I know of a company that has just engaged a registrar that uses the European Model of registration. If I have my information correct, the assigned auditor is also your consultant. The Consultant goes over your quality manual and other documentation with you and makes corrections, once the documentation is satisfactory, the consultant works with you to make sure you are following your own documentation. At that point the auditor (same person) audits you.

Two questions: (well, actually three)

1) Is there such a thing as a European Model? If so, does this describe it?
2) How in the world does this meet Guide 62 (or what ever) requirements?

:confused:

Never heard of such thing. Could this have anything to do with the European Model for Quality Excellence? The Euro-version of the MBNQA?

As a model for quality management system certification, it does NOT abide by ISO Guide 62. No IAF Accreditation Body would allow for a model such as this under their auspices.

While I personally think that the model being used in the third-party certification/accreditation world needs updating, any approach which seems to present a conflict of interest will be seriously questionned . . .:eek:

The thing that concerns me is they have a registration mandate for the end of the year. Supposedly, the end result is registration to ISO 9001:2000. I will attmept to get the name of their "registrar". I think they are out of Ireland. Oh, how I hate forced registrations! :mad:

DB,

I think I ran into this company as a competitor about a year ago. They perform both the consulting and the registration audit. The catch is that they are NOT accredited by RAB (or anyone else). We lost a quote to them because they could do both for one fee. I believe the one I am thinking of was UK based - and had been under investigation in the UK for fraud.

I can't remember the name right now, but I will see if I can dig it up and send it over to you.

Tom

European Model, eh? Never heard of it... And I'm all european...

/Claes

Found the one I was thinking of: International Management Systems Marketing (http://www.imsm.co.uk)

International Management Systems, Inc. (a fully accredited registrar) had a note on their web page that they are in no way affiliated with IMSM.

I know I saw a longer article with the details of the UK investigation - may have been in Quality Systems Update. I am trying to do a northernlight search, but their search engine seems to be down right now.

Looks like they have US offices. I know they are (were) active in the Detroit area since we did compete with them on the one quote.

Tom

Maybe the popularity of the plan is because a real, flesh-and-blood European model does the "consulting" and "audit" for you. Sounds like a new wrinkle from an escort service who is looking for a way to help business exec's. get their "services" past the Accounting Department for reimbursement! ;)

On a serious note, it sounds like the company needs to do some more homework if they expect a legit and acceped ISO "certification" to come out of their efforts. But, if they only want to achieve "compliance", or the set-up of a basic QMS, maybe they will be happy with the results.

I will attmept to get the name of their "registrar". I think they are out of Ireland.

db, did you get the name? Are you willing to share?

Because I don't have all the information concerning what the "registrar" told this company, I really don't want to give away the name. It is possible, my contact might not have understood the process entirely. I will say however, that I had never heard of them before their name popped up in this thread.

db

Its a myth.

As others have alluded to my hunch is that this certification body is not UKAS approved, hence it can do what it likes, yet would have little perceived value in the market place - well amongst us quality nerds anyway !

There are a few out there that will post you a manual and a cert for a few hundred quid.

I ran across another one a while back while auditing a client's purchasing files. They had requested copies of certs from their critical suppliers. Something about one jumped out at me as strange. Can't remember who it was, but the first thing I noticed was that it was signed by the auditor. Also was not a "registrar" I had ever heard of and had no RAB accrediation mark. Told them it looked a little strange and they might want to dig a little more with their supplier.

Hello Tom,

found your internet-conversation dated april 2003 about an UK based "certification" frim named IMSM (International Management Systems Marketing)

You wrote: "I know I saw a longer article with the details of the UK investigation - may have been in Qualtiy Syltems Update".

I investigate this dobious letterbox firm and some of their criminal employees and "Managers" here in Germany - together with the Business-Crime-Control and the German CID.

IMSM is working as we say "like a pusher gang" (they walk from door to door) and "sell" their Manuals and Certification to everyone.

If you still have the idea where you have found the article about the investigation against IMSM I would be very pleased if cou would send this information to us here in Germany.

We try to kick this dubious letterbox firm out of the European marked, cause the damage they already made for the serious companies inside the QMS business is immense!

Thank you for your time and your interest in our case


best regards and greetings from Hamburg - Germany


Bernd Vogt



Dear

1) Is there such a thing as a European Model? If so, does this describe it?


http://www.efqm.org/ (European Foundation for Quality Management) just my two pennies

I need to choose my words carefully as there are some unaccredited certification bodies operating in the UK who have highly developed legal teams. First, let me say I know nothing about IMSM.

There are, as M Greenaway said, a number of unaccredited certification bodies who will offer you certification to ISO 9001.2000 (although I have seen ISO 9002.2000 also being offered), ISO 14001.2004, EFQM Business Excellence Model (to give it its full title) and/or any other kind of standard you can think of! Some (but not all) will also offer a consultancy service to develop the system and can even send a certificate through (together with a manual) by return of post (once the cheque has cleared). There are no statistics to show how many of these certification bodies are operating or how many clients they have.

Many customers are unaware of the difference between unaccredited and accredited registration. Some of these companies sell their services as equivalent to accredited certification and, as I said, there have been court cases and they are still trading.

I have a client who uses ISO 9001 registration as a condition for being on their approved supplier list and when I carried out an internal audit recently I pointed out that 2 companies had unaccredited certification. The person who maintains the list did not realize there was a difference.

Just trawling through the web and came across the following information. On IMSM's web site there was a lot of reference to QAS registration. So on the QAS web site there is a reference to "associate" companies
http://www.quality-assurance.com/associates.htm
and, lo, and behold IMSM appears. I am sure there is nothing untoward ....