Folks

I am the Quality representative of a QS9000 accredited company. I have approached the MD for initiatives (strategic and tactical) leading to a cultular change within the organisation.


His reply was:

"You have Management who is very commited to quality and best practise and lean manufacturing principles.

Top Management - provides facilities, equipment and staff of a very high standard suitable to serve our industry and provide top KPI's including DIFOT and PPM targets. Top Management has achieved its targets, however, Top Management will need to ensure that middle management is commited and up to its task."

Middle Management - To establish suitable systems to achieve KPI's. To communicate culture and train/foster staff. This is still in its development stage and I (the MD) would like top see a lot more action and commitment on this.

Staff - Need to know KPI's, need to follow procedurtes and to operate within the culture and requirements of QS9000."



Note: we are just an SME with a workforce of less than 100.
I am so confused with this "direction" and for me it looks very much like he doesn't want to be involved in a change at all, eventhough this is required and recognised by all. I have reason to believe, he is passing the bucket as he clearly defines that I have to define the culture and drive it completely.

I am tempted to reply/discuss to his comments, however, I have no idea where to start.

What are your experiences? How would you deal with this?

Your valuable help is much appreciated. Thanks

Garry

I must admit that I'm confused by this as well - if I read it correctly, he is saying that top management has set the goals & direction for the company but that the emphasis needs to on middle management to drive the change through.

IMHO middle management will only drive change through if
a) they can clearly see the benefits
or
b) they are measured against the results

I would argue that top managment need to provide visible leadership & to be totally involved in pushing forward & cannot delegate this down to the "Quality Representative" - again IMHO the QR just wouldn't have the clout to make things happen. :bonk:

Quick thoughts here as I could go on for days. At least this "top mgmt team" doesnt give lip service---they tell ya they are not committed to the change from the start ! Well done gang !

The only times (and often) I have seen QMS's fail is due to a blatant lack of committment from the top. QMS's only become important when the heat gets turned up and then it's soon again a memory. Old school, stubborn, lazy, chicken--whatever the reason----When it is not embraced by the people in "charge" then saddle up for a bumpy ride----oh, and lots of fabricated C/A to ticked off customers. Can you say hi ppm's ? What a hapless bunch of cowards. JMHO. Have a day ! :frust:

Nobox,

Your atatched graph is one of the simplest, but most information-filled (and correct) that I have seen in a long while. I may just use that one in the future! :bigwave:

Thanks Mike S. In order for us Quality types to implement solutions, the fundamental defect must be identified. My data proves top mgmt is the overwhelming root cause of QMS failures. Why do we (we, as in business) make it so difficult ? Have a day !:cool:

Well said boxman,

Short, maybe not so sweet and perfectly to the point. :vfunny:

/Claes

Agree completely...however, how do you guys approach your bosses and how do you convert them, especially if they believe they have done everything to demonstrate commitment. I don't want to rest on an established root cause. I want to move forward and get them to acknowledge that they can not pass the bucket. How would you describe "visible leadership" :bonk:

Originally posted by Garry
---X---
I want to move forward and get them to acknowledge that they can not pass the bucket. How would you describe "visible leadership" :bonk:

Good input.

First of all we have to display good leadership ourselves.

We need to get them interested. In order to do that we need to show them where the money is. I know of no better way. Provide them with good data... Just facts, absolutley no whining... and always edge the money aspect in whenever possible.

Easier said than done, I know, but I've seen it work.

/Claes

Claes -

Well put!!

show them where the money is

That's easy said, yes. Since we are an organisation managed by results, you might understand that figures are fudged. Because people or departments lose status if they fail to reach the targets, they make it look like they are conforming. They are encouraged by the "system" to fudge, alter and/or just play the game and cut corners where ever possible. Guess who is also cutting corners?

It is very hard to collect data in such environment. Cost of Quality is one of the measurements, however, it all looks too good. Financial problems are apparent but this is expressed as a result of the current economy not as the result of the cost of non-quality elements.

The pinciples of Quality are not understood. Quality is seen as the term used for the end product as it gets shipped to the customer.

Noboxwine is right,

lots of fabricated C/A to ticked off customers

(I like this phrase)

I am still looking for the cookbook...

