of the "performance issue" prior to being shown the door. That's just customary for any kind of a decent company IMO even though you may be an "employment-at-will" state.

Is there anyone there higher-up the ladder who would give you a written recommendation/reference? Any customers/suppliers you dealt with who could do the same? The consultant's letter is a good start. It could help in the future -- evidence that you weren't a non-performer, just that the company lost their will to pursue quality. And as I said before, I'd correspond with some HR types (like on the boards at workforce.com) and ask their free advice on handling the age issue if you think it might be a problem.

Any thoughts to trying a headhunter? I assume you're scouring the 'net job boards, the ASQ employment openings service, and the local job service.

Unfortunately, finding a job can be like a full-time job with no pay or bennies. But this is war, and you'll eventually prevail. Hopefully they were decent enough to offer a severance package.

Good luck, and let me/us know if I/we can help in any way.

Mike S. said:

Energy,

Sounds like the consultant nailed it right. If it were truly a performance issue (on your part), and if the company were a decent one, you would have received a verbal warning and if necessary a written warning detailing the specifics of the "performance issue" prior to being shown the door. That's just customary for any kind of a decent company IMO even though you may be an "employment-at-will" state.

Is there anyone there higher-up the ladder who would give you a written recommendation/reference? Any customers/suppliers you dealt with who could do the same? The consultant's letter is a good start. It could help in the future -- evidence that you weren't a non-performer, just that the company lost their will to pursue quality. And as I said before, I'd correspond with some HR types (like on the boards at workforce.com) and ask their free advice on handling the age issue if you think it might be a problem.

Any thoughts to trying a headhunter? I assume you're scouring the 'net job boards, the ASQ employment openings service, and the local job service.

Unfortunately, finding a job can be like a full-time job with no pay or bennies. But this is war, and you'll eventually prevail. Hopefully they were decent enough to offer a severance package.

Good luck, and let me/us know if I/we can help in any way.

Mike S.,

I was paid right up to the moment I was harpooned. No more. I had a little over a week's vacation left. I got that. Right down to the the .01. And, now, I have a hearing next week for determination to see if I qualify for unemployment compensation. Company feels it's a perfromance issue and they shouldn't be charged for unemployment. Nice Guys! That's O.K. I have records showing who owed me what and when. I managed to keep a hardcopy, for whatever reason. It's titled "ISO Homework Assignments". By departments and names. Updated every week. Guess what? None of them report to me. They all report to the Grinch! Of course, I also have the Consultants e-mail (if I need it) to fortify my position, if it is said to be a performance issue. I would have to agree completely. You just got the wrong guy! **** em! ;) :smokin:

With no severance, I would go for the age discrimation suit. When it happened to me, I threatened and received 6 additional weeks severance over and above what they offered. Especially if you have any documentation at all, you should have them right where you want them.

tarheel said:

With no severance, I would go for the age discrimation suit. When it happened to me, I threatened and received 6 additional weeks severance over and above what they offered. Especially if you have any documentation at all, you should have them right where you want them.


Tar

HMMMMMMM! The thought did cross my mind. They are hard to prove, but to sic the agencies on them would be nice. This is a Right to Work states, but you never know. I have a cousin who is an Attorney. I may just ask. maybe she'll take me Pro "BONO?" Thanks. Merry Christmas.

I'll be changing my user name soon. It's coined from the Company's name when we were friends. I have to check on the ramifications.:bigwave: :smokin:

Hey, energy, who is the new guy that took over your picture!!??!

Wow! No severance! Saying they terminated you for poor performance! Nervy ba5tards, huh? What a bunch of slimes. Do they have any records of verbal and/or written warnings relating to this "poor performance" prior to the termination? If not, the unemployment folks should ask why the alleged performance issues were not documented. What did your last review or last several reviews look like -- were any performance issues noted there? If not, again they (the UI people) should ask why. If you don't have a copy of your review and they were good, ask the UI people to ask for them from the company. And I'd definitely use the note from the consultant -- a 3rd party view couldn't hurt. And your docs as to what they owed you but did not follow through on should help, too. Anything you have to support your position -- this is what they asked you to do, this is what you did, this is the lack of support, etc. Maybe sum it all up in a 1-2 page bullet point summary with the support docs referenced (showing your record-keeping and organizational skills like any good QM). Don't hold anything back -- this is war! And if you think it was age related, look into it. Good luck and keep us apprised of your progress.

One more thing Energy... Watch what you write here -- since they knew you post here they might be checking in to see what you're up to. Don't give 'em anything to use against you. But, some of your old posts might help to remind you of the whens and whats regarding their lack of support. Get 'em!

Mike S.

They can look all they want. I will get my compensation. Anyway, read the following for a glimpse of winning a case of improper employer conduct in a Employment-AT-Will state, such as Connecticut:

In 'The Effect of the Employment-At-Will Rule on Employee Rights to Job Security and Fringe Benefits', Fordham Urban Law Journal, 1982, Volume X, number 1, pp. 1-71, Joseph DeGiuseppe discusses this issue revealingly. For example:

The overwhelming majority of jurisdictions continue to adhere to the view that employment relationships of an indefinite duration may be terminated at anytime without notice 'for good cause, for no cause, or even for cause morally wrong' [Payne v Western & Atl RR, 81 Tenn 507, 519-20 (1884)]

and:

The employment-at-will rule has withstood numerous challenges since its inception. Dismissals have been upheld under the at-will rule where employees have reported kickbacks, refused the sexual advances of their employer, refused to take a psychological stress test, filed workmen's compensation claims, indicated their availability for jury duty, refused to support political candidates favored by their employers, filed unemployment insurance claims, expressed concern about the safety of the employer's product, and filed complaints with government regulatory agencies concerning allegedly improper conduct by their employer. [more citations than I care to enter here, but at least one for each.] (AGE?)
as well as in the case of contracts unpaid or unenforceable because of fraud.

While it doesn't specifically mention age, this stuff is worse. Good grief.

Craig H. It's just ole ugly me. Our creator wasn't too kind to some of us, either! :vfunny: :smokin:

5h!7
Didn't know your employer stiffed you for redundancy.
From local knowledge (but not personal experience), even when you successfully win a case for wrongful dismissal (if they categorise it as that), the pay-out is often disappointing. This may be different over there.
Here you might get 2 weeks pay for year of service, and be ineligible for benefits for that period of unemployment (which would all be after the event and you end up paying back unemployment benefits, etc).
I can't say you'll be less bitter over time. Let's just keep thinking positive thoughts though.

Energy,

These days, in our litigous society where people win some really stupid suits, in the case of sexual advances at work and some of those other issues you mentioned resulting in termination, I'd never bet against the employee in the majority of cases if he/she has a decent attorney and some modicum of proof and a decent prior employment record. But I guess anything can and does happen.

But I'm sure you know, you don't have such a big burden of proof in the case of unemployment benefits as you would in court -- at least in my prior experience. I'd think you have a very strong case for getting unemployment, especially if you have no mention of poor performance issues in your last review and they have no record of warnings. But, I've been wrong before. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

By the way -- I once filed a complaint to HR regarding sexual harassment and was simply told to go away and leave them alone! I told them, "I've got a complaint. I've worked here for 6 months and no one has sexually harassed me yet!" :vfunny: (Lest anyone get upset, that was intended as a joke many years ago. In reality I've never stood for any of that stuff in the workplace, and I never will. ):truce:

Mike S. said:

Energy,


But I'm sure you know, you don't have such a big burden of proof in the case of unemployment benefits as you would in court -- at least in my prior experience. I'd think you have a very strong case for getting unemployment, especially if you have no mention of poor performance issues in your last review and they have no record of warnings. But, I've been wrong before. Good luck and let us know how it goes.



Mike S.,

The law is quite clear under what circumstances someone may be denied unemployment compensation in this state:

1. Willful Misconduct
2. Felonious Conduct
3. Larceny
4. Participation in a Strike
5. Term of Imprisonment of 30 days or longer
6. Failing a Drug or Alcohol test

It's just the idea having to explain why citing performance is absurd. I have had no bad reviews, for 2000-2001, (just good ones) no warnings (written or verbal), etc. Now, because our annual reviews are annual, you can bet that the one due for 2002 is going to be a beauty. I haven't seen it, but I may get a chance to. All depends. I was told that the Quality Department and the ISO effort were eliminated, along with my position. They decided to check discharged on the paper. Checking off Lack of work or layoff, while still being a pretty sh*tty thing to do right before Christmas, wouldn't require a hearing. They're stupid.

Now it will be up to the Board to decide how someone who has never been fired in their entire working life just decided to all of a sudden turn bad. Performance history is indicated by ever increasing responsibilities and higher paying jobs since 1966. And, worse, performance is not a lawful reason to deny benefits.

No, it's something else. That's what makes me angry and hurt. We cannot turn back the body clock. It just so happens that I was the oldest person employed with this company. My ex-boss, not the CEO, is a few months my junior. But, he has a contract and that makes all the difference. He would have never done this. He hired me based on my past performance working with him in a previous life. It's just wrong, and worse, no recourse. O.K. Enough of a rant. My task for today is to mail out X-mas cards, go to the dentist and send out token resumes for jobs that will never get a response. Geez. And, Mike, they ask me why I drink! :vfunny: :smokin:

Well, well...I thought our company had the monopoly on heartless bastards who feel it necessary to can someone right before Christmas. The butthole must have worked here at one time or another. Fortunately, the "workforce reduction" hasn't hit here yet.

So energy, what can I say? Nothing that already hasn't been said. ;)

The only short term advice I can give is put it out of your mind until after the holidays and enjoy the time with family and friends.

Hang in there guy...good things happen to good people.

Energy? Sorry to read your news. I'm normally a lurker & haven't been here in - a while.

I was laid off 18 Octogre 2002. No work, too many staff on overhead...The office still needed toilet paper & light bulbs in the office so QA & materials management had to go. I was the Quality Manager for an industrial construction firm that had been managing the construction for new power plant builds. I got two weeks severence and my unused vacation. My first involuntary lack of work since 1983. :(

I've had one interview out of all the resumes sent out & while they called it a Quality Manager position, it was actually not QM. It was basically a document control clerical position.

This time of the year is a witch for finding work. :bonk:

I'm so tired of watching Animal Planet & Food Network while cruising monster.com, careerbuilder.com, & hotjobs.com, that I'm going to the orientation for substitute teachers for the MISD. At least the kids would present perhaps some challenge - I do remember how my class behaved with subs....

Good luck with your search....:bigwave:

leanne said:

Energy? Sorry to read your news. I'm normally a lurker & haven't been here in - a while.

I was laid off 18 Octogre 2002. No work, too many staff on overhead...The office still needed toilet paper & light bulbs in the office so QA & materials management had to go. I was the Quality Manager for an industrial construction firm that had been managing the construction for new power plant builds. I got two weeks severence and my unused vacation. My first involuntary lack of work since 1983. :(

I've had one interview out of all the resumes sent out & while they called it a Quality Manager position, it was actually not QM. It was basically a document control clerical position.

This time of the year is a witch for finding work. :bonk:

I'm so tired of watching Animal Planet & Food Network while cruising monster.com, careerbuilder.com, & hotjobs.com, that I'm going to the orientation for substitute teachers for the MISD. At least the kids would present perhaps some challenge - I do remember how my class behaved with subs....

Good luck with your search....:bigwave:

leanne,

I hear you loud and clear. These websites all look good when you're employed. Try the senior job banks if you really want to get depressed. People posting resumes with double MBA's. I'm not quite into Animal Planet, yet. Most of my time is spent listening to the Fox news network. I turn the volume up so I can listen while I work on cover letters and do household chores. My wife still has a job and she is a saint. She knows the possibilities of me finding something anyway related to our field are slim. That look. It really hurts. When she heads off to work, I feel like a sh*t. Can't do anything about it. Just have to keep plugging. Otherwise, I would have to seek counselling and that costs money. Stay involved with site. It is the one bright spot in my day. Won't get you a job, but who knows. Santa may be "lurking".

Ken,

You said it right. After the holidays, is the time to think of changing careers. I'm quite certain that Quality related jobs are not in the offing. Tons of Healthcare opportunities. But, while I can fillet a fish, I can't even think about what that job entails. Egads. Later Guy. ;) :smokin:

energy said:

But, while I can fillet a fish, I can't even think about what that job entails.

There's plenty of fishing related jobs around here (Seattle). Or you could always work down at the market tossing fish back and forth. :D

Nothing bad or mean meant, just couldn't resist it.

Leanne and Energy,

I feel for you -- due to a corporate sale and screwed-up takeover bid, I was out of work for a few months last year and I completely understand the feelings of loss, anger at being lied-to, worry about getting another job, financial fears, etc. I didn't have to worry about the age thing -- yet -- but my current job is not super-secure either due to poor tech sector performance as a whole and less than brilliant management decisions internally sometimes, so that old fear is always lurking.

Forgive me if some of the "advice" or ideas I cook-up seem simplistic sometimes -- I don't mean to insinuate that you can't think of these things for yourself but sometimes in a stressful situation things slip by.

Perhaps consider signing-up with the best temp. agency in your area. Temp. jobs, aside from bringing in some money and getting you doing something, can be a foot in the door at a company and perhaps you will be in the right place at the right time when a really good Q job opens-up! Never know. If you don't like it, you don't have to take it or stay there. Tell the agency what you want and see if they are willing to work with you (without forcing you to take a job as porta-potti cleaner or threaten to report you to the unemployment folks). These agencies are sometimes hungry for good quality people (pun intended).

Also consider sending copies of your resume to the QA Manager at the companies you apply to as well as to HR.

Remember to stress (in your cover letter and resume) your abilities to take on positions outside of "QM" as appropriate such as technical writer, doc. control, process engineer, sales engineer, tech. support/help desk, auditing, training coordinator, consultant, trainer, calibration tech., test tech., etc.

Perhaps a call to the local economic development folks would help -- you might be among the first to learn of a new company moving in or expanding. Those ED folks generally have contacts inside the new company and might get you in the door first. Never hurts to know lots of people -- and have them know you. I think Tom Peters once said the guy with the biggest Rolodex wins.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress and what seems to work/not work. No one on this board knows for sure when he/she might be next to walk a miles in your shoes.

When I left the defense sector in 2000 after 17 years there, it was primarily to expand my horizons. I have learned a lot in the construction & power industry, but not apparently enough to meet requirements of most employers in that sector. With a EE educational background, I was pretty clueless about ASME B&PV codes, ACI, AWS, and so on before leaving defense. Since I learned so much from leaving a pretty stable job, I don't consider the time a waste. For example, I can write and qualify a welding procedure. How many sparkies can say that?

I've been looking in all sectors both in & out of quality - including back in defense (the defense industry was good to me, TI paid for my BSEE). I've also got experience in professional development/training, configuration management, and technical writing as well as webspinning. I applied this week with Pepsi for a manufacturing supervisor position. I don't even drink soda pop. :)

I don't see my age as an issue with potential employers yet, but I haven't resorted to applying at the new Hooters they just built here - my obnoxious 19 year old son says they only hire college girls. I guess I could go back to grad school. :)

I've left quality before, but always seem to come back. I'd really love to get into biomed (my major was biomed EE), but it seems a priori experience is required to get in. Experience with mil stds isn't sufficient for the BME companies to see that FDA & GMP regs should be no problem to learn.

