I have a real problem. The owner of our company does not allow me to implement any system or process if it is not born out of his mind. The talk is there, but not the action to commit resources to the implementation process.

I've been here six months with little or no success. Our pre-assessment is next week and we are going to get hit hard on NC's.

Any input I can give our owner. I've implemented ISO in 4 other companies in the past without this much hesistation from top management.

I feel like a puppet. HELP!
Your input is greatly appreciated.

Gaboring

If you can, be real with the owner and let him know of your concerns (openly and honestly). I'm assuming that he hired you based on your demonstrated experience, and you should be able to express clearly that your experience included much more support and commitment from senior management.

If you can't approach him in such a manner, make sure your resume is up to date (he'll need a scapegoat); unless he's willing to learn from the NR's that you're about to receive.

Sorry to hear about your problems gaboring,

I'm sure you're not the only one. Davids advice seems to be right on the button. I have nothing more to add.

/Claes

Stand up...hook up....shuffle to the door......jump right out and count to four......AIRBORNE!!!!!!!

Bail before you wind up like energy did

I can certainly understand your frustration but I don't think your boss would be spending the money on you if he didn't want you to get certified. If he felt he could do it alone, there would be no need for you.

This puts me in mind of what one of our presidents said - "I find you can get a lot done if you don't care who gets the credit".

Try talking with the boss in a development meeting. There is nothing like a brainstorming session to put out ideas. Maybe he will take part ownership of the final product. I ran into a similar block years ago when we tried to change some of the "old ways of doing things". Somebody, before you came along, worked hard on getting you to where you are right now and sometimes it is hard to let go of your baby.

Just a thought. Good luck and stick with it.

Dave

I ran into the same situation when I started here. I came from a different background than stamping and was viewed as not knowing the industry. What I found to work was to submit my ideas to the VP (my boss) and wait. It would be 2 to 3 weeks before anything happened but more often than not, he would roll out the change HE came up with. It worked for me because the department managers saw the change(s) as coming from the VP and not just the new-know-nothing QS guy. After our gap analysis supported most of what I was trying to do, they left me on my own for the most part.
It is frustrating, but they hired you for a purpose. As soon as you can find out why, the better. If it was to be the scape-goat, keep your resume' up to date and bail before the crash and burn.:frust:

he would roll out the change HE came up with
Do not understate this Randy. "Not invented here" syndrome is not exclusive to departments. Many individuals live by this as well. The trick is to convince them it IS their idea. I often use carefully guided questions to circle in on the idea, instead of giving the idea. Through wording the questions you can have them arrive at the right spot, and they think it is their idea!

I would like to thank everyone for their comments. We had our pre-assessment and got hit on many areas. After the Auditor left we have had many follow up meeting and the tide is beginning to turn. With the use of some of your suggestions things are beginning to roll.

I'm not certain that we can meet our registration goal of August 2003, but I'm going to give it my best shot. :frust: turning into:confused: requiring us to think and take a step back and create a better plan abd go;) ! We can do it.
Realistically!

Thanks again.

If you're not sure now, and if you are letting your doubts show, guess what? YOU LOSE!!!!!

If you're the MR your #1 job is to be a cheerleader for the QMS you're trying to put into place. I'll bet, based upon your comments, your advertising campaign is dismal to barely noticable.

Right now, today, put a banner over the entrance used by your employees that states "We're an ISO 9001 Company - We Just Need to Prove It"

Are you actually involving the entire population of your company? How about even the custodians?

Can you show where input from the average employee has been reviewed and put to use? If not, why not?

Is your IA program positive or negative? Is the focus of the IA program on identifying NC's or PA's? If the focus is on NC's, it's a negative, reactive program.....change it! Everything has to be perceived as positive and pro-active to get buy-in (including the Boss).

I'll stop...Just a couple of suggestions.

Hey!

I went through exactly what you went through. I came to this company with some ISO experiece and they had none. They asked me what they needed to do to set up the system. I told them and they didn't like it.

