I'm considering leaving the profession after 25 years experience working at every job position from inspector, layout/CMM operator, quality engineer and quality manager. My strengths are statistics, metrology, computers (especially Excel), training, gaging, and GD&T.

The problem is that I've lost my passion for it. Any suggestions for alternative work opportunities?

Thanks in advance.

Training, instructing, teaching, whatever you want to call it. I love it myself. Capitalize on what you know. There is a group nearby you that might be fun.

Check with Hampton Scott Tonk (goes by Scott) at Affiliated Educational Consultants, Ltd., Harwood Heights (Chicago area) Il, 60706, 708-867-5755

I second Randy's motion. I think that folks like you who have come up through the ranks can offer valuable insight to those in and out of the Quality field to understand quality concepts and activities.

Take a time-out, then see if you find your passion again.

Good luck Zeno!!

Kevin

Before completely leaving, one factor may be the industry that you are involved in. I had been in automotive quality for about 14 years and was totally burned out. Jobs at Burger King looked appealing! I said that if I ever got out I would never go back to automotive quality. :frust: I went into a quality manager role in a non-automotive industry and loved it! Of course that situation may have been unique, because I had the greatest support that I had ever experienced from Top Management. These guys really walked the talk. I had the opportunity to move into manufacturing management there and accepted the position. I also enjoyed it. So much of what I had learned in quality applied, plus I saw what it was like on the other side. Unfortunately, the business unit I was involved with was heavily dependent on the tech market, was shut down and I lost my job. But I am thankful for the experience and the opportunity to work with people who had vision, charisma, and backed you all the way.

Well, guess what I had to go back to? Never say never.

Proud Liberal,

I agree with Randy and Kevin. Use that Knowledge that you have accumulated to teach others. Write some cool QA programs in Excel. Us computer nerds are always on the look out for some cool tool to manage our data or make things easier.
I felt like leaving a few months back but then found this site and the people in it have really stimulated my thought processes and got me back on track. I don't feel as alone as I once did because now I know that there are a lot more QA professionals out there having the same problems and issues that I have but we can also share our highs here. This place is like Cheers....everone knows your name (corny but true).
I like the fact that I get feedback (Positive or otherwise is needed to evaluate my suggestions or work)

Take care

Greg B

I'm going to take a different tack. If you "lost your passion", then where does your "passion" lay? Several years ago, I left manufacturing because I lost interest. I got back into auto repair (what I grew up doing). I owned a shop, which lead to teaching auto mechanics, which lead to developing training programs, which lead to teaching quality, which lead back to manufacturing. Along the way, I gained not only valuable insight, but I regained the passion for manufacturing...but in a slightly different context.

Follow your passion.

How about CEO. Why not put someone in charge who has a real commitment to Quality. Toooooo many Accountants, not that you should not watch cash flow. Sound like a poll!!

Well, guess what I had to go back to? Never say never.

So, you went back. Good for you. I tried all those bridges and discovered that when you're gone, you're gone. As cordial as the departure was, the is very little concern for your plight after you have left. Working in the "Q" field since 1966, it was emotionally devastating to realize that your skills acquired were not as important as your age. Now, as an Office Manager for a small company, many of the disciplines learned in other positions have increased my value to this company. Enough to make a part-time position into a full-time one. Every successful company deals with all the issues discussed in the Cove, to a point. Quotations, Bills of materials, Purchase Orders, Customer Contact, Satisfaction Measurements, Scheduling, Accuracy Requirements, Equipment Maintenance, Profit Margins, etc., are every business' concerns. The big difference now is that instead of an Office Staff of 15-30, there is only 2. No room for daydreaming about effectiveness and other pie in the sky ideas afforded to those that are surrounded by a myriad of "Professionals". Effectiveness is measured in $$$. Period. Are we doing good? Improvements are made "on the fly" and tomorrow is another day. It took awhile to adjust, but, I'm coming around. I also have ample time during the work day to do what I enjoy. Visit the Forums. Behind every cloud................... ;) :smokin:

I have also worked my way up the ranks in the Quality field, inspector, chief inspector, QA Manager/Mgt.Rep. All in the automotive industry - primarily metal stamping, though I did a few short stints in other things. I started out in large production environments. When I got burnt out, I switched to automotive prototype sheetmetal. I found it much more interesting - but alas - within 5-6 years I had had enough of QA and the automotive industry. I now work as the Purchasing Agent in a machine detail shop. I am still the Management Rep though. When I found the ad in the paper it stated "ISO Manager w/ Purchasing. During the interview I related my meager purchasing experience - I ran the tool crib at one job in the past. :rolleyes:

I am so digging this arrangement. Now when the phone rings - it is usually a vendor trying to woo me, instead of a disgruntled customer. No one calls the QA Manager to say "Good job on those parts" (the plant managers get those calls!)

It also makes it easier on my relations in the shop. Now people are happy to see me - because it is not always a problem. I am the hero because I found their LH, oversized, blue diamond coated, metric tap and we can get it today!!

Feeling well burnt out I must admit :(

Have changed jobs many times of the years looking for that elusive company that 'takes quality seriously' - have failed to find it in all instances, from the small business to the multi-national.

Martin... We all feel a bit burned every now and then, I'll happily admit that. Just asking here, ok? Is it possible that you have been aiming a bit too high?

" that elusive company that 'takes quality seriously' " is hard to find, and I sometimes wonder if we expect too much? Your thoughts?

/Claes

IMO one of the biggest reasons for Q people burn out, especially in the automotive field, is how the customers treat you. They all want something different and even if you met all requirements and gave them the part for free they would complain.

But to respond to P_L's question: Share what you have learned.

Martin... We all feel a bit burned every now and then, I'll happily admit that. Just asking here, ok? Is it possible that you have been aiming a bit too high?

" that elusive company that 'takes quality seriously' " is hard to find, and I sometimes wonder if we expect too much? Your thoughts?

/Claes

Claes (and martin)

I thought about this post a little bit. I know there was a recent change in M's employment and then I saw his post. As a young man, emerging on the "Q" scene, I too experienced a lot of frustration dealing with just about everybody. I wanted this and that, but nobody seemed to listen. I'm not saying to give up. Just don't take it personal, or get used to intransigence(sp?). Not to worry. Time in this field will eventually do it for you. Until then, stay focused and don't get too frustrated when it gets blurred. :agree: :smokin:

Claes

Yes I think you are quite correct, I aim too high, I expect too much.

Is that part of the quality profession however, quest for improvement towards some kind of excellence - am I just in the wrong job as I take it far too seriously.

Also there is the human requirement to feel valued and wanted, and your days work has some use/value/recognition - I also dont get that feeling.

I feel like I am in a side show for the passing tourists, which is OK, but I would rather work in Disneyland if thats the case !

Claes

Yes I think you are quite correct, I aim too high, I expect too much.

Is that part of the quality profession however, quest for improvement towards some kind of excellence - am I just in the wrong job as I take it far too seriously.

Naaah. It's ok to strive towards something. In fact I think it's commendable. You do it, I do it, we all do it. It's just that every once in a while we will have to adapt our pace to the rest of the company. :agree:

I am used to getting what I want. I nearly always do, but sometimes it takes a while. Years in some cases. But never ever give up. ;)

/Claes

I am used to getting what I want. I nearly always do, but sometimes it takes a while. Years in some cases. But never ever give up. ;)

/Claes


Yes, Claes.

I, like all of us, get a little frustrated sometimes (OK, more than a little frustrated). When this happens, I try to look at where the company was when I (we) started looking at Quality, and where we are now.

Unfortunately, we have very few "eureka" moments in quality. Instead of being like TNT against a rock wall, we are like a constant stream of water, wearing the wall away. Its hard to see day to day improvement, and that is why I think the "burn out" factor is so great. That and the fact that sometimes the people we work with "just don't get it".

Martin, there is NOTHING wrong with high hopes. Sometimes they just take lots of time and effort to realize. Celebrate the small victories. They can add up.

Keep the faith

Craig

Claes

Yes I think you are quite correct, I aim too high, I expect too much.

Is that part of the quality profession however, quest for improvement towards some kind of excellence - am I just in the wrong job as I take it far too seriously.