I am careful about working with a general temp agency as you mentioned since refusal of work can cause the cut off unemployment benefits. For that reason, I've been talking only with contract recruiters as they are more likely to come across with acceptable positions than the average temp agency.

In the meantime, I have an orientation to be a substitute teacher at a local school district this morning. This should be fun...:frust:

Hello All,
I've been luking here for months and commiserating
with Lucinda and energy, now its my turn.
Yesterday I got notice my last day of work will be Dec. 31.:bigwave:
Still I seem to be luckier than the others. I'm getting a Christmas
bonus and six months severence.
At my age (60), I'll probably wind up working at Walmart.

Eloise

Since we're on the subject;

I will be departing in April. This is sorta by my choice. My in-laws need someone to be there on a daily basis, and my wife volunteer us. That means we have to move to northern Michigan (not UP), which will require me to quit my current position.

Now, here is my thought..... perhaps the rest of you can consider this. Throughout our working lives, we have gained some experience that can still benefit us. Why not develop a class or two that you can take on the road? Most community colleges will gladly rent you a room and with some marketing, you might be able to make a living going on a pre-established circuit (just stay out of Michigan -- that's my turf)? That is what my plan is. If you want more information on how to start, send me an email and I will help you where I can.

Mike S. stated: "Perhaps consider signing-up with the best temp. agency in your area. Temp. jobs, aside from bringing in some money and getting you doing something, can be a foot in the door at a company and perhaps you will be in the right place at the right time when a really good Q job opens-up! Never know."

I did just that when I moved from Chicagoland 14 months ago. Landed a temporary job and have had about 10 face-to-face interviews, but no offers. You are right - you'll "Never know."

ereitz said:

Hello All,
I've been luking here for months and commiserating
with Lucinda and energy, now its my turn.
Yesterday I got notice my last day of work will be Dec. 31.:bigwave:
Still I seem to be luckier than the others. I'm getting a Christmas
bonus and six months severence.
At my age (60), I'll probably wind up working at Walmart.

Eloise

Eloise,

Obviously, not good news. But, 6 months of severance and a bonus is a lot more than others get with the same news. I like the Walmart thing. Unfortunately, I envisioned doing something like that when I retired. You know, bait money? All we can do is hang in there and keep looking.

Mike S.,

I intend to send resumes to all temporary agencies stating exactly what you recommend. Other opportunities/tasks. It is a way to demonstrate performance and at my previous **** it was the only way they hire these days. They go as long as 90 days before deciding if a full time offer will be made. You just have to make sure that they place you in a position where you wouldn't quit. It also extends your unemployment benefits if the need for that position expires.

Right now, I'm preparing my paperwork for tomorrow's hearing. Should I drink before I go? :vfunny: :smokin:

So, Energy, how'd it go with the unemployment folks yesterday? :confused: Hopefully they at least approved your claim; at best they found you a good job opening. If they are like some other UI offices I've seen and heard of, maybe you could offer to consult for them and get some type of decent QMS going in the UI office!

Mike S. said:

So, Energy, how'd it go with the unemployment folks yesterday? :confused: Hopefully they at least approved your claim; at best they found you a good job opening. If they are like some other UI offices I've seen and heard of, maybe you could offer to consult for them and get some type of decent QMS going in the UI office!

Mike S.

The company sent a letter rather than attend. Very brief. I didn't do the job I was hired to do. Period. Department was eliminated. Period. Of course, I had a few documents ready, but here's how it went:

"Were you aware of a performance issue?" I could have said, "Yes, but it wasn't me." Instead I said "No".

"Were you ever warned either verbally or written about your performance?"

"No"

"Did you perform to the best of your ability?"

"Yes"

"Very well. This will be approved. Enjoy the holidays and remember to keep looking for employment."

It was that simple. I signed a statement to that effect and the interview was over. Very informal.

On the job front. It's too early to count my chickens, but my long shot appears to be getting shorter. We'll know after New Years. I may be visiting the AS9100 threads more often. I read all the posts there today and there really isn't a lot of activity, compared to ISO 9000 threads. That's interesting because AS9100 RevA seems to tied to ISO9001:2000. The aircraft manufacturers mention both when you visit their websites. I wonder if AS9100 practioners have their panties in a bunch over "interaction of processes." :vfunny: Be talking to you. Thanks for asking.;)
:smokin:

Hey energy,

Sorry I missed this. I've been going crazy with work, kids in sports etc. I don't get here often enough anymore.

So sorry, and good luck. I agree with all those who said they didn't deserve you. I hope the other door opens.

Happy Holidays

Energy, I'm glad that the unemployment benefits were approved.

It didn't become an issue with my termination because the company didn't try to suggest that it was performance related. They simply responded that it was a "permanent layoff" on the umemployment enquiry letter. (ouch, that really hurt. Did they truly have to use the word "permanent"?) Severance was skimpy (one month salary and one month of paid medical and dental insurance) but they're still having to pay my unemployment benefits out of their account so it's a bit of a seabird around their neck.

Leanne and Eloise, sorry to hear of your job losses also. I wish ya'll luck.

Wouldn't it be great to get a reporter to write a story for Newsweek titled "Companies cut quality to save money" (meaning, laying off their quality staff=us!) where we all told our stories? Isn't that the most tasty evil revenge you can think of?:smokin:

In the first week while I consoled myself with my buddies Jack, Jose, and Johnny Red, coming up with revenge schemes was a comforting pasttime. Of course, I'm past that phase now...:rolleyes:

They pay document controllers in the mid $40's here and I would settle for that but I'm told "gee, you're overqualified for that. You wouldn't be happy in that job for long and you would leave us for more money somewhere else". Just can't win.

Lucinda,

I like your idea for an article. Why not contact some quality-related publications and ask them to do a report on it. You could provide them a few contacts right off the bat! Maybe get hired and get "revenge" at the same time. That is, if Newsweek or Time won't do it.

Here is something I saw that may be of interest to the unemployed. Here is the direct link: http://resumedoctor.com/ResourceCenter.htm#petpeevesurvey

Recruiter "Pet Peeve" Survey - Recently, ResumeDoctor.com undertook the immense project of conducting a survey of over 2,500 recruiters / headhunters throughout the US and Canada to find out their "Pet Peeves" with resumes. These recruiters stemmed from varied specialties and industries, (Engineering, Information Technology, Sales and Marketing, Executive, Biotech, Healthcare, Administrative, Finance, etc.). ResumeDoctor.com sought to find out what the recruiter’s likes and dislikes in a resume and what is going to get a resume read by them.

Here are the top twenty Results of the Survey. Click each item for a detailed discussion.

Burying important info in the resume
Gaps in employment
1st or 3rd Person - Resumes in either 1st or 3rd Person
No easy to follow summary
Pictures, Graphics or URL links no recruiter will call up
Resumes sent in .pdf, .zip files, faxed, web page resumes, mailed resumes and not sent as WORD Attachment
Font Choice - poor font choice or style
Objectives or Meaningless Introductions
Lying, misleading (especially in terms of education, dates and inflated titles)
Employer info not included and/or not telling what industry or product candidate worked in
Personal Info not relative to the Job
Unqualified Candidates - Candidates who apply to positions they are not qualified for
Paragraphs - Long Paragraphs ... not Bullet-points
Long Resumes - too long
Functional Resumes as opposed to writing a Chronological Resume
Poor formatting - boxes, templates, tables, use of header and footers, etc.
Contact Info - none or inaccurate contact info or unprofessional email addresses
Dates not included or inaccurate dates
Too Duty Oriented - reads like a job description and fails to explain what the job seeker’s accomplishments were and how they did so.
Spelling Errors, Typos and Poor Grammar

Seems like recruiters can be really picky right now -- I'll bet they weren't so picky 2 years ago! Good luck to all in 2003 for a better year with better employers!

Seems like I'm probably guilty of a few of those pet peeves!

But there's no pleasing everyone. I keep rehashing my resume to fit one's likes and then get told by someone else that I should do it another way! In fact, in order to get my last job, a Quality Manager position, the recruiter told me to "dumb down" my resume so that the company wouldn't be scared of me! What's a girl supposed to do?? Heck, I know that there isn't anything that I can't do and that I really should be a VP somewhere but my resume doesn't reflect it at all. If I get a foot in the door, promotions will follow. But neither does the resume show secretarial experience, which seems to be the only way for this gal to get the foot in the door.

Hope everyone has a safe and joyous New Year's Eve and a great New Year to follow!

the recruiter told me to "dumb down" my resume so that the company wouldn't be scared of me!


Just curious if the recruiter walked out of the room under his own power...can't imagine anyone saying that. :rolleyes:







And db, will that make you 'anearyooper' or a 'yooperwannabe'?
:cool: :D

And db, will that make you 'anearyooper' or a 'yooperwannabe'?

The wife says we have to remain "trolls" (living under the bridge), so it appears I will be living just south of heaven! But alas! As far as consulting goes, the pickin's pretty slim up there anyway.

Lucinda said:

Seems like I'm probably guilty of a few of those pet peeves!

But there's no pleasing everyone. I keep rehashing my resume to fit one's likes and then get told by someone else that I should do it another way!

Cinda,

For just $89.99, they'll do it for you and it still won't matter. I read all the tips and I'll consider them when "individualizing" the resume. It's all about luck. The dumb down idea is also mentioned in those tips. Not too technical. As I said before, these resume gurus are employed and can afford to tell you how, without the need or ability to prove it. Does everybody that lands a job call them or send them flowers because they used their resume? No! They get their cash, you keep on looking. :vfunny: Well, another year is started so let's see what it brings.:rolleyes: :smokin:

Lucinda said:

In fact, in order to get my last job, a Quality Manager position, the recruiter told me to "dumb down" my resume so that the company wouldn't be scared of me!
Sounds like the recruiter dumbed himself down! :bonk:

In the past 14 months, I have lost two jobs: both because the companies were running out of money and the quality department took the biggest hit.

While it is of little consolation to you right now, I was able to quickly find work both times. I am very pleased with my current situation.

With time and perspective, you may view this as an opportunity to challenge yourself to find the exact work that interests you, in a company that respects your skills and knowledge.

Chin up and press on. For now, enjoy the time with your family and friends.

Davey.

How's this for a hoot?.....I was contacted by a recruiter for a Corporate Writer position!:eek: Bet you guys didn't know that I've written tons of marketing materials, customer response letters, training programs, etc. When I grow up I want to be a travel writer :)

The position would have been ideal except that it was on contract for 6 months before going permanent and the commute wouldn't have been pretty. I asked the recruiter if it were possible to do some telecommuting but she said no, it would have to be done at the corporate office everyday. So I took a pass. Bummer. Guess it means that I'm not totally desperate yet. Still looking for the stars to be in perfect alignment.

BTW, there are some QA positions being advertised in this area for anyone willing to relocate.....energy? Ready to move somewhere warmer?

Lucinda said:

BTW, there are some QA positions being advertised in this area for anyone willing to relocate.....energy? Ready to move somewhere warmer?

Cinda,

Too late for me. I have received some tips from people requiring pulling up stakes in pursuit of Q employment. Ah, if I were only 10/15 years younger. Maybe. Not now. I will take something, in due time. Temporary, PT, etc..In 2 years, I'm ready to pack it in. Funny, I intended to work well into retirement to keep active. I never thought it would be to survive. :vfunny:
Don't mind me. It's one of those days. Only been a month, just seems longer. Later, Y'all.

RE: dumbing down

Oh yeah, that advice has come from more than one person. That particular recruiter said that my resume made me sound like I would be about $10K more expensive than the job was paying. So to water it down some in order to be considered. Others have commented that not many people understand quality management and so to lose the references to ISO. Also, that I should play up my general skills (attention to detail, critical analysis, decisiveness, mult-tasking, etc.) that exist outside of the specific jobs I've held.

It's a new year and I'm still at the crossroads. I'll leave quality if I must, but I'm still hoping to continue in the field. So why the heck should I eliminate references that those in quality would recognize? Seems like the only point in that would be if I wanted to do something different... ..

On top of my duties here I get the great honor of the Human Resources dept. I recruit, interview and hire. The "dumb down" thing. I have to tell you guys that it is the truth. I'm all for hiring the most capable person. But the supervisors and managers of the dept aren't. There is always the fear that the person they hire may take their job someday. It's reality. I notice when a pretty female comes in to interview that the female supervisor finds about twenty petty things wrong with her. For instance, I have a manager here. One of those people who believe in herself "ALOT" if you know what I mean. I've noticed that all the women in her dept. are considerably older, only have a high school education, and there husband usually make substantial livings and they work because they want to.

It is an evil world!!!!!

Angela

That is sad, but I'm sure it is true in many places. Of course, some companies are run such that they breed fear and distrust making it unlikely that Managers will hire anyone who could potentially take their jobs. Of course, there is no good reason to hire a Ph.D. if the job is easily done by a HS grad -- in the end it is a waste of money and would bore the Ph.D. to tears -- a lose-lose situation.

I always looked at it like this (given a decent company): I try to hire AT LEAST one person who could replace me and train them to be my replacement. It makes my job easier, helps the company, gives them something to reach for/aspire to, and makes it more likely I can get a promotion and move-up if I'm not indespensible where I am. The company likes it, the employee likes it, and I like it.

Angela said:
I notice when a pretty female comes in to interview that the female supervisor finds about twenty petty things wrong with her. For instance, I have a manager here. One of those people who believe in herself "ALOT" if you know what I mean. I've noticed that all the women in her dept. are considerably older, only have a high school education, and there husband usually make substantial livings and they work because they want to.

Angela

Oh I just had to laugh because you are spot on with that one! Whenever women come in for interviews all the other women look at her to see if she's a "threat"! There's always jealousy if she's attractive. And I'm no exception, I do it too even though I know it's silly and petty.

So not only do you have to "dumb down" the resume, you have to "dumb down" your looks too! Actually, that was a factor in my going from blonde to brunette years ago, while others my age were doing the reverse!

It's a fine line in dumbing down, whether it's the resume or the "package". :vfunny:

Lucinda said:

Oh I just had to laugh because you are spot on with that one! Whenever women come in for interviews all the other women look at her to see if she's a "threat"! There's always jealousy if she's attractive. And I'm no exception, I do it too even though I know it's silly and petty.

---X---

Actually it can be a bit aggrivating when they join forces too...

I cannot resist telling you about my very first summer job, when I was still in school: As a plumber at the local hospital, which is a world clearly dominated by women.

Guess if they ganged up on me? A green young lad all on his own? I soon lost count of how many times my face went bright red :o :vfunny: Did they ever have an attitude... I haven't experienced such dirty language ever since, not even in the military.

If I treated a woman like that I'd be prosecuted...:ko:


/Claes

I completely agree with you Mike. It is wise to have someone who is trainable to your position. Let's be honest, when you deal with ISO/QSor TS who wants your job anyways. If they do, then they have no idea what they are getting into. HAHA!

