What are your thoughts?

I have auditors saying we need to make weekly personnel timesheets/overtime sheets a controlled document. What are your thoughts? Can you point me to the correct clause/element in the ISO or QS 9000 standard. Has anyone else ever come across this...how did you argue that it was not required. Thanks!

Hi Val, and welcome to the Cove. :bigwave:

No, this is a new one to me... But if I ever come across it I'll reserve a minute for laughing my head off and then point at clause 4.2.1 d & e and 4.2.4 in ISO 9001:2000 and ask where it says that I have to make that a controlled document. :biglaugh:

As for QS 9000, I couldn't say. Anyone?

/Claes

mmmm, Welcome Val!

Controlled timesheets - I think this falls under the regulatory and statutory requirements. Do the forms need to be controlled? No, I don't think so, we have made multiple changes to time sheets, and now we do them electronically. Do completed timesheets need to be preserved? Definitely, you need to hang on to them little suckers in case there is ever some sort of employee grievance/labor dispute. Not sure how long, but your HR/financial people should know that.

I worked my way through college working for a construction company, we wrote our time on anything that was handy, toilet paper and lipstick works:eek: The problem is in the storage/retention and whatever you say you will do in your QMS.

Have a good one!

I agree with steelmaiden and add; this is an other way to monitor project cost and cost of poor quality. Also if you have ever worked for a government authoriyty you will realize how important it is to maintain records of hour charged.

Val said:

What are your thoughts?

I have auditors saying we need to make weekly personnel timesheets/overtime sheets a controlled document. What are your thoughts? Can you point me to the correct clause/element in the ISO or QS 9000 standard. Has anyone else ever come across this...how did you argue that it was not required. Thanks!


I just saw your question. I have come up with the following :

1. Check your procedures for refrences to time cards.Some companies use them as training records etc.

2. How do you argue a finding...have the auditor point it out at the closing or at the time the N/C is written. The auditor should of refrenced the element number ..any ways.

Do timecards have any affect on process quality? NO

Are time cards controlled by a company? SURE, but only as they have to by governmental regulations that have nothing to do with manufacturing processes and quality. Not by QS/ISO/TS.

What kind of administrative morass would controlling time cards be? INSURMOUNTABLE

Do employees care abouty control of their timecards? NO, as long as they get paid the hours they work. (boy, they know when they have been shortchanged)

Are we going to control:

-Employee files that are proprietary? For Gov. Regs. SURE--For ISO/QS/TS NO!!!!!!!!!

-Petty cash?

-Vacation records?

Let's all be real and know that only documents that affect processes that satisfy the customer are to be controlled.

Just my view!


:)

pancreas said:
---X---
Just my view!

:)

And mine... but you explained it better than I did. :agree:

/Claes

Some time cards may contain references to project/job/task numbers that an employee work on/at, and may be used to show proof of or lack of resource allocation.

All the government contractor jobs I had required me to document how much time I spent performing specific tasks on specific work orders. You can review timesheets going back (for me anyway) to 1985 that record what helicopter I worked on, what task I did and how long I did it. The same holds true for when I went fulltime into EHS, Quality and everything else. This was all done under contractural requirement and for costing/production purposes.

As a consultant I keep timesheets that record similar information. If I were to implement a QMS this info would be necessary to support my product realization claims as well as resource allocation requirements among others.

The answer to this issue is dependent upon the organization and it requirements. Organizations that have employees that are required to perform multiple tasks would be greatly served by tracking more than time in/time out.

pancreas said:

Do timecards have any affect on process quality? NO

Are time cards controlled by a company? SURE, but only as they have to by governmental regulations that have nothing to do with manufacturing processes and quality. Not by QS/ISO/TS.

What kind of administrative morass would controlling time cards be? INSURMOUNTABLE

Do employees care abouty control of their timecards? NO, as long as they get paid the hours they work. (boy, they know when they have been shortchanged)

Are we going to control:

-Employee files that are proprietary? For Gov. Regs. SURE--For ISO/QS/TS NO!!!!!!!!!

-Petty cash?

-Vacation records?

Let's all be real and know that only documents that affect processes that satisfy the customer are to be controlled.

Just my view!


:)

Pancreas,
I understand your point. But realistically speaking we do not know what record in Val’s process effects quality. You must ask yourself..Why would the auditor be looking at time cards?