What to do? I did it anyway. They had tried for 3 years to get certified, had hired consultants the whole nine yards. Nothing. I came in, worked my magic certifed in 3 months. They were very pleased when they finally got certifed. I made everything very simple. They didn't want over the top which is what a lot of consultants tried to sell them. This is a very small family run business.

Kind of ballsy but if I know I'm right I don't mind sticking my neck out. I also had to pick and choose my battles. When they simply wouldn't budge but I knew it had to be done, I just did it anyway and figured they couldn't really give me slack if it worked out. It was mostly the head hancho that was difficult.

I'm still here and now have certified them to ISO 9000:2000. I guess I did ok.

Best of luck!!

FG

Fire Girl said:

What to do? I did it anyway. They had tried for 3 years to get certified, had hired consultants the whole nine yards. Nothing. I came in, worked my magic certifed in 3 months. I made everything very simple.

Kind of ballsy but if I know I'm right I don't mind sticking my neck out. I also had to pick and choose my battles. When they simply wouldn't budge but I knew it had to be done, I just did it anyway and figured they couldn't really give me slack if it worked out.

I'm still here and now have certified them to ISO 9000:2000. I guess I did ok.

FG

FG,

Count the "I"'s. :vfunny: Did your Registrar audit anybody but you or anything without you there to explain it or to guide them? That flies in the face of what Registration to ISO is supposed to be. As Randy has so humorously posted, I paid the price because I was not going to do the work that other Managers were tasked to complete. Purchasing Manager was responsible for Purchasing, Engineering Manager responsible for Engineering. A mistake? Absolutely, if fear of loss of employment is foremost in your mind. What the heck, an auditor wouldn't know the difference, would they? Obviously not. All of our Managers were given all the necessary information, generic examples and plenty of coaching. Nada. True the CEO blamed me, but where was my Top manager's commitment and yours and the understanding of what the standard required of them? True you got the certification and a job. But before you say "Just do it", circumstances may be a little different for others. Your statement "They wouldn't budge, so I did it" isn't something to be proud of considering the requirements of the standard, IMHO. But, you're right, you still have a job. ;) Sorry FG, but I just had to express my sorry opinion. We go back a ways but what's good for some geese isn't always good for all Ganders. :agree: :smokin:

Absolutely Energy - its been a long time since we agreed on something !

I dont want to wet on anyones parade here, and achieveing ISO9001:2000 certification by whatever means is worthy of credit, but in all honesty it is not that difficult to achieve if you know the tricks of the trade and a soft certification body (there are many to choose from).

What is infinately more difficult is running a QMS that has real top managment buy in, and achieves real value for the organisation is satisfying its customers today, and tomorrow.

Like energy said the fact that you have had to step in and do some of the donkey work that is rightfully the responsibility of others probably means your quality effort will have little or no real tangible benefit for the company in either satisfying customers or continual improvement.

Sorry to be a damp squib - again !

Energy.... we do go back a long ways...

Anyway, I didn't necessarily have the commitment of the head man, but I did get help from other employees and managers. This is a very small company (<25 people).

While there is supposed to be committment from Top Management, he just really doesn't want anything to do with whole system. Now I deal with the vice president and plant manager. I gave up on the president.

I still think the company gets stuff out of the system. We work through customer complaints and NCR's etc. Things are inspected, audits are conducted. Generally if I just sidestep the big guns when he disagrees he sees that it all works out in the end.

At the end of the day... I still think I am left with my integrity thank you.

FG

M Greenaway said:

Absolutely Energy - its been a long time since we agreed on something !



Martin,

I still believe in doing the bare minimum to obtain certification. But, we couldn't even achieve that. :bonk: It made no sense to me to "do it all", even if I could. Maybe I'm wrong, but I assumed that a good Auditor would sense that in a heartbeat. Particularly when others were asked to explain why they were doing what they were doing. I once said I would pay handsomely just to get Registered. But, that meant we would at least have the basics in place and that everybody would know the program. As Fire Girl said, nothing over the top. Simple. FG was able to pull it off and has every reason to be proud of the accomplishment. My point was, we shouldn't all be expected to do it all or alone. It's not legal :vfunny: But I am a little jealous because I'm not as good looking as her.;) :smokin:

Fire Girl said:

At the end of the day... I still think I am left with my integrity thank you.

