I want to apologize if this is not the forum for this topic but I wasn't exactly sure where to ask this.

I have a customer that is requiring an expiration date on my QS9000 Certification. She is telling me that I should receive a new cert each year with an expiration date on the cert and that her procedure for approved suppliers requires this expiration date on the cert. I faxed a letter to her from our registrar stating that I was current showing my last audit from Jan 2003 and when my next audit was scheduled.

This still does not satisfy her requirements.

I guess my main question is, Is it normal for Certifications to have expiration dates on them?

Thanks

Charles

Mine does Charles - QS is a 3 year certificate but maybe because QS goes away in 2003 they have re-designed the certificates. Each one is designed by the registrar so I guess it is possible your's is different.

Dave

We're no longer "QS" (we did have one on that certificate) but our "TS" certificate has an expiration date.

I don't understand your customer's demand. While I believe we do receive a new certificate yearly (or after each 6 month audit), nothing changes on the certificate (unless the company's scope might have been altered).

Bill

Hullo Charles and welcome to the Cove. :bigwave:

I'm not all that familiar with QS, so I'll skip that one, but:

Our ISO14001 certificate has an expiration date. It's valid for three years at the time.

Our ISO 9002 certificate on the other hand (Another registrar), does not have an expiration date. It's valid until further notice, and the validity can be verified by the registrar. I would in fact prefer it to have a stated expiration date because of all the endless explaining I have to do to customers who just like in your case have a hard time accepting that. They do accept it in the end but it costs me valuable time (groan...).

/Claes

I've had the same certification hanging on my wall since July 2000 when we became certified. Up until now, there have been no real problems with this cert. Now a customer that I've had for quite a while is stating that I need this expiration date. If you go to my registrar's page you can look up our company and see that it is current and still active. This along with the letter (mentioned in my original post) I would have though would be enough.

I mean, after all, she has this documentation for her proof of registration to an auditor. I just kinda feel like printing an expiration date on a piece of paper, copying the cert with this sliver of paper on it and faxing it just to get it over with. :vfunny:

Some CB's operate by issuing a certificate valid for three years. In this time they audit your entire system over 6 monthly visits in the three year period (a bit at a time). When the three years are up they do a 'renewal visit' where they look at the entire system again over a longer audit. This is my experience of LRQA and SGS Yarsley, who issue certificates with an expiration date.

Currently however we are certified by BSi, who operate a system of 'continuous' assessment. No three year renewel but ongoing assessment, and a cert with no expiration date (QS and ISO9001).

Good point Martin - If some still do that, there may be confusion over the recent interpretation by IASG (or was it RAB) that instructed registrars not to allow any "roll-over" certifications. They stated a "re-assessment" audit was required at the end of the 3 year period.

Maybe this is where the customer is coming from.

Dave

I believe all QS/ISO 9000:1996 certificates expire on 12/15/03 when ISO 9K:96 is gone. At that time the 2 certs (ISO9K2K and QS) will be split.
Our registrar operates under the 3 year renewal as mentioned by Martin but our ISO-14001 has an expiration date in 2005.

M Greenaway said:

Some CB's operate by issuing a certificate valid for three years. In this time they audit your entire system over 6 monthly visits in the three year period (a bit at a time). When the three years are up they do a 'renewal visit' where they look at the entire system again over a longer audit. This is my experience of LRQA and SGS Yarsley, who issue certificates with an expiration date.

Currently however we are certified by BSi, who operate a system of 'continuous' assessment. No three year renewel but ongoing assessment, and a cert with no expiration date (QS and ISO9001).

Martin,

The 3 year validity and renewal visit is something that is required by UKAS and many other accreditation bodies. RAB does not agree with the IAF (sort of the UN for accreditation bodies, I guess you could say) on the requirement for a 3 year reassessment to be done all at one visit and allows for the sort of continuous ("rolling") assessment you describe BSI as using. LRQA also uses continuous, as do other registrars.

The QS9000 certifications issued by LRQA are continuous, being issued under the RAB accreditation. However, those certificates still carry an expiration date. There is still a requirement to conduct a full reassessment of the management system whether it is a continuous or a standard certification- it is only the way those reassessments are done that is different.

The expiration date on a certificate is a clear indication to anyone reviewing the certificate where the company is within the surveillance/reassessment program. A certificate lacking an expiration date doesn't provide this information. I can see where Charlie's client is coming from.

Lucinda

I can only comment on what I have seen. When under a 3 year re-assessment type audit plan, via LRQA and SGS Yarsley, the certificate had an expiration date. Currently under a continuous assessment plan, via BSi, the cert does not have an expiration date.

Not to say the audit plan and certificate format are necessarily linked, but under continuous assessment there would be no expiration date in reality would there ?

Martin,

I as well can only comment on what I've seen. As I stated previously, not all LRQA certifications were traditional - the QS ones were all done under a continuous scheme. In fact, any certification that was done under RAB, and RAB only, could have the continuous approval option. Few clients chose it because it resulted in savings for only the smallest of companies and it was not aggressively marketed because it was a pill to administer.

And yes, one could make a point that there is an "expiration" of the previous three year certification period. The three year certification period is a requirement; what is not a requirement (by RAB) is that it has to be done at one visit. The continuous surveillance/approval option simply adds additional time to each surveillance visit in order to "re-assess" one sixth of the system. In this way, after three years and 6 visits, the system is said to have undergone not only routine surveillance but also an entire reassessment.

The expiration date on the certificate then indicates the beginning and ending of each three year certification period. Which is the proper way to do it IMHO and as others have pointed out, less confusing and bothersome to outside parties. Registrars who try to save a little cash by not sending fresh certificates every three years aren't doing their customers any favors.

Back to Charlie's question: QS approvals fell under the continuous approval scheme no matter which registrar performed the work. There are a couple of registrars that don't put expiration dates on any of their certs, whether they are continuous approval or traditional surveillance. This can obviously be a problem to the consumer and is also a problem to other registrars when the approval is switched. (come to think of it, maybe that's why they do it!:)

Lucinda,

You are correct. The continuous certification scheme is just a gimick in order to minimize certified organiations to shop around for another registrar. The time of the certificate expiration normally triggers certified companies to "shop around" . . .

But you are incorrect about the recertification audit being dispersed in the surveillance audits. There is a RAB letter that I had attached to a message under the "3-year reassessment required thread" that makes it VERY clear that a "re-certification" audit IS MANDATORY by all Registrars accredited under an IAF endorsed AB. And extending the surveillance audits IS NOT acceptable.

The Cove system does not allow me to post the same document twice, so if anyone is interested in seeing that RAB letter, they will have to go to the other thread.

Can anyone explain what the CB's do at the six monthly surveillance visits when auditing to a 3 yearly renewal plan ?

I thought this also was an assessment of a sixth of the system ?

If not what else is it an assessment of ? :confused:

Sidney Vianna said:
But you are incorrect about the recertification audit being dispersed in the surveillance audits. There is a RAB letter that I had attached to a message under the "3-year reassessment required thread" that makes it VERY clear that a "re-certification" audit IS MANDATORY by all Registrars accredited under an IAF endorsed AB. And extending the surveillance audits IS NOT acceptable.

The Cove system does not allow me to post the same document twice, so if anyone is interested in seeing that RAB letter, they will have to go to the other thread.

Sidney,

Then things changed in the two years after I left the registrar, because when I was there it was the way I described it. RAB had interpreted the reassessement requirement differently from the other members of IAF and allowed the continuous approval surveillance option. And continuous surveillances were definitely extended to allow for a partial reassessment at each surveillance visit. And it was for that reason that the technical paperwork had to be reviewed following each visit.

If it is different now, then it is different now. There were rumors back then that continous was going away, but QS required a continuous, so what was to be done? But if continuous approval has passed by the wayside, then no one has it and there is no justification for someone to have a cert with no expiration date.:confused:

Did I mention we currently have continuous assessment for QS9000, and our cert from BSi has no expiration date ?? :confused:

And by the time you sift through the muck and mire of standards, specification, accreditation specification and individual registrar interpretations you find that the only reason for a three certification is to guarantee the registrar picks up the next contract. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sounds more like it Sam ;)

M Greenaway said:

Did I mention we currently have continuous assessment for QS9000, and our cert from BSi has no expiration date ?? :confused:

Then I guess it didn't go away after all and it still continues the way I described it. So what is it that you are trying to tell us Sidney? :confused:

I believe the document is VERY clear. it CLEARLY states that a rte-assessment is MANDATORY.

It is mute however about certificate expiration dates.

Since this is an IAF policy, ALL accredited certificationuilt schemes must have a re-assessment built-in.

But Sydney, as Martin has said, he has the continuous surveillance option!

RAB was the last bastion for this option, and if they have abandoned it and joined up with the other members of the IAF, then is his registrar just in plain outright violation??

One point to consider - when the RAB registrars were instructed to no longer allow roll-over certifications and do an actual re-certification audit, they were asked to specify a "drop dead" date after which the new interpretation would take effect. To my understanding, most picked mid April because that was a suitable time frame in which to make all the changes. If the date on the certificate has not yet expired (3 years from issue) there may be no date of expiration on the old certificate. When they do their 3 year automatic renewal, they will get a new certificate showing the expiration date.

Right now there is probably a mix of the old and new certificates out there.

Dave

Ahh. Now that is something that makes sense. Thanks Dave.