Also there is the human requirement to feel valued and wanted, and your days work has some use/value/recognition - I also dont get that feeling.

I feel like I am in a side show for the passing tourists, which is OK, but I would rather work in Disneyland if thats the case !

Martin, I think you are wasting your time and talents working for others!
(JMHO, if you don't mind please.)

Thanks Atul.

Its something I have been considering..........

The problem is that I've lost my passion for it. Any suggestions for alternative work opportunities?

Thanks in advance.

I've been giving a unique opportunity to run both production and quality. I was the quality manager, they fired the production manager and gave me both titles. I can tell you the days go fast, but it is so different because you get almost instant feedback about the type of job you are doing. If you can make that switch, or at least get involved, I highly recommend it.

Sometimes it takes years to get done what you neeed done, but in the end they usually do listen and go with. However, it does get old when no one acknowledges that you tried to get this fantastic idea implemented 2 years ago. But when it happens there is a sort of glow that occurs like yepp I told them so.

But the very thought of waiting years for a quiet 'yep I told you so' does not appeal to me at all !!

Anyway I apologise for being on a bit of a downer. Had some success on Friday however, the seeds of a 5S system that I have planted in some managers minds is gaining some momentum - if it all falls flat again I will be posting my depression to this forum soon :)

I've been with you on this Martin, frustrated with the pace of change, wondering why they can't see, "I'm not doing this just to bug you, I'm actually trying to help you do your job a little better", all of that.

I actually started the move to the dark side and set up a company, massaged a few contacts, but a series of events caused it to never quite launch. My wife becoming pregnant with our first was a big shot for a consistant weekly paypacket.:D

Anyway, I started to look at the issues of change management, and why it was that I could not get them to see the light rather than blaming them. I haven't found any solutions yet, but it has given me a new focus and energy to deal with things here. It speaks to things said by Kevin and, if I remember, Jim Wade that we as Quality Professionals need to work on our communication and sales skills.

James

Yes I have heard we need to be great sales people, to get this 'message' across - but to my mind that is just so so very wrong.

We should not be in the position of trying to convince people to do this, that or the other. The people we are trying to convince are senior managers, well paid, well educated (?), experienced (??) people - they should know.

What is this bizarre situation we are in where someone is employed on a large salary to manage a process/department, and a more junior member of staff is employed on a far lesser salary to show him how to do his job properly - that sucks !

Im not just griping about salary here.

In addition the department managers tend to have all the resources, and the quality 'department' can often be a one man band in a company up to around 200 in size (maybe more). The quality department cannot actually get on and do anything, they have to convince and cadjole others into action.

The whole thing is wrong.

In addition the department managers tend to have all the resources, and the quality 'department' can often be a one man band in a company up to around 200 in size (maybe more). The quality department cannot actually get on and do anything, they have to convince and cadjole others into action.

The whole thing is wrong.

Yes it is... no argument there, but it's what we have, so we may just as well do what we can with it.

/Claes

Claes

I sincerely envy those that are 'happy with their lot' - or put up with a bad situation because things could undoubtedly be much worse.

Accepting that thats the way it is may be good for you, and right in the long run for everyone, but I am not the sort of person who can just accept that.

Dont ask me why, some psychological analysis might reveal why, but my make up is not to just accept a bad situation.

Anyway, I started to look at the issues of change management, and why it was that I could not get them to see the light rather than blaming them. I haven't found any solutions yet, but it has given me a new focus and energy to deal with things here. It speaks to things said by Kevin and, if I remember, Jim Wade that we as Quality Professionals need to work on our communication and sales skills.

James,

Your attitude is admirable. If you can hold onto it when surrounded by a hypocritical group of management that SAY they completely understand and support Q initiatives, continual improvement (to "world class" level), statistical analysis, PDCA, etc. etc. (verbally and in writing) yet don't practice it in reality then you indeed have a strength of character I do not. I understand where Martin is coming from. I also understand we need to weigh all the options and do what we must based on all the factors. Sometimes that means to fight for what you know is right, sometimes it means to go with the flow until you find a better river. There are some truly hopeless cases.