Originally posted by Claes Gefvenberg
Good input.

First of all we have to display good leadership ourselves.

We need to get them interested. In order to do that we need to show them where the money is. I know of no better way. Provide them with good data... Just facts, absolutley no whining... and always edge the money aspect in whenever possible.

Easier said than done, I know, but I've seen it work.

/Claes

(never resp for spelling errors, bty). More Good Dialogue Gang---and unfortunate results most of the time. e.g.---when sound data and a solution to improve quality and the bottom line is provided, in has been my experience that in most cases, not all, but most, top "mgmt" takes offense to the efforts--as if we are saying they are not doing their job. EVEN WHEN IT WILL MAKE LIFE BETTER FOR THEM, they take it as a personal slap in the face, as if we are telling them how to run their business. How sad it is that they resist change, add additional costs, turmoil, decrease quality & quality of life--all in exchange for a superficial ego boost. If that energy could be channeled into a cultural change, how fun it would driving in every morning !

Originally posted by noboxwine
---X---
If that energy could be channeled into a cultural change, how fun it would driving in every morning !

Exactly... Unfortunately that is easier said than done too, and I know how the head feels :frust: when you run into one wall after the other, but:

You need to find a key issue and exploit it. Surely one or a few of them must be easier to get across to than the rest? Can you for instance find one of them with a pet project in dire straits or some other soft spot? If you can help saving the day in some way you may find things improving fast.

It may also be a great idea to go to the marketing department and ask for their advice. We "quality types" are good at many things, but promoting the QMS and its benefits is not usuálly one of them. We need to sell our product just like everyone else.

/Claes

Hi,

At our last management review, we had lengthy discussions about commitment. Our Management are totally committed 110% to supporting and pushing forward our goal of iso2k.

We have organised a status meeting to show where we are up to with our transition, what we've done, and what we need to do in order to progress, also additional time/resources needed.

Out of 12 managers (this is Top and Middle management), only one middle manager has replied, saying he will attend, and that would only be if he couldn't organise some painful root canal work.

I think that the cost benefits approach is the only way to attack this, as they seem to be all talk, considering QA to be a hinderence, not a way to improve the business as a whole.

Do they want to change the way the company works for the better, improve systems, increase efficiency and reap the more profitable benefits of a slicker continually improving company,

or do they just want a certificate on the wall?

I think I know the answer. :frust:

I know that this has been brought up in another thread, but I can't help thinking that the TC-176 group could do us a great service by eliminating the word "quality" from the next version of ISO 9001. Call it a "Business Management Standard", or something to that effect, but clearly take the responsibility for its implementation off of the "quality guru" and place it where it belongs: company leadership.:thedeal:

Hi Steve, and welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

Well, I suppose we've all seen that kind of commitment from time to time... You're in good company.

David: You are right, but I don't suppose we'll see that happening anytime soon.

/Claes

Originally posted by Garry
I am the Quality representative of a QS9000 accredited company. I have approached the MD for initiatives (strategic and tactical) leading to a cultular change within the organisation.


Garry,

I hope this helps. I know from experience that people's unwillingness to change is probably the hardest thing we have to acheive in Quality (IMO) and if we can't change them how can we get a cultural change????

I made up the attached slide show presentation and it has gone down extremely well. Be prepared to have the next lesson ready to go while they are still aware and responsive. Quality Awareness, Process Improvement, Quality - General etc

If you have any questions send me a PM or email.

!!!I have just edited this as my previous attempt at inserting a thread failed dismally. So I'll have to do it the old fashioned way:
Look under: Gneral Quality & Environmental Topics> TQM-Total Quality Management>Teaching Quality and then find my post with the attachment called 'Apes and Culture"

Greg B

I can't help thinking that the TC-176 group could do us a great service by eliminating the word "quality" from the next version of ISO 9001.
I've been asking for that for 8 years now!!!!
A couple thoughts here:
It has been my experience with Upper Management that they want to see ideas and results. If you bring up a problem you best have an idea for a solution. Expecially when it comes to the QMS. I know this sounds too easy, but there is a catch. You have to allow them to think it is their idea that has solved the issue. Submit possible solutions and let them rip 'em up. I don't mean this in a patronizing sense.
I used this method for the better part of a year before "my" ideas were accepted. The big thing here is that the problem is documented. A graph, pareto chart, NC, etc. being presented at a meeting has always worked for me. As long as you have possible solutions.
Management bins QA as overhead, all they see is how many parts QA has rejected. So QA (and therefore "QUALITY") puts a spotlight on the problems BUT it takes upper and middle management to solve all the problems. When the Management Rep starts bringing in solutions and shows cost savings that person has now become someone they will listen too.