FG

FG,

We must have both posting at the same time. Otherwise, I would have crafted my previous post a little different. Your integrity was never in question. You now say you had a lot of help from other Managers. You had indicated, previously that "you" did it and your post was titled "Just do it". So, I responded negatively to that idea. We couldn't come close to getting that kind of buy in. Like you, I did 80% of it. It wasn't enough. My Steering Committee was ineffective and comprised of Managers that felt that ISO was the only reason I was there. Plain and simple. They collectively decided, probably over cocktails, that pursuit of ISO Certification was a bad idea and so was I. :vfunny: Anyway, water under the ice! You also said your Company seems to get a "little" out of it. What does that mean? It still sounds like your Company may have caught a break from the Certification body. Count your blessings. Good job.:truce: :smokin:

FG,

After reading your clarification it sounds like you did the best you could under less than ideal circumstances. Like Energy, I initially was a little turned-off by your many "I" references (i.e. "I came in, worked my magic certifed in 3 months.) Surely you did not do it ALL yourself, and such an attitude would tend to drive-away potential supporters. But I understand a little better now, I think.

But the integrity issue is an important one. Like Energy said we shouldn't be expected to do it all ourself. But rarely is there a perfect job to be found, and most of us at one time or another find ourselves putting up with a bit more sh1t than we'd like to in the interest of keeping our jobs. Each person has to decide when it gets to be too much and bail-out. Trouble is, it can be real hard to find a safe place to land before jumping in today's economy.

While there is supposed to be committment from Top Management, he just really doesn't want anything to do with whole system.

FG your lucky you got a soft Registrar, and your auditors were probably mushy brained clods! If I were to be told that during an audit there would most likely be a severe lack of objective evidence of Top Management committment:vfunny: After playing 20 questions with the boss the chances of my being a happy camper would be slim to none.

As for the "I's" you used....this tells me that this is your system and not the organizations. The managers and employees helped some? Ain't no way on God's Green Earth that you could convince me that the system you describe is real and will function as designed and required. "I's" will not make an effective system (PERIOD)!!!!!! There is no "I" in TEAM. I've looked, I'm and educated man, I can't find 1 anywhere.

If your thr MR your supposed to be the primary motivator, the project manager, the cheerleader, not the primary doer. You're supposed to make things happen, not perform the tasks yourself. You've fallen into the trap and lucked out with your Registrar and auditors. A blind man can see it.

Ain't I nasty?;)

Randy said "There is no "I" in TEAM. I've looked, I'm and educated man, I can't find 1 anywhere".

No "I" in TEAM for sure. But there IS a 'me' if you look hard enough.

Agree with the rest of what you say, though.

Randy said:

FG your lucky you got a soft Registrar, and your auditors were probably mushy brained clods! If I were to be told that during an audit there would most likely be a severe lack of objective evidence of Top Management committment:vfunny: After playing 20 questions with the boss the chances of my being a happy camper would be slim to none.

Ain't I nasty?;)

As I seem to have started this sh1tstorm, let's go back a little. After reading FG's responses to the use of the word "I", the Head Honcho is the one who doesn't care about the system in FG's company. I remember in an old thread that Marc, Martin G and others said that auditing the CEO wasn't necessary to determine if a company is in compliance. So, if he/she appointed Top Managers to run the company and nobody was silly enough to tell you that the CEO/President doesn't give a rat's patooey, how would you know otherwise? Not even a mushy headed auditor would do that. FG never told the Registrar that she did it alone. She told US. When FG said "she" did it, it appears that "she" had to use her influence (good looks) to get it done because some Managers didn't care. Don't be so harsh, Nasty Man! :vfunny: Fire Girl, I feel real bad now. ;) :smokin:

Is there some crossed purposes here?

Randy is talking of an "effective system", but energy is talking only of "compliance".

Two different things? - maybe not even related? Just my thought.