Lucinda, I figured you would know what I meant. It can be difficult as a woman in the business world anyways. Even more so when you are a mother. Sometimes those comments like "Don't worry your pretty little head over it" can be greatly annoying. It is a great tragedy that you have to "dumb down" or change your hair color to find a job or receive "respect" in your field. Hopefully you will come across an interview with someone who shares these thoughts and realizes that you are the individual for the position. You are right if you get your foot in the door the promotions will come. I had to take a secretary position with this company, at first. Took me approximately two months to receive my first promotion. I have more than tripled my pay in the past seven years. It took awhile for me to receive any respect from certain employees in the company. I was very young when I started here. I feel that I am often judged by fellow female employees by whether my hair is prettier or if I am anatomically bigger then them. I laugh now because I know that my hair, makeup or anything else had nothing to do with my accomplishments.

Angela

Working in the medical field in a hospital, as Claes found out, is a field dominated by women in most areas. My wife worked at a hospital and said she never saw such back-stabbing and bickering in her life. She'd much rather work with men than women.

I've hired 2 women for the position as my "#1" and trained them both to the the annointed one to take my place. My wife warned me not to hire women as they are too hard to get along with in the business world! The first was a nice-looking blonde (not why I hired her) and in the beginning she tried to use her charms to get out of some of the less than fun jobs (taking boxes to the storage area, cleaning the lab, etc.) but I told her no dice, everyone in here, man and woman alike, is treated equally. And that's what happened, which impressed the guys as they were starry-eyed and admitted they might not have the willpower to be so strict. She soon caught on and learned to respect that decision but obviously wasn't used to that concept of her looks not getting her out of some things (she admitted it). There were some jealousy issues with other women in the plant, and some problems with her dating guys at work, but we got thru them.

The second, another nice-looking young lady, was told up-front, you will not be harassed or discriminated against at all, nor will you be given preferential treatment due to being female. She later admitted no one had ever told her that, or treated her that way, and she respected it and decided right away this was a great place to work. Some of the same jealousy and dating issues again arose, but again we got thru them.

Both did nice work, but in the end circumstances unrelated to ability resulted in them not working with me any longer. Nevertheless, I'd still hire a capable woman again, but I do admit there is always a little tiny fear wondering if things don't work out if I might get accused of sexual harassment. I've heard the horror stories. Sometimes the job required us to be alone, after hours in the lab, or on a daytrip, or in the storage room, etc. Luckily, I've never had anyone make any claims, but then I never gave any reason, either.

Lucinda, I'd hire you in a heartbeat if I could. Trouble is, you're far away, and we're not hiring now! Same goes for Energy. Dumbing down definitely NOT desired.

Mike;

Glad to hear that you are capable of working with either sex in an equal manner. I do understand your fears and have witnessed what can happen when certain working relationships go wrong. I do believe that most women are not like that. Most women want to work in an environment where they receive respect and are rewarded as deserved.

Angela

I am not a woman, but have had the privilege of both working for women and having women work for me, and here is my take. I have had rock-solid bosses and employees of both genders. I’ve seen women that have tried to use their gender to their advantage. I’ve seen men do similar things. Some folks use their “difference” as a tool. However, I’ve found that folks who do that tend to be slackers in other areas as well. A rock solid employee is rock solid regardless of gender, race, physical impairment, or what ever. A shaky employee will always be shaky (unless they decide to change). I try not to consider the individual, I try to consider what the individual brings to the table. What is their contribution?

Mike, I have to agree with your wife: I would rather work with men than women too. I feel like a traitor to my gender, and don't mean to disparage the women here at the Cove (who have all behaved professionally and courteously and have been very helpful).

But out in the big world it's the women in the office who create drama and personal intrique. It's like an extension of Jr. High School for some.

If I were doing the hiring and had a choice between two candidates, I would most likely hire the man. In fact, when I was interviewing for an administrative assistant last year, I did hire a man!

Hmmm. Perhaps I should change the name on my resume to just initials...;)

At any rate, I'm going to take another crack at the resume and make it less scary. How about a big Objective statement that says:" Not seeking the top dog job, or aspiring to someday move into the top dog job, but simply looking for the opportunity to provide the very highest level of support to the top dog so he/she can look like a big hero" ?:vfunny:

Even more so when you are a mother.

Not to belittle the situation but try it as a single father. I have a 21 month old and get real funny looks when I have to move a meeting up in order keep the babysitters happy!!!!!

Not to mention missing the closing meeting of an audit due to sickness at the daycare.
:bonk:

Randy

I did not mean to leave men out. I know that it is becoming more common for single men to be raising children. That had to sound bias of me to say "only mothers". I apologize.

Angela

That had to sound bias of me to say "only mothers".

I didn't take it that way. All I was saying was that as a manager and a single parent it has opened my eyes to some of the issues women have had for years. It's not that I didn't understand or was blind, but what's that old saying about walking in someone elses shoes??? It has been a good object lesson.
:truce:

Let me get this straight. You are employed, a single father raising a small child, and you understand dilemma's that women have had for years. How is it possible that you are not married? HAHA

Angela

I said I understood this one issue. And I'm sure my ex could give you many reasons why I'm not married!!!!!:biglaugh:
:biglaugh:

Lucinda said:

Mike, I have to agree with your wife: I would rather work with men than women too. I feel like a traitor to my gender, and don't mean to disparage the women here at the Cove (who have all behaved professionally and courteously and have been very helpful).
---X---

Well, that experience at the hospital did scare the living daylights out of me, that much I admit. However, I did not stay scared. Since then I've had the pleasure of working together with several very capable and nice women that were the very opposite to the ones I met at the hospital.

/Claes

Lucinda said:

Mike, I have to agree with your wife: I would rather work with men than women too. I feel like a traitor to my gender, and don't mean to disparage the women here at the Cove (who have all behaved professionally and courteously and have been very helpful).



Lucinda,

Don't feel like a traitor. We can be VERY difficult! It is in our nature, even for those of us who recognize this shortcoming.

The owner of my company asked me one day why I liked working out in the shop with all the guys. I told him I can't work with my own kind....we are WAY to catty for my own good. I thought he would fall off his chair in hysterics.



Randy,
You are a part of a growing population. My husband was a single father of 2 with full custody for 10 years. Not any easy road for either gender. Keep up the good work!


Regards,
CarolX

I have a female friend who is a respected division manager and researcher with an engineering Ph.D. She tells me every upper management team should have ONE female because females are more devious and sneeky than most men and sometimes these qualities are needed, but more than one can cause problems. Hey, don't shoot, I'm just the reporter here...

:biglaugh:

Cinda,

Just when I thought I was over you!:biglaugh: I'm searching for your other one. ;) :smokin:

I'm stuffing the ballot box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





You know Lucinda, your avitar sure wouldn't look as nice with energy's face in the mask...yep, I REALLY am looking at the mask.
Really:D

This is a short excerpt from an article in the papers yesterday. My previous place of employment was Tenergy Water, LLC and the CEO who did the dirty deed is Michael Tomasso. It's things like this that make it a nice day. What does not appear in this article, because it was so long, is that the investigation is ongoing. I wish I knew more so I could help.......... the investigators!

Associated Press

March 11, 2003

HARTFORD, Conn. -- A former top aide to Gov. John G. Rowland pleaded guilty in federal court Monday to accepting payoffs from people doing business with the state.

Lawrence Alibozek, who served as Rowland's deputy chief of staff from October 1997 to July 1999, admitted to agreeing "with other persons to accept cash, gold and other things of value" in return for helping people get deals with the state, including the Department of Public Works, federal prosecutors said.

Federal authorities did not name the other persons.

A senior member of the Rowland administration, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that the governor's office received two federal grand jury subpoenas, in November and December, seeking information related to Alibozek and Rowland's former co-chief of staff, Peter Ellef. (This guy was going to be my new boss before they changed their mind about hiring him)

Federal investigators also sought information relating to the Tomasso Group, a New Britain-based contracting company, and related entities including Tomasso Brothers Inc., TBI Construction Co., Tunxis Management Co., Tunxis Plantation Country Club in Farmington, and Tenergy Water LLC. :(

I always wanted to see the company on the map. &#@% em!:ko: :smokin:

Where ???

energy:

Isn't it strange how stuff works out? I know looking for a job stinks, but imagine being involved in something like that. Just being in the company, without direct involvement in the illegalities, would be really awful, I would imagine.

If things go the way it looks like it might for Tenergy, putting the fact that you were fired by them on your resume might be a great advantage!!

Anyhow, great luck on your job hunt!!

Craig

M Greenaway said:

Where ???

M,

Assuming you are asking me "Where" on the map I would like to see them, on the map showing the only water treatment company registered to ISO. I know of one that flies the banner, but it is only for a sub-component of a system and they are touting registration for the Company without the distinction. All their international potential customers have been asking "when". Maybe with me gone, they can finally get it done. After all, with their reputation such as it is, they can buy it! What's the difference? :eek: :ko: :smokin:

energy said:

M,

Assuming you are asking me "Where" on the map I would like to see them, on the map showing the only water treatment company registered to ISO. I know of one that flies the banner, but it is only for a sub-component of a system and they are touting registration for the Company without the distinction. All their international potential customers have been asking "when". Maybe with me gone, they can finally get it done. After all, with their reputation such as it is, they can buy it! What's the difference? :eek: :ko: :smokin:

Energy, I am not sure if they still are looking at using the registrar that you had been in contact with, but take my word for it, there is no way possible they could buy it from them, that I am sure of.

ISO Guy,

That's a fact. Unfortunately, there are companies that may provide such a service. I sent that intended registrar an e-mail explaining the situation, but I never heard a thing back. I also inquired about their suitability for AS9001?, but subsequently saw they weren't listed on Boeing's site as approved for that. They are approved for QS, ISO, etc. My long shot at employment is striving for AS. It would have been nice to land that job and bring them in for another interview. Oh well. The job is first. Maybe we'll meet, yet!;) :smokin:

Add in : Today's paper-Front page news. Just a little excerpt:
The federal Grand Jury subpoenas also seek records relating to the Tomasso Group, and related entities which include Tomasso Brothers Inc., TBI Construction Co., Tunxis Plantation Country Club in Farmington and Tenergy Water, LLC. :vfunny: I bet those records never appeared in our document control system.

When I got the hammer, which was early December, that's when the first hint of improprieties surfaced. Maybe they needed my salary and the 15K scheduled for the Registrar to help pay for their attorneys. ;) I just hope they get what they deserve. I mean, what they paid for!:mad: :smokin:

Hey Hey Hey!!

You can count me in the ranks of the Employed starting next week!!!

Have to pass the drug test and background check so unless they find out about that axe murder a few years ago...:vfunny:

That's all I want to say about the job until I actually become totally official (don't want to jinx it!), but I signed paperwork today and it should be a done deal!

Expect lots and lots of questions from me in the near future because I'm embarking on something I've not had great exposure to in the past: HSE ! Yep, just when you thought you had me all trained in quality I throw you another curveball !:vfunny:

(special thanks to Randy and Skullsike for getting me this far....;) )

Hang in there energy, your turn is next!

That's great news there old buddy;) You deserve the credit because you did it.

BTW, Judi is in Ft Smith looking at a house that was suggested by that company you guys did the deal with. The crazy thing about it, it was the same realtor that Judi's cousin works for. Small world, who could figure on that coincidence:vfunny:

Lucinda

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!

Craig

Cinda,

Congratulations. You go, Girl. Been a haul. Let's hope I can post something like it, soon. I'm real close. Like, you I don't want to jinx it!;) :ko: :smokin:

Congratulations, Lucinda!!!!!!

And Good Luck! :) :cool: :D

Bill

Lucinda said:
---X---
Hey Hey Hey!!

You can count me in the ranks of the Employed starting next week!!!
---X---

Congratulations, Cinda! :agree::D That's great news. Good luck with the new job, whatever it is.

/Claes

Way to go Lucinda and Energy(soon!!). We need your TAX dollars.

gpainter said:

Way to go Lucinda and Energy(soon!!). We need your TAX dollars.

Oh No, the jinx is in! Never count the chickens before........
:( If it doesn't happen, you did it!:biglaugh: :ko: :smokin:

Great news, Lucinda! Congrats!

As I started this thread with my tales of woe, it's only fitting that I update the current state of affairs. I wanted to post about never burning those bridges when you move on to a new place of employment as an example of doing the right thing. Well, it seldom works. In spite of assurances that all was forgiven, .....you can finish the sentence. So, I'm moving on in these late years to another industry. They like what they see and offered me full time employment. I'm taking it. I'm too old to hang on any longer. I hope to bring some of those disciplines to an industry that has none. They are good at making money and ISO is the farthest thing from their minds. Trust me, I won't tamper with the key to their success. Let's move on. ;) :ko: :smokin:

Energy,

Sounds exciting! I am still unemployed and wish there was something different out there for me that would make the same amount of money!

Douglas E. Purdy said:

Energy,

Sounds exciting! I am still unemployed and wish there was something different out there for me that would make the same amount of money!

Doug,

Been lurking? Don't blame you. The money is not the same. In fact, it's considerably less. Can we make it? Sure. Sometimes, you can forget the money if you remember why you were unhappy. Would I want more? Absolutely. Do I need more? Not really. Less expensive gifts for the family on those special occasions. Looking at what are considered bargains with a discerning eye. Know what? Family don't care. Nobody cares. A personal evaluation of where you stand in relation to the average income? Very fleeting. There are trade-offs. Stay with it, young man. You're options are there. Good luck!

energy,

Glad that you've found somewhere to hang your hat and that they realize what a prize they have! Quality skills are useful in every job, whether quality is in the job title or not. it must be somewhat of a relief to you to not have to deal with the BS of ISO anymore! :)

I started on the payroll at my new job today and it's going to work out great. My title is Safety Specialist and there is plenty for me to learn and do. This job has some travel involved so maybe I'll get around to meeting people from the Cove. In fact, I'm spending next week in Denver.

Again, really glad to hear that you've taken a new position!:bigwave:

Heeeeeeeeey LUCINNNNNDAAAAAAAA!!!!

If your travelin', come by San Diego (actually La Jolla, which ain't exactly the low rent district) in May and I'll spring for the Chinese dinner at P.F. Chang's.

Energy

Congrats and Good Luck!!!!!

Bill

energy

That's fantastic!!!!!

Craig

Lucinda, your ISO experience will be a great asset in the Safety arena. They are working on a Safety standard, I believe OHSAS 18001.

Energy, see no jinx :D

energy said:
I'm moving on to another industry. They like what they see and offered me full time employment. I'm taking it.

I hope to bring some of those disciplines to an industry that has none.

Let's move on. ;) :ko: :smokin:

energy,

Hearty Congratulations and Wish you all the best !!

Did I mention that it is 3.5 miles from my house?:eek: :ko: :smokin:

Congrats Energy and Lucinda. I hope you are both happy with your new jobs!!!:)

energy,

Does this mean we will see less of you here? (I ask with tear in eye) Best of luck.

Sirlard said:

energy,

Does this mean we will see less of you here? (I ask with tear in eye) Best of luck.

Unfortunately for some, no. I have Internet access and I continue to visit whenever I get the urge to purge! ;) I will be posting my place of employment link soon in the member's profile section soon. I am working with a consultant on our web site and it's almost ready for action. You'll be very surprised at what I'm doing. You never know what the future brings. :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

Does this mean we will see less of you here? (I ask with tear in eye) Best of luck.

Unfortunately for some, no.

What it means, is that if he is now left the "Quality" field, he will suddenly become stupid, and forget all the lessons he tried to teach others. Sorry energy, but I've seen it enough to know it is a "universal truth".