Originally posted by Garry
Folks

I am the Quality representative of a QS9000 accredited company. I have approached the MD for initiatives (strategic and tactical) leading to a cultular change within the organisation.


His reply was:

"You have Management who is very commited to quality and best practise and lean manufacturing principles.

Top Management - provides facilities, equipment and staff of a very high standard suitable to serve our industry and provide top KPI's including DIFOT and PPM targets. Top Management has achieved its targets, however, Top Management will need to ensure that middle management is commited and up to its task."

Middle Management - To establish suitable systems to achieve KPI's. To communicate culture and train/foster staff. This is still in its development stage and I (the MD) would like top see a lot more action and commitment on this.

Staff - Need to know KPI's, need to follow procedurtes and to operate within the culture and requirements of QS9000."



Note: we are just an SME with a workforce of less than 100.
I am so confused with this "direction" and for me it looks very much like he doesn't want to be involved in a change at all, eventhough this is required and recognised by all. I have reason to believe, he is passing the bucket as he clearly defines that I have to define the culture and drive it completely.

I am tempted to reply/discuss to his comments, however, I have no idea where to start.

What are your experiences? How would you deal with this?

Your valuable help is much appreciated. Thanks

Garry :rolleyes: :D

I have experience the same problems with Management Commitment to ISO. The Vice President of Production and Production Manager have stated there support for the Quality Management System, but in fact were in violation to our customer commitment and quality policy. I've known about it for awhile and had a hard time deciding how to bring this out to the organization. I utilized the internal audit program and documented the major findings. Let me just say the CEO was not happy with the Executive's lack of commitment. Since then, that VP has turned in his 2 weeks notice....and we are on our way to making improvements to the process.

jaygolfpar4

Welcome to the cove....
My MD is not interested in audits. First we had poor audit performance. Then with QS9000, we made major commitment and decided that all Management members contribute to the internal audits. The principle of ownership worked for a few months. With 1st surveillance audit, we were told that the schedule was very agressive and audits performed of excellent quality/value. The MD has interpreted this as being an overkill and since February (5 months) this year no one has done any internal audits (they all call it "lack of time"). Guess what, no one is even asking for it...not even the MD. They all fear, that Corrective Action Requests could spoil their day, so they can not be focused on $$$.

Garry

Originally posted by Garry
---X---The MD has interpreted this as being an overkill and since February (5 months) this year no one has done any internal audits (they all call it "lack of time"). Guess what, no one is even asking for it...not even the MD. They all fear, that Corrective Action Requests could spoil their day, so they can not be focused on $$$.

Garry

Ouch! :eek: That will be painful when the external auditors return for the next surveillance audit...

You know the drill:

-Would you show us the audit plan, please?
-Thank you. -And now the audit reports since our last visit, please?
-No audits? What do you mean, no audits? -uh, oh...

Time to :ca:

/Claes

Hi, Garry & All. Just found this thread. Ha, guess what? we've all been there, and most likely will be again, if we change employment. Don't know about any of you, but I have finally found one organization that in their root cause section of their corrective action system they have listed Management committment....Whew that was refreshing...springtime...and all such things ! !

There were a issues identified as such , and the senior management accepted responsibility for their actions, or rather inactions and their system really works exceptionally well due to this inclusion in the root cause.

I think a lot of organizations would just fold up into a fetal position if they had to include this in their system, since this oftem has to be provided to their customers. :cool:

I agree managements claim ( tend) to demonstrate commitment, without meaning that. The Boss says customer satisfaction is prime on his agenda, ( but today his priority is to meet his immediate goal / his pressing business need. So it goes on indefinitely.

In lighter vein, management commitment is not a pie for eating , it is a food for thought. keep thinking what the management says! They only mince words. These are not to digest.

food for thought

pthareja