Nosmo King said:

Is there some crossed purposes here?

Randy is talking of an "effective system", but energy is talking only of "compliance".

Two different things? - maybe not even related? Just my thought.

Nosmo,

Exactly right. Randy can't measure effectiveness of the system of any company, except his own. Just compliance. An auditor can try to make the case regarding ineffectiveness by citing non-compliances. If I set my goals and measurables and meet them, I'm effective. No Mushheaded auditor can say otherwise. ISO is no better or worse than many other standards and they were all about compliance. Effectiveness-smectiveness. That's my story and I'm sticking with it! Welcome to the Cove. Nice avitar! ;):smokin: Do you know Claes?:cool:

If I set my goals and measurables and meet them, I'm effective. No Mushheaded auditor can say otherwise.

energy, I'm not totally convinced that the two (meeting measurables and effectiveness) are absolutely connected. For example, when I implement my QMS, I perform a baseline and find that I am running 40% on-time deliveries. I set a goal of 100% on-time, and develop a plan to get me there. Six months go by and I'm now at 47%. Is my system ineffective? I think you can show effectiveness just by showing improvement in weak areas of the QMS. Now, can I have effectivenss even though my measurables are going the wrong way?

Perhaps as a mushhead (there we go with name calling again -- have you learned nothing!?), I'm being too literal. Oh no, I'm turning into an engineer!

Your right, I can't measure effectiveness and I don't think anybody else can either. Guess what? As a trained and experienced Auditor, I am required to determine effectiveness when I do an audit and make recommendations for or against registration.

How do I do this? Basically I call it a 'SWAG' (Scientific Wild Azz Guess). An auditor has to fall back on objective evidence and his/her own training, education and experience. And guess what else....That's just the way it is and there is no changing that.

As a trained and experienced Auditor

So, Randy are you admiting to being a Mushhead? :eek: :vfunny:

Seriously, I think that two things that would be hard for an auditor to determine is effectiveness, and "met with the aim of enhanding customer satisfaction". As a trained and experienced auditor, how do you determine if there is aim of enhancing customer satisfaction? I know this is sorta off topic, but it does fall into management commitment.

I think Nosmo was taking a shot at ole Energy for touting compliance and allied herself with Randy in the desire to have an effective QMS. Heck, everybody wants that. I'm merely saying compliance, first. If Firegirl had waited for an effective QMS, they maybe would be certified sometime in 2010. There are always those who look at those who have "Certification" as a goal as less than honest in this business. One of them just left the Cove for a better life. Ideals are great. Registration is better!:p :ko: :smokin:

I'm merely saying compliance, first.

I think this is rather important. Even if our goal is to have the best system, we first at least need to know what the rules are. Compliance does this. Can I measure effectiveness of a non-compliant system? Can I have compliance without effectiveness?

The goal should be not just effectiveness, but continual effectiveness, but compliance is the starting point. :agree:

As others have alluded to, I also think that effectiveness cannot be determined through what we traditionally consider an Internal Audit.

By effectiveness I am thinking the degree to which our processes meet our objectives, and lo and behold ISO9001 also has another section devoted to Monitoring and Measuring our processes - seperate to the Internal Audit process.

Can a Mushheaded auditor such as myself make a determination that the system they implemented is effective. You tell me from the example below:

A Bank that was audited in December of 2002 for ISO 9K2K was able to show that they went from less than 30% on time delivery to 90% ontime delivery in about a 6 month period. this happened becuase they implemented a system. In the past they had no system and low and behold when they put one in place look at the improvements that were made. Does that show the system they put in place was effective???? Just one story from a Mushheaded auditor. :vfunny:

As far as FG using I what is the big deal?? Didn't they hire her to help them get ISO certification?? I was hired to make sure we maintained our certification and guess what I I I I I I I (sorry about that my I button got stuck :vfunny: ) do a **** good job of making sure I give upeer mgmt all the information they need and tell them what they need to do. However, it is the people that (operators, technicians) that make the system work. :bigwave:

Some opinions..