:eek: :biglaugh:

db said:

What it means, is that if he is now left the "Quality" field, he will suddenly become stupid, and forget all the lessons he tried to teach others. Sorry energy, but I've seen it enough to know it is a "universal truth".

:biglaugh:

db,

Ya think? I still have boxes of material in the garage and a lots of stuff on zip files, floppys and on a CD. That stuff is always available to anyone who asks. Just use the e-mail in my member profile and I would be glad to assist. You're right, though. I don't spend a lot in the Documents, CA/PA or the ISO threads anymore. First because I wasn't working and would be speaking in past tense. Now, it would be LOI! (Lack of Interest?) :vfunny: I never thought it would end up this way. As a young man from across the pond expressed a long time ago. "Just an incompetent Quality Manager with a disdain for the Quality Profession". Time has a way of proving some observations correct!:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

;)

So you landed the job energy? Great!:D I was busy getting audited, so I missed that post.

I suppose congratulations are in order now? You're not afraid we'll jinx you anymore?

Congratulations man...

/Claes

Energy,

Though I have been "lean" in the past months I have been keeping up. Give it ****!!!!!!!!!!!1

I just hope we don't go down to 2 oddballs here, keep rocking!:bigwave:

M Greenaway said:

;)

I thought you might like that. Never get old, keep your guard up and always surround yourself with a legion of supporters. To stick to principles may be hazardous to your financial health!;) :smokin:

Congratulations, energy!

Sounds like a win-win-win situation.

A win for you.

A win - one would imagine - for your new employer.

And a win for the quality community. :vfunny:

Tom Harris said:

Congratulations, energy!

Sounds like a win-win-win situation.

A win for you.

A win - one would imagine - for your new employer.

And a win for the quality community. :vfunny:

I'm sure I have your best wishes, Tom. I'll miss the Quality Community and the likes of you. :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

energy said:

You're right, though. I don't spend a lot in the Documents, CA/PA or the ISO threads anymore. First because I wasn't working and would be speaking in past tense.
So??? It is not like the quality world's body of knowledge has changed considerably in the last 6 months -- or 6 years for that matter. Your experiences and knowledge is still quite valid and up-to-date IMO. Most of the answers and advice given here are based on past (not current) experiences and "learnings" of the members anyway. We're not talking state-of-the-art microprocessor architecture (that changes every few months) here. Though you did not ask for it I'll give you my advice FWIW: Stick with the Q stuff on the side here even if you don't use it much right now on the job. Ya never know when it might come in handy for you -- and it will help those w/ questions here. JMO.:smokin:

True Mike….having started in 1966 as an Inspector and, up to recently, worked in the Q field ever since, it is impossible to just throw away the disciplines acquired. However, I joined the Cove to learn and have an appreciation for those members on top of their game. Inquiries are handled very well without me trying to improve on their responses. I have received private e-mails from newer members asking me to critique documentation because they chose not to post them. That’s O.K. I would continue to do that. Any reference materials that I possess I would willingly share.

Now, having taken a trip down memory lane, I have used some of those acquired disciplines and created Checklists, QA Surveys, Contracts and another 20 or so documents for this business that I’m about to enter. It’s nice to see them being used everyday in real life. Of course, approval is very informal. No B.S. Because I was doing this Part-Time and pleasing the owners, it created a position that they choose not to be without. In other words, they had no idea what the old man could do. We had a relationship before, not work related, and it is an eye opener for them and me to see what we all actually do (did) for a living. So now we have a common cause. Make money and do well. Isn’t that what business is all about? Only when you throw mandated Quality requirements into the mix does it become murky. This business thrives on Customer Satisfaction, word of mouth references and solid advertising. Will it last and continue to provide enough profit to support the overhead and the personnel? Let’s hope so. Thanks for the pep talk! ;) :ko: :smokin:

energy,

Mike S. was right about staying with quality on the side. The secret to doing that is to set up a Quality Management System at home. Document the household activities. Make sure you write work instructions for your wife. Audit those activities on a regular schedule. Write CAR’s for the nonconformities you find in the processes. You may even consider trying to convince the divorce lawyer to act as a registrar. No need to thank me for this advise, glad to help.

Sirlard said:

energy,

Mike S. was right about staying with quality on the side. The secret to doing that is to set up a Quality Management System at home. Document the household activities. Make sure you write work instructions for your wife. Audit those activities on a regular schedule. Write CAR’s for the nonconformities you find in the processes. You may even consider trying to convince the divorce lawyer to act as a registrar. No need to thank me for this advise, glad to help.

This idea is already in effect. However, it's the wife who issues the directives. Too late for a divorce. 11-27-65. The temperature will reach 80 degrees here today and that means that all plans go out the window. Here's the plan for today: Go home right after this. Remove the tool box from the pickup. Load my little John Boat and tackle. Off to the lake for casting practice. Oh what a great life. May as well take advantage before we begin full time!
:p :ko: :smokin:

Congrats energy. The quality field will not be the same without you.

Now, you said... You'll be very surprised at what I'm doing. You never know what the future brings.


please tell us it has nothing to do with porn....:D :eek:

Ken K said:

Congrats energy. The quality field will not be the same without you.

Now, you said...


please tell us it has nothing to do with porn....:D :eek:

Like porn, it's a beautiful thing!:eek:

It would be if I could open it.............:smokin:




Whew...

I couldn't imagine sitting down with a bowl of popcorn and watching Debi Does ISO9001!:rolleyes:

Seeing some of the parts coming from "certified" companies sure makes me believe that "Debbie Does 9k2k" and "3rd party registration" is the same thing. It has been rumored that a few years ago a certain company in the Detroit area was registered to QS by having Stanley Cup Final Tickets (against Philidelphia) ready for the auditors. I don't have definitive proof, but 2 close sources have confirmed it!

Before the Red Wing jokes start, I have it from Bahgdad Bob that the Wings did, in fact, sweep the Ducks and have sent the California Infidels packing!!!! And no, Bahgdad Bob was not a source mentioned in the first paragraph!:biglaugh:

Randy, I really take issue with your generalization about 3rd-party certification. You should know very well that in any aspect of life you have good professionals, trash, and everything in between

Also, I am surprised about your continual criticism to 3rd part auditing. Back in December you were advocating the position that Registrars should not be punished when found in frauds and scams

That is what you wrote"

" . . The first registrar disciplined for misconduct will be opened up for lawsuit after lawsuit from their clients. All registrations will be questionable and it will dominoe from there. I, for one, don't want to see it. . . .
I guess all we can do is trust we made the correct choice and that the company we have gone with will have the intestinal fortitude to be up front with any issues.

" . . .Thanks for the info. I still think it's one of those "If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question" thing and way too political for me. I don't believe we'll ever see it change, it's just too big anymore and the ramifications would run too deep . ."


So, if you are not for the crackdown of bad registrars, why do you post messages like these? What is your point inferring that a company bribed their auditors?

You are correct when you state that I generalized. I know the names of the auditors and the company they work for, but I'm not going to name either (cover my behind).

As for my thoughts on the Registration bodies well, they only know what they see, right? If the auditors fake the audit how does the registration body know? I feel it's similar to the bar being sued because you drank too much and crashed your car. Someone has to take responsibility. So I'll stick to my guns there.

You ask:
What is your point inferring that a company bribed their auditors?
I'm not inferring anything, it's what I was told by the company's ex-QS Coordinator and backed up by the Q-Manager.

Listen Sidney, I've gone through 3 different registrars and I interviewed 4 more before I arrived at who we currently use. You're right as with anything there's good and bad, I know this. There are many companies out there that can't pass a 2nd party audit but have an ISO/QS registration. You know that as well as I do.
The auditors need to be monitored and the auditees should not be responsible to pay for it. Interpretations to the standard :vfunny: should be standardized and there should be no need for a web site like this:biglaugh: That's a perfect world. I've seen the pros and cons on both sides but there should be some type of proficiency test the auditors must pass. That's what I'm referring to.

Don't take it personnal, it was never intended to be a slam to any one (I'd have named them if it was) and I'm not slamming the auditing profession. A few bad ones give the whole lot a bad name, I know.
The individuals we work with now have been a huge help in our development. They are constructive with their findings and not focused on us being certified. Compliance and a solid understanding of the "system" is what they look at. I'd be hard pressed to replace them.

I appologize if I offended you Sidney, I was not trying to fit anyone here in the cove into the situation I described.
:agree: :truce:

Last Friday, April 25th, I suffered the unfortunate demise that it seems a number of others on this forum have suffered. The company that I was working for terminated their quest for ISO 9001:2000 certification and so my position as ISO Coordinator was eliminated.

This seems to be a situation that is becoming more common all the time.

The company was being required to seek registration by one of their customers and was not seeking registration for any other reason. It’s a small company of approximately 50 people in the business of printing pressure sensitive labels and small cartons for consumer products. The business is doing very well and they are a good company to work for. They were on a drop-dead date to become registered and hired me for that explicit purpose. We were on target to meet the date and were ready to schedule the certification audit. They had been renegotiating their contract with the customer and managed to negotiate out of the contract the requirement for certification. This was accomplished by price concessions. I have now been involved in several scenarios like this and have knowledge of quite a few others. It’s becoming a little demoralizing. I find it ironic that a customer finds ISO certification so valuable that they require it from a customer, but if concessions are offered in lieu of registration, ISO certification is not that important anymore. I have been told by an ISO Coordinator for a company that supplies to General Motors that General Motors is easing the certification requirements and may soon not require them at all.

With that said, I am now seeking employment.

I have a broad background in manufacturing; customer service, sales, production supervision, technical service, etc. I live in the Greater Cincinnati, Ohio area (southwest Ohio, southeast Indiana, northern Kentucky).

If any of you are aware or should become aware of an employment opportunity I would appreciate it if you would pass it on. I would also appreciate any tips that you might have.

Thank you and best wishes!

Mike,

Your post is very true, anybody married over 20 years will agree with you. The women are sneaky and know exactly what they are doing. Also add that they are proud of this fact.

Also true is the notion that you don't need 2 women on any team. As they already have the propensity for "alternate" methods they will undoubtably end up with one of them having to run away due to the knife in the back.

That said, I truly believe that teams should always include women, they may go off at home (haha) but in a proffesional setting they can really help balance the blustering and positioning that men do at meetings.

Al...

Rjack said:

Last Friday, April 25th, I suffered the unfortunate demise that it seems a number of others on this forum have suffered. The company that I was working for terminated their quest for ISO 9001:2000 certification and so my position as ISO Coordinator was eliminated.
This seems to be a situation that is becoming more common all the time.


RJ,

As I started this thread before Christmas, I feel your pain. I have been told by a Head Hunter to drop the emphasis on ISO for exactly the reasons you mentioned. More and more companies do not care about ISO. He said, mention ISO experience but tone it down. Made no difference in my case, because I know that it is age bias. Nobody hires old. (60). Higher medical premiums, uncertainty as to health and longevity, let alone the typical thoughts of "younger and cheaper". They would have been surprised how much cheaper I would have been. So, I start my new job Monday and, while it's not my first choice, it will do. Good Luck. :D :smokin:

Yes, I was told to de-emphasize ISO also. And it took me awhile to get my new job, but I was picky about what I wanted so I held out for it.

The thing is to sell yourself on your skills that exist outside of a particular ISO standard. I went from working with ISO 14001 at one job to being hired to develop an ISO 9001 program at another, to now working with the HSE dept at yet another! It's not so much about knowing one standard or another, it's more about the "mind set" that comes from working with the management standards that will serve you well.

Make sure you post your resume on Monster and Careerbuilder, and if you email me I'll send you the contact information for a recruiter in Michigan who specializes in quality folk.

Best of luck to you Rjack!

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Mike,

Your post is very true, anybody married over 20 years will agree with you. The women are sneaky and know exactly what they are doing. Also add that they are proud of this fact.

Also true is the notion that you don't need 2 women on any team. As they already have the propensity for "alternate" methods they will undoubtably end up with one of them having to run away due to the knife in the back.

That said, I truly believe that teams should always include women, they may go off at home (haha) but in a proffesional setting they can really help balance the blustering and positioning that men do at meetings.

Al...

LOL... :biglaugh: Now that you know our secret, we'll have to kill you... :bonk:

:bigwave:

I neglected to post an update. I guess subconsciously I feared that JINX factor....

I started working again in mid-April, but I had to move to Indy from Texas for the job. DH is still in TX & has an employment contract though 12/2004. I'm again an individual contributor & no longer in the ranks of management (there are pros & cons.) I am STILL in QUALITY.

For all you who have already posted about working again, congrats. To all those still looking, I wish you a speedy offer.

I am thankful to not be substitute teaching anymore :frust:. Peggy Hill, I am not!

Do I get to choose the method!!!!!:eek:

Leanne,

Welcome to Indiana.

My daughter just started working in Indy with a "small" chemical/drug company (Lilly).

Hope you find your new job both rewarding and challenging.:bigwave:

Nice to see some more Hoosiers!!!

Originally posted by Al Dyer
Do I get to choose the method!!!!!

NO!!!

Originally posted by ddhartma
Leanne,

Welcome to Indiana.

My daughter just started working in Indy with a "small" chemical/drug company (Lilly).

Hope you find your new job both rewarding and challenging.

Thanks. It is so far...And, the best part is that all my 17 years of prior service with the same company was bridged so I did not start from scratch so to speak...It was almost like a long leave of absence...that started back up in another state...

Originally posted by gpainter
Nice to see some more Hoosiers!!!

I don't think residing here for 6 weeks qualifies me to be a Hoosier...when I'm Texan to the bone :bigwave:

Leanne stated,

I don't think residing here for 6 weeks qualifies me to be a Hoosier...when I'm Texan to the bone

It begins slowly; kinda seeps into your pores; has a tendency to settle into your heart; and one day you wake up, look into the mirror and realize "My God I AM a Hoosier!":eek:

We can even convert Texans. Afterall, this IS where cool was born (home of James Dean).:smokin:

Hi All,

I did not know where to put this little notice so I placed it here because people have talked about not being appreciated or that work has a QA department for the sole purpose of having a certificate etc. I too have been frustrated in my job because people do not always listen, are afraid of change or see QA as a bureaucracy etc and I have been looking eslwhere for work but decided...better the devil you know.
Anyway, this morning I was called to the bosses office and he closed the door (we never close doors). I thought, here it comes, I'm gone - I'll be asking energy for training material on roof construction. He sat me down and explained that the company had looked at every position in the company and identified the top thirty positions required to maintain business integrity and growth (I was ready to walk). He further stated that the 'board' had approved a financial incentive to keep these people (never been done before in the history of the company). YES, I WAS ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES :biglaugh: . He was rewarding me for my effort and endorsing the QA system at the same time. After I finished kissing him and dancing on his desk, I asked why then had the QA system and I been so degraded over the past two years? (reduced from three people to one, fighting to get management to implement 9K2K and continually changing bosses etc). He simply stated that they did not realise what they had until management sat down and analysed what QA meant to the company (he did not espouse on this - and I was too excited to ask).
We have been losing a lot of people lately (and it has not been due to money) so I went back to him later in the morning and said that if management had helped a little by giving people a pat on the back and letting them KNOW of their value then maybe they would not leave etc and it would not have been necessary to give people monetary incentives (I quickly pointed out that it was too late to recscind :vfunny: ).
Anyway, I need to get off my soap box. But this is one for the good guys (namely QA and I) but I wish that some managers would use their common sense and some basic supervisory skills when dealing with people. Happy people are better workers because they feel more content. All managers should have to read and support 'Maslows'

Greg B

Wow! Congratuations, Greg. Sounds like one for the record books!