Martin, what I'm trying to say is that I feel that those of us who 'get it' need to stop whinging about those that don't and throwing up our hands, and look at what we can to help them 'get it'. It's not just Senior Managers, CEO's etc - some lowely Quality Managers don't 'get it' either.

One thing that I'm learning about change management is that just because a new strategy, technology or innovation is "good" and has obvious advantages over some older strategy, method or process, that doesn't mean people and organisations will be automatically ready, willing and able to adopt and successfully employ these superior systems quickly and efficiently.

They have to be shown that the benfits are going to be big enough for them personally to take the effort to change. Notice that they have to see a personal benefit (money, prestige, reputation, moral righteousness, whatever, insert Maslow here), more efficient business processes won’t generally work here.

It is up to us as change agents, and the local experts, to engage this desire for change by showing them the benefits, for them. The difficulty is recognising that what motivates us does not necessarily do it for others. We may need to look at psychology, as well as marketing concepts to get our message across.

The more I get into this field, the more I wish I'd paid attention during Psych101 during my undergrad engineering days. It is truely a holistic field, this Quality thing.

Claes

Accepting that thats the way it is may be good for you, and right in the long run for everyone, but I am not the sort of person who can just accept that.

Dont ask me why, some psychological analysis might reveal why, but my make up is not to just accept a bad situation.

“You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.”

He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.”

Louis L’Amour

The Californios

As you once said to me during my whining, "Stop it. I think I'm going to cry." :eek: ;)

Claes

I sincerely envy those that are 'happy with their lot' - or put up with a bad situation because things could undoubtedly be much worse.

Accepting that thats the way it is may be good for you, and right in the long run for everyone, but I am not the sort of person who can just accept that.

Dont ask me why, some psychological analysis might reveal why, but my make up is not to just accept a bad situation.

Well now... Clearly, I'm not always happy with my lot, but I do (usually) put up with it for the simple reason that the alternative is worse: Giving up.... I hate doing that. That makes me feel like a loser, and let me tell you: I am an abysmally poor loser. Maybe we're not so different after all? ;)

Putting up with something however, is not to say that I accept a situation I don't like. I do my level best to change it in the direction I want. It's simply a matter of doing the best you can with the cards you are dealt.

/Claes

“You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.”

He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.”

Louis L’Amour

The Californios

As you once said to me during my whining, "Stop it. I think I'm going to cry." :eek: ;)


Ah, yes. The Sherrif quotes Louis L'Amour. Somehow I knew you liked those westerns!

Anyhow, what it comes down to, often, is that some people, especially some of those who have been around a while (please don't shoot) have been "set in their ways". Why? Heck, its worked so far, hasn't it?

That type of reasoning is based on one fatal assumption - the world around us is not changing. Fact is, those of us alive now have seen more change in our lifetimes than just about any generation before. Sure, we could talk about the industrial revolution, but look at how long that actually took.

We are all comfortable with what we find familiar. We fear the unknown. What we ask of our coworkers is to willingly enter the choas of change, and risk their comfort. How, then, do we do this?

We have to find a way to make the status quo uncomfortable.

Look at your company's competitive position (your upper managers should be doing this as well). Where are you weak (they should know this, too, but I wouldn't ask most of them directly)? How do you apply your hard-earned skills to help the company remedy this weakness, and how do you show the UMers that there is a problem (comfort eliminator) and that there is a solution? Show how the world has changed since the system/decision/whatever was created, and how the company must rise to meet the challenge.

What I think we as Q Pros fall into is sometimes looking too much at the big picture. How do we get our company to adopt six sigma/TQM/Deming/etc.? I think this is the wrong question. They don't have to know what to call it.

Where can I apply what I know, to help?

Sorry for the rant.

Craig

Anyway, I started to look at the issues of change management, and why it was that I could not get them to see the light rather than blaming them.

Perhaps this is the reason there are so many people that are unhappy with their "careers" or in most cases "jobs". We tend to put the emphasis on the "I" word.
Converting management is like converting the addict; first "they" not "I" must recognise there is a problem. That normally happens when they hit bottom. Then "they" with the help of "I" must adopt a program,i.e, twelve step, and work it one day at a time.
The programs to help are endless. Two tried and proven methods are; Crosbys' 14 step and Demings 14 step.
I guess management needs the two extra steps. :rolleyes:

I guess management needs the two extra steps. :rolleyes:

ROFLMAO....One of the clerks just walked down the hall to see what was soo funny!