1 M Greenaway is right in saying the internal audit is not the mechanism to measure or monitor effectiveness -- let alone the external audit.

2 ISO 9001:2000 lumps 'measuring' and 'monitoring' together (in the same way that its sad old predecessor ISO 900x:1994 used to lump together 'policy' and 'objectives' with disastrous consequences). Biut they are two different things: measurement is done where the work is done, monitoring is done by management processes.

3 Measuring the effectiveness of 'the system' is not the point - whatever ISO 9001 says. We want to measure the effectiveness of the BUSINESS

4 Effectiveness is measured by the degree to which the company meets its objectives. Or as yer man Jim Wade correctly claimed somewhere here, the degree to which it MISSES its objectives.

5 There is absolutely no prerequisite to comply with ISO 9001 in order to measure (to get facts) and to monitor how you're doing

BTW energy - you ask if Nosmo knows Claes. A confusion between Switzerland and Sweden perhaps? Never mind -- I always confuse Ohio and Iowa ;)

Tom Harris said:

BTW energy - you ask if Nosmo knows Claes. A confusion between Switzerland and Sweden perhaps? Never mind -- I always confuse Ohio and Iowa ;)

Good Golly Miss Molly,

You nailed me good, Tom. You mean there is a difference? Please help me understand. I now have to go to my room globe. I stand dejected. I must have been stoned! Mea Culpa! :bonk: :smokin:

Not to pick on energy, but...................................


(okay, to pick on energy)

energy once said he is getting so old he doesn't buy green bananas. Perhaps he has moved into a new phase. Now he doesn't read the entire word. Just the first couple of letters will do. That would expla in a lot! :biglaugh: :vfunny: (notice the smilies?)

To Everyone at the forum,

Well I must say that when it comes down to the wire, we did it. We pulled through our registration audit. We got hit on 7 items. Not bad considering during our preassessment we got hit for 17 items.

We got together the last 6 weeks and did a sort of triage meeting. We worked on stopping the bleeding before it became a hemorrage. The auditors were very good and thorough.

:bonk: Tis was my 4th registration, I must say it was the hardest. Yet it is the most gratifying and humbling.

I want to let all of you folks know that I really appreciate the input given here on the forum and to Marc for his positive attitude. You guys really helped me see through the forest. I'm really :) glad that I chose this profession.

Thanks,
Dan

Dan,
Congrats!!!!!
Keep up the good work!

CarolX

Well done Dan.

Dave

Retired Army Colonel David Hackworth, a well know military analyst on TV and columnist, recently wrote the following as part of his commentary about military leadership.

"Today, sadly, too many of our top brass like Myers are out of touch with the bottom – the root cause of most bad organizations. That’s because these above-the-fray commanders aren’t leaders, they’re well-educated, pass-the-buck managers whose bottom line is to avoid any blame."

The above can apply to the business community as well. To read the entire article just click on www.military.com and look for the Dave Hackworth editorial titled "Shoe Leather". The present article is about the alleged conditions that reservists that are sick are existing under at Ft. Stewart. I've been in the same buildings and they aren's really that bad all things considered. Col Hackworth also is giving more of of the truth than the media concerning this situation.

Randy,

Help me out here. Serious question. I thought posting links to political issues, making political comments, etc. was off base (no pun intended) these days. I realize one sentence of your post (The above can apply to the business community as well) made a reference to how the article and issue tied to business, but is that all one must do in order to post political issues? My slowly developing political issue sniffer is telling me I would have a real hard time commenting on your post, whether agreeing or disagreeing, without crossing that line. Is this just another case of me being (insert one of Marc's adjectives here)?

No intent towards anything political...the topic of this thread is revolving around commitment or the lack thereof and I was just supplying an illustration. I could have changed a word or two (maybe I should have) and taken credit for profound thinking, but I didn't. In the future I'll just be a tad dishonest by minor editing, take credit for my wisdom, and let everyone think I'm the best thing since a twist off top on a beer bottle. Thanks for keeping me on my toes, and if necessary I will delete the post or one of the other moderators can with no hard feelings from me.