Congrats Greg, it's always nice to get the pat on the back.
Well done. :thedeal: :smokin:

Way to go, Greg! I'm happy for 'ya.

I know how great it feels, because I happened to me a couple times in past jobs, and it was great. The recognition felt as good as the money, didn't it? I very seriously doubt that would happen in my current job as the owners just have no clue as to how such things work -- very old school "just be happy you even have a job" types who pinch pennies until Lincoln screams and push the limits of employment law (if for their benefit). But maybe the future holds something better. Your story is inspiring as it shows that at least some people "get it". Have a beer on me! :agree:

I recently had an interview for a position as yet to be defined. A little bit of Purchasing and Quality whatever. After a tour of the most cluttered, dark, dank, musty unkempt facility I had ever been in, we proceeded to the “Conference Room” for the meat and potatoes part of the hiring process. Besides the customary “Tell me a little bit about yourself”, here’s a couple of the questions:

“What skills would you bring to MY organization?“ Uh, he’s reading my resume.

The immediate answer would have been “What organization?” Or, “I’m good with a broom and dust pan.” Instead I could only think of “A little more structure?”

“Tell me what you CAN’T do with a computer?”

Well, if I knew what I couldn’t do……….All I could think was “Like, what would you want me do?”

He showed me a large stack of invoices held together with a large clip. He explained that these go to accounting and they are paid without question. No verification to see if they got what they ordered.

“What would you do about this?”

Well, duh, let me see now. :bonk:

“It says here you are familiar with ISO 9000.” I almost choked. Here we go again.

“Yes.”

“How much did you want to make?”
Well, duh, let me see now. :bonk: I gave him a copy of my resume and salary history.

“Well. I’m not going to make up mind until early January.”

“That’s fine because, as you can see, I'm currently employed and I didn’t plan to start right away, anyway.”

I don’t think I did too good. :vfunny:

Energy, honey....this doesn't sound like the type of job you'd WANT to do well on the interview on...they might hire you! ;) <Shiver>

I don't know... I was once within a hair of turning a job offer down because I felt bad vibes from the HR Mgr, who performed the interviews. In the end however, I got along fine with everyone else in the organization... There was only one person in the entire company who really got me on edge. You guessed it: The HR Mgr...

Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that HR managers should not be the ones providing potential new staff with their first impression of a company. They often botch it royally imo... Anyone with similar experiences?

/Claes

When I give the pep talks for unemployed at Section meetings, I always tell these guys the following:

No one gets hired from a resume alone - the resume just buys a ticket to the interview.
The higher level job, the more interviews before hiring
the job of both the interviewer and interviewee is the same - determine if there is a personality fit between the parties (candidate doesn't get to the interview unless his credentials fit the job)
Over in the ASQ Forums, we had a recent exchange about personality tests.
My take: I can teach you to answer all the questions in a way that will make your test results acceptable to the organization, but I can't teach you to be happy pretending to be somebody you're not.
Consider this: you can say you are happiest working around other people, but that doesn't necessarily make them happy about working around you.

There are a lot of pure jerks in gatekeeper positions at various organizations. Consider whether the job is worth the time and trouble to find a way to evade the jerk gatekeeper to get to someone with real hiring authority.

My take: I can teach you to answer all the questions in a way that will make your test results acceptable to the organization, but I can't teach you to be happy pretending to be somebody you're not.

Consider whether the job is worth the time and trouble to find a way to evade the jerk gatekeeper to get to someone with real hiring authority.

In this case, the gatekeeper is in the position to hire. So, basically you can teach them to "fabricate" a personality acceptable to the hirer. How does one know if they will be happy there if they can't get in the door? How does this happiness with deception work? Obviously, there must be a lot of people happy with pretending to be somebody they're not if it can be taught. No? Or, do we take on this new identity because we never knew that is who we really are? Kind of like deceptively passing a polygraph? Just keeping it going. ;)

Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that HR managers should not be the ones providing potential new staff with their first impression of a company. They often botch it royally imo... Anyone with similar experiences?

Ah, Claes....sometimes I think you're my much-better-looking-Doppleganger living on the other side of the world! I totally agree with the HR Manager comment.

My current organization has a great HR Manager...not only is she a people person (!!! honest !!! I can get a hug from her any time!), but she also got a great personality and is willing to learn and includes the manager from the department looking to hire in on the hiring process. Helps to have the person who will be working with the newbie there, right?

But, once upon a time, I had an interview at the company where the HR asked me questions like "So...what is ISO 9000?" (they are a registered company), "Where do you want to be in 5 and 10 years?" (Leader of the Free World and Supreme Goddess of the Universe are not acceptable answers, by the way), "Why do you want to work here?" (McDonalds didn't pay enough to cover my mortgage!).

The questions asked by my possible boss were a bit more indepth. "How many elements are there in ISO 9001?" (Is this a multiple choice question?) and "Which 3, with Element number and name, do you think are the most important and why?" (I knew I should have written the answers on the soles of my shoes!)

That being said, eventually (or should that be amazingly) I got the job offer. At the same time I received the job off for where I am now. After much internal debating, discussions with family, and flipping of coins, I opted for where I am now and called up the Loser...ummm...company that just didn't meet my requirements for employment. :D

The HR Manager asked me the following:

Why aren't you taking our job? Because I feel a better fit with the other organization.
What are they offerring you that we are not? A better fit and an opportunity to help the system grow.
What are they paying you? I do not believe that is relevent to this conversation.
Yes it is. You must tell me. No, I do not.
Yes you must. No, I do not. Thank you for your offer, but unfortunately, I must decline it.
(before I could hang up) Where are they located? What is their name? I do not need to answer either of those questions. Thank you again. Have a nice day. (hung up)


That's one HR Manager who picked the wrong field to go into. :bonk:

In this case, the gatekeeper is in the position to hire. So, basically you can teach them to "fabricate" a personality acceptable to the hirer. How does one know if they will be happy there if they can't get in the door? How does this happiness with deception work? Obviously, there must be a lot of people happy with pretending to be somebody they're not if it can be taught. No? Or, do we take on this new identity because we never knew that is who we really are? Kind of like deceptively passing a polygraph? Just keeping it going.

From personal experience, I think many of us pretend to be softer versions of ourselves during interviews. I don't want my potential new place of employment knowing right off the back that I have a quirky sense of humour, am seriously moody, and rather tenascious when I set mind on something. It is much more enjoyable when they learn this after they give me the special key to archive room.

That being said, and all joking aside, an interview is a sales job from both sides. You want a job...they want to hire some one. Obviously, they will hide much of their dirty laundry from you...just as we will from them. It's a game that is played. Reality hits after you're hired and the newlywed stage wears off.

I may not get along on a personal level with all of my coworkers (and vice versa), but at work, I do expect a certain level of professionalism from them and give them the same in return. It's called courtesy, respect, and being an adult.

If, after time, there is no "fit" happening, then something has to give. Why waste your life working for an organization you do not believe in? Why take up space for someone who could potentially be a better fit for them?

And if you're the boss of someone of whom you're unsure about, ask yourself these two questions (courtesy of Jim Collins' book 'From Good to Great'):


If you were back at the hiring stage and you knew then what you know now, would you hire this person all over again?
If this person were to hand in their letter of resignation, would you feel a sense of relief or dismay?


The same can be said for employees looking at organizations where we work...just paraphrase the above questions.


If you were back at the interview stage and you knew then what you know now, would you still accept their job offer?
If this company was to let you go, would you feel a sense of relief or dismay (from a professional standpoint...forget you have bills to pay)?

I don't know... I was once within a hair of turning a job offer down because I felt bad vibes from the HR Mgr, who performed the interviews. In the end however, I got along fine with everyone else in the organization... There was only one person in the entire company who really got me on edge. You guessed it: The HR Mgr...

Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that HR managers should not be the ones providing potential new staff with their first impression of a company. They often botch it royally imo... Anyone with similar experiences?

/Claes

One job, I was interviewed by the entire team. The decision was totally in their hands, and they decided it would have to be unanimous (I didn’t get the job). In another company, they only hired from employee-suggested applicants. The employee that made the suggestion was interviewed first, then they would bring in the applicant. I did get that job, and lost it only when the company was assimilated (resistance was futile). :(

Ah, Claes....sometimes I think you're my much-better-looking-Doppleganger living on the other side of the world! I totally agree with the HR Manager comment.

The HR Manager asked me the following:

Why aren't you taking our job? Because I feel a better fit with the other organization.
What are they offerring you that we are not? A better fit and an opportunity to help the system grow.
What are they paying you? I do not believe that is relevent to this conversation.
Yes it is. You must tell me. No, I do not.
Yes you must. No, I do not. Thank you for your offer, but unfortunately, I must decline it.
(before I could hang up) Where are they located? What is their name? I do not need to answer either of those questions. Thank you again. Have a nice day. (hung up)


That being said, and all joking aside, an interview is a sales job from both sides. You want a job...they want to hire some one. Obviously, they will hide much of their dirty laundry from you...just as we will from them. It's a game that is played. Reality hits after you're hired and the newlywed stage wears off.

I may not get along on a personal level with all of my coworkers (and vice versa), but at work, I do expect a certain level of professionalism from them and give them the same in return. It's called courtesy, respect, and being an adult.

If, after time, there is no "fit" happening, then something has to give. Why waste your life working for an organization you do not believe in? Why take up space for someone who could potentially be a better fit for them?

And if you're the boss of someone of whom you're unsure about, ask yourself these two questions (courtesy of Jim Collins' book 'From Good to Great'):

If you were back at the hiring stage and you knew then what you know now, would you hire this person all over again?
If this person were to hand in their letter of resignation, would you feel a sense of relief or dismay?

The same can be said for employees looking at organizations where we work...just paraphrase the above questions.

If you were back at the interview stage and you knew then what you know now, would you still accept their job offer?
If this company was to let you go, would you feel a sense of relief or dismay (from a professional standpoint...forget you have bills to pay)?
Wow, Roxanne! Well said!

Instead of being glib, let me be stone serious here and echo some of your points. I am especially proud of the way you handled the HR person's lame attempt at an 'exit interview.'

The process of getting a new job is a job all by itself.

We can be "clock punchers" with no planning or pride in our work or we can be the kind of professional at this "job" that we hold ourselves out to be in the Quality Profession.

Richard Bolles, who wrote What Color is Your Parachute? [he updates it annually], is the premier authority on making a profession out of job hunting. If you or someone you know is currently out of a job, underemployed, or employed with a "boss from Hades" - this book is an excellent tool to help in understanding the process and dynamics of job hunting. Bolles maintains a helpful website http://www.jobhuntersbible.com/ which is worth the browsing to see some of the articles and philosophies pertaining to the pros and cons of giving the "right" answers to tests and interview questions.

Often, the problem is merely a combination of fear (paranoia?) and misunderstanding on the part of either or both the interviewer and interviewee. In such cases, the job candidate can serve himself and the potential employer well by learning to avoid wrong turns and, most especially, by calming fears and clearing up misunderstandings.

In a small minority of cases, even after using all the ameliatory techniques, it is obvious there will be no fit because of personalities and culture clash. The pure fact is that it takes a certain personality to be an "agent of change" in a bollixed organization. Many of us may have the skills and knowledge, but few have the temperament to do the work.

If the candidate has an honest and true assessment of his own skills and temperament, he will have an easier and better time determining whether it is worth the effort to appease the gatekeeper to get the job or whether it is better to take the initiative and end the interview.

I don't mean to go on a rant here, but I am distressed when I read letters and posts from discouraged job hunters (here, at the ASQ Forums, and sent to me personally) and it seems obvious to me they are handicapping their job hunt by inadequate preparation for the interview.

Wow, Roxanne! Well said!

Instead of being glib, let me be stone serious here and echo some of your points. I am especially proud of the way you handled the HR person's lame attempt at an 'exit interview.'

The process of getting a new job is a job all by itself.

I don't mean to go on a rant here, but I am distressed when I read letters and posts from discouraged job hunters (here, at the ASQ Forums, and sent to me personally) and it seems obvious to me they are handicapping their job hunt by inadequate preparation for the interview.

First, I second your comments on RC ;)

Second, Having gone through two periods 10 months + each of seeking employment during very slow economic times, there have been quite a few interviews. You can never be completely prepared for some of the games interviewers play. But, I agree that the more practice you have, the better it gets. :agree:

Hey, I found security photos of energy's job interview

job interview part 2

Sorry, I saw these today, and they seemed to fit the recent posts of energy's.

job interview part 2

:topic:
Sorry, I saw these today, and they seemed to fit the recent posts of energy's.

You're right; we're billing you way too much for this

Bet you I can go a week without saying "on board" or "value-added"

How about paying me based on the success of the project ?

This whole strategy is based on a Harvard business case I read about

Actually, the only difference is that I charge more than they do

I don't know enough to speak intelligently about that

Implementation ? I only care about writing long reports

I can't take the credit. It was energy in the Elsmar Forums

The problem is, you have too much work for too few people

Everything looks OK to me, you're doing just fine :vfunny:

After a tour of the most cluttered, dark, dank, musty unkempt facility I had ever been in, we proceeded to the “Conference Room” for the meat and potatoes part of the hiring process. Besides the customary “Tell me a little bit about yourself”, here’s a couple of the questions:

“What skills would you bring to MY organization?“ Uh, he’s reading my resume.

The immediate answer would have been “What organization?” Or, “I’m good with a broom and dust pan.” Instead I could only think of “A little more structure?”

“Tell me what you CAN’T do with a computer?”

Well, if I knew what I couldn’t do……….All I could think was “Like, what would you want me do?”

He showed me a large stack of invoices held together with a large clip. He explained that these go to accounting and they are paid without question. No verification to see if they got what they ordered.

“What would you do about this?”

Well, duh, let me see now. :bonk:

“It says here you are familiar with ISO 9000.” I almost choked. Here we go again.

“Yes.”

“How much did you want to make?”
Well, duh, let me see now. :bonk: I gave him a copy of my resume and salary history.

“Well. I’m not going to make up mind until early January.”

“That’s fine because, as you can see, I'm currently employed and I didn’t plan to start right away, anyway.”

I don’t think I did too good. :vfunny:

Just stopped by for a quick look-see and I had to wonder when I read this if you were interviewing with our corporate office. :biglaugh: The atmosphere and level of "intelligence" in the questions had me thinking for awhile! But alas they are not in CT.

We can be "clock punchers" with no planning or pride in our work or we can be the kind of professional at this "job" that we hold ourselves out to be in the Quality Profession.

I'll take the latter, please. Occasionally, I admit, I slip up and sometimes struggle to maintain my focus at work...but that usually occurs after 2-3 weeks of 10+ hours days, weekends working, and minimal sleeping. A day or two of no focus usually gives my brain the much needed distraction it needs to resume my normal activities.