Good rant... er, I mean points Craig.

/Claes

We have to find a way to make the status quo uncomfortable.

What I think we as Q Pros fall into is sometimes looking too much at the big picture. How do we get our company to adopt six sigma/TQM/Deming/etc.? I think this is the wrong question. They don't have to know what to call it.

Craig

Ahhh...the big picture. That one. I totally agree with the wrong question aspect. I have experienced the "big picture" speech before. "Well, you don't understand the bigger picture and that's why it will not work around here. Why not broaden your horizons and think about other things than just "Quality?"." Yessiree, Boss, I'm a going! :confused:

But arent we employed to keep an eye on the bigger picture ?

Or just to maintain the current state ?

Im sure most of us have gained our current jobs by applying to adverts to join a wonderful forward thinking, progressive company that requires dynamic individuals that can lead change to world class blah blah blah. Yet five minutes after starting the job we are again banging our heads against brick walls as nobody wants or has time to do anything extra, different or that appears a risk - and have the gall to turn around and say why should we do that when we have always done it this way !!

All they want is to play the certification game, and do as little as possible other than creating a smoke screen of useless procedures, checklists and forms for everything they do, thinking that is what quality is all about.

Then a certification auditor comes in and passes the whole sham, which again reinforces their belief that the farce they are engaged in is an effective quality system, and your views are unnecessary (to say the least).

WOW! That was really well said. And unfortunately, the truth is your statement has really shown how much of my life I've wasted. It sure is good that my medications prevent me from acting upon my conclusions.

That job at the mall keeps looking better and better.

But arent we employed to keep an eye on the bigger picture ?

Or just to maintain the current state ?

Yet five minutes after starting the job we are again banging our heads against brick walls as nobody wants or has time to do anything extra, different or that appears a risk - and have the gall to turn around and say why should we do that when we have always done it this way !!

All they want is to play the certification game, and do as little as possible other than creating a smoke screen of useless procedures, checklists and forms for everything they do, thinking that is what quality is all about.

Then a certification auditor comes in and passes the whole sham, which again reinforces their belief that the farce they are engaged in is an effective quality system, and your views are unnecessary (to say the least).

Man, Martin, that's my "Q" life in a nutshell. Except for the certification auditor part. They canned me just before putting up the money for the scheduled pre-assessment. The official reason was that the CEO saw no ROI on ISO registration. Considering the timing, my salary elimination allowed his family to have a good Christmas and he got rid of a PIA. Keep the faith, Compadre. It doesn't get any better. ;) :smokin:

In all honesty energy your CEO was probably right.

There will be no return on investment on a system of needless documentation, as that is all that is needed for registration.

There would be ROI of implementing real quality practices, assuming of course that no real quality practices existed before - which considering a company has been around for a few years, satisfying many customers and gaining a reasonable profit, would be quite an assumption.

If ISO9001 certification stopped today 99% of us would be out of work tomorrow.

With mere ISO9001 certification as the driving force behind our profession/employment we really are stuffed, if we are the sort of person that needs to take some pride in their work.

I think I need to either look for a quality position in an non ISO9001 certified company (and one that has no intention of achieving it), or find another profession.

Proud liberal - you are not alone !

But arent we employed to keep an eye on the bigger picture ?

Or just to maintain the current state ?



Martin:

Ok, maybe "big picture" was a bad choice of words. What I was referring to is the approach we sometimes take where we worry about the "right" tool or philosophy that, IMO, freezes us like the deer in headlights, when the course of action is fairly clear.

Do I include ISO 9000 in the "freeze" mix? Sometimes, but I think if you look at the number of companies making at least some attempt at looking at their quality systems compared to those doing so before the widespread acceptance of ISO 9000, the standard has had a positive impact. The quality, if you will, of QMS's before ISO was likely better, where conscious effort was being expended, but there are more companies who are aware of the idea of a company wide QM system now, as a result of the standard, IMO.

Overall, ISO has had a positive impact, IMO. But, some companies do it well, and some not so well.

Craig