Anyone heard of these yet? I haven't seen much discussion in this forum yet, but our registrar and others who have had the training are talking them up! The TS - 2nd edition training for registrars and internal auditors apparently stress these tools heavily. Has anyone developed your COPs yet with supporting turtle diagrams? Are you doing them for your registrar or letting your registrar do them themselves? I am just curious how this is being handled by our TS superstars out there!! (This TS stuff is starting to sound like the Animal Planet to me! Crocky!)

We have used the Turtle Diagrams to show people how different there understanding of desired inputs and required inputs are. It has helped.

I agree some of this sounds funny. If you have been around any kind of electrical troubleshooting you would recognize a bubble chart. Just another name for something developed a long long time ago. These charts would show you the desired a o'scope reading on the input side and the output side. As simple as it sounds if the input was good and output bad then there was an issue with the process or circuit.

Turtle diagrams are good when you want to show how 1 process affect the next downstream. Upstream has an idea of what the next op wants and puts it on the paper as their output. When compared to what the downstream op needs for input can be eye opening.

Once again, new name for old methods.

COP's, Turtle and octopus diagrams are methods used st the supplier auditor course as an aid in defining processes. They are not a requirement of TS2. However, some CB's are requiring the use of these methods, including some variations of their own.

COP's or customer oriented processes is nothing more than names of processes within your facility,1.e., market analysis, Design&development, Production.

The turtle diagram first developed by P. Crosby (1982) is used to identify the requirements of the process. For TS2 purposes it is used for gathering information about a process in order to perform an adequate audit. I have described this in depth in other posts.

The octopus was develped by Ford and is a circle with ten input and output loops around the perimeter. This helps in identifying COP's.

Here is how we often teach them. Each are methods of process mapping. The COPS and the turtle are one in the same, and I've added SIPOC.

Excellent db, and there is a bonus point for those that can spot the similarity with IDEF0.

We're struggling on COP's too. I got hold of a "Process Approach" audit worksheet, which apparently is taught in accreditation body training and is thought to be (once filled in) a good starter for sending info to the accreditors prior to the audit.

It has 8 columns and lists the COP, then the Support processes, then the management processes, then more columns for various stuff.

My question - has anyone got a completed one I could look at please, as even with the associated instructions I'm still not sure what info is needed.

Also, I tried to represent our processes and their associated linkages on paper and invented the "Four portions of spaghetti" diagram.

Cheers

Brian

Brian, Attached is a first cut of the form. This is specific to our process, however, I may still need to touch it up. Feedback is encouraged.

Thanks very much Sam, you're a star.


Brian

Sam, I finally got around to looking at your spreadsheet. In a different thread, we discussed the need to "map" processes, and how to meet the requirments without mapping. This looks like it can do the job nicely. It doesn't have the visual effect of a graphic, but I really like listing the QM and procedures. In fact, if this is kept electronically, you could hyperlink to the actual document.

Good job!

db, thanks for the feedback. This form is a modified version, by our CB, of the audit worksheet that was used at the AIAG supplier auditor class.

what exactly is these turtle and octopus diagram ? Tried to do a search in google on this and also the IATF April Rollout meeting, can't seems to find anything.

Anyone has a details write up on the 2 diagrams ? Saw it in the QSA Checklist for ISO/TS16949. saying that auditors have to look at the octopus model, but it is not a mandatory for the organization to comply to this.

Anyway, any help ?


Thanks

YKT, in my post of MArch 5th. I have an attachment that shows the three (Turtle, SIPOC and Octopus). Try that.

COPS = Customer Oriented Processes - Key internal processes
There are ten (10) primary:

Market Analysis
Bid/tender
Order Request
Product/process Design
Product/process Verification and Validation
Product Production
Delivery
Payment
Warranty/service
Post Sales/customer Feedback

YKT,
There has been a lot of information posted on this topic. I would suggest a search of this site.
If that doesn't help, I would suggest taking the AIAG supplier auditor course.

Thanks everyone. When I clicked on the Forum Search and keyed in the keyword as either 'Turtle' or 'Octopus'...it will land me in this topic only. It seems like this is the only discussion on the octopus / turtle diagram. Perhaps someone can shed a light on which keyword I should use.

Anyway, I've looked at the sample diagram posted, and to my understanding, (correct me if I'm wrong), Turtle Diagram and Octopus diagram are both recommneded methodologies to identify the COP, whereby Turtle diagram define the customer inputs is clearly defined and shown, together with the processes needed to 'realize' the product. On the right hand side will be the output which is measured against the customer requirements.

Octopus diagram actually maps the process interactions and sequence in a overall business manner, i.e. from market analysis right up to production, and finish with service. Each process shown with its linkages between the input and output.

Having said those, other process mapping ideologies, such as IDEFO can be utilised to replace these 2 diagrams, but still satisfying the process interaction, process sequence, and COPs.