In a small minority of cases, even after using all the ameliatory techniques, it is obvious there will be no fit because of personalities and culture clash. The pure fact is that it takes a certain personality to be an "agent of change" in a bollixed organization. Many of us may have the skills and knowledge, but few have the temperament to do the work.

My HR Manager and I have talked about this. She used to do QA, once upon a time, but jumped at the chance to switch over to the HR stream. She admits it takes a very special person to do this job. It goes beyond thick skin and an almost fanatical dedication to detail. She mentioned the ability to see the big picture while maintaining a focus on each pixel. We talked about a strange (often misunderstood) sense of humour. And communication skills...the ability to talk at all levels so that the entire organization understands the system. We're a bit of Engineering, Sales, Management, HR, and Floor staff all rolled into one.

At the same time, it takes a special group of people to understand this about QA. We aren't usually the kind of people who are easily handled and simple to pigeon-hole. If an organization expects otherwise, "fitting in" will be difficult.

If the candidate has an honest and true assessment of his own skills and temperament, he will have an easier and better time determining whether it is worth the effort to appease the gatekeeper to get the job or whether it is better to take the initiative and end the interview.

Hah! So true! I had to take a Personality and Skills Assesment test at a personnel company as part of my interview process for my current job. The test was supposed to take four hours. I was done in two. The lady giving me the test was surprised, but nodded in agreement when I said, "Look. I know who I am and I'm comfortable with that. If I am not the kind of person your client is looking for, there is no benefit to either party wasting their time."

Over time, I found out that the two other candidates for the job (both from within the company) each took the full amount of time for their testing. Don't know if that means something...but why should I pretend to be someone I am not? I will spend a minimum of 8 hours a day at this place, 5 days a week with these people...if there was no fit, no one would win.

Oh, the results of my testing? I passed them on to the HR Coordinator at the time, who laughed and asked me to tell the entire Management Committee when they came in (all 7 of them) to interview me at the same time...."I am mentally stable at least on a superficial level." :vfunny: Good thing the personnel agency didn't dig too deep! :bonk:

Second, Having gone through two periods 10 months + each of seeking employment during very slow economic times, there have been quite a few interviews. You can never be completely prepared for some of the games interviewers play. But, I agree that the more practice you have, the better it gets.

True. I hated (hate?) interviews. Occasionally, you meet someone who loves to throw those thought-provoking questions, which almost leave you brain dead at the end.

And yet, it never fails, the companies with whom I think I had a great interview usually call me up to give me bad news and the companies with whom I think I bombed usually call me to give me a job offer.

Hey, I found security photos of energy's job interview

Cute, Dave! A coworker just checked up on me to see if I was okay!

Hah! So true! I had to take a Personality and Skills Assesment test at a personnel company as part of my interview process for my current job. The test was supposed to take four hours. I was done in two. The lady giving me the test was surprised, but nodded in agreement when I said, "Look. I know who I am and I'm comfortable with that. If I am not the kind of person your client is looking for, there is no benefit to either party wasting their time."



As a very young man I took one of those tests for a well known retail house. Like, they make Die Hards. ;) I answered the questions just the opposite of what I would have because I felt that the answers were the ones they wanted to hear. Well, "Young man, we have an opening for somebody with your temperment in the Customer Service Dept." Taking complaints and abuse from irate customers. Needless to say, I couldn't even think about it. When the customer comes in and throws a toaster at you, you have to duck. For me, it would have been returned Air Mail-no postage required. Now, if I had been honest they may have let me change oil or tires in the garage, providing I had no Customer contact, whatsoever. :vfunny:

When I interviewed for this job, the interviewer (the outgoing quality person who was trying to choose her own replacement) used a word that I cannot type in the forums due to posting regulations. I didn't flinch. I believe that got me the job and that the word referring to a female canine (not directed at me!) was deliberately chosen to see if I would jump up and run screaming for the door.

Just wondered if there were similar fun stories out there. :vfunny:

At my last job, my soon-to-be boss mentioned the university I went to with a smile. I jokingly threatened him that I better not hear any Last Chance U comments.

He frowned and mentioned that he thought he had gone to Last Chance U. When I asked what school he went to and he told me, I replied, "Oh, so you went to Last Chance U!"

After several minutes of bantering and picking on each others school's, I got the job offer along with a pact that we would never tease each other about our respective school's when other people were around.

*** *** ***

My first job introducing me to ISO 9000 involved my soon-to-be boss asking me what ISO 9000 meant to me. At the time, it was the first edition, I said "As long as we make consistent 'garbage' (paraphrasing my exact term), we can still be registered." ISO just wants consistency."

He loved my answer and bluntness. Further discussion showed that I did care about the Customer even if ISO seemingly did not. Got the job.

*** *** ***

Had an interview with a compressed air company. The interviewer and I got along so well, that we didn't realize how late it had become until the cleaning staff started turning off the lights!

I got the job offer, but declined. They pay just didn't compensate enough (in my mind) for the required move.

Fun story...

At another company I was advertising for a technician for my department. This was about 1994. I always wrote my own ads, which were very specific, and did my own interviewing and resume reviews. I often said I was going to keep the resume’s I got and write a book of resume bloopers, but I lost many of the “best” resumes. You wouldn’t believe some of the stuff I got in resumes (or, maybe you would) :(

The one resume that tops them all for me was handwritten, with remarks stuck in everywhere, including writing sideways (bottom-to-top) in the margins and little ^ marks with added words in the body. And to top it all off, one of the statements was, as best as I can remember it, “I do have some mental and emotional problems”. Well, at least the guy was honest! Part of me wanted to invite the guy for an interview and part of me was too scared to do it, and the scared (let’s say “prudent”) part won out.

Couple of quick ones before I head out for lunch:

An actual quote from a Plant Manager interviewing me for a job as their CMM Operator/Programmer at a small tool and die shop:

"Honey, why in the world do you want to work in a dirty shop?"

An actual quote from a person that phoned my home in response to receiving my resume:

"Oh, I thought it was Carl. Sorry for bothering you."
He didn't even have it in him to follow through with the contact and offer me an interview. Apparently he was not interested in interviewing someone who's name ended in "i". :rolleyes:

Well, "Carl" ;) at least you're better of not working for dolts like that. You could work for me anytime, and I'd work for you, too. :agree:

Actually, I was kinda the opposite of those guys. I had no problem hiring women, and did several times, but I let them know in the interview exactly what the job entailed, which was sometimes "dirty work" (like cleaning the storage areas, cleaning windows, mopping floors, storing records in the attic, etc.) and that I expected all my people, guys and girls alike, to share equally in the "dirty work". A few times one or two of them tried to bat their eyes and say "you aren't gonna make ME do (whatever) are you?" The answer was always, "Why not, everyone else gets their turn"? Most of them respected me for it -- even if it took awhile.

After several phone conversations, we decided to meet at his place of business. He looked up from the receptionist's desk when I walked in and asked "Are you him?" He actually tried to look past me to see if there was some misunderstanding. I said, "Yes, it's me.", after looking back over my shoulder in amusement. He saw "age" and was unable to make the adjustment to demonstrate that it didn't matter. A friend of mine worked there and had referred me. After failing to obtain the position due to others being much more qualified ;), my friend couldn't understand why. We had worked together before. I saw him a year or two later and he was overjoyed to tell me that the interviewer was canned 6 months after I applied to be his assistant, for missing too much time from work to play golf. :vfunny:

Years ago I advertized for an SPC Coordinator. I received one completed application that included a question from the applicant at the end of the sheet that said, "by the way, what do the initials S P C stand for?". :rolleyes:

Years ago I advertized for an SPC Coordinator. I received one completed application that included a question from the applicant at the end of the sheet that said, "by the way, what do the initials S P C stand for?". :rolleyes:

LOL! Years ago a former boss told me of a guy who called about an ad for a journeyman metal model maker, and the name of the company included the words "Sheetmetal Prototype". He asked "Model what?" :vfunny: At least it wasn't penciled in at the bottom of the ap.

Well, "Carl" ;) at least you're better of not working for dolts like that. You could work for me anytime, and I'd work for you, too. :agree:

Actually, I was kinda the opposite of those guys. I had no problem hiring women, and did several times, but I let them know in the interview exactly what the job entailed, which was sometimes "dirty work" (like cleaning the storage areas, cleaning windows, mopping floors, storing records in the attic, etc.) and that I expected all my people, guys and girls alike, to share equally in the "dirty work". A few times one or two of them tried to bat their eyes and say "you aren't gonna make ME do (whatever) are you?" The answer was always, "Why not, everyone else gets their turn"? Most of them respected me for it -- even if it took awhile.

Well thank you, right back at ya. And you're right. I never sweat that stuff. I am not the least bit concerned about missing an opportunity to work for someone like that. I can honestly say that I have never been discriminated against in any way by any one I've worked for. Sure, there were a couple of people here and there along the way that tried to give me a hard time occasionally - but they were usually not in my "chain of command", so it was more like "hazing". It never took long to win over even the worst of 'em. :smokin:

When I joined the Army Reserves, I was allowed to attend drill weekends for about 3 months before I left for Basic Training. When I attended my first drill weekend, along with about 8-10 others, we all had to attend a little intro meeting. Some of the new guys were like me, no prior service and sitting there in our civilian clothes - and some were coming out of Regular Army. The Command Sargeant Major went around the room and asked everyone to stand, state your name and what MOS. So, I say "Cari Trombley - I'm 51 Bravo - Carpentry and Masonry Specialist assigned to the Repair and Utilities Section." He says, in front of the whole room "Well, I guess even the skilled trades are no longer safe." (db - can you name that CSM?) Well, six years and one war later, he was right there drinking beer from my combat boot at my last drill weekend with all the rest of my buddies.

(db - can you name that CSM?)

I'm afraid not. My memory doesn't go back that far. :ko: But then again I was an officer and being so, had little time for the enlisted personnel. :rolleyes:

But then again I was an officer and being so, had little time for the enlisted personnel. :rolleyes:

You crack me up. :vfunny: We missed each other by a few years, so I believe he was the First Sargeant while you were there.

Here's what i have experienced...

"So, what kind of tasks and experiences have you had in your jobs"

"Well, I used to kill people..which I got very good at, & I've been sued for civil rights violations"

KA-CHING!!!!! No hire............... :biglaugh:

Didn't want the job anyway

How about an example of a good interview? My favorite interview ever:

I answered an ad for someone with good blueprint reading / GD&T skills who was willing to learn the CMM. On the phone I told them that I had no prior CMM experience, but I had been reading and working with prints since highschool, and that I frequently tutored students in basic blueprint reading and GD&T. I also gave basic bp reading and basic SPC training to new hires or inspection dept. trainees at my current job.

I walked in, introduced myself and shook hands with the Plant Manager and the Shop Foreman. They pulled out a print, pointed to a bunch of stuff and asked questions like "What does this mean?", "How would you calculate true position for this?", "How would you set this part up on the CMM table using these datums?".

This went on for about 15 minutes and they offered me the job. As it turns out, they had been advertising for a CMM operator and were amazed at the number of applicants that could not read a print. So, they changed the ad, and it fairly screamed "Cari - apply!"

How about an example of a good interview? My favorite interview ever:

I walked in, introduced myself and shook hands with the Plant Manager and the Shop Foreman. They pulled out a print, pointed to a bunch of stuff and asked questions like "What does this mean?", "How would you calculate true position for this?", "How would you set this part up on the CMM table using these datums?".

This went on for about 15 minutes and they offered me the job. As it turns out, they had been advertising for a CMM operator and were amazed at the number of applicants that could not read a print.

Looks like a good interviewer to me. I know people that do nothing but operate CMM's. I looked at it for awhile and decided I needed a brain. Anybody sitting at a desk and telling you it's easy, is, well, sitting at a desk. :vfunny:

That's right! I'd say my layout experience (surface plate methods) was pretty helpful, and a lot depends on the software.

Not only was that my favorite interview - but I very much enjoyed working for them. Money was eventually why I left - just no room for advancement.

I don't know... I was once within a hair of turning a job offer down because I felt bad vibes from the HR Mgr, who performed the interviews. In the end however, I got along fine with everyone else in the organization... There was only one person in the entire company who really got me on edge. You guessed it: The HR Mgr...

Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that HR managers should not be the ones providing potential new staff with their first impression of a company. They often botch it royally imo... Anyone with similar experiences?

/Claes


My goodness Claes did we interview for the same job I wonder? :biglaugh: I was 6 hours into the second interview with this company and had talked with everyone I would be working with, then comes the HR Manager, what a pleasent "lady" she was. I had interviewed great with everyone else than it happens. I was accused of lying on my resume "There is no way someone your age could have done everything you have listed", (that really mad me :mad: ), but I camly asked what in particular she was questioning and again "there is no way you have done all the things you have listed" I again asked what she was questioning, "the experience you have listed is a lie", I thanked her for her time and said if this is the way HR treats potential employees then I do not feel this would be a good fit for me, thank you and have a good day. On the way out I thanked the QA Manager for her time and let her know it would not be a good fit and that I was cutting the interview short, she asked way and I let her know that she should talk to the HR Manager.

My goodness Claes did we interview for the same job I wonder? :biglaugh: I was 6 hours into the second interview with this company and had talked with everyone I would be working with, then comes the HR Manager, what a pleasent "lady" she was. I had interviewed great with everyone else than it happens. I was accused of lying on my resume "There is no way someone your age could have done everything you have listed", (that really mad me :mad: ), but I camly asked what in particular she was questioning and again "there is no way you have done all the things you have listed" I again asked what she was questioning, "the experience you have listed is a lie", I thanked her for her time and said if this is the way HR treats potential employees then I do not feel this would be a good fit for me, thank you and have a good day. On the way out I thanked the QA Manager for her time and let her know it would not be a good fit and that I was cutting the interview short, she asked way and I let her know that she should talk to the HR Manager.
Tough experience. I'd like to caution others who may find themselves in similar circumstance that merely walking away without specific statement outlining the reason and asking for a written apology would give this miscreant HR person ammo to say (when asked by QA guy), "He lied on his resume!" thus making YOU out to be the jerk.

I understand how the blood pressure rises and you feel the color either rising or draining from your face when confronted by such a person impugning your integrity (I've been there more than once in the last 30 years), but you owe it to yourself to clear the air, starting at the top of the organization. IMO, the slur by the HR person is actionable and could result in a damage award for slander for the verbal slur, or libel, if the HR person wrote it in a memo.

I can think of a thousand reasons this HR person made such an idiotic statement, ranging from a poor joke, to ignorance, to outright prejudice. Not one of the reasons I can think of is minor enough to ignore.

I realize hindsight is always better, so don't take this as a personal attack from me. I'm not sure I could have held my own temper in check enough to treat the initial statement as a joke, such as, "Wow! Thanks for the compliment! (If you aren't joking, that is.) I really HAVE accomplished a lot in such a short time, haven't I? Was there something in the list that struck you as particularly difficult? I love talking about my accomplishments and I'd be happy to give you the story and circumstances surrounding any or all of them if you have time."

My general rule of thumb [I don't have a perfect record on this part] when confronted by such an obvious idiot is to get it all out in the open in front of witnesses who can see for themselves you handle yourself with dignity and aplomb in such a situation. If the slander continues or goes further, you can always say (again in front of witnesses) in a stone cold voice, no joking around now, "That's a pretty slanderous remark. Do you mean it, or are you trying to be humorous?"

On the way out I thanked the QA Manager for her time and let her know it would not be a good fit and that I was cutting the interview short, she asked why and I let her know that she should talk to the HR Manager.
I learned a long time ago that when they switched from Personnel Manager to Human Resources Manager that there was a reason that there was no "e" at the end of Human. ;) I never met one with your interest at heart. :agree:

I can think of a thousand reasons this HR person made such an idiotic statement, ranging from a poor joke, to ignorance, to outright prejudice. Not one of the reasons I can think of is minor enough to ignore.
[/i]

Could it have been a test to see how you react under name calling? Like, let's spin this guy to see if he cracks? If he can take this abuse, he may fit in here. The fact that the QA Mgr had to ask what was wrong should have been a clue. I know my reaction. Some things just aren't worth it. ;)

I agree with Wes. I would have to let the Top Dog in that organization know what a jerk his/her HR manager was. I think I would ask to see the Top Dog or at the least the highest authority I interviewed with earlier and calmly and professionally (I hope) let them know what the HR jerk said and that I was quite offended at being called a liar and ask them what they intended to do about it. They should get the hint that they might be on the hook legally if the jerk repeated and stood by his/her remark.

I agree with Wes. I would have to let the Top Dog in that organization know what a jerk his/her HR manager was. I think I would ask to see the Top Dog or at the least the highest authority I interviewed with earlier and calmly and professionally (I hope) let them know what the HR jerk said and that I was quite offended at being called a liar and ask them what they intended to do about it. They should get the hint that they might be on the hook legally if the jerk repeated and stood by his/her remark.

As I see it, the interview was over. What right do you, or me, have to request an audience with the "Powers to be"? You have the option of trying to contact the CEO-President with your tales of woe. They have these people in their employ to separate the "wheat from the chaff". My guess is that you would be considered a sliver in their finger. A good reason for ejecting you from the hiring pool. I don't agree with the tactic. But, these airheads consider you an applicant. Because it didn't go your way, you are going to try to get your pound of flesh because you felt abused. You were abused. No doubt. A company with this culture will find your objections to your treatment a good topic for discussion around the coffee pot in the AM. That's all. The only one who will feel good is you. In the meantime, their hunt for the right candidate will continue with accolades to the HR Hump for weeding you out. Sad, but true. I've seen it. Knew what it was. Knew the candidate was being subjected to something that was wrong. Too bad. Next please. And, you ask me why I drink? :vfunny:

As I see it, the interview was over. What right do you, or me, have to request an audience with the "Powers to be"? You have the option of trying to contact the CEO-President with your tales of woe. They have these people in their employ to separate the "wheat from the chaff". My guess is that you would be considered a sliver in their finger. A good reason for ejecting you from the hiring pool. I don't agree with the tactic. But, these airheads consider you an applicant. Because it didn't go your way, you are going to try to get your pound of flesh because you felt abused. You were abused. No doubt. A company with this culture will find your objections to your treatment a good topic for discussion around the coffee pot in the AM. That's all. The only one who will feel good is you. In the meantime, their hunt for the right candidate will continue with accolades to the HR Hump for weeding you out. Sad, but true. I've seen it. Knew what it was. Knew the candidate was being subjected to something that was wrong. Too bad. Next please. And, you ask me why I drink? :vfunny:In my lifetime, I've gone from being a clueless WASP to anti-bully. It took about 3 major whacks with the two-by-four before I really GOT IT.

I no longer stand idly by when someone is abused for race, age, gender, or any other characteristic (including being a hapless job candidate.) The concept I keep in mind in similar to FMEA (what's the worst possible outcome?)
If I'm the victim, I refuse to lay down or crawl away.
If I'm the bystander, I ask myself,
"Could I be the next victim?"
"Do I want to live/work in this environment of fear?"
"If this victim gets ticked off, will he come back with a subpoena or a gun?"
"What will happen to my company? my job? me?"

Usually, in my mind, the worst consequences of speaking out are always a lot less than pretending it didn't happen. I'm no Saint, but I'm trying not to be a sinner.

I no longer stand idly by when someone is abused for race, age, gender, or any other characteristic (including being a hapless job candidate.)
Noble indeed. Just not indicative of the general populace. People get done up everyday and never know why. You and I know, there are times when the family comes to mind and you remain silent, if not extremely angry. You either come in and go to your desk or visit the employment section of the Labor Dept. :agree: :truce:

...others who may find themselves in similar circumstance that merely walking away...would give this miscreant HR person ammo to say (when asked by QA guy), "He lied on his resume!" thus making YOU out to be the jerk.

I understand how the blood pressure rises and you feel the color either rising or draining from your face when confronted by such a person impugning your integrity...

...I'm not sure I could have held my own temper in check enough to treat the initial statement as a joke, such as, "Wow! Thanks for the compliment!...Was there something in the list that struck you as particularly difficult?...I'd be happy to give you the story and circumstances surrounding any or all of them if you have time."

My general rule of thumb [I don't have a perfect record on this part] when confronted by such an obvious idiot is to get it all out in the open in front of witnesses who can see for themselves you handle yourself with dignity and aplomb in such a situation. If the slander continues or goes further, you can always say (again in front of witnesses) in a stone cold voice, no joking around now, "That's a pretty slanderous remark. Do you mean it, or are you trying to be humorous?"

I agree with all of the above - and neither do I have a perfect record. I would try to do just that, maintain my bearing and in front of witnesses. But to go any further, demanding an apology or to see the top dog, etc - I agree with energy on that one - at that point you're just an applicant, they won't bother.

As I see it, the interview was over. What right do you, or me, have to request an audience with the "Powers to be"? You have the option of trying to contact the CEO-President with your tales of woe. They have these people in their employ to separate the "wheat from the chaff". My guess is that you would be considered a sliver in their finger. A good reason for ejecting you from the hiring pool. I don't agree with the tactic. But, these airheads consider you an applicant. Because it didn't go your way, you are going to try to get your pound of flesh because you felt abused. You were abused. No doubt. A company with this culture will find your objections to your treatment a good topic for discussion around the coffee pot in the AM. That's all. The only one who will feel good is you. In the meantime, their hunt for the right candidate will continue with accolades to the HR Hump for weeding you out. Sad, but true. I've seen it. Knew what it was. Knew the candidate was being subjected to something that was wrong. Too bad. Next please. And, you ask me why I drink? :vfunny:

I agree with Energy on this. They would see it as sour grapes, what good does it do to get another person in trouble if it happens often enough they will see it and take the appropriate actions on their own, if not then it is theor problem. Maybe the HR person was having a bad day or something who knows. The way I see it is there will be other interviews why make a bad name for yourself. If they feel that I was lying that is their loss not mine.

What right do you, or me, have to request an audience with the "Powers to be"? You have the option of trying to contact the CEO-President with your tales of woe. They have these people in their employ to separate the "wheat from the chaff". My guess is that you would be considered a sliver in their finger. A good reason for ejecting you from the hiring pool. I don't agree with the tactic. But, these airheads consider you an applicant. Because it didn't go your way, you are going to try to get your pound of flesh because you felt abused. You were abused. No doubt. A company with this culture will find your objections to your treatment a good topic for discussion around the coffee pot in the AM. That's all. The only one who will feel good is you. In the meantime, their hunt for the right candidate will continue with accolades to the HR Hump for weeding you out. Sad, but true. I've seen it. Knew what it was. Knew the candidate was being subjected to something that was wrong. Too bad. Next please. And, you ask me why I drink? :vfunny:

What right do I have? I was slandered, that's what. Called a liar. Sorry, but I take that personally, especially when it might cost me a job opportunity or worse. That's kinda a big deal. Heck, Energy, I've seen you go postal here in the Cove on much lesser slights!

Will it do me any good to go to the Top Dog? Maybe , maybe not. Would I want to work there? Maybe, maybe not. IMO it is another case of maybe doing something (contacting the Top Dog) will do no good other than giving me the satisfaction of having done so. But how will I know unless I do it? One thing I know for sure, if I do nothing then nothing good can possibly come of it for me, and it is likely this HR jerk will continue his/her crappy ways with other candidates. Heck, what do I have to lose anyway? Because too many people do not stand up when they should this is one reason why we get such crappy service in so many venues.

If I were the Top Dog and someone in my employ did this I'd wanna know right away, wouldn't you? Maybe too many people who consider this HR person a jerk don't complain. Who knows? Neither of us do, we can only guess. You might have "seen it" before, but not every situation is the same.

Again, it is not like I'm risking losing my job and not feeding the family just for my pride -- I don't work there!

There is no right or wrong answer here, to each his own, and I realize we can't go to the top with every minor slight or injustice we may face, but this one would be enough to make me make the effort. JMO.

I agree with Energy on this. They would see it as sour grapes, what good does it do to get another person in trouble if it happens often enough they will see it and take the appropriate actions on their own, if not then it is theor problem. Maybe the HR person was having a bad day or something who knows. The way I see it is there will be other interviews why make a bad name for yourself. If they feel that I was lying that is their loss not mine.Gee. I remember back in the 60's when interviewers were asking female applicants if they were using birth control. I remember the snickering when HR folks put little marks on applications to signal race or ethnicity of the applicant. I remember receptionists being given instructions to tell any black or Hispanic applicants walking in that "all positions are filled" while the "Applicants Wanted" sign was a permanent fixture in front of the building.

In the 80's, I remember the "token black" or "token female" who never seemed to be able to get a promotion or invited to lunch or golf or any of the other things that went to establish a person as part of the "team."

Worst of all, I remember women and black men who used to say (and some still do), "I got where I am by my own efforts. They [meaning other women or other blacks] should be able to do the same."

Discrimination is NEVER right, no matter what the context. It's just a small step to going along when the boss says "Ship this!" when you know the product doesn't meet the spec. It's just another little step to go along when you know the purchasing agent is taking kickbacks for buying overpriced goods. As a profession, as individuals, we cannot "just go along."

A long time ago, cartoonist Walt Kelly had his protagonist, Pogo, say in a famous, oft-reprinted strip, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

When we "go along" we become the enemy!

Heck, Energy, I've seen you go postal here in the Cove on much lesser slights!
Really? :vfunny:


There is no right or wrong answer here, to each his own, and I realize we can't go to the top with every minor slight or injustice we may face, but this one would be enough to make me make the effort. JMO.

You don't work there. Remember? The interview is over, now beat it before we call security. :bonk:

When we "go along" we become the enemy!

I didn't want to quote the whole injustice thing again. Once is enough. :rolleyes: A fact of life: When we "don't go along" (mind our own business) we may become the unemployed. ;)

What right do I have? I was slandered, that's what. Called a liar. Sorry, but I take that personally, especially when it might cost me a job opportunity or worse. That's kinda a big deal. Heck, Energy, I've seen you go postal here in the Cove on much lesser slights!

Will it do me any good to go to the Top Dog? Maybe , maybe not. Would I want to work there? Maybe, maybe not. IMO it is another case of maybe doing something (contacting the Top Dog) will do no good other than giving me the satisfaction of having done so. But how will I know unless I do it? One thing I know for sure, if I do nothing then nothing good can possibly come of it for me, and it is likely this HR jerk will continue his/her crappy ways with other candidates. Heck, what do I have to lose anyway? Because too many people do not stand up when they should this is one reason why we get such crappy service in so many venues.

If I were the Top Dog and someone in my employ did this I'd wanna know right away, wouldn't you? Maybe too many people who consider this HR person a jerk don't complain. Who knows? Neither of us do, we can only guess. You might have "seen it" before, but not every situation is the same.

Again, it is not like I'm risking losing my job and not feeding the family just for my pride -- I don't work there!

There is no right or wrong answer here, to each his own, and I realize we can't go to the top with every minor slight or injustice we may face, but this one would be enough to make me make the effort. JMO.

I have to agree Mike, I don't believe that there is any room in this world for bullies (especially "professional" bullies). :rolleyes: Whether this company's management knew of the antics of this HR person or not, I would have made sure that they were aware of it before it was all said and done. :mad:

In the scenario you described, the only one who really had anything to lose by your going to the Top Dog would have been the HR person (especially since you weren't an employee), and one possible result that has not been discussed is the fact that it could have resulted in another review of your credentials possibly leading to an offer of employment. We'll never really know, so there are many possibilities that are valid (both negative and positive).

At this point, it has become a learning experience that one has to ponder and determine in their own mind - What have I learned from this experience, and could I have handled this situation differently that would have resulted in a more positive outcome? The answer to each being as varied between individuals as the responses we have seen here (for we each have our own past experiences, background, training (formal and informal), environments, faith/beliefs, etc. which weigh heavily on our analysis and decision making processes). :bigwave:

Really? :vfunny:



You don't work there. Remember? The interview is over, now beat it before we call security. :bonk:

Correctamundo, I don't work there! Exactly! What do I have to lose by blowing the whistle on the jerk in HR? So I tell the HR person I'd like to speak to the Top Dog, and if denied, I ask to speak to his/her boss (if that is not the Top Dog). If, as you say, I'm told to hit the door before they call security, okay, I leave peacefully. But, I either shortly thereafter call and speak with the Top Dog and/or send a certified letter to the Top Dog. After that, depending on what happens and what I think the fallout may be, I might even call an attorney for advice. (For example, if this is a small, tightly knit kinda business where I think the HR jerk might call other potential employers and lie to them about me, thereby hurting my chances at other companies.)

And, yes, Mr. Kettle, I never said I didn't occasionally go after folks here as well, so relax! There's no hypocracy. :smokin:

Correctamundo, I don't work there! Exactly! What do I have to lose by blowing the whistle on the jerk in HR? So I tell the HR person I'd like to speak to the Top Dog, and if denied, I ask to speak to his/her boss (if that is not the Top Dog).

Mike, I just had to do it. :agree:

Interviewer: So, what positions did you hold in previous employment?
Interviewee: My last position was Quality Manager, Mgt Rep, Safety & Environmental Mgr.
Interviewer: And before that?
Interviewee: Management Rep.
Interviewer: And before that?
Interviewee: Quality Manager, Mgt Rep, Safety & Environmental Mgr.
Interviewer: What about before that?
Interviewee: Quality Engineer
Interviewer: Anything else?
Interviewee: Yes, Quality Assurance Manager before that.
Interviewer: Is that all?
Interviewee: No. I was an Inspector
Interviewer: Oh c’mon now. How old are you?
Interviewee: Hey, you can’t ask me that!
Interviewer: You don’t look old enough to have held all those positions.
Interviewee: So, are you calling me a liar?
Interviewer: Kind of.
Interviewee: I object. Who do you think you are? I have my principles. I demand to see the Top Dog.
Interviewer: Not without an appointment.
Interviewee: Get me one, now!
Interviewer: Get out, now!
Interviewee: I have my rights.
Policeman: You have the right to an attorney. If you can’t afford one…………… ;)

Gee. I remember back in the 60's when interviewers were asking female applicants if they were using birth control. I remember the snickering when HR folks put little marks on applications to signal race or ethnicity of the applicant. I remember receptionists being given instructions to tell any black or Hispanic applicants walking in that "all positions are filled" while the "Applicants Wanted" sign was a permanent fixture in front of the building.

In the 80's, I remember the "token black" or "token female" who never seemed to be able to get a promotion or invited to lunch or golf or any of the other things that went to establish a person as part of the "team."

Worst of all, I remember women and black men who used to say (and some still do), "I got where I am by my own efforts. They [meaning other women or other blacks] should be able to do the same."

Discrimination is NEVER right, no matter what the context. It's just a small step to going along when the boss says "Ship this!" when you know the product doesn't meet the spec. It's just another little step to go along when you know the purchasing agent is taking kickbacks for buying overpriced goods. As a profession, as individuals, we cannot "just go along."

A long time ago, cartoonist Walt Kelly had his protagonist, Pogo, say in a famous, oft-reprinted strip, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

When we "go along" we become the enemy!

Hey we all have our own way of handling things you do your thing and I will do mine, is one way better than the other, not really. Did I have anything to gain by being a noise maker no, did I have anything to lose probably not. In the grand scheme of things this was not that important to me. I know my resume is 100% accurate, was I ticked off that she was pretty much calling me a liar, you betcha, but i handled it the way I felt I should have. :truce:

Mike, I just had to do it. :agree:

Interviewer: Oh c’mon now. How old are you?
Interviewee: Hey, you can’t ask me that!
Interviewer: You don’t look old enough to have held all those positions.
Interviewee: So, are you calling me a liar?
Interviewer: Kind of.
/

Not exactly, Sheriff.

Isoguy's original post was "I was 6 hours into the second interview with this company and had talked with everyone I would be working with, then comes the HR Manager, what a pleasent "lady" she was. I had interviewed great with everyone else than it happens. I was accused of lying on my resume "There is no way someone your age could have done everything you have listed", (that really mad me ), but I camly asked what in particular she was questioning and again "there is no way you have done all the things you have listed" I again asked what she was questioning, "the experience you have listed is a lie",

2nd interview. 6th hour. Interviewed great with everyone else. Then this happens. She calls me a liar 3 times. She is 100% wrong.

Again, to each his/her own, if you wanna waltz out and just forget it, that's fine and your business, it just isn't what I would do. And I woulda bet that you wouldn't have, either. Guess I woulda bet wrong. :agree:

Hey we all have our own way of handling things you do your thing and I will do mine, is one way better than the other, not really. Did I have anything to gain by being a noise maker no, did I have anything to lose probably not. In the grand scheme of things this was not that important to me. I know my resume is 100% accurate, was I ticked off that she was pretty much calling me a liar, you betcha, but i handled it the way I felt I should have. :truce:

What did it for me with your situation was when the QA Manager had to ask why you were leaving. Unbelievable. You're better off. I would have needed a litle more support from anybody before I even thought of raising an objection. This was a place that didn't deserve another minute of your time. In fact, I would have headed for the door and not even given the QA Manager another look. To stay another moment, for me, was to invite disaster. I'm sure you get my drift. :agree: ;)

I[/B] would do. And I woulda bet that you wouldn't have, either. Guess I woulda bet wrong.

It was a joke, my somber amigo. Geez. :vfunny:

What did it for me with your situation was when the QA Manager had to ask why you were leaving. Unbelievable. You're better off. I would have needed a litle more support from anybody before I even thought of raising an objection. This was a place that didn't deserve another minute of your time. In fact, I would have headed for the door and not even given the QA Manager another look. To stay another moment, for me, was to invite disaster. I'm sure you get my drift. :agree: ;)

I was led to believe that the interview with the HR person was 1 on 1 and the QA Manager was not present when the HR "lady" called Isoguy a liar. Maybe I was wrong. :confused:

I was led to believe that the interview with the HR person was 1 on 1 and the QA Manager was not present when the HR "lady" called Isoguy a liar. Maybe I was wrong. :confused:

I would have thought that the QA Manager wouldn't have left the applicant alone with this creature for a Private Interview. Would you? I mean, don't you want to see the whole enchalada? You may be on to something that I missed. But, it wouldn't be the first time, Sherlock! :vfunny:

I was led to believe that the interview with the HR person was 1 on 1 and the QA Manager was not present when the HR "lady" called Isoguy a liar. Maybe I was wrong. :confused:


That would be correct, the portion of the interview with the HR person was 1 on 1.

[QUOTE=energy]Mike, I just had to do it. :agree:

Interviewer: Oh c’mon now. How old are you?
Interviewee: Hey, you can’t ask me that!
Interviewer: You don’t look old enough to have held all those positions.
Interviewee: So, are you calling me a liar?
Interviewer: Kind of.
/[QUOTE]

Not exactly, Sheriff.

Isoguy's original post was "I was 6 hours into the second interview with this company and had talked with everyone I would be working with, then comes the HR Manager, what a pleasent "lady" she was. I had interviewed great with everyone else than it happens. I was accused of lying on my resume "There is no way someone your age could have done everything you have listed", (that really mad me ), but I camly asked what in particular she was questioning and again "there is no way you have done all the things you have listed" I again asked what she was questioning, "the experience you have listed is a lie",

2nd interview. 6th hour. Interviewed great with everyone else. Then this happens. She calls me a liar 3 times. She is 100% wrong.

Again, to each his/her own, if you wanna waltz out and just forget it, that's fine and your business, it just isn't what I would do. And I woulda bet that you wouldn't have, either. Guess I woulda bet wrong. :agree:

I am not the first nor will I be the last person to be accused of lying or misrepresenting myself on my resume. It is a fact of life "you are too young to have done that" maybe my response should have been "yes I am very motivated, I feel that one can never learn enough. I apologize if my accomplishments make you feel threatened." and then finish the interview and wait to see if they offer me the job then reject it and then tell them why. I guess that would have been a good solution, but hey you live and you learn right?

I am not the first nor will I be the last person to be accused of lying or misrepresenting myself on my resume. It is a fact of life "you are too young to have done that" maybe my response should have been "yes I am very motivated, I feel that one can never learn enough. I apologize if my accomplishments make you feel threatened." and then finish the interview and wait to see if they offer me the job then reject it and then tell them why. I guess that would have been a good solution, but hey you live and you learn right?You are not being criticized by any of us here, IMO, as I reread all the posts.
The value of a Forum like The Cove is that we can aggregate the experience of many and learn to choose a path that fits when we come across a similar situation. Your candor in retelling the tale helps us all get a better sense of where WE fit in the universe.

Obviously, from the comments, some of us have been on the dirty end of the stick in similar circumstances and paid a bitter price. (I've been witness in my time to vindictive "blacklisting" of people who spoke out, trying to do the right thing. That doesn't make it a rule of thumb that it will always happen that a person who stands up for dignity and fair play will be slapped down.) I was one of the bystanders who did nothing, then. I hope I can do something if it occurs again.

For the rest of us:
If you saw the Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart, about William Wallace, how did you feel during the torture scene near the end of the movie? Did you feel it was wrong and terrible and personally uncomfortable like the crowd in the scene? Or did you say, "Hey! Those people should just go along! Wallace should tell the torturer what he wants to hear."?

In the end, it's all about whether we can look in the mirror at the end of the day and like what we see.

You are not being criticized by any of us here, IMO, as I reread all the posts.
The value of a Forum like The Cove is that we can aggregate the experience of many and learn to choose a path that fits when we come across a similar situation. Your candor in retelling the tale helps us all get a better sense of where WE fit in the universe.


In the end, it's all about whether we can look in the mirror at the end of the day and like what we see.


Wes- nope don't feel like I am being criticized at all. I am not sure about your last comment, if that is directed at me I certianly think it is uncalled for, if it is not directed at me then no hard feelings.

I realize that we are all different and will not handle the same situation in the same way, that is also a fact of life. Like I said before was my way better than yours, I don't think so, however, it was the way I decided to handel it. That is all I was saying. :truce:

Obviously, from the comments, some of us have been on the dirty end of the stick in similar circumstances and paid a bitter price. (I've been witness in my time to vindictive "blacklisting" of people who spoke out, trying to do the right thing. That doesn't make it a rule of thumb that it will always happen that a person who stands up for dignity and fair play will be slapped down.) I was one of the bystanders who did nothing, then. I hope I can do something if it occurs again.

And that's what I was alluding to. I too have seen it and been privvy to discussion about that person when they left the room. My silence was taken as agreement with the topic, even though it wasn't.

For the rest of us:
If you saw the Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart, about William Wallace, how did you feel during the torture scene near the end of the movie? Did you feel it was wrong and terrible and personally uncomfortable like the crowd in the scene? Or did you say, "Hey! Those people should just go along! Wallace should tell the torturer what he wants to hear."?
Wiilam was a dead duck no matter what he said. He knew it and the crowd knew it. Those who may have believed that he would be spared if he "fessed up" were naive and today we like to call them "team players". ;)

In the end, it's all about whether we can look in the mirror at the end of the day and like what we see.
True, but even the Torturer has a mirror and loves the image. My mirror may show a person who just got shafted and I might not like what I see. :bonk: My mirror might show me inspecting my camouflage face paint prior to conducting my own type of interview with that HR person.

I was interviewing in Chicago after being vetted by a recruiter. Conversations with prospective bosses and coworkers went extremely well and the business was a good fit, and the money was well worth the move. I was filling out the HR required "personality test" when the HR Mgr. came in, asked me to give her the forms and then informed me the interview was over. I asked why. She responded along the lines of "it's just over". I got the bum rush for the door. Luckily, the hiring manager was milling about near the exit. He told me that HR had determined that I did not actually have a BSEE from Purdue. I asked if the recruiter had not already confirmed my degree before sending plane tickets, he works for you, isn't he supposed to? Looks of "Hmmm, that's right! We didn't think of that." Call to recruiter. Conference call to Purdue registrar. Degree confirmed. Discovered HR person had rewritten my name and SSN rather than make a copy of the application and thus had not give the correct info to my alma mater. The personality tests were discarded and I was offered a job due to "grace under pressure", just what we need in a project manager. Turned it down, I don't need that.

I picked up a book, How Would You Move Mt. Fuji?: Microsoft's Cult of the Puzzle, William Poundstone, that contained a bunch of the "new style" interview questions.
Q: How would you move Mt. Fuji?
My A: What's the budget? :biglaugh: Smartmouth alternate: Where do ya want it?

Q: I am holding a 6 shot revolver to your head. 2 consecutive chambers of the 6 are loaded. I spun the cylinder and just pulled the trigger and it did not fire. I am going to pull the trigger again. Do you want me to pull the trigger immediately or spin the cylinder first?
My A: Are my hands and feet tied up?
Q: No, it's just a simulation. Why do you ask?
My A: Because if I'm not tied up, I'm going to break your right arm while removing the gun from your possesion and kicking you in the groin to keep you from firing again and for being dumb enough to put a gun to my head in an interview! :bonk:

Discovered HR person had rewritten my name and SSN rather than make a copy of the application and thus had not give the correct info to my alma mater.

How Would You Move Mt. Fuji?: Microsoft's Cult of the Puzzle, William Poundstone, that contained a bunch of the "new style" interview questions.
Q: How would you move Mt. Fuji?
My A: What's the budget? :biglaugh: Smartmouth alternate: Where do ya want it?:bonk:Don't you sometimes marvel at the fact the people who do these things and ask these questions are employed and have power over those who aren't? I guess I might have been in the Smartmouth category - I would have asked, "How far?" This is similar to a Zen koan (a riddle to which the answer produces enlightenment.) Here's a koan which reflects my attitude toward personality tests:
A disciple of the HR sect once came to to the QMaster as he was eating his
morning meal.

"I would like to give you this personality test", said the HR,
"because I want you to be happy."

The QMaster took the paper that was offered him and put it into the toaster,
saying: "I wish the toaster to be happy, too."

Rough time, for sure. Most of has had experiences like those yoy have spoken about. I for one do not think thst it would do that much good to talk to Top Management about your plight. Although most execs that really care would give you the benefit of the doubt and hear you out, they might be far and few between which means they couldn't care less and would view you as a whinner. The organization as a whole needs to be looked at. If in your estimation the organization seems to be run with a good bit of committment from senior management toward those of a lower state, then there might be the possiblilty of presenting your side to receptive ears. If there does not appear to be a well developed system of ETHICAL behavior within the company, then you will only be wasting your time and the time of those to whom you would eventually have to report.

I don't think that having a 'witness' would do much good in an organization that does not focus on ethics, since the witness will probably have to think about his/her own security in the establishment after you have brought them into the mix. Too, if you were to be successful in beating the HR Manager at his/her game, how will others view you during the course of your employment in the organization????

Tough, as well as rough...Kinda like the old saying in the oil field: "If it doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger." :vfunny:

I agree that the best path to take is to present a great face and ask why there might be any doubt concerning your qualifications and present the possibility of discussing the issue(s) further at that point. If the HR person is a pant load the discussion will not take place, if she/he is actually open minded, assuming there was a slip of the tongue, then a professional dialogue can take place. Jmho. :thedeal:

Must admit I haven't had time to read all the posts. It seems careers in Quality are very difficult. If something goes wrong then Quality is the blame. If Quality points out an "issue", then they are finger pointing. If nothing goes wrong then why do we need them, they aren't value added. ASQ need a CIP program, Certified Industrial Politician. I don't know why I keep persueing this field.

Just had a need to state the obvious. Energy, please let us know if we can help.

Good Luck Energy,

Tom

Must admit I haven't had time to read all the posts. It seems careers in Quality are very difficult. If something goes wrong then Quality is the blame. If Quality points out an "issue", then they are finger pointing. If nothing goes wrong then why do we need them, they aren't value added. ASQ need a CIP program, Certified Industrial Politician. I don't know why I keep persueing this field.
Just had a need to state the obvious. Energy, please let us know if we can help.
Good Luck Energy,
Tom

I pretty much left the field through no choice of my own. Honestly, other than a way of thinking, I don't miss it. No manure. Basic business practices. I participate here because I like rubbing foreheads with the cream of the crop. My advice is to never let your guard down. Never assume you can retire from this profession like a normal worker bee. There is a Boogy Man and you never know when he decides to pay a call. It was a rewarding 35+ years and I don't regret ending up in it. In the back of my mind, I always figured that it could happen. Particularly, when you end up working for someone who hasn't a clue what you do. I saw this coming, kind of. I had expressed concern to my son during a fishing trip. When I told him that I had to clean out my desk and vacate the premises, he said, "You knew it would happen. You said working for this guy was frightening because he hasn't a clue what people do." He had to remind me. :frust:
Good Luck. It's a great Profession, even though we scream at the injustices! :vfunny: ;)

Here's a thread that began long before I registered and ran over a year (December 2002 through January 2004.) Despite some detours, it deals primarily with the traumas of being laid off and struggling to get a new job in a tough economic climate.

We have several current threads going about job hunting and getting interviews along with packaging yourself via resumes and cover letters to present the best picture to a prospective employer.

I think it's worth the time to revisit this thread and see that being fired (no euphemisms here) is not unique. It happens to many people through no real fault of their own. Being fired means it's OK to feel sorry for yourself for a little while, but then you have to start work full time on the new job - "job hunting!" It's strictly commission, you don't get paid until you make a sale!

When you hunt for that job, make sure all your tools and weapons are in first rate shape. The most important tool is attitude! I'll be taking that topic up soon in the "gatekeeper" thread http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325

See my addition (in red) to the first post in this thread and reread this entire thread at your leisure. This entire thread is as pertinent today as the day it was first begun.