Am I right ?

Am I right ?

To an extent you are. You must remember that there is no requirement for any process map. The map, be they turtles, SIPOC, or whatever, are just one method of meeting the requirements. Also, the diagrams are insufficient if you still do not understand your processes. ISO is not looking for an exercise in graphic depections. They want you to fully understand how your processes interelate and how they affect each other. A good process map is a start, but only a start.

YKT,
Ditto db. And EVIDENCE, in all processes, of conformance/compliance to customer specific requirements.

Currently we use the flow chart as attached.

Does it satisfy TS requirement?

Will very appreciate if you can share with me your flow chart.

Allenlee,
This appears to be a flow chart for reviewing customer specific requirements. Am I correct?
If so, as an auditor, would I expect to find an SWR for each CSR, including those listed in the 3rd Ed. PPAP?
This method would probably satisfy the reqquirement, but the results may get lost in the paperwork trail.

Ok, I've found the octopus and established my COPs and created Turtles for each of the COPs[processes]. My confusion really sets in when I look at the "materials/equipment" , 'competence, skill, training', 'methods/procedures/techniques' , and measurement/assessement' "legs". In the AIAG "Implementation Guidelines" book it shows the body of the turtle or the COP [process] as becoming the circle in the TS "model of a process-based quality management system" [i.e. mgmt resp, resource mgmt, product realization, meas/analysis/improv.]. Then I look at the "Process Approach Audit Worksheet" and it identifies 3 columns labeled, "managment process", "organization location (physical and organizational)", and "expected or required key indicators, measurements'. How do all of these relate to each other or do they? [sorry for the length]

Method is only tools. you could select your favorites. For a company, it does not only exist COP(customer oriented process) but also SOP(supported oriented process) & MOP(management oriented process). Somebody like this classification. In TS standards, it said key product realization process and support processes.
But doesn't matter, It was just "name".
Important thing is to identify what processes in your company. How management consdier their organisation purpose,quality policy,quality objectives and how they plan their product realization process and how they provide resourse. these would be help to identify interaction/consequence.

Octopus was used to identify process between customer & company (mainly for COP).
Turtles could be used for any identified process. Process owner, input/output/, how the resourse provided and how to control. The most important would be how do you measure the process performance(effectiveness/efficiency).

As human beens we face everyday the attack of spectacular news, opinions and a very special topic: "fashion".
I think in our field (bussines/quality) we are also facing/receiving opinions (most of them well intended, but sometimes missinformed). Some companies even use quality systems because is the new fashion instead of take advantage of it.

My comment tries to focus in the topic of "Process Approach or focus". Some of us have been very concerned in the last 3 years about the best (perfect?) way to convince or demonstrate the registrar that my Quality System is "in" or occording with the new fashion, and during that desperate effort we access hundreds of books, websites, etc. to know what is the best method to comply (conform) the ISOTS or 2K Standards.
IMHO, and my experience we need first of all to be calmed and try to understand the Process Focus in the simplest way possible :
1.- Let us go to 4.1 of the standard:

a) Identify the process in your business---Make a simple list of them. In addition identify what will you need to make the process to transform succesfully the process inputs in outputs to satisfy your process customer. That will include the What will you need, How will make it, How to make it, How many (measurements). All this could be made in an easy way using the so called "turtle diagram"

b) Determine the sequence of that Processes--- This can be made in several forms, but the more practical is to draw a diagram, make a process map, etc. the simplest possible.Sometimes we get lost in this step trying to make a sophisticated superstructure of maps and links.

c) Determine criteria and methods needed.....If you made properly your turtle you can cover this paragraph.

Making well the above you could cover also 0.2 Process Approach

What about Octupus, COPs, MOPs, etc., ?

well, I understand 4 types of processes: a)Realization, b)Support, c)ISO and d)Business (Management). MOPs are type "d", Octupus can be used to identify COPs and the COPs are as a matter of fact type "a"

Another opinions are welcome

Qualiman

Dear Sam,

Thank u so much for yr generous sharing of knowledge!!!!!

pinpin

Brian, Attached is a first cut of the form. This is specific to our process, however, I may still need to touch it up. Feedback is encouraged.

Sam,

thanks for your information,
one question I want to know , Does this COP table be review on regularly meeting ?review the indicator(measure) by management level ?
I don't know the COP well, expect you can solve my question.

Thanks a lot !

Paul

Hi,
The table has since been made into flow chart format for easier flow. To answer your question; yes, the measures are reviewed monthly by all managers, including upper level management. We have also included our environmental measures.
We have 50 measurables, all in chart format that we review. Time for review is approximately 30-45 minutes, unless there are problem areas that need further discussion. We also post the charts for em[loyees to review.
Hope this